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09-02-2002, 07:04 PM
I have read and heard very conflicting views on what happens to the elbow in the ideal stroke.

A common theory is that the elbow and everything above it should remain almost stationary so the forearm, and grip will work as a perfect pendulum pivoting from the elbow.

And yet when reading "Precision Pool" by Kanov & Stauch, they state on pg 24, "Follow through, dropping your elbow as you do, and let the cue do the rest of the work."

I can see how both methods will work, but am wondering if there are any opinions or consensus in this area. Has anyone gone from one method to the other and achieved a positive result?

09-02-2002, 07:08 PM
just play according to how you feel is right. i don't think there is any pro's and con's to which is which as long as you break and run out games.

Scott Lee
09-02-2002, 07:54 PM
CueBald...Well, since I am one of the foremost advocates of NOT dropping the elbow, I will bow in on this topic. Most top instructors do not advocate dropping the elbow. When you drop the elbow, you are initiating the movement of the stroke from the shoulder, rather than the elbow. This is not a pendulum swing, but rather something like a roundhouse swing. When you move the shoulder, you muscle the shot automatically, which gives different feedback on the results. Like I tell my students, you can make the shot, AND get position with a tight grip and muscled swing from the shoulder, but you don't get the same efficiency of movement that you achieve without dropping the elbow. In other words...the stroke in it's pure form is derived from "a beautiful forward throwing motion"...and uses the weight of the cue, plus a perfectly timed swing, connected with good followthrough. You get SO much more accuracy in striking the CB, and SO much more action on CB afterwards, when you do NOT drop the elbow, imo. Regardless of what some have said in print, most better pro players do NOT drop their elbow when they shoot (at least in the majority of shots). The stroke is a throwing motion, pure and simple. It is like an American military salute, only underhand. The arm opens out from the elbow, and closes to the body.

Scott Lee

Rich R.
09-03-2002, 05:21 AM
Scott, since my session with you I have been working on "not" dropping my elbow. Because I don't get the time to practice as much as I should, progress is slow, but I believe my stroke has improved. This, in turn, has improved the accuracy of my shooting. With the results I have seen in my own game, in a relatively short time, I have to agree that you should not drop the elbow.
Rich R.~~~not a world beeter, but improving, thanks to Scott.

Fred Agnir
09-03-2002, 06:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: CueBald:</font><hr> I have read and heard very conflicting views on what happens to the elbow in the ideal stroke.

A common theory is that the elbow and everything above it should remain almost stationary so the forearm, and grip will work as a perfect pendulum pivoting from the elbow.

And yet when reading "Precision Pool" by Kanov &amp; Stauch, they state on pg 24, "Follow through, dropping your elbow as you do, and let the cue do the rest of the work."

I can see how both methods will work, but am wondering if there are any opinions or consensus in this area. Has anyone gone from one method to the other and achieved a positive result?
<hr></blockquote>
My own experience is that I'm a natural elbow-dropper, but have found positive results with *not* dropping the elbow using techniques from BCA instruction.

I personally feel that the reason that some people simply cannot power draw (for the rare occassion that it is needed) is because they don't have enough speed into the shot. And, my body doesn't seem to allow that speed without more arm involved. That is, that's why I still incorporate an elbow drop. Maybe other people can get that speed with lower arm movement alone. I can't.

I suspect that even the top instructors when they are really in need to juice it up (again on that rare occurrence) do indeed drop their elbow. But, instruction needs to be centered around more repeatable and orthodox methods, which "elbow not dropping" fits in that category. In other words, most people will find more consistency in keeping the elbow from dropping.

Fred

bluewolf
09-03-2002, 07:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr> CueBald...Well, since I am one of the foremost advocates of NOT dropping the elbow, I will bow in on this topic. Most top instructors do not advocate dropping the elbow. When you drop the elbow, you are initiating the movement of the stroke from the shoulder, rather than the elbow. This is not a pendulum swing, but rather something like a roundhouse swing. When you move the shoulder, you muscle the shot automatically, which gives different feedback on the results. Like I tell my students, you can make the shot, AND get position with a tight grip and muscled swing from the shoulder, but you don't get the same efficiency of movement that you achieve without dropping the elbow. In other words...the stroke in it's pure form is derived from "a beautiful forward throwing motion"...and uses the weight of the cue, plus a perfectly timed swing, connected with good followthrough. You get SO much more accuracy in striking the CB, and SO much more action on CB afterwards, when you do NOT drop the elbow, imo. Regardless of what some have said in print, most better pro players do NOT drop their elbow when they shoot (at least in the majority of shots). The stroke is a throwing motion, pure and simple. It is like an American military salute, only underhand. The arm opens out from the elbow, and closes to the body.

Scott Lee <hr></blockquote>

i have seen some very good players who do not drop the elbow but drop it ever so slightly on the followthrough.imo, this seems to happen when they are bringing the pendulum arm forward a tad too much.

when i bend deeply at the knees (what scott refers to as not looking like a pool player)my upper arm is parallel to the floor without any effort and i have a pendulum swing and follow through without dropping the elbow. i can also get the different speeds on the ball from soft to hard.

when i raise up a little higher, i have to hold my tricep up to get it parallel and my arm gets tired. also my arm is more likely to drop on the followthrough.

going back into my old stance, as odd as it looks, gave me a near perfect stroke, followthrough with no elbow drop.

my bridge is also odd.i have a genetically acquired hand tremor which is either cp or parkinsons. i have had this since i was a child. so i am incapable physically of using my fingers for support on the open bridge. i have to use a fist and on higher shots,my nuckles.the closed bridge is kind of okay for me and scott worked with me some on that so it is better. but on hiked up shots i have to go to an open bridge supported by my nuckles.any bridge requiring me to support with fingers causes too much hand tremors.just a limitation that i have had to modify certain things.

i totally agree with scott that dropping the elbow in the stroke or followthrough is not good.i think modifiying the stance is preferable to comprimizing the stroke since the stroke is the cornerstone of the whole game.

bluewolf

bluewolf
09-03-2002, 07:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> just play according to how you feel is right. i don't think there is any pro's and con's to which is which as long as you break and run out games. <hr></blockquote>

respectfully disagree. i have seen sixes and apa sevens with a drop but there is a much higher level above an apa 7.without near perfect fundamentals, a person will plateau and not go any farther until they correct their stroke.

bluewolf

Fred Agnir
09-03-2002, 07:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bluewolf:</font><hr> without near perfect fundamentals, a person will plateau and not go any farther until they correct their stroke.<hr></blockquote>

I agree with this to a point, but (and there's always a 'but)...

I'm of the opinion that with perfect orthodox fundamentals, your game will plateau. But, that's pretty misleading for me to say, as many people (most people?) won't go anywhere without better fundamentals.

Fred &lt;~~~ pretty misleading

Rich R.
09-03-2002, 08:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bluewolf:</font><hr> without near perfect fundamentals, a person will plateau and not go any farther until they correct their stroke.

bluewolf <hr></blockquote>
I have to disagree with you Bluewolf. Although I believe "textbook perfect" is the way to go, there are exceptions. When you attend the U.S. Open, watch the pro players very carefully. Most have excellent machanics and are good examples of anything you have learned in books or videos. However, there are also many exceptions. These players play at very high levels and seem to break a few or more of the basic rules of good stroke. One player that comes to mind is Keith McKready. Although past his prime, he still plays at a very high level and seems to break most rules concerning good stroke. I'm sure there are many others. However, I would not recommend following the example of these players for some one learning. I believe the most important thing is to be consistent.
Rich R.

Jay M
09-03-2002, 08:38 AM
I agree totally with the "pinned" elbow method, however I don't use it myself. So I'm a hypocrite. I teach the pinned elbow when I am working with someone (I help people for free if they ask). When I shoot, I do drop my elbow, but I've been shooting like that for so long that it is my natural stroke. I believe firmly in the old maxim, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Sometimes though, you do have to step back and break bad habits to advance. For example, one of my strengths that is also a weakness is that I know the rails inside and out and have absolute confidence in my ability to control a "flying" cue ball.

I use the rails to get the angles rather than the speed. For me to try to do the old drill where you throw 15 balls out on the table and run them without touching a rail is nearly impossible, yet I have a high run of 187 (on an easy table against an easy opponent, but hey, it's still my high run) and an average, not counting first shot safeties, of about 15 or so. Will I change my game? Probably not. Would a change to my game raise my level of play a bit? Probably, but is the result of breaking the habit worth the time I'll spend on it? I'll just continue to play the way I do and put the time into consistency and maximizing my particular strengths.

The point that I am making is that rather than taking something that is effective for YOU and changing it, evaluate the benefit of the change and make a conscious decision on whether the change will accomplish whatever it is that you want to do.

Jay M

stickman
09-03-2002, 09:01 AM
I am an advocate of NOT dropping the elbow. I had shot with a dropping elbow for as long as I had shot pool, until my lessons with Scott, early this year. It has not been easy to change old habits, but it HAS improved my game. There are plenty of high level players that could be sited, that do drop the elbow. They have mastered the movements to perfection. It is much easier for me to try to master a simpler stroke with fewer moving parts. I have no problem drawing balls or even breaking this way, but then again, I have a very long pendulum. (6'6" and arms to match) LOL

Fran Crimi
09-03-2002, 09:38 AM
Quote: "Has anyone gone from one method to the other and achieved a positive result?"

Yes, I have. I used to be a strong advocate of not dropping your elbow. However, I now know that players who don't drop their elbow on certain shots are missing out on some amazing things they can achieve with the cue ball with very little effort.

Sure, you can run out most racks without dropping your elbow. In fact, you can play an entire set of 9-ball successfully without dropping.

But if you know what you're looking at, you can really start to see the benefits of the elbow drop in advanced play.

(Sorry Scott, that's just the way I feel. Hope you don't mind my contradicting your post...you're in the majority on this point, anyway. I'm the rebel. Ha!)

That's about all I'm willing to share on the topic for now.

Fran

TonyM
09-03-2002, 09:47 AM
If you watch most beginners, you will see that they generally drop their elbow to some degree or another. In this regard, I would conclude that the motion might be called "natural". However, there are other considerations. Consistency being perhaps the primary one.

When you drop the elbow, you must get both the motion of the elbow drop itself, and the time within the stroke where it occurs to happen concurrently. Thus it relies on an aspect of "timing".

The most common reason that I see for beginners not being able to draw a ball well is that they tend to drop their elbows before the tip strikes the ball. Thus they hit the cueball higher than they intended. This gets exasperated when they then aim lower as a result, and accidentally hit where they aimed and send the ball flying. So the next adjustment is to aim higher, and they never do get a good low hit on the ball.

If you watch most of the top pros, you might see that they actually have 2 types of elbow motions. One is where they drop the elbow very little. This is used on softer shots,and especially shots that are struck low. But on shots with more speed, almost all the pros drop their elbows to a certain degree (some drop it all the way so that their forearm is parallel to the cue!).

my accuracy at striking the cueball improved greatly when I began to limit my elbow movement. I keep it pretty still on most shots, but it does drop some on shots that require some power.

The simpler motion of keeping the elbow still is easier to keep consistent, than the more complicated motion involving multiple arm joints.

But it must be mentioned that the pendulum stroke is best achieved when the forearm is positioned close to vertical, relative to the cuestick. If the arm is well forward or behind this oistion, the cue will be movsing in a vertical direction (either down or up) when it strikes the cueball. This is certainly not ideal.

So if you do decide to adopt a stationary elbow, I suggest that you pay some attention to where you hold the cue, and your bridge length. These two features will basically determine the angle of your back arm.

Good luck!

Tony

09-03-2002, 10:01 AM

Q-guy
09-03-2002, 10:10 AM
How do you explain the Filipinos? Just kidding, now there is some wacky strokes. But seriously, fundamentals are guide lines. As you become a better player, you will develop a style of your own within what are common accepted set guide lines. There are rights and wrongs, but the parameters can be wide. In the end you will know what feels right to you.

bluewolf
09-03-2002, 10:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: whitewolf:</font><hr>Tony, this is a very good explanation. Bluewolf, this post answers some of your questions the best IMHO. <hr></blockquote>

i dont have any questions. as scott demonstrated,adequate power can be achieved without dropping the elbow.for me it is a matter of experimenting with other aspects without compromising the stroke. this sometimes requires experimentation and if someone comments that a certain thing is happening in my stroke, now that i know what it is supposed to be, it is a matter of adjusting other aspects so that the elbow doesnt drop.

bluewolf

bluewolf
09-03-2002, 10:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Quote: "Has anyone gone from one method to the other and achieved a positive result?"

Yes, I have. I used to be a strong advocate of not dropping your elbow. However, I now know that players who don't drop their elbow on certain shots are missing out on some amazing things they can achieve with the cue ball with very little effort.

Sure, you can run out most racks without dropping your elbow. In fact, you can play an entire set of 9-ball successfully without dropping.

But if you know what you're looking at, you can really start to see the benefits of the elbow drop in advanced play.

(Sorry Scott, that's just the way I feel. Hope you don't mind my contradicting your post...you're in the majority on this point, anyway. I'm the rebel. Ha!)

That's about all I'm willing to share on the topic for now.

Fran

Fran,

just what advanced stuff do you get by dropping the elbow that scott doesnt get by not dropping his?

bluewolf





<hr></blockquote>

Cueless Joey
09-03-2002, 10:25 AM
I watched Parica, Efren, Stalev and Davenport intently yesterday after reading this thread. They ALL dropped their elbows. Davenport who is probably the most mechanically sound player in the universe drops his elbow just a tad like Parica. Efren and Stalev ( Russian sensation) both drop their elbows a little more.

bluewolf
09-03-2002, 10:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Cueless Joey:</font><hr> I watched Parica, Efren, Stalev and Davenport intently yesterday after reading this thread. They ALL dropped their elbows. Davenport who is probably the most mechanically sound player in the universe drops his elbow just a tad like Parica. Efren and Stalev ( Russian sensation) both drop their elbows a little more. <hr></blockquote>

just because a pro does it doesnt make it right. every now and then someone will come up with something a little differnt and win. i have seen this in swimmers in the olympics. then all the other swimmers/pool players try to copy them.it doesnt work because it was that person's personal style. i could not shoot like kc or af. my arm would get too tired the way they jack it up.

i have a stance wihich is very atypical. i use it because it allows me to not drop my elbow and to follow through correctly.

the way scott taught me works for him and it works for me a little better than i was doing it, so ill stick with scotts way.

Why fix it if it isnt broke? well you shoot good the way you are doing it. how do you know you wouldnt shoot even better with scotts way?

bluewolf

Q-guy
09-03-2002, 10:37 AM
This is the problem, much of this stuff are just guide lines but not fast rules. This can be difficult for a beginner, they hear what they see as contradicting things from reliable sources. In their search for an absolute truth, they find there is not one. As a teacher, how do convey this to them?

bluewolf
09-03-2002, 11:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Q-guy:</font><hr> This is the problem, much of this stuff are just guide lines but not fast rules. This can be difficult for a beginner, they hear what they see as contradicting things from reliable sources. In their search for an absolute truth, they find there is not one. As a teacher, how do convey this to them? <hr></blockquote>

this is just me. when dealing with a beginner it is important to build their confidence.i think they need to be praised for small improvements and i think they need to hear way more compliments than corrections. i would go for the progress not perfection method. for instance, if their stroke is pretty good but not perfect, it can be refined as they improve and gain more confidence.

also i think it is important to focus on one thing at a time. i would not try to do their stroke, stance, bridge and eye movements all at the same time.

for instance, with my daughter in law, her stance was ok.it could have been better but was ok for a beginner.i gave her short straight in shots to the side pocket that she would make. i helped her on how to hold the cue. once she got that set, i would ve moved on to helping her with her stroke but aim for small improvements rather than the perfect stroke. as she gained more confidence, we could change her stance a little more,refine her stroke etc.. she left the session feeling good about her ability to learn pool, so she saw it as fun.

bluewolf

Fran Crimi
09-03-2002, 11:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Q-guy:</font><hr> This is the problem, much of this stuff are just guide lines but not fast rules. This can be difficult for a beginner, they hear what they see as contradicting things from reliable sources. In their search for an absolute truth, they find there is not one. As a teacher, how do convey this to them? <hr></blockquote>

It's tough. It really is. What I try to do is to break down the fundamentals into three classes: beginner, intermediate and advanced. Beginner starts with the simplest, most basic foundation, intermediate moves the player into beginning to understand the techinques of power and finess shots, and advanced involves techinques that allow the player the diversity to accomplish things that don't appear logical or even doable to the average player.

There are some fundamentals that remain consistent through all three levels, then there are others that would be best incorporated as the player becomes more proficient.

That's the best I can do for now when I explain this stuff to an eager student wanting to learn how to play like Reyes or Bustamante.

None of this stuff is engraved in stone, it's constantly changing and is a continuous work-in-progress for me, and there is the occasional beginning student who unknowingly, uses an advanced techinique. I may choose not to discourage or change that, since I know it will be beneficial to them later, and they seem to have no problem with it at this time. Then there is the student who is using an advanced technique but clearly isn't ready for it. In that case, I may encourage them to let it go for now.


Fran

phil in sofla
09-03-2002, 11:52 AM
When this topic has been discussed before on this board, posters mentioned that Hall of Famer after Hall of Famer, ranked pro after ranked pro, used the elbow drop at the end of their stroke, to one degree or another.

Lest this be thought some odd technique, like Willie Hoppe's unorthodox but not entirely uncommon sidearm stroking technique was, you have any number of authors in pool recommending it as a standard, even an absolutely necessary (Phil Capelle), part of a good stroke. Gerry Kanov mentions it in writing, Jeanette Lee does as well in her book, etc. (Phil was said to back off that claim, but now denies he ever changed, and by private message to me, says he still advocates it.)

Now, I guess there is no question that avoiding the elbow drop is simpler, mechanically, and thus maybe an easier technique for beginners to learn, and good enough to serve well into advanced play. However, allowing for all this to be true, still, does the elbow drop have a value, and is it really the 'best' way to stroke, as so many claim and use in practice?

Pointing to success with either method doesn't really prove the point either way. We have already stipulated that either technique can be made to work, and serves to play at a high level.

The real question, to me, is whether something best suited for beginning players continues to be the best choice once you've gotten to an intermediate or better level of play, or whether there is a nuance that can be added to good effect, one that you would never try to get a beginner to master.

I remain entirely undecided, but interested in the topic!

bluewolf
09-03-2002, 11:59 AM
i watch them on tv.imo most of them do weird stuff with their stroke.scott is advanced too and well you know how he does it.i bet he could beat any of the pros if he chose to go that route.

Q-guy
09-03-2002, 12:26 PM
Quote
----"just because a pro does it doesn't make it right."----
Quote
----"Why fix it if it isn't broke? well you shoot good the way you are doing it. how do you know you wouldn't shoot even better with Scotts way?"----

Actually top players at one time may have adhered to strict fundamentals. At a point though, they begin to playing the game at a higher level and doing things beyond what a beginner can understand, some of it seeming very unorthodox. They would not be better players going back to beginners fundamentals. In fact, it would inhibit their play. They have moved beyond all that. As a beginner you should learn the game as correctly as you can, but at a point you move on to really playing the game. In fact, if you saw Scott matched up and playing, you may be surprised the things he may do. There is so many little stroking movements, and subtle things that a player does, to make the cue ball do what he wants it to, yes, even dropping the elbow, you would be surprised. You are a very long way from understanding any of this. Most of it can't even be explained, not even by the player doing it. It is whole other level of play. It can't be taught, just admired. You are right though, just because you see a pro doing it, does not make it right when referring to a beginner.

09-03-2002, 12:43 PM
Fran -

I am wondering if you choose to drop the elbow on all shots or just some? I fins that my elbow drop is pretty constant on all shots, however, the amount that it drops is more or less depending on a number of factors, such as stroke length and stroke force.

Thanks for your contributions,,,

Rob

09-03-2002, 12:59 PM
You have certainly hit on a subtle but astoundingly important topic.

When I am having those days where I can do no right, it is almost always because I am doing one or both of two things:
1: Moving my upper arm during my stroke (moving my elbow).
2: Tightening and/or turning my wrist during the stoke.

The first one is the most severe and most common for me. Usually focusing on regaining control of my upper arm/elbow will start moving things in the right direction for me again.

I think it is important to make a distinction between different kinds of elbow movement during the stroke.

1: Actively pushing the upper arm down during the stoke, resulting in the whole arm being involved in the stroke.

2: Keeping the upper arm and elbow still during the stroke. At the VERY end of the stroke, the elbow will drop VERY slightly. One or two inches at most. This is NOT the result of muscling the upper arm through the stroke. This is the result of the inertia of the lower arm swing. As the lower arm ends it movement, its inertia will pull on the upper arm VERY slightly. And with a loose relaxed upper arm, this intertia will pull the upper arm, resulting in the elbow dropping about one or two inches.

When looking at players that I consider to have some of the finest mechanics in the game (Allison Fisher and Ralf Soquet immediately come to mind), I see them having this subtle elbow movement as mentioned in #2 above. In fact, I can't think of seeing any great player that truly keeps their elbow absolutely 100% still throughout the entirety of the stroke. Being an engineer, when I say "100% still", I mean "100% still"! Allowing the elbow to drop 1 millimeter at the end of the stroke is NOT "100% still"!

Scott Lee, I am very interested in your views on what I just said. I don't think you and I are in disagreement. I am also an advocate of a still elbow during the stroke, and not muscling the stroke through with the upper arm in any way. But I think we may have different definitions of what it means to have a still elbow in a stroke.

Rod
09-03-2002, 02:23 PM
I think letting the elbow move or drop a little on the follow through is a natural motion. Having a fixed upper arm is just way to restrictive. Beginers and intermidate players, IMO should stick with a pendulm movement. The details within different types of strokes at a high level of play may have a player drop the elbow before c/b contact to get the desired results. It is not easily answered and if it could be the text would take way to many pages. My best reply is if you don't know why or when to drop the elbow then you should use a pendulm stroke.

09-03-2002, 03:47 PM
Just watch the pros play. Everyone (except Alan Hopkins) drops the elbow. The thing to notice is that the elbow dropping is part of the follow through, and happens well after the cue ball has been struck.

09-03-2002, 03:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Q-guy:</font><hr> How do you explain the Filipinos? Just kidding, now there is some wacky strokes. <hr></blockquote>

Yeah! Explain that, bluewolf! Yet they play soooooooo GOOD!

09-03-2002, 04:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bluewolf:</font><hr> scott is advanced too ... i bet he could beat any of the pros if he chose to go that route. <hr></blockquote>

Not to speak negatively of Scott because I admire all that he does to promote our fine sport but I am a betting man and frankly believe your statement comes blindly from a rank unknowing beginner.You have no idea of the quality of play that would await him.A kind endorsment yes but as I see time after time on this board,you know not of what you speak imo.BS

09-03-2002, 05:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: bluewolf:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; scott is advanced too ... i bet he could beat any of the pros if he chose to go that route. &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not to speak negatively of Scott because I admire all that he does to promote our fine sport but I am a betting man and frankly believe your statement comes blindly from a rank unknowing beginner.You have no idea of the quality of play that would await him.A kind endorsment yes but as I see time after time on this board,you know not of what you speak imo.BS <hr></blockquote>

i think bluewolf is full of bs! explain the filipinos style of elbow swinging, bluewolf? yet they play sooooo good!

socrates
09-03-2002, 08:15 PM
The question of constant debate. I personally have removed the word "drop" from my teaching vocabulary and have replaced it with the word release. However, I feel before you address your question you must first address what I refer to as natural alignment. This occurs when a player uses their natural skelatal structue to obtain proper alignment allowing the shoulder, elbow, wrist and hand to fall naturally on the same plane as the line of the shot and consequently the cue stick. As opposed to a player who twists into the shot or uses muscles to hold these pieces in alignment with the line of the shot. I believe that when a player has learned their natural alignment that the elbow can release since it will naturally release down the line of the shot. When a player is obtains alignment unnaturally by twisting and/or using their muscles to hold things in place I feel that if the elbow drops it will NOT be able to release down the line of the shot and that is why it is so critical for these players not to let the elbow move as it will move off line and therefore not produce a straight stroke.

As a players game progresses they will discover that on certain shots different results can be obtained by either releasing the elbow on the follow through or by having little or no elbow release on the follow through.

On the majority of shots there will be either no or a minimal release of the elbow down the line of the shot and the stroke will resemble the pendulum or throwing motion that is so often refered to.

The debate continues but thats my take on your question.

09-03-2002, 08:27 PM
I just want to thank all of you who posted your thoughts and opinions on this topic. It was truly an elightening exchange.

While it is quite obvious there is no absolute right or wrong in this matter, as in many aspects of pool, that in itself is valuable knowledge.

Thanks again.

Fran Crimi
09-03-2002, 11:41 PM
No, I'm not doing it on all my shots, Bob, but that doesn't mean that if you do, it's wrong. It depends on what's most efficient at the time for that particular player. For example: I used to believe that less moving parts were always more efficient, regardless of the shot. I've since learned that the concept of 'pool efficiency' is not that cut and dry. Efficiency can take on different forms.


Fran

Scott Lee
09-04-2002, 01:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Quote: I used to be a strong advocate of not dropping your elbow. However, I now know that players who don't drop their elbow on certain shots are missing out on some amazing things they can achieve with the cue ball with very little effort.


But if you know what you're looking at, you can really start to see the benefits of the elbow drop in advanced play.

(Sorry Scott, that's just the way I feel. Hope you don't mind my contradicting your post...you're in the majority on this point, anyway. I'm the rebel. Ha!)

That's about all I'm willing to share on the topic for now.

Fran <hr></blockquote>

Fran...I never mind anyone contradicting me. However, you'll have to prove that to me on the table. I don't believe that you can hit MOST any shot better, and get the same or BETTER result from dropping the elbow...even a power draw. I am most willing to learn what you mean, and if I think it works like you say it does, I would certainly incorporate into my teaching. However, I'll go toe-to-toe with you on any shot, shooting it with no elbow drop. KISS...Keep IT Simple...

Remember, I'm the rebel too...teaching looking at the CB last! LOL

Scott

Scott Lee
09-04-2002, 01:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bluewolf:</font><hr>
Fran,

just what advanced stuff do you get by dropping the elbow that scott doesnt get by not dropping his?

bluewolf <hr></blockquote>

That's what I want to know! LOL

Scott

Scott Lee
09-04-2002, 01:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Mike:</font><hr> You have certainly hit on a subtle but astoundingly important topic.

When I am having those days where I can do no right, it is almost always because I am doing one or both of two things:
1: Moving my upper arm during my stroke (moving my elbow).
2: Tightening and/or turning my wrist during the stoke.

The first one is the most severe and most common for me. Usually focusing on regaining control of my upper arm/elbow will start moving things in the right direction for me again.

I think it is important to make a distinction between different kinds of elbow movement during the stroke.

1: Actively pushing the upper arm down during the stoke, resulting in the whole arm being involved in the stroke.

2: Keeping the upper arm and elbow still during the stroke. At the VERY end of the stroke, the elbow will drop VERY slightly. One or two inches at most. This is NOT the result of muscling the upper arm through the stroke. This is the result of the inertia of the lower arm swing. As the lower arm ends it movement, its inertia will pull on the upper arm VERY slightly. And with a loose relaxed upper arm, this intertia will pull the upper arm, resulting in the elbow dropping about one or two inches.

When looking at players that I consider to have some of the finest mechanics in the game (Allison Fisher and Ralf Soquet immediately come to mind), I see them having this subtle elbow movement as mentioned in #2 above. In fact, I can't think of seeing any great player that truly keeps their elbow absolutely 100% still throughout the entirety of the stroke. Being an engineer, when I say "100% still", I mean "100% still"! Allowing the elbow to drop 1 millimeter at the end of the stroke is NOT "100% still"!

Scott Lee, I am very interested in your views on what I just said. I don't think you and I are in disagreement. I am also an advocate of a still elbow during the stroke, and not muscling the stroke through with the upper arm in any way. But I think we may have different definitions of what it means to have a still elbow in a stroke. <hr></blockquote>

I would agree with you 100%! LOL Seriously, there is probably no absolution in terms of NO drop at all, especially when you shoot hard. However, the limit, imo, would certainly be in the 1-2 inch range you describe.

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
09-04-2002, 01:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: bluewolf:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; scott is advanced too ... i bet he could beat any of the pros if he chose to go that route. &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not to speak negatively of Scott because I admire all that he does to promote our fine sport but I am a betting man and frankly believe your statement comes blindly from a rank unknowing beginner.You have no idea of the quality of play that would await him.A kind endorsment yes but as I see time after time on this board,you know not of what you speak imo.BS <hr></blockquote>

Well there ya go, BS! I have NEVER made any claims to being a champion OR a world-beater. I don't beat people...I TEACH people to beat people! BTW, if those FAMOUS pros could make the same money playing pool that I do...THEY WOULD!...sadly, they CAN'T! A small handfull make a decent living, but not many.

Scott Lee

Fran Crimi
09-04-2002, 03:55 AM
Sheesh...he wants it on a silver platter, no less! This is dues-paying stuff, Scott. Maybe I'll share when I get really really old.

Tell you what...next time you come to NY, give ma a call and we'll talk.

Fran

Q-guy
09-04-2002, 07:17 AM
Do you think when you teach complete beginners there may be a tendency for them to take something you may say literally? Years ago when a lot of the books were coming out on pool, guys would be coming into the poolroom with messed up ideas. They mistake what are guidelines as rules. In the Mosconi books he has you standing almost erect holding the cue at the front of the wrap. 2 to 4 inches behind the balance point. He says there is never a need to hit a shot hard. He tells you there is no need to use more then a tip of english away from the center of the cueball. You know all of this is not true but are good guidelines for a beginner learning the game. In answer to your question I just went to the table in the other room to see how many shots I could come up with where dropping the elbow would be beneficial and it did not take long. One for example was, and I will try to describe. The cue ball is one inch off the head rail near the middle. The object ball is a few inches in front of the far corner pocket with a very little bit of angle. You need to pocket the ball and bring the cue ball back to the head rail. your bridge is on the rail and you can only pull the cue back a couple of inches. The only way to do the shot is with low speed. To get back to head rail you need to follow through almost to the point of the shot being a push. The cue ends up extended in front of you. I tried it without dropping the elbow and extending the cue and it was very difficult. If you don't drop the elbow you have to hit the shot harder and the stroke becomes a punch. It doesn't work half the time and not nearly as good as with the long slow forced follow through. I found other shots but is hard to describe pool shots in print and takes to long. I have never seen your exhibition, but I am sure you do things that are hard to believe to the average player and you use all sorts of strokes to accomplish them. That is what I mean by literally. Bluewolf now believes if someone drops the elbow they are doing something very, very wrong when sometimes it can't be helped. I did read in another one of your responses you admitted that a small drop of a few inches in the elbow is OK. I actually don't believe you ever told Bluewolf to never, never, never, drop the elbow. I think she just doesn't get it and will argue to the death because you said it. I think you have a fan.

09-04-2002, 07:17 AM
Fran,

Thanks for the response. One more question if you don't mind? Is it a conscious decision to only drop the elbow on certain shots, or are you just letting your body do what is natural for you with each particular shot to get the cueball to achieve the desired response? Thanks for your input.

Rob or Bob :-) &lt;&lt;&lt;I have been called far worse

Fred Agnir
09-04-2002, 07:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fran Crimi:</font><hr> No, I'm not doing it on all my shots, Bob, but that doesn't mean that if you do, it's wrong. It depends on what's most efficient at the time for that particular player. For example: I used to believe that less moving parts were always more efficient, regardless of the shot. I've since learned that the concept of 'pool efficiency' is not that cut and dry. Efficiency can take on different forms.<hr></blockquote>
This also points to my endless rant about the physical aspects of the game. Though it may be true that for some, less moving parts might be better, I think it's plain to see that some people have more ability to coordinate sub-consciously or otherwise several body parts. That shouldn't be held against them.

Fran and others hit it on the head: sometimes moving more parts is actually easier and more efficient. That speaks to not only the elbow drop/release, but also the loose wrist. No, you don't *need* the loose wrist or elbow drop, but I would hazard to guess that for the vast majority of players from beginners to professionals *benefit* from using the three basic motions in coordination (wrist, forearm, upper arm).

Every other sport that throws or pushes balls or sticks relies on the coordinated motion of the athlete to do their thing, from golf to free throws. You don't *need* to move the arms, wrist, and legs to shoot free throws, but it sure makes it a lot easier and , dare I say, efficient. You don't *need* to move anything other than the forearm to bowl a strike, but c'mon, you can do a whole lot more by using the rest of the body. It is very obvious that those who can coordinate the arm, hip, wrist movements with fluidity and rhythm (a Fancher nod) just make the game they play much better and easier.

I think some people do have problems with this natural coordination. Others have less problems. I think it's up to the instructor and student to be open to those areas.

Fred

09-04-2002, 07:49 AM

Fred Agnir
09-04-2002, 08:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: whitewolf:</font><hr> Well Fran, all I have to say right now is that I would take Scott's game over yours anyday. As they say: "the proof is in the pudding".

Doesn't mean Scott is right or wrong, he is just more consistent than you. <hr></blockquote>

But this is silly to say, since anyone can point at dozens of pros who are better than Scott who are proving that it works. So, let's not compare player to player, but instead method to method.

Fred

09-04-2002, 09:12 AM

bluewolf
09-04-2002, 09:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: CueBald:</font><hr> I just want to thank all of you who posted your thoughts and opinions on this topic. It was truly an elightening exchange.

While it is quite obvious there is no absolute right or wrong in this matter, as in many aspects of pool, that in itself is valuable knowledge.

Thanks again. <hr></blockquote>

i have seen some very good players drop less than an inch on the followthrough stroke. i cannot do that with any consistency.if i allow my elbow to drop one iota,one time it might drop an inch, another time much more causing a miscue.so it really isnt an option for me.

another observation and this is pure physics. if my upper arm is exactly parallel to the floor and in my follow through, it goes the length of my reach only, the elbow does not drop.if my pendelum arm goes beyond that point, it causes the elbow to drop.probably not telling you guys anything new but it is new knowledge to me.even though i performed pretty poorly in my lesson with scott, he definately got my wheels turning and once i got past my ego, i am shooting better

bluewolf

bluewolf
09-04-2002, 09:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: bluewolf:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; scott is advanced too ... i bet he could beat any of the pros if he chose to go that route. &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not to speak negatively of Scott because I admire all that he does to promote our fine sport but I am a betting man and frankly believe your statement comes blindly from a rank unknowing beginner.You have no idea of the quality of play that would await him.A kind endorsment yes but as I see time after time on this board,you know not of what you speak imo.BS <hr></blockquote>

i am willing to bet that i know more than you think.sometimes i play 'columbo'and people dont get my humor. i know enough to know the differenc between what i know and what i dont know.

the fact that you felt compelled to insult me tells more about you that it does about me.i will play you in a year and we will see who is the beginner!!!

bluewolf

bluewolf
09-04-2002, 09:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Anonymous:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: bluewolf:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; scott is advanced too ... i bet he could beat any of the pros if he chose to go that route. &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not to speak negatively of Scott because I admire all that he does to promote our fine sport but I am a betting man and frankly believe your statement comes blindly from a rank unknowing beginner.You have no idea of the quality of play that would await him.A kind endorsment yes but as I see time after time on this board,you know not of what you speak imo.BS &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

i think bluewolf is full of bs! explain the filipinos style of elbow swinging, bluewolf? yet they play sooooo good! <hr></blockquote>

getting on here and taking potshots at someone who is really serious about pool, spends hours at the table and takes lessons reveals you as the spineless, wimpy creep you are.

come out into the light and let us see who you really are.or did you just crawl out from under some rock!!!!

bluewolf

bluewolf
09-04-2002, 09:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: whitewolf:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Fred Agnir:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: whitewolf:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; Well Fran, all I have to say right now is that I would take Scott's game over yours anyday. As they say: "the proof is in the pudding".

Doesn't mean Scott is right or wrong, he is just more consistent than you. &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But this is silly to say, since anyone can point at dozens of pros who are better than Scott who are proving that it works. So, let's not compare player to player, but instead method to method.

Fred &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Fred, you are correct, and I was just being silly LOL. <hr></blockquote>

whitewolf, you are silly all the time.suspect many dont get your humor any better than they get mine.hard thing when you cant see a twinkle in the eye &lt;G&gt;

bluewolf

09-04-2002, 10:47 AM
Cool. We are in 100% agreement then.

Like I said, I'm an engineer. When someone says no elbow drop, I take it that they mean NO elbow drop! NONE! ZIP! NADA! ZERO! /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Q: What do engineers use for birth control?
A: Their personalities.
/ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

09-04-2002, 11:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bluewolf:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Anonymous:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; &amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font class="small"&amp;gt;Quote: Anonymous:&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;hr&amp;gt; &amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font class="small"&amp;gt;Quote: bluewolf:&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;hr&amp;gt; scott is advanced too ... i bet he could beat any of the pros if he chose to go that route. &amp;lt;hr&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;

Not to speak negatively of Scott because I admire all that he does to promote our fine sport but I am a betting man and frankly believe your statement comes blindly from a rank unknowing beginner.You have no idea of the quality of play that would await him.A kind endorsment yes but as I see time after time on this board,you know not of what you speak imo.BS &amp;lt;hr&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;

i think bluewolf is full of bs! explain the filipinos style of elbow swinging, bluewolf? yet they play sooooo good! &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

getting on here and taking potshots at someone who is really serious about pool, spends hours at the table and takes lessons reveals you as the spineless, wimpy creep you are.

come out into the light and let us see who you really are.or did you just crawl out from under some rock!!!!

bluewolf <hr></blockquote>

maybe you need a MAWASHI GERI to the head to wake you up! another crap BS pool expert wannabe on the CCB!

09-04-2002, 11:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: bluewolf:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;
Fran,

just what advanced stuff do you get by dropping the elbow that scott doesnt get by not dropping his?

bluewolf &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That's what I want to know! LOL

Scott <hr></blockquote>

bluewolf, how about those damn filipinos with their elbows? yet they play so good! LOL

bluewolf
09-04-2002, 11:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: bluewolf:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Anonymous:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; &amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font class="small"&amp;gt;Quote: Anonymous:&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;hr&amp;gt; &amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font class="small"&amp;gt;Quote: bluewolf:&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;hr&amp;gt; scott is advanced too ... i bet he could beat any of the pros if he chose to go that route. &amp;lt;hr&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;

Not to speak negatively of Scott because I admire all that he does to promote our fine sport but I am a betting man and frankly believe your statement comes blindly from a rank unknowing beginner.You have no idea of the quality of play that would await him.A kind endorsment yes but as I see time after time on this board,you know not of what you speak imo.BS &amp;lt;hr&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;

i think bluewolf is full of bs! explain the filipinos style of elbow swinging, bluewolf? yet they play sooooo good! &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

getting on here and taking potshots at someone who is really serious about pool, spends hours at the table and takes lessons reveals you as the spineless, wimpy creep you are.

come out into the light and let us see who you really are.or did you just crawl out from under some rock!!!!

bluewolf &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

maybe you need a MAWASHI GERI to the head to wake you up! another crap BS pool expert wannabe on the CCB! <hr></blockquote>

blah blah blah

bluewolf

bluewolf
09-04-2002, 11:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr>

maybe you need a MAWASHI GERI to the head to wake you up! another crap BS pool expert wannabe on the CCB! <hr></blockquote>

oh i am really hurt ROTFLMAO

anger,venom,of the dark force are these.

is your name purchanse, Darth Vader

teeheehee

bluewolf

bluewolf
09-04-2002, 11:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Scott Lee:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: bluewolf:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;
Fran,

just what advanced stuff do you get by dropping the elbow that scott doesnt get by not dropping his?

bluewolf &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That's what I want to know! LOL

Scott &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

bluewolf, how about those damn filipinos with their elbows? yet they play so good! LOL <hr></blockquote>

i think i read this question before. is this dejavu? you are almost as funny as downtown with only half the wit.

bluewolf

bluewolf
09-04-2002, 11:41 AM
well i think it is past time to stop this. while i think bantaring is hilarious fun, people on this forum do not like it. so i will not be picking up the guantlet anymore.

so if you insult me further, do not intertpret my silence as weakness.it is out of the desire of the majority to not have flaming on here.

have a nice pool day...time to hit the table

bluewolf

Voodoo Daddy
09-04-2002, 06:40 PM
Russian sighting out west? Tell us more....

NH_Steve
09-04-2002, 08:48 PM
Not that I have a great stroke (maybe I have lots of experience with a faulty one /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif ), but I agree with you, there's a right kind of drop &amp; a wrong kind. IMO, the main thing with a good stroke is the flow, which is led by the wrist, powered by the pendulum, and only followed by the drop, depending on the follow-through. The bad kind of drop is pushing or leading with the shoulder, which kills most of the wrist action. Yeah, I've been fairly well acquainted with the shoulder push off and on over the years /ccboard/images/icons/frown.gif

Scott Lee
09-04-2002, 09:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Q-guy:</font><hr> Do you think when you teach complete beginners there may be a tendency for them to take something you may say literally?

In answer to your question I just went to the table in the other room to see how many shots I could come up with where dropping the elbow would be beneficial and it did not take long. One for example was, and I will try to describe. The cue ball is one inch off the head rail near the middle. The object ball is a few inches in front of the far corner pocket with a very little bit of angle. You need to pocket the ball and bring the cue ball back to the head rail. your bridge is on the rail and you can only pull the cue back a couple of inches. The only way to do the shot is with low speed. To get back to head rail you need to follow through almost to the point of the shot being a push. The cue ends up extended in front of you. I tried it without dropping the elbow and extending the cue and it was very difficult. If you don't drop the elbow you have to hit the shot harder and the stroke becomes a punch. It doesn't work half the time and not nearly as good as with the long slow forced follow through. <hr></blockquote>

Q-Guy...If I am visualizing this shot correctly (can't you put it on the WEI table?), I don't understand why you would only be able to backswing the cuestick a short distance, rather than a full backswing. The shot you describe, when it is nearly straight in, and several feet away from the CB (especially with the CB that near the rail), would certainly be a tough shot to make and run the CB back up table with a soft shot...it would depend on exactly how much angle you could manufacture in the pocket. With a little angle, it is pretty easy (imo) to bring the CB back up table...even with a lag/soft stroke...and to do it without dropping the elbow. If it was dead straight, that would make it more difficult, and would require more speed...still, imo, not requiring the elbow drop. I will try the shot tomorrow, and repost again. Perhaps we can trade shots in your poolroom when I come down to FL in Nov.
Like I told Fran...I am always interested in learning new ways of looking at the stroke, since that is the cornerstone of a better game.

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
09-04-2002, 09:24 PM
Fran...Nah, no silver platter, but maybe I'd provide dinner! LOL All I am talking about is an exchange of ideas, which is natural for both of us. As far as NY, it's a date...see ya in Feb. My apoligies for WW's stab at your skill as a player (even if he was kidding). I think you are a great player, as well as an excellent instructor.

Scott

Scott Lee
09-04-2002, 09:42 PM
socrates hit the nail on the head here. I find more students that do not have good alignment, than those that do. Sometimes it is easy to fix, sometimes nearly impossible, without the student feeling like they are holding their arm in an unnatural position (since they are not used to the "natural drop" position. Good point!

Scott Lee

09-04-2002, 11:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Anonymous:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: bluewolf:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; scott is advanced too ... i bet he could beat any of the pros if he chose to go that route. &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not to speak negatively of Scott because I admire all that he does to promote our fine sport but I am a betting man and frankly believe your statement comes blindly from a rank unknowing beginner.You have no idea of the quality of play that would await him.A kind endorsment yes but as I see time after time on this board,you know not of what you speak imo.BS &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well there ya go, BS! I have NEVER made any claims to being a champion OR a world-beater. I don't beat people...I TEACH people to beat people! BTW, if those FAMOUS pros could make the same money playing pool that I do...THEY WOULD!...sadly, they CAN'T! A small handfull make a decent living, but not many.

Scott Lee <hr></blockquote>

I realize that the young lady was doin' all the talkin' Scott.

I was only trying to enlighten her as to the degree of talent that roams the country.I'm sure that you'll agree.

And she used the magic word ... 'bet'.I only wanted to 'call' on her statement.

/ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif Now Columbo wants to 'bet' again and torch me in a years time.Can't wait.

Keep up the good work.BS

09-04-2002, 11:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bluewolf:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Anonymous:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: bluewolf:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; scott is advanced too ... i bet he could beat any of the pros if he chose to go that route. &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not to speak negatively of Scott because I admire all that he does to promote our fine sport but I am a betting man and frankly believe your statement comes blindly from a rank unknowing beginner.You have no idea of the quality of play that would await him.A kind endorsment yes but as I see time after time on this board,you know not of what you speak imo.BS &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

i am willing to bet that i know more than you think.sometimes i play 'columbo'and people dont get my humor. i know enough to know the differenc between what i know and what i dont know.

the fact that you felt compelled to insult me tells more about you that it does about me.i will play you in a year and we will see who is the beginner!!!

bluewolf <hr></blockquote>

"I know enough to know the difference between what I know and what I don't know."

I didn't know that /ccboard/images/icons/crazy.gif /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Not sure where in my post that I insulted you,but I apologize for how it was construed.BS

bluewolf
09-05-2002, 07:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr> socrates hit the nail on the head here. I find more students that do not have good alignment, than those that do. Sometimes it is easy to fix, sometimes nearly impossible, without the student feeling like they are holding their arm in an unnatural position (since they are not used to the "natural drop" position. Good point!

Scott Lee <hr></blockquote>

i think i know what you mean by alignment, but just to be sure,could you spell it out for me.

Laura

bluewolf
09-05-2002, 08:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> I didn't know that /ccboard/images/icons/crazy.gif /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Not sure where in my post that I insulted you,but I apologize for how it was construed.BS <hr></blockquote>

well it sounds like you are better at pool than me.i will take knowlege wherever i can get it. see i have found that in most sports, the ones that excell the most are the ones that have to work the hardest cuz they know it wont come easy.so, like me, i listen to what people say and then try it out on my table.it's gonna take a lot of hard work for me to be a good pool player but i have determination and willing to do what it takes. now that i have my pool table up, i can play everyday.

i have a theory. not 100%. always exceptions.those who are not as talented are hungry for knowledge and suggestions so they remain open and teachable. those with natural ability sometimes develop an ego and are not as teachable.
those natural players frequently plateau and are often surpassed by those who were originally way less talented.

bluewolf

bluewolf
09-05-2002, 08:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> Well there ya go, BS! I have NEVER made any claims to being a champion OR a world-beater. I don't beat people...I TEACH people to beat people! BTW, if those FAMOUS pros could make the same money playing pool that I do...THEY WOULD!...sadly, they CAN'T! A small handfull make a decent living, but not many.

Scott Lee &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I realize that the young lady was doin' all the talkin' Scott.

I was only trying to enlighten her as to the degree of talent that roams the country.I'm sure that you'll agree.

And she used the magic word ... 'bet'.I only wanted to 'call' on her statement.

/ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif Now Columbo wants to 'bet' again and torch me in a years time.Can't wait.

Keep up the good work.BS <hr></blockquote>

I have beaten better players than me because I am good at safes. Even if I did not beat you, if a played a good match, I would still feel pretty good.

bluewolf

bluewolf
09-05-2002, 08:21 AM
after my lesson with scott, i became very aware of the mechanics of the stroke. whitewolf's team was in the playoffs last night.this gave me a chance to observe soome pretty good players.what i noticed is that they did not drop their elbows with one exception.if they were hitting a powershot, they dropped no more than an inch on the follow through.

now i have learned this new stroke. i cannot do powershots yet.so for now i do the medium and soft speed ones and do not drop the elbow. when i get another lesson with scott,i will ask him about the powershots.

bluewolf

09-05-2002, 08:52 AM

Rod
09-05-2002, 10:35 AM
Very true WW it can easily be done with a 5" bridge and only a couple of inches of follow through past the c/b. There would be no reason to let the elbow move. I assume this is not power draw or follow, just using an angle to send the c/b 4 rails for position.

Q-guy
09-05-2002, 12:26 PM
I don't have a room right now but coincidentally I was talking to a building owner this morning about reopening a bar and poolroom that closed about a year ago. It became a biker place and was bombed before it closed. If I can get a deal, everything is there except tables and I have a few in storage now. Anyway where will you be in Florida?

bluewolf
09-05-2002, 02:18 PM
snce i have just learned this new stroke, here is something else i saw last night.this was an apa 7.his upper arm was on a 30% slant downwards.he still did the pendulum swing and did not drop the elbow, but his arm was just in another position.

i coould not do this without dropping the elbow,but wondered what anybody thought about this particular stroke.

bluewolf

Rod
09-05-2002, 02:48 PM
Is this as opposed to being horizontal? You will find it varies from player arm length, height etc and how tall they stand at address or while playing. If I was to measure mine in degrees 30% would be fairly close. I am a very upright player and do not have long arms so that is why. The cue is at least 14" below my chin. Most anyone that has their chin near the cue will have a horizontal upper arm or even raised above horizontal.

Scott Lee
09-05-2002, 09:24 PM
When your body is "in alignment" with the cue, your wrist, elbow, shoulder and head should be inline with the cuestick. Have Whitewolf stand behind you and look as you are down on a shot. It should show up on your lesson tape too. I try to get shots from behind you (as well as looking right AT you) to show whether or not you are in line, and if not, how much out of line you are. This is all in comparison to the cuestick, as you have your bridge on the table.

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
09-05-2002, 09:33 PM
Q-Guy...Right now I am talking to schools in Tallahassee, Jacksonville, Gainsville, Melbourne, Daytona, Tampa, St. Pete, St. Augustine, Miami, and Naples...who knows which ones will bite this time around. I'll let ya know.

Scott