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Gayle in MD
12-13-2010, 07:26 AM
Should be quite a week ahead. The Senate is going to take a vote on the Obama/GOP tax deal later today -- sometime after 2 PM ET. It will pass. Then, it's over to the House.

Once the tax bill is done, the Senate calendar should clear to provide space for other issues. START remains a top priority for the President. There will be a vote on the House-passed DREAM Act and, then, there's the DADT repeal. It's a free-standing bill so only needs an up-or-down vote. Several GOPers besides Susan Collins, including Brown and Murkowski, claim to support repeal. So, the big question is who this plays out. Should be a no-brainer. Our allies will have to file cloture, but we should have the votes needed. Let's see if Collins can deliver. If we start hearing noises about the need for amendments or a lot of time for debate, we'll know that Mitch McConnell has told his caucus that the bill won't pass. Don't forget, McConnell is really calling the shots here, not Collins.

Last Friday, SLDN and several other pro-repeal groups held a rally on Capitol Hill with the message to the Senate: Don't Go home til repeal is done. One of the speakers was 23 year old discharged Marine, Danny Hernandez. He told the crowd that he was ready to serve again -- and that he was ready to die for his country. Meet Danny. He's what this debate is about.

http://www.americablog.com/2010/12/monday-morning-open-thread_13.html

<span style="color: #990000">Will Republicans continue their support of the Radical, hate filled, Religious right, in this country, by failing to respcet the G & L soliders, or continue to back the pigs, who spread homophobia, and lies about Gays, hate and social division, for plitical gain, which we get non stop, on Fux Noise, and through Limpballs, Beck, McInsane, Palin and Bachman?

Will Republicans continue to overlook their own very many gay members, who hide in the closet, while those same Gay members, are voting against Gay Rights?

How does McInsane, justify his anti Gay rhetoric, when he had a closeted Gay Senator, by his side, throughout his campaign????</span>

pooltchr
12-13-2010, 09:17 AM
If you are not serving, or have never served, in the military, your opinion on the subject is pretty much worthless....like so many of your opinions.

You obviously have no idea the problems repealing this law would have on our troops. And further more, it seems you really don't care.

Steve

eg8r
12-13-2010, 09:22 AM
Wow, everything that was typed in black seemed like a sensible person. Once the type went red it was totally different. Sensibility went out the window and a sense of hate swept right in.

I think that after this tax bill goes into effect all Congress should be shut down until the new Congress has a chance to step in. The first order of business should be to put the HC bill on hold till each Congress person has been forced to read every single page. Pelosi actually should stand at the podium for hours at a time reading it to everyone. After that they should start working on real tax reform. Close ALL loop holes, lower the tax rate (this does mean actual taxes could go up) and get the tax code down to about 20 pages or so. No reason it should be as complicated as it is. I think abolishing the IRS would actually save us more money than any cut in defense spending. It is time Obama gets serious about our more serious matters.

eg8r

sack316
12-13-2010, 11:08 AM
On the DADT, I think it's simply a matter of whether or not those that are already there can be open with their lifestyle. I'm fortunate to know a lot of people that serve (Maxwell and Gunter AFB are right here), and I'll tell you there are a lot of gay and bisexual active duty members of our armed forces.

Honestly, I don't think we civilians or those in Washington should decide. I think we should allow a vote consisting of only active duty military... and what they say goes when it comes to their lives and workplace.

Sack

Gayle in MD
12-13-2010, 11:17 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On the DADT, I think it's simply a matter of whether or not those that are already there can be open with their lifestyle. I'm fortunate to know a lot of people that serve (Maxwell and Gunter AFB are right here), and I'll tell you there are a lot of gay and bisexual active duty members of our armed forces.

Honestly, I don't think we civilians or those in Washington should decide. I think we should allow a vote consisting of only active duty military... and what they say goes when it comes to their lives and workplace.

Sack </div></div>

I have to disagree with you, Sack.

I think that when it comes to minorities, any minority, getting equal treatment, under the laws of our land, that taking a vote, goes against everything this country is supposed to stand for, truly.

Our Military Leaders, are all on board, as far as I know, and they have sent out questionaires, which, as far as I know, did not reveal any big resistance to all being treated equally.

It's wrong, to discriminate against others, due to ethnicity, sexual orientation, or gender, IMO. And, IMO, taking a vote, from the majority, is the worst way to handle it. Blacks and women, wouldn't even be voting right now, if all of the white men could have had a vote on it!

It's unconstitutional to discriminate against minority groups.

The Military, of all groups, in this nation, should stand behind every single person who is willing to serve their country, the same way, regardless of their particular sexual persuasion.

G.

sack316
12-13-2010, 11:34 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On the DADT, I think it's simply a matter of whether or not those that are already there can be open with their lifestyle. I'm fortunate to know a lot of people that serve (Maxwell and Gunter AFB are right here), and I'll tell you there are a lot of gay and bisexual active duty members of our armed forces.

Honestly, I don't think we civilians or those in Washington should decide. I think we should allow a vote consisting of only active duty military... and what they say goes when it comes to their lives and workplace.

Sack </div></div>

I have to disagree with you, Sack.

I think that when it comes to minorities, any minority, getting equal treatment, under the laws of our land, that taking a vote, goes against everything this country is supposed to stand for, truly.

Our Military Leaders, are all on board, as far as I know, and they have sent out questionaires, which, as far as I know, did not reveal any big resistance to all being treated equally.

It's wrong, to discriminate against others, due to ethnicity, sexual orientation, or gender, IMO. And, IMO, taking a vote, from the majority, is the worst way to handle it. Blacks and women, wouldn't even be voting right now, if all of the white men could have had a vote on it!

It's unconstitutional to discriminate against minority groups.

The Military, of all groups, in this nation, should stand behind every single person who is willing to serve their country, the same way, regardless of their particular sexual persuasion.

G. </div></div>

The civil right of voting for women and African Americans is an entirely different thing from workplace environment, IMO. Now personally, I do think DADT should be repealed and anyone who wishes to volunteer and serve our country should be allowed to do so. I just happen to also think it's not my place as a civilian to decide that for our Armed Forces.

As far as discrimination, the military is based wholeheartedly in many forms of discrimination. There are many certain physical and character requirements that must be met to serve there, that are otherwise not allowed legally in normal workplaces. I do realize that is apples to oranges there, but my point is some forms of discrimination are allowed for the well being of the unit as a whole.

Which is why I think THEY should decide. If a large portion of those serving feel it will be of no consequence to their job to serve with an openly gay colleague then by all means repeal it! If a large portion feel it will somehow hamper their abilities to serve and do their job effectively, then their side on the matter must be taken into consideration too... regardless of our own personal feelings on the matter.

Again, I'm personally for repealing it... just don't think it's my place to decide for them, though.

Sack

Gayle in MD
12-13-2010, 12:04 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On the DADT, I think it's simply a matter of whether or not those that are already there can be open with their lifestyle. I'm fortunate to know a lot of people that serve (Maxwell and Gunter AFB are right here), and I'll tell you there are a lot of gay and bisexual active duty members of our armed forces.

Honestly, I don't think we civilians or those in Washington should decide. I think we should allow a vote consisting of only active duty military... and what they say goes when it comes to their lives and workplace.

Sack </div></div>

I have to disagree with you, Sack.

I think that when it comes to minorities, any minority, getting equal treatment, under the laws of our land, that taking a vote, goes against everything this country is supposed to stand for, truly.

Our Military Leaders, are all on board, as far as I know, and they have sent out questionaires, which, as far as I know, did not reveal any big resistance to all being treated equally.

It's wrong, to discriminate against others, due to ethnicity, sexual orientation, or gender, IMO. And, IMO, taking a vote, from the majority, is the worst way to handle it. Blacks and women, wouldn't even be voting right now, if all of the white men could have had a vote on it!

It's unconstitutional to discriminate against minority groups.

The Military, of all groups, in this nation, should stand behind every single person who is willing to serve their country, the same way, regardless of their particular sexual persuasion.

G. </div></div>

The civil right of voting for women and African Americans is an entirely different thing from workplace environment, IMO. Now personally, I do think DADT should be repealed and anyone who wishes to volunteer and serve our country should be allowed to do so. I just happen to also think it's not my place as a civilian to decide that for our Armed Forces.

As far as discrimination, the military is based wholeheartedly in many forms of discrimination. There are many certain physical and character requirements that must be met to serve there, that are otherwise not allowed legally in normal workplaces. I do realize that is apples to oranges there, but my point is some forms of discrimination are allowed for the well being of the unit as a whole.

Which is why I think THEY should decide. If a large portion of those serving feel it will be of no consequence to their job to serve with an openly gay colleague then by all means repeal it! If a large portion feel it will somehow hamper their abilities to serve and do their job effectively, then their side on the matter must be taken into consideration too... regardless of our own personal feelings on the matter.

Again, I'm personally for repealing it... just don't think it's my place to decide for them, though.

Sack </div></div>

I don't think it's my place to decide for them either. It shouldn't even be questioned, IMO, we stand for equal rights, in this couuntry, and against discrimination.

In this case, the entire top military Brass, including the Secretary Of Defense, and the Joint chiefs of Staff, our President, and the Chairman of the JCOS, have all spoken on the matter, and support ending discrimination against our Gay and Lesbian, soldiers.

They have already taken into consideration, the opinions of our soldiers, as I u8understand it, and there is nothing holding this back, except for Republicans trying to do what they alwasys do, prevent social progress, block inclusion, and acceptance of others, without discrimination, causing more social unrest, by being against social progress, in order to exploit the RW religious zealots, who think they have the right to dictate to all others, according to their personal religious beliefs.

Nothing that is based on a lie, can ever be the correct course of action, IMO.

As the Military Leaders have stated, that, in and of itself, goes against the entire Military Philosophy, forcing people to lie about who they are.

It's wrong.

But giving people, any Americans, the right to decide by a majority vote, if "Some" will be discriminated against, instead of honoring what our country stands for, is the most unAmerican idea, I can imagine.

We don't vote on equal rights in this country. Those issues have already been settled law. Equal rights is the American Way, in all other venues, and protected by the Constitution, and the laws of our land.

G.

Deeman3
12-13-2010, 12:29 PM
Let the serving soldiers decide. They have their own way of sorting this out in the field.

Gayle in MD
12-13-2010, 12:31 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let the serving soldiers decide. They have their own way of sorting this out in the field. </div></div>

The supreme Court Decided on this issue, long ago.

Equal Rights For ALL.

End of Story.

sack316
12-13-2010, 12:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let the serving soldiers decide. </div></div>

My sentiments exactly.

Sack

sack316
12-13-2010, 12:40 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
[b] The supreme Court Decided on this issue, long ago.

</div></div>

They also ruled not so long ago (about a month ago IIRC) that the continuation of DADT was permissible.

Sack

pooltchr
12-13-2010, 12:42 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let the serving soldiers decide. They have their own way of sorting this out in the field. </div></div>

We did back in my day...and I'm sure they still do.

Steve

LWW
12-13-2010, 12:49 PM
DADT is more Clinton era stupidity.

The only real issue the military has had with gays is that when nearly all gays were in the closet they represented a very real security risk due to how they could be blackmailed.

DADT helps to keep that alive.

LWW

Gayle in MD
12-13-2010, 12:51 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The supreme Court Decided on this issue, long ago.

</div></div>

They also ruled not so long ago (about a month ago IIRC) that the continuation of DADT was permissible.

Sack </div></div>

[b]That isn't really what the were ruling on, the Administration sought a temporary, ruling....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Supreme Court issued an order Friday afternoon allowing the Obama Administration to continue to enforce the “don’t ask, don’t tell” ban on openly gay military members <span style='font-size: 14pt'>while the Justice Department appeals a lower court ruling that found the policy is unconstitutional. </span>


Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1110/45046.html#ixzz181DvsGvh </div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The unconstitutionality of DADT, is obvious, IMO.

What does the right not understand about "Equal Rights For All"

As for the rtoops, they hae already indicated that it isn't a problem for them.

That sentiment, has been also supported by the ALL of the Military Leaders, and the Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates.

Do you really think that a human right, should be voted on, by a majority?

That goes against everything this country stands for!

We have a volunteer military. If they don't like it, they can leave.

The vast majority, are not against Gays and Lesbians, serving in the military, we already know this.

The constitution supports equal rights for all. We already know this, as well.

Religious beliefs about Gays and Lesbians, have no place in our society, nor in our Military.

G.

</div></div>

Gayle in MD
12-15-2010, 01:40 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let the serving soldiers decide. They have their own way of sorting this out in the field. </div></div>

http://mediamatters.org/research/201012100021

Perkins Falsely Suggests DADT Repeal Lacks Public, Military Support
December 10, 2010 1:52 pm ET — 27 Comments
In a Washington Times op-ed, Family Research Council president Tony Perkins falsely suggested that repealing "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" lacks support from military officials and the public. In fact, numerous military officials and an overwhelming majority of Americans support repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

Perkins Says Mullen Is "The One Prominent Military Supporter" Of Repealing DADT
Perkins: "The One Prominent Military Supporter Of President Obama's Proposal" To Repeal DADT is Adm. Mullen. In his September 9 column, Perkins stated, "The one prominent military supporter of President Obama's proposal is his chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Adm. Michael Mullen." From Perkins' column:

The one prominent military supporter of President Obama's proposal is his chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Adm. Michael Mullen.

But Adm. Mullen's views are clearly outside of the military mainstream, as his testimony reveals. Adm. Mullen said that "should repeal occur, some soldiers and Marines may want separate shower facilities, some may ask for different berthing, some may even quit the service. We'll deal with that." [Perkins' Washington Times op-ed, 12/9/10]

In Fact, Numerous Military Officials Besides Mullen Support Repealing DADT
More Than 100 Retired Generals and Admirals Have Called For DADT's Repeal. The Palm Center, a University of California research institute, has posted on its website a list of more than 100 retired generals and admirals who "support the recent comments of former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General John Shalikashvili, who has concluded that repealing the 'don't ask, don't tell' policy would not harm and would indeed help our armed forces." [palmcenter.org, accessed 12/10/10]

Gates: "I Fully Support" Decision To Repeal DADT. In his February 2 testimony, Defense Secretary Robert Gates stated:

GATES: Chairman, last week during the State of the Union Address, the president announced he will work with Congress this year to repeal the law known as "don't ask, don't tell." He subsequently directed the Department of Defense to begin the preparations necessary for a repeal of the current law and policy. I fully support the president's decision. [Senate testimony, 2/2/10]

Former Defense Secretary and Former Vice President Dick Cheney has called for repeal. During a February 14 interview on ABC's This Week, when asked whether it is "time to allow gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military," former Defense Secretary and Vice President Dick Cheney replied:

CHENEY: Well, I think the society has moved on. I think it's partly a generational question. I say I'm reluctant to second-guess the military in this regard because they're the ones who have got to make the judgment about how these policies affect the military capability of our, of our units. And that first requirement that you have to look at all the time is whether they're still capable of achieving their mission and does the policy change i.e. putting gays in the force, affect their ability to perform their mission. When the chiefs come forward and say we think we can do it, then it strikes me that it's time to reconsider the policy. And I think Admiral Mullen's said that. [thinkprogress.org, 2/14/10]

Gen. Powell Stated His Support For Allowing Gays and Lesbians To Serve, Cited Change In "Attitudes And Circumstances." A February 4 Washington Post article reported:

Retired Army Gen. Colin L. Powell, whose opposition to allowing gay men and lesbians to serve openly in the military helped lead to adoption of the "don't ask, don't tell" legislation 17 years ago, said Wednesday that he now thinks the restrictive law should be repealed.

"Attitudes and circumstances have changed," Powell said. "It's been a whole generation" since the legislation was adopted, and there is increased "acceptance of gays and lesbians in society," he said. "Society is always reflected in the military. It's where we get our soldiers from." [The Washington Post, 2/4/10]

Gen. Shalikashvili called for repeal of DADT and open service by gays and lesbians. In a January 2007 New York Times op-ed, General John Shalikashvili, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff when DADT was implemented, wrote:

I now believe that if gay men and lesbians served openly in the United States military, they would not undermine the efficacy of the armed forces.

[...]

By taking a measured, prudent approach to change, political and military leaders can focus on solving the nation's most pressing problems while remaining genuinely open to the eventual and inevitable lifting of the ban. [The New York Times, 1/2/07]

Gen. Jones: "[Y]oung Men And Women Who Wish To Serve Their Country Should Not Have To Lie In Order To Do That." In a February 14 interview on CNN's State of the Union, Gen. James Jones, currently the National Security Adviser, stated:

JONES: I think that what Secretary Gates and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff articulated in testimony is the right thing to do. I think the president has signaled his intent. This is a policy that has to evolve with the social norms of what's acceptable and what's not. [Transcript of CNN's February 14 State of the Union transcript, accessed 12/10/10]

Asked whether it's "time to lift" DADT, Jones replied:

JONES: I think times have changed. I think I was very much taken by Admiral Mullen's view that young men and women who wish to serve their country should not have to lie in order to do that. [Transcript of CNN's February 14 State of the Union transcript, accessed 12/10/10]

Pentagon Report: "70-76% Of Service Members Said Repeal Would Have A Positive, A Mixed, Or No Effect On Aspects Of Task Cohesion." According to the Pentagon's recently released report on Don't Ask, Don't Tell, when asked about the effect of repeal on task cohesion, personal readiness, and unit readiness, majorities of the service members surveyed said they expected a "positive, mixed, or no effect." From the report [emphasis added]:

The Service member survey asked a number of questions on Service members' views about the effect of repeal on unit cohesion, including task and social cohesion. Task cohesion is a unit's ability to work together effectively, whereas social cohesion is a unit's ability to get along and trust one another. Overall, 70-76% of Service members said repeal would have a positive, a mixed, or no effect on aspects of task cohesion. Similarly, 67-78% of Service members said repeal would have a positive, mixed, or no effect on aspects of social cohesion. [Pentagon report on Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Page 64, 11/30/10]

Perkins Suggests Majority Of Americans Do Not Support DADT Repeal
Perkins: "Vast Majority" Of Americans "Stand With The Marines" Who Oppose DADT Repeal. From Perkins' op-ed:

But possible policy consequences of overturning DADT aside, Democrats should remember that 63 House members were fired from Congress because they obeyed Mrs. Pelosi, Mr. Obama and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid instead of the American people. The 23 Democratic senators up for re-election in 2012 might want to consider how they will address veterans groups and religious organizations regarding their vote.

On Nov. 2, the American people rejected this rush mentality to passing legislation. Liberals are demanding that DADT be overturned now, but the Marines say no. We stand with the Marines, and so do the vast majority of the American people. Yesterday's cloture vote means the message might be getting through. [Perkins' Washington Times op-ed, 12/10/10]

Many Recent Polls Find Public Overwhelmingly Supports Gay Men And Lesbians Serving Openly In The Military

Gallup: 67% "Support Repealing 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell.'" A Gallup poll conducted December 3-6 found that "67% of Americans say they would vote for a law that would allow gays and lesbians to serve openly in the U.S. military." Twenty-eight percent opposed repealing the law. The poll findings added, "More than 60% of Americans since 2005 have said they favor allowing openly gay men and lesbian women to serve in the U.S. military, including majorities of the most conservative segments of the population." [Gallup.com, 12/9/10]

CBS News: 69% Favor "Allow[ing] Gay Men And Lesbians To Serve Openly In The Military." A CBS News poll conducted November 29 through December 2 found that 69 percent favor "Allow[ing] Gay Men And Lesbians To Serve Openly In The Military," while 23 percent oppose it. [CBS News poll, 12/3/10]

CNN/Opinion Research: 72% Favor Permitting Openly Gay And Lesbian Soldiers To Serve. A CNN/Opinion Research poll conducted by November 11-14 found that 72 percent of respondents favored "permitting people who are openly gay or lesbian to serve in the military." [CNN/Opinion Research poll, accessed 12/10/10]

Pew Research Center: 58% "Favor Allowing Homosexuals To Serve Openly In The Armed Forces." A Pew Research Center poll conducted November 4-7 found that "most Americans (58%) favor allowing homosexuals to serve openly in the armed forces." The poll findings noted, "Fewer than half that number (27%) oppose allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly." [Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, 11/29/10]

Quinnipiac: 58% Support Repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell. A November Quinnipiac poll asked, "Federal law currently prohibits openly gay men and women from serving in the military. Do you think this law should be repealed or not?" Fifty-eight percent of respondents said "yes" while 34 percent said "no." [Quinnipiac poll, 11/18/10]

pooltchr
12-15-2010, 07:03 PM
So 100 retired admirals and generals support the repeal.

How about the active duty soldiers and sailors? They are the ones who will be most impacted by any change. It's easy to support something, when you are retired, and it won't affect you.

Steve

Qtec
12-15-2010, 07:15 PM
I agree, let the troops decide.


"OK guys, anyone feel up to a mission tomorrow?
.....Nah, its Monday night football!"........
OK..............I guess that's a no then. .........Oh BTW...Breakfast is at 06.30......
.....can we make that 8.30?...
.....sure.....whatever you guys want.....
...thanks Sarg.............can you give us a wake up call?.........."


I thought that in the Army the orders came from the top down, not from the bottom up!
Smacks of communism if you ask me. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Q

Gayle in MD
12-16-2010, 08:27 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let the serving soldiers decide. They have their own way of sorting this out in the field. </div></div>


Pentagon Report: "70-76% Of Service Members Said Repeal Would Have A Positive, A Mixed, Or No Effect On Aspects Of Task Cohesion." According to the Pentagon's recently released report on Don't Ask, Don't Tell, when asked about the effect of repeal on task cohesion, personal readiness, and unit readiness, majorities of the service members surveyed said they expected a "positive, mixed, or no effect." From the report [emphasis added]:

Bump...