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hondo
11-12-2010, 10:17 PM
I would like everyone's opinion.
It doesn't matter whether you believe or not.
We are all familiar with what Jesus represents.

What would He think of Beck, Limbaugh, and Hannity?
Defend your position.

What would He think of the Religious Right?

What would Jesus think of Sarah Palin and the Tea Party? Why?

What would Jesus think of national health care?

What would Jesus think of a woman's right to an abortion?
What would He think of murdering abortion doctors?

What would Jesus think of Social Security? Medicare? Disability?

What would Jesus think of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?

What would Jesus think of gay marriage?

What would Jesus think of the hate directed at Bush and/or Obama?

Answer any or all. Defend your position.

hondo
11-12-2010, 10:19 PM
Feel free to add questions of your own.

wolfdancer
11-12-2010, 10:56 PM
Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity......the late, great JC's call...
"burn, baby, burn".
Religious right....JC "WTF...can't you people read. What happened to them guidelines I sent back from Mt. Sinai ???
He turned around Mary Magdalene's life as a prostitute, but she only sold her body for $$, not her soul for power....maybe turn Sarah into a pillar of salt... and for good measure, O'Reilly into a deer, in need of a salt lick?
JC would be all for health care, as he can only cure so many... so many people, so little time.
Sarah...He might consider aborting her....
Abortion MDs..."an eye for an eye"
SS, medicare, disability..."Send me your poor, your sick, and your elderly"...He would be issuing the checks
"War is hell...and that's what I had in mind for them folks later on"
"That ain't quite the way, I designed the plumbing"
Rules are made to be broken...He would be out there picketing the Bush plantation.
"That's not what I had in mind when I endorsed Black Power"

Defend what position...my mind changes with each drink....

hondo
11-12-2010, 11:00 PM
Good post, but I do not believe Mary Magdalen was ever a prostitute.
More likely was Jesus's wife.

wolfdancer
11-12-2010, 11:20 PM
you may be right...as I just googled and read:
"According to Luke 8:2 and Mark 16:9, Jesus cleansed her of "seven demons," a concept usually associated in the New Testament with healing from illness,[6] not forgiveness of sin."
Also a mention that she might have been Jesus wife, but I find that hard to believe....how could any woman endure not winning an argument?....and when He came home and she asked "where have you been, I got dinner waiting?"....after He explained, would she be raising her eyebrows and saying something like " You expect me to believe that? You fed 5000 Jews with only a few loaves of bread?"

eg8r
11-13-2010, 01:35 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What would He think of Beck, Limbaugh, and Hannity?
Defend your position. <span style="color: #FF0000">eg8r-without judging them I don't think he would be happy with the way most of us act some of the time.</span>

What would He think of the Religious Right? <span style="color: #FF0000"> eg8r-same as above.</span>

What would Jesus think of Sarah Palin and the Tea Party? Why? <span style="color: #FF0000">eg8r-same as above.</span>

What would Jesus think of national health care? <span style="color: #FF0000"> eg8r-probably be against the delivery due to the fact that it increase debt and he speaks many times in the Bible about debt.</span>

What would Jesus think of a woman's right to an abortion? <span style="color: #FF0000">eg8r-I think he would be against it.</span>
What would He think of murdering abortion doctors? <span style="color: #FF0000"> eg8r-I think he would be against it.</span>

What would Jesus think of Social Security? Medicare? Disability? <span style="color: #FF0000">eg8r-I have no idea, however I think he would be against borrowing against social security in an effort to hide realized debt.</span>

What would Jesus think of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? <span style="color: #FF0000">eg8r-I have no idea.</span>

What would Jesus think of gay marriage? <span style="color: #FF0000">eg8r-I believe he would be completely against it since he gives his definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman. </span>

What would Jesus think of the hate directed at Bush and/or Obama? <span style="color: #FF0000">eg8r-I think he would be against it.</span>

Answer any or all. Defend your position.

</div></div>Hopefully that will suffice since I am unwilling to expound much further.

eg8r

eg8r
11-13-2010, 01:39 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"According to Luke 8:2 and Mark 16:9, Jesus cleansed her of "seven demons," a concept usually associated in the New Testament with healing from illness,[6] not forgiveness of sin."
</div></div>As well as I remember, the only way to forgive sins at that point was through sacrifice. It was not until he died on the cross were our sins forgiven without physical sacrifice.

I don't believe Jesus was ever married and the books that talk about things like that came much much later in history and were not direct accounts from those at the time or one generation or so later.

eg8r

hondo
11-13-2010, 06:18 AM
It will have to suffice. TY.

hondo
11-13-2010, 06:20 AM
There are some indicators in the NT that he was probably married and the only likely prospect is Magdalen.

But, that's another thread. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

hondo
11-13-2010, 06:22 AM
What would He think of Beck, Limbaugh, and Hannity?
Defend your position. eg8r-without judging them I don't think he would be happy with the way most of us act some of the time.


Do you believe all sins are equal in God's eyes?

Deeman3
11-13-2010, 08:54 AM
The bigger question is what would he think of all of us?

I think he may have had bigger plans for us.

Gayle in MD
11-13-2010, 11:02 AM
Here is my question.
What would He think about what Republicans are doing to this planet by protecting those who are polluting it, and making His Children Sick as dogs, and then refusing to give them health care when they are ill, or going after the companies who drop them, when they are ill, or making the corporations which do these terrible thiings, pay for what they have done to people, instead of making the victims, give them more tax cuts, to hoard and hide away out of gross greed, or making them pay up for what they have done to the world, it's people, it's animals, it's oceans...

What would he think about the thieves on Wall Street?

Hallibburton?

Dick Cheney?

George Bush?
Mitch McConnell? who has exploited the poor in KY, and been right in the back pocket of Tobacco, Oil, and the huge, Military Industrial Complex...and all that it steals from the country.




What does Jesus say about Stealing, Greed, Lying, Killing innoceant children, or letting them staarve, telling the homeless F.U.

Killing people, after telling gross lies, and lying the whole country into killing them.

What does He think about SLANDER?

The Obese?

The GREED?

We all already know....

sack316
11-13-2010, 11:41 AM
Actually, taking it all into modern day times... the 'evil' people you mention would most likely become the apostles.

The lone "good one" of the bunch was actually Judas!

We saw how that worked out /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Sack

sack316
11-13-2010, 11:45 AM
this is a great topic Hondo, I look forward to doing my best attempt at answering as soon as I have some time to dig into it!

Sack

wolfdancer
11-13-2010, 12:35 PM
or....... He might say....
" no, no, no....tab B goes into slot B,not slot A, and never into slot C; can't you folks ever get anything straight ( no pun intended)
As I improved on the original design....I forgot to add a user's manual:
http://www.arts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/index_files/guards.jpg

Deeman3
11-13-2010, 02:19 PM
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Gayle in MD
11-13-2010, 03:47 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like everyone's opinion.
It doesn't matter whether you believe or not.
We are all familiar with what Jesus represents.

What would He think of Beck, Limbaugh, and Hannity? <span style="color: #CC0000">Not much </span>
Defend your position.
<span style="color: #CC0000">He told me. </span> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

What would He think of the Religious Right?
<span style="color: #CC0000">Not much. He doesn't like Republicans. </span> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

What would Jesus think of Sarah Palin and the Tea Party? Why?

<span style="color: #CC0000">Same as above. </span>

What would Jesus think of national health care?

<span style="color: #CC0000">He would be disappointed that it would take a government policy, to get His children to do the right thing, and care for the less fortunate. </span>

What would Jesus think of a woman's right to an abortion?

<span style="color: #CC0000">No way to know, really, since He never spoke about it. </span>
What would He think of murdering abortion doctors?
<span style="color: #CC0000">I don't think He would approve of that, since only He is to be our judge. </span>


What would Jesus think of Social Security? Medicare? Disability?

<span style="color: #CC0000">He would approve. He was a Liberal, you know. </span>

What would Jesus think of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?

<span style="color: #CC0000">He would definately disapprove of both, I'm sure. He said to love, and forgive, no mention of blowoing people up, or torturing them.</span>

What would Jesus think of gay marriage?

<span style="color: #CC0000">Again, I couldn't guess, but I know of no harsh statements about Homosexuality, by jesus, but He did say, "Love thy Neighbor, as thy self....</span>

What would Jesus think of the hate directed at Bush and/or Obama?
<span style="color: #CC0000">He would approve of speaking out against Bush's policies, but not approve of any hate, at all, against anyone, ever. </span>
Answer any or all. Defend your position. </div></div>

<span style="color: #CC0000">I don't have to defend my position anymore, I'm old, lol, unless He tells me to do so.

I've always thought that Jesus taught nothing but love, and forgiveness, compassion and understanding, helping others where ever, and whenever they show up in our lives, reaching out to try to make their burdens, lighter, their path, easier, and not to judge others, but to love all others, doing so for Him.

I can't quote it, but I'm sure He spoke against Greed, Glutony, and waste, so He would never approve of War, IMO.

G.</span>

sack316
11-13-2010, 04:40 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.... so He would never approve of War, IMO.

</div></div>

Interesting enough, his words are scarce in regards to war. And what words are known have been debated for some time. I won't go into details right now.

To add even more confusion, though... Revelations prophesies that Jesus will make wars on nations Himself one day.

But as far as his own actual words, it's hard to say. One could quote phrases and parables both seemingly for and against it. One could debate whether or not "sword" is literal or figurative in such statements, whether it is intended for nations or individuals, internal or external, etc.

Sack

Qtec
11-13-2010, 07:43 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What would Jesus think of national health care? eg8r-probably be against the delivery due to the fact that it increase debt and he speaks many times in the Bible about debt. </div></div>

Rubbish.

Jesus is against healing the sick and poor?


Q

Gayle in MD
11-14-2010, 04:42 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What would Jesus think of national health care? eg8r-probably be against the delivery due to the fact that it increase debt and he speaks many times in the Bible about debt. </div></div>

Rubbish.

Jesus is against healing the sick and poor?


Q </div></div>

When we seek to speak of values, right and wrong, good and evil, the disconnection between religion, and the real details of human and animal well being, is obvious.

The Catholic church, for example, simply is at this momennt, more concerned about stopping contraception, than it is about stopping the rape of children...and based on the level of it's doctrine and the level of it's actions, in the world, that is a fact. It's more concerned about Gay marriage, than it is about Genocide. This is what I would call a diabolical inversion of priorities.

The moment you link questions of morality, to questions of human and animal well being, you see that the use of the terminology, as in talking about the morality of contraception, for example, is a false use.

It would seem to me that the only prospect of building a global civilization where we could converge on the same kinds of answers to the most important questions of human life, the same kinds of environmental, economoical and politica goals, is for us to come up with a framework, in which we could talk about values, right and wrong, good and evil, in universal terrms. IMO, only science can provide that framework.

An honest discussion about the prospects of human and animal well being, is that frame work of Science, not that of organized religion, as it seems to me, obvious, that much of the framework of any organized religion, begins with the notion, that only supposedly tyhe collective, "My" religion, "My" version of God's will, has the correct moral base, and all others, go against the idea, that "mine" is the correct one.

It is the complelte lack of concern, for our environment, safremoving ety regulations, failure to care for the ill, the disadvantages, failing to remove those scientifically proven threats, to human and animal well being, in the interest of "The Love Of Money" "The bottom line, profit only based view, a subscription by some in our society, and others, like China, for example, in the interest of profits only, which I find at odds with aything that could ever be lnked to what Jesus would think.

When so much of what I see around me, is basesd on either ignoring the question, of human and animal well being, ignoring theresults of pollution, for example, or voting for those representatives who have proven over and over again, their complete lack of interest in putting that human and animal well being at the top priority, which in my world, and coming from my view, prove to me which among them truly are evil.

These are the people who least display, any link to anything that Jesus would approve of, in our society. Those who demonize others, for being ho they are, and deny the why, behind how they become, as they are. IOW, the Science, which is the only provable barometer of what is good, and what is evil.

G.

eg8r
11-14-2010, 03:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are some indicators in the NT that he was probably married and the only likely prospect is Magdalen.

</div></div>What are these indicators? Please provide the passage.

eg8r

eg8r
11-14-2010, 03:15 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rubbish.

Jesus is against healing the sick and poor?

</div></div>Sorry but the HC bill does not heal a single person.

eg8r

Deeman3
11-14-2010, 03:56 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rubbish.

Jesus is against healing the sick and poor?

</div></div>Sorry but the HC bill does not heal a single person.

eg8r </div></div>
<span style="color: #FF9966"> It has already done pretty nice job of healing the Republican Party!</span>

Deeman3
11-14-2010, 04:20 PM
We all fall short of the glory of God, except, of course, those who do not believe.

hondo
11-14-2010, 06:26 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are some indicators in the NT that he was probably married and the only likely prospect is Magdalen.

</div></div>What are these indicators? Please provide the passage.

eg8r </div></div>

Mary Magdalen was constantly at His side and was held in very high esteem.
She was the one who went to the tomb to attend to His body.
He is referred to as "Rabbi" , a distinction reserved for married men. Plus, men were expected to marry in that society.
Some speculate that the wedding where He turned the water into wine was His owm.

Why did Jesus have to be celibate? Where does it say He died on the Cross a virgin?
Why is sex dirty?
And if He did have sex , he was almost surely married.

And what other woman is mentioned more prominently in His adult life than the Magdalen.

hondo
11-14-2010, 06:28 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rubbish.

Jesus is against healing the sick and poor?

</div></div>Sorry but the HC bill does not heal a single person.

eg8r </div></div>

Neither does lack of medical care, which, unfortunately, is the plight of many of the working poor.

hondo
11-14-2010, 06:29 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We all fall short of the glory of God, except, of course, those who do not believe. </div></div>


???????

hondo
11-14-2010, 06:32 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rubbish.

Jesus is against healing the sick and poor?

</div></div>Sorry but the HC bill does not heal a single person.

eg8r </div></div>
<span style="color: #FF9966"> It has already done pretty nice job of healing the Republican Party!</span>
</div></div>

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif True dat!

Sev
11-14-2010, 06:42 PM
If Jesus existed he came as the lamb the first time.
If Jesus existed and returns a second time he will bring Gods wrath upon the earth.
It will most likely be an extinction event.

hondo
11-14-2010, 07:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If Jesus existed he came as the lamb the first time.
If Jesus existed and returns a second time he will bring Gods wrath upon the earth.
It will most likely be an extinction event.

</div></div>

In America only wing nuts and neo-nazis will be in trouble.
Oh, wait a minute! They're the same thing. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Sev
11-14-2010, 07:25 PM
Well at least you know where your going.

hondo
11-14-2010, 07:31 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well at least you know where your going.
</div></div>

I assume you think I'm going to Hell.
Why do you think that? Because I disagree with you and your buddies?

Sev
11-14-2010, 08:24 PM
Your so negative.
I would be standing toe to toe with Jesus presenting my argument.

Remember the meek will inherit the earth.

wolfdancer
11-14-2010, 09:45 PM
c'mon now,... that deserves at least two smileys /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

hondo
11-14-2010, 09:53 PM
1. Your [sic] so negative.

Am NOT. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif


2.I would be standing toe to toe with Jesus presenting my argument.

I probably will too if given the chance.

3.Remember the meek will inherit the earth.

The original word for "meek" actually meant open to God's word, not "timid."

wolfdancer
11-14-2010, 10:29 PM
I think He may have some "special plans" for you
"Toe to Toe with Jesus" ....I hope He is up to the... "challenge"
It'll be a little different, me thinks, then presenting your case to the AZB student body, in a mock trial......

hondo
11-15-2010, 07:27 AM
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Gayle in MD
11-15-2010, 07:53 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rubbish.

Jesus is against healing the sick and poor?

</div></div>Sorry but the HC bill does not heal a single person.

eg8r </div></div>

Neither does lack of medical care, which, unfortunately, is the plight of many of the working poor. </div></div>

I can't believe he wrote that. Blatantly untrue statement.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Gayle in MD
11-15-2010, 08:04 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We all fall short of the glory of God, except, of course, those who do not believe. </div></div>


??????? </div></div>

I, too, found that statement either confusing, or, irrational. Without an explanation of it's meaning, we'll probably never know.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

eg8r
11-15-2010, 08:37 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Neither does lack of medical care, which, unfortunately, is the plight of many of the working poor.</div></div>This only a myth.

eg8r

Deeman3
11-15-2010, 09:32 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">c'mon now,... that deserves at least two smileys /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif </div></div>


/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

and a bonus one /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

sack316
11-15-2010, 10:41 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We all fall short of the glory of God, except, of course, those who do not believe. </div></div>


??????? </div></div>

I, too, found that statement either confusing, or, irrational. Without an explanation of it's meaning, we'll probably never know.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif </div></div>

It means that true believers recognize we are sinners and fall far short from "perfection". On our own merits alone, none of us are worthy of the kingdom of Heaven. Only through God's grace and forgiveness are we able to reach it.

Non-believers do not have that same "measuring stick" (for lack of a better term coming to mind).

Sack

Stretch
11-15-2010, 11:01 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We all fall short of the glory of God, except, of course, those who do not believe. </div></div>


??????? </div></div>

I, too, found that statement either confusing, or, irrational. Without an explanation of it's meaning, we'll probably never know.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif </div></div>

It means that true believers recognize we are sinners and fall far short from "perfection". On our own merits alone, none of us are worthy of the kingdom of Heaven. Only through God's grace and forgiveness are we able to reach it.

Non-believers do not have that same "measuring stick" (for lack of a better term coming to mind).

Sack </div></div>

I guess non-believers don't carry around as much guilt as a result. St.

eg8r
11-15-2010, 11:22 AM
I guess what Dee was trying to say is if you don't believe in God then how can you (in your mind) fall short of the glory of God? As a Christian, I don't think it matters if you believe or not, we all fall short of God's glory.

eg8r

sack316
11-15-2010, 11:22 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We all fall short of the glory of God, except, of course, those who do not believe. </div></div>


??????? </div></div>

I, too, found that statement either confusing, or, irrational. Without an explanation of it's meaning, we'll probably never know.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif </div></div>

It means that true believers recognize we are sinners and fall far short from "perfection". On our own merits alone, none of us are worthy of the kingdom of Heaven. Only through God's grace and forgiveness are we able to reach it.

Non-believers do not have that same "measuring stick" (for lack of a better term coming to mind).

Sack </div></div>

I guess non-believers don't carry around as much guilt as a result. St. </div></div>

Guess it would depend on the individual. The believers are using their "measuring stick" (wish my brain was working and could find a better term) in relation to God's word. The non-believer may have his/her own "measuring stick" to which they judge themselves by... which may or may not be as harsh.

The believer will commit some sin or bad act, and feel guilty, yet then later find solace in grace and forgiveness and thus "absolve" him/herself from said guilt.

The non-believer will commit some bad act, and may or may not feel guilty for it. But if he/she does, they may possibly never absolve themselves of said guilt. Or they may make amends to do so... I suppose it is up to the individual themselves.

Sack

eg8r
11-15-2010, 11:24 AM
Time will tell right?

Actually, Christians have no reason to carry around guilt. If you repent of your sins and move away from them then they are forgiven. No need to think about them ever again.

eg8r

sack316
11-15-2010, 11:32 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Time will tell right?

Actually, Christians have no reason to carry around guilt. If you repent of your sins and move away from them then they are forgiven. No need to think about them ever again.

eg8r </div></div>

It's a wonderful gift, forgiveness. Of course that doesn't always apply. Reading Paul we find he carried around his guilt for all his life. But then again, that is what made him work so hard and his words so powerful as well. All part of the plan I suppose.

Sack

Gayle in MD
11-15-2010, 12:08 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We all fall short of the glory of God, except, of course, those who do not believe. </div></div>


??????? </div></div>

I, too, found that statement either confusing, or, irrational. Without an explanation of it's meaning, we'll probably never know.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif </div></div>

It means that true believers recognize we are sinners and fall far short from "perfection". On our own merits alone, none of us are worthy of the kingdom of Heaven. Only through God's grace and forgiveness are we able to reach it.

Non-believers do not have that same "measuring stick" (for lack of a better term coming to mind).

Sack </div></div>

I don't know how a believer knows what goes on in another person's mind, but In My Own Opinion, If there is a GOD, everyone falls short of the glory of God, Who is everywhere, is everyone, knows all, sees all, loves all.

If one believes that God is Love, one would not have to subscribe to the writings of mere men, nor any organized religion, in order to believe there may be a God, for example, or in order to possess a general spirituality, that we are to offer love, peace, understanding, acceptance, compassion, all things good, to every degree we could manage, as we travle though life.

At any rate, I find it absurd that anyone would subscribe to a theory that just buying into man's various interpretations of Who and What God is, or what He wants, or what one must do to be near Him, as a general "measuring stick" for whether or not a person would live a compassionate life, filled with good intentions for all, and subscribing to one's own standards of truth, loyalty, love and humanity.

One does not need to say, "I do" or "I don't" believe, in order to live a life of spiritualty. One does not HAVE to be a Christian, to have a conscience.




G.

sack316
11-15-2010, 12:17 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I don't know how a believer knows what goes on in another person's mind, but In My Own Opinion, If there is a GOD, everyone falls short of the glory of God, Who is everywhere, is everyone, knows all, sees all, loves all. </div></div>

See, you understood the comment all along! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If one believes that God is Love, one would not have to subscribe to the writings of mere men, nor any organized religion, in order to believe there may be a God, for example, or in order to possess a general spirituality, that we are to offer love, peace, understanding, acceptance, compassion, all things good, to every degree we could manage, as we travle though life.</div></div>

Very good indeed my friend

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At any rate, I find it absurd that anyone would subscribe to a theory that just buying into man's various interpretations of Who and What God is, or what He wants, or what one must do to be near Him, as a general "measuring stick" for whether or not a person would live a compassionate life, filled with good intentions for all, and subscribing to one's own standards of truth, loyalty, love and humanity.

One does not need to say, "I do" or "I don't" believe, in order to live a life of spiritualty. <u>One does not HAVE to be a Christian, to have a conscience.</u>

G. </div></div>

Nobody made that claim. In fact in a later post I said the non-believer may have an even higher standard for themselves

At any rate, we are probably all over complicating it a bit. A believer thinks the same of all man... that the believer and non-believer alike fall short of the glory of God alike. The non-believer doesn't believe, and hence does not trouble him/herself with the idea of God's expectations (for both fellow non-believers and believers alike). That in no way says they are without conscience, just without that particular measurement.

Sack

wolfdancer
11-15-2010, 12:22 PM
another political argument??

sack316
11-15-2010, 12:29 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">another political argument?? </div></div>

???

Sack

wolfdancer
11-15-2010, 12:38 PM
I believe some of the "far out" right here...one especially, comes to mind...one of the visiting guests that Hondo invited over here, that hasn't had the good sense to realize he has worn out his welcome....but I digress.
Back to my original statement...some of these folks have their religious and political beliefs intertwined. It's my own belief that if God was a registered voter....He'd be a Democrat.
The party is far from perfect; has it's own share of crooks & liars, but....using Matthew 21:12 as an allegory.....one can't worship both the Almighty, and the almighty dollar. ( soon to be replaced by the Ruble or Yuan if the borrowing trend keeps up )

ugotda7
11-15-2010, 12:53 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe some of the "far out" right here...one especially, comes to mind...one of the visiting guests that Hondo invited over here, that hasn't had the good sense to realize he has worn out his welcome....but I digress.
Back to my original statement...some of these folks have their religious and political beliefs intertwined. It's my own belief that if God was a registered voter....He'd be a Democrat.
The party is far from perfect; has it's own share of crooks & liars, but....using Matthew 21:12 as an allegory.....one can't worship both the Almighty, and the almighty dollar. ( soon to be replaced by the Ruble or Yuan if the borrowing trend keeps up ) </div></div>

I'm flattered......

Deeman3
11-15-2010, 01:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess what Dee was trying to say is if you don't believe in God then how can you (in your mind) fall short of the glory of God? As a Christian, I don't think it matters if you believe or not, we all fall short of God's glory.

eg8r </div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">Yes, I didn't think it was all that confusing nor a slight to anyone, just that we all do fall short but, of course, that requires a belief in God, while those with no faith, may have other values but their relationship to God's standards have no value nor meaning. Meaning the non-believers may be holding believers to a standard they don't accept anyway.

Most people who do not believe have very rigid thoughts on what others believe and most are wrong especially in generalization, much as I tend to do in speaking of some sensitive subjects on here. I, for instance, know my beliefs in Chrisitanity are probably much different than other Christians even in this group but all are lumped together with the most extream texts on the subject. It can serve them well for an argument but most of us understand the differences.

My faith believes that war is bad, it is sinful and is not, in most cases, a good thing. Does that mean I always support war or never support war? No. I dislike it but see it as needed rarely to prevent larger issues. Unfortunately, we may always have those who only respond to war or the threat of war to be a reasonable member of the world community. The UN was supposed to help in averting these wars but has proven so impotent and corrupt, it is mostly a waste of money, resources and time.

To some, Jesus is an idea, as much as a standard of values, to some an example. I would admit, if we tried to use his values more often in our decisions, we would, on the whole, be a better people. </span>

Gayle in MD
11-15-2010, 02:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but their relationship to God's standards have no value nor meaning. Meaning the non-believers may be holding believers to a standard they don't accept anyway.

</div></div>

So does this statement mean that you think that a person, who acknowledges to him/herself, that they do not believe in the version of God, presented by organized religion, and do not subscribe to it, yet they live a life of good deeds and honor, that their quest has no meaning, unless they believe in GOD?

How do you arrive at that consclusion?

Also, in what way do non-believers, hold believers, to any more scrutiny, than believers themselves, do in reverse, as well?

I think that it is human nature, that when one group assumes a position of moral high ground, over another, such as Christians often do, but does not practice the most basic tenents of Christianity, or the word of Jesus(such as charity, acceptance, the avoidence of GREED, avoiding glutony, condemning people for things they have no choice in to begin with) that in turn, anyone who had observed their claims of being of a higher moral ground, would be likely to notice the hypocracy they are witnessing, don't you?

G.

hondo
11-15-2010, 02:23 PM
My dear Eg, I'll try this one last time.
I'm not about to say anything I haven't said over and over.

Perhaps in your world it's not true.

In my area I know many, many people who work for low earnings with no benefits.

When they get sick, their only option is the emergency room.
ER will see you but you will be billed.
If you need to see a specialist, you're screwed.
They all want their money up front these days.
If it's not curable in ER you will be referred to a dr who will want their money up front.
If you need medicine, you have to pay for it.

So, what do the working poor do?
Pray they don't get sick.
Work on whether sick or not.
Not buy their medicine but pay their rent, gas and electric instead.

Argue all you want, friend, but I swear to our LORD Jesus Christ that I am describing the plight of many I have known over the years.
Two of my friends are in that jam right now.
I have helped them in the past but I am just not in a financial position to help them much this time.

hondo
11-15-2010, 02:26 PM
But to the believer those folks will still be judged.
Are you saying there are separate realities for believers and non-believers?

hondo
11-15-2010, 02:29 PM
I feel JC would be a somewhat liberal independent.

hondo
11-15-2010, 02:30 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ugotda7</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe some of the "far out" right here...one especially, comes to mind...one of the visiting guests that Hondo invited over here, that hasn't had the good sense to realize he has worn out his welcome....but I digress.
Back to my original statement...some of these folks have their religious and political beliefs intertwined. It's my own belief that if God was a registered voter....He'd be a Democrat.
The party is far from perfect; has it's own share of crooks & liars, but....using Matthew 21:12 as an allegory.....one can't worship both the Almighty, and the almighty dollar. ( soon to be replaced by the Ruble or Yuan if the borrowing trend keeps up ) </div></div>

I'm flattered......
</div></div>

I'm Hondo. How ya doin, big guy? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Gayle in MD
11-15-2010, 02:30 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My dear Eg, I'll try this one last time.
I'm not about to say anything I haven't said over and over.

Perhaps in your world it's not true.

In my area I know many, many people who work for low earnings with no benefits.

When they get sick, their only option is the emergency room.
ER will see you but you will be billed.
If you need to see a specialist, you're screwed.
They all want their money up front these days.
If it's not curable in ER you will be referred to a dr who will want their money up front.
If you need medicine, you have to pay for it.

So, what do the working poor do?
Pray they don't get sick.
Work on whether sick or not.
Not buy their medicine but pay their rent, gas and electric instead.

Argue all you want, friend, but I swear to our LORD Jesus Christ that I am describing the plight of many I have known over the years.
Two of my friends are in that jam right now.
I have helped them in the past but I am just not in a financial position to help them much this time. </div></div>

Ed is under the gross miscalculation, that he is above such unforseen misfortunes, in life.

I have taken in friends who were millionaires, when illness and certain other circumstances beyond their control, have hit them.

No one is above it all, regardless of how smart they think they are, or how frugal they may be.

LIfe, is what happens to us while we're making other plans.

Ed has a lot to learn.

G.

Deeman3
11-15-2010, 03:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but their relationship to God's standards have no value nor meaning. Meaning the non-believers may be holding believers to a standard they don't accept anyway.

</div></div>

So does this statement mean that you think that a person, who acknowledges to him/herself, that they do not believe in the version of God, presented by organized religion, and do not subscribe to it, yet they live a life of good deeds and honor, that their quest has no meaning, unless they believe in GOD?

<span style="color: #FF0000">No. I would never assign value to other's beliefs as far as value or conviction. I, in fact, applaud those who have no faith yet still live by principal that is "good" relative to what is generally considered positive. </span>

How do you arrive at that consclusion?

<span style="color: #FF0000">As I said, I dod not. </span>

Also, in what way do non-believers, hold believers, to any more scrutiny, than believers themselves, do in reverse, as well?

<span style="color: #FF0000"> Non-believers will take any parable or old testament story and make it a comparison to an action they see as counter to their (trhe critic's value system). That is not unexpected but misses the point of faith, IMO.</span>

I think that it is human nature, that when one group assumes a position of moral high ground, over another, such as Christians often do, but does not practice the most basic tenents of Christianity, or the word of Jesus(such as charity, acceptance, the avoidence of GREED, avoiding glutony, condemning people for things they have no choice in to begin with) that in turn, anyone who had observed their claims of being of a higher moral ground, would be likely to notice the hypocracy they are witnessing, don't you?

<span style="color: #FF0000">Of course, but it is not only Christians who assume high moral ground. They just do so based, partly, on Biblical accounts or moral direction that is easy to locate and cite. Everyone, including you, attempt to convince from what we see as a higher moral ground. In most cases, it is similar moral judgements just viewed in a different context. Of course, in God's eyes, according to our beliefs, we are not the ones to judge, but, of course, we do, as is human. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

We may see each other as evil or just wrong, God, IMO, does not care as much as we do about our differences and even our judgement nor our comdemnations.

I doubt anyone would ever try to convince from a lower moral ground! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif The hypocracy you speak of is rampant on all sides as well. </span>

</div></div>

Gayle in MD
11-15-2010, 03:16 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Of course, but it is not only Christians who assume high moral ground. They just do so based, partly, on Biblical accounts or moral direction that is easy to locate and cite</div></div>

Except they always seem to be doing it to condemn their fellow man.

Every time they make an issue out of scriptures, it is an attack on someone.

I call that coming from the lower moral ground.

Maintaining tax cuts for the wealthy, while cutting out unemployment for the needy, is not moral, at least, not according to what Jesus said.

throwing out support for the ill, and health care that helps them, is far from moral, IMO.


Holding up greed, as the new best path for the future, is surely not moral.

Pretending the trickle down theory, is best for all, is not only a lie, but absurd...after what we've witnessed.

G.

Deeman3
11-15-2010, 03:24 PM
They is too much of a blanket statement here. I don't often, maybe never, quote scripture in my arguments and don't beleive I even often say I base my decisions on scripture or my faith.

I think we mostly operate on a fairly common set of principals with how the economy works as more a practical system than a faith based decision. I may give money because my "church" or faith asks that of me. I, however, don't often ask who it feeds or their political, race or other information as the hungry don't care, nor should I.

There are reasonable differences of opinion on how tax money should be collected and spent. If only compassionate dicisions were made, we would have been all gone lonog ago.

sack316
11-15-2010, 03:36 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But to the believer those folks will still be judged.
Are you saying there are separate realities for believers and non-believers? </div></div>

I don't say anything "is" anything, because truth is I don't know for certain, and neither does anyone else. Which is why we call our beliefs "faith" rather than fact.

Now if you'd like to know my own personal belief... an atheist who is pure at heart and lives a good life has a better shot in the afterlife than a Christian who lives a dastardly life without sincere requests for forgiveness.

Do I believe in separate realities for believers and non-believers? Not at all. Everything, both physical and spiritual is what it is. I may have it right. Hindus may have it right. Jews may have it right. Atheists may have it right. etc etc etc. None of us can know for certain. But our <u>perception</u> and belief in what reality is, to each of us as individuals, can be very different... yes.

Sack

hondo
11-15-2010, 04:04 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But to the believer those folks will still be judged.
Are you saying there are separate realities for believers and non-believers? </div></div>



Do I believe in separate realities for believers and non-believers? Not at all. Everything, both physical and spiritual is what it is.

Sack </div></div>

That's all I was asking you. Thanks.

Deeman3
11-15-2010, 04:04 PM
Sack,

Well said.

sack316
11-15-2010, 04:27 PM
Thanks, I do enjoy these discussions. Always interesting to see what everyone else thinks and feels, and also good to dig down into your own thought process. For some reason it just fascinates me. Guess that's why I added religious studies to my degree /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif That still shocks people that really know me!

Sack

Gayle in MD
11-15-2010, 05:20 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They is too much of a blanket statement here. I don't often, maybe never, quote scripture in my arguments and don't beleive I even often say I base my decisions on scripture or my faith.

I think we mostly operate on a fairly common set of principals with how the economy works as more a practical system than a faith based decision. I may give money because my "church" or faith asks that of me. I, however, don't often ask who it feeds or their political, race or other information as the hungry don't care, nor should I.

There are reasonable differences of opinion on how tax money should be collected and spent. If only compassionate dicisions were made, we would have been all gone lonog ago. </div></div>

I wasn't aiming my statements at you, Deeman.

However, I think your Party, displays none of attributes that Jesus would admire.

My opinion, of course.

Gayle in MD
11-15-2010, 05:22 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But to the believer those folks will still be judged.
Are you saying there are separate realities for believers and non-believers? </div></div>

I don't say anything "is" anything, because truth is I don't know for certain, and neither does anyone else. Which is why we call our beliefs "faith" rather than fact.

Now if you'd like to know my own personal belief... an atheist who is pure at heart and lives a good life has a better shot in the afterlife than a Christian who lives a dastardly life without sincere requests for forgiveness.

Do I believe in separate realities for believers and non-believers? Not at all. Everything, both physical and spiritual is what it is. I may have it right. Hindus may have it right. Jews may have it right. Atheists may have it right. etc etc etc. None of us can know for certain. But our <u>perception</u> and belief in what reality is, to each of us as individuals, can be very different... yes.

Sack </div></div>

Tap Tap Tap...

Sev
11-16-2010, 09:16 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe some of the "far out" right here...one especially, comes to mind...one of the visiting guests that Hondo invited over here, that hasn't had the good sense to realize he has worn out his welcome....but I digress.
Back to my original statement...some of these folks have their religious and political beliefs intertwined. It's my own belief that if God was a registered voter....He'd be a Democrat.
The party is far from perfect; has it's own share of crooks & liars, but....using Matthew 21:12 as an allegory.....one can't worship both the Almighty, and the almighty dollar. ( soon to be replaced by the Ruble or Yuan if the borrowing trend keeps up ) </div></div>

Actually God would not be a democrat. Have you ever read the story of Nimrod and Babylon?
God believes in the individual, exceptionalism and self reliance.
Not dependency and handouts.

wolfdancer
11-17-2010, 03:16 AM
"dependency and handouts."
I guess that since I now receive social security....you believe that to be a federal "handout". It is in fact, insurance , and
based on sound actuarial tables. It would have been financially stable had it not been raided for other purposes by both parties.
Probably now though, the only thing that can save it would be Soylent Green
I've never applied for any Government "handouts", but did get a couple of unemployment checks once.( The Eisenhower era recession). I believe with a 55 yr work history I may have already reimbursed them for that.
I'm so glad to hear that everybody that voted for GW, was/is very self reliant, and has planned for, set aside funds for, every emergency, including loss of employment,debilitating illness, and death or disability of the primary wage earner, a weather related catastrophe....or just the common cyclical events... fire, famine, pestilence.
I guess that liberals and democrats are just genetically predisposed to become welfare recipients. Good thing we have wars about every twenty years, as that tends to "thin the herd" a bit, allowing the exempt Republican war profiteers,er, investors, to bulk their fortunes back up,... securing them in foreign bank accounts, and foreign investments....You know, like the Rockefellers, and Prescott Bush did,...investing in I.G.Farben,

Qtec
11-17-2010, 04:02 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Soon some men arrived carrying a paralytic and they kept trying to carry him in to put him down in front of Jesus. When they failed to find a way of getting him in because of the dense crowd, they went up on to the top of the house and let him down, bed and all, through the tiles, into the middle of the crowd in front of Jesus. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, "My friend, your sins are forgiven."

The scribes and the Pharisees began to argue about this, saying, "Who is this man who talks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins? Only God can do that."

Jesus realised what was going on in their minds and spoke straight to them.

"Why must you argue like this in your minds? Which do you suppose is easier - to say, 'Your sins are forgiven' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? But to make you realise that the Son of Man has full authority on earth to forgive sins - I tell you," he said to the man who was paralysed, "get up, pick up your bed and go home!"

Instantly the man sprang to his feet before their eyes, picked up the bedding on which he used to lie, and went off home, praising God. </div></div>


Then Jesus sent him a bill for $200,000, the guy couldn't pay Jesus repossesses his house and throws him out into the street.

That's today's GOP Christianity.


Jesus said,

" Look dude, if you didn't read the small print that's not my problem! Who works for free? That sounds like Marxism to me. "



Q

hondo
11-17-2010, 06:36 AM
Excellent post, Wolfie. Dead on!

hondo
11-17-2010, 06:37 AM
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

wolfdancer
11-17-2010, 05:44 PM
Is that in the Tom Dewey version of the Bible, as I don't remember that story in my synoptic version?

hondo
11-17-2010, 06:26 PM
It's in there, bro. I remember it.