PDA

View Full Version : i have a rules question



kick_shot_king
12-07-2010, 11:13 PM
i have watched lots of players when breaking miss the rack when breaking and then they grab the ball and try again...is this a foul or does the game not begin until the balls r hit. Normally in my room the opponent just send s the cueball baCK FOR THE PERSON TO TRY AGAIN AND THAT IS FINE WITH ME, AS LONG AS ITS A CONSISTENT RULE,BUT I JUST WANTED TO KNOW WHAT ONE OF THE BODY OF RULES STATES ABOUT SUCH AN OCCURANCE

Fran Crimi
12-08-2010, 08:26 AM
That's a good question. I think there have been a lot of variations on that rule over the years. The way I've always understood the world standardized rule is that the game does not begin until the cue ball proceeds past the head string. So, if you or your opponent should miscue behind the head string with the cue ball remaining there, you can start again with no penalty. Once the cue ball passes the head string though, the game has begun and it's a foul if you miss the rack.

Once a foul is called the player must give up their turn at the table and their opponent will then take ball in hand behind the head string because it is an opening break shot --- and the rack of balls is reracked or retightened. If the rack has been legally opened and the shooter scratches, then it's ball in hand to the opponent anywhere on the table.

Many players mistakenly identify the term 'legal' as a shot with no negative consequences to the shooter. That's not true. You can perform a legal break shot and still scratch. An illegal break shot would call for a rerack --- as with the cue ball not hitting the rack and the turn turned over to the opponent.

That's probably too much information. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif

12-08-2010, 10:30 AM
Just to muddy up the waters...

What about if there is an illegal break, with the CB passing the head string i.e. playing 9 ball and you fail to hit the 1 ball first?

My understanding is that the opponent has BIH anywhere on the table?


Eric

Fran Crimi
12-08-2010, 04:33 PM
Eric you're right about BIH anywhere. The only thing is that it's not an illegal break.

Rule 2.3 in World Standardized 9-Ball Rules states: It's considered legal if:

a.) The CB begins in hand behind the head string.

b.) If no ball is pocketed, at least four object balls must be driven to one or more rails.

So this would be a case of a legal break with a foul. Some may consider it 'illegal' but I don't interpret the rule that way.

I don't think this 'legal' --- 'illegal' stuff it totally consistent within the rules anymore, unfortunately, because over the years the rules were modified. Whenever you modify something, you have to change everything connected in all pool games for it to be consistent. It's hard to do, especially when different people are doing the modifying at different times.

Rich R.
12-09-2010, 05:42 AM
Let me throw a little more mud in the water and say that the best answer to the original question is that it depends on what set of rules you are using to play.

I'm sure Fran is dead on concerning the World rules. I'm not sure, but I would think that the BCA rules follow that lead. However, without looking it up, I believe in the APA the breaker gets a second chance to make a legal break, with a required number of balls hitting rails.

Concerning the original question, I think some house rules, whether official or not, come into play and probably trump all of the other official rules. If it is the common practice, or the house rule, in that room for the breaker to get another chance, he gets another chance, period.

Chopstick
12-09-2010, 02:30 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The way I've always understood the world standardized rule is that the game does not begin until the cue ball proceeds past the head string. </div></div>

That was my understanding as well. There was a variation of that at the OPT here in Orlando. You could place the cue ball behind the head string with your hand but if you used your stick to adjust it, like move it over an inch, it was a foul. I don't know what the thinking was behind that.

Fran Crimi
12-09-2010, 03:54 PM
I remember that rule but if it's used for the break shot then it's been taken out of context. The rule was invented for situations during play, where it was difficult to determine when a player had BIH, if they were setting up their shot or if they just miscued. After several instances of confusion and misunderstandings, it was decided that there would be a ban on any movement of the cue ball with the cue stick once it was placed on the table with BIH.

I believe that rule has again been changed to where players are now allowed to adjust the cue ball with their cue stick again when they have BIH as long as they are not in their shooting stance. So some may still be following the old rule and some may not.

kick_shot_king
12-09-2010, 09:51 PM
thanks Fran ,its been a long time since i have read a rule book ,but that was how i remembered it too...boy ,so many people do not play that way. I wonder if i should bring that rule up at the next weekly tournament or just let that dog sleep..anyways thanks for your reply

kick shots r better then jump shots...lol...sometimes..lol

kick_shot_king
12-09-2010, 09:54 PM
Yeah Rich its that way most places i have played even at the bigger tournaments where even pro players are in attendance . They kind of abide by whatever the house rule is

Fran Crimi
12-10-2010, 08:38 AM
I know what you mean. It's a tough call as to whether to bring it up or not.

For a lot of people, it's just easier to make something up rather than research it. Official rules have a logic to them so that there is a consistency throughout. When someone changes a rule for a local tournament, they could be upsetting the logic of the entire set of rules. Some rules, however, can be modified without any major damage to their continuity, but changes should be well researched instead of being arbitrarily applied.



Understandably, some folks don't even know how to read the official rules. There are three sections: General Rules, Regulations, and Rules specific to each game. General Rules and Regulations apply to all games. When they look something up, they have to look in all three places, not just the rules specific to their game.

Brian in VA
12-10-2010, 10:59 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Eric you're right about BIH anywhere. The only thing is that it's not an illegal break.

Rule 2.3 in World Standardized 9-Ball Rules states: It's considered legal if:

a.) The CB begins in hand behind the head string.

b.) If no ball is pocketed, at least four object balls must be driven to one or more rails.

So this would be a case of a legal break with a foul. Some may consider it 'illegal' but I don't interpret the rule that way.

I don't think this 'legal' --- 'illegal' stuff it totally consistent within the rules anymore, unfortunately, because over the years the rules were modified. Whenever you modify something, you have to change everything connected in all pool games for it to be consistent. It's hard to do, especially when different people are doing the modifying at different times. </div></div>
Hey Fran,

Isn't this superceded by the rule about having to hit the lowest numbered ball on the table first? I'm at work and can't get to a rules site right now but I'm pretty sure that's the case. Because the breaker hasn't done that, it's a foul and the incoming player has BIH.

Brian in VA

Fran Crimi
12-10-2010, 12:40 PM
Not really superceded, Brian, but you're right. The first thing that must be satisfied is if it's a legal break. If no, then the balls are reracked and the opponent breaks. If yes, it is a legal break, then the next question is: Was it a foul or a good hit? If it was a foul, then yes, it's BIH anywhere.

So in the case of breaking open the balls and not striking the one ball first, (assuming the criteria for a legal break is met)it is both a legal break and a foul, and incoming player gets BIH anywhere. The incoming player wouldn't be able to get BIH anywhere if the break wasn't legal.

Brian in VA
12-10-2010, 01:49 PM
So the legal break rule has to be satisfied first? Wow, that's good to know, Fran.

Thanks!
Brian in VA

Fran Crimi
12-10-2010, 02:24 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brian in VA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So the legal break rule has to be satisfied first? Wow, that's good to know, Fran.

Thanks!
Brian in VA</div></div>

Yup. I just have one clarification in blue on the first paragraph I wrote:

Not really superceded, Brian, but you're right. The first thing that must be satisfied is if it's a legal break. If no, then the balls are reracked <span style="color: #000099">, the original breaker is charged with a foul and gives up his turn, </span> and the opponent breaks. If yes, it is a legal break, then the next question is: Was it a foul or a good hit? If it was a foul, then yes, it's BIH anywhere.