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Harry B
12-30-2010, 11:37 PM
In recently viewed pro 9-Ball tournaments I've notice that the rack was moved up so that center 9 ball was at the foot spot.
Does anyone know why they've moved it up? Is it now common practice in pro events? or is it an event by event decision as to where the rack will be placed?

Lux
12-31-2010, 04:08 AM
From what I gather, the 9 ball is supposed to be on the spot when racking. Personally, I haven't seen it any other way, except for 8 ball.

Tony_in_MD
12-31-2010, 09:07 AM
Is this common practice... depends upon the tourney director. Moving the 9 on the spot keeps the wing balls out of play of the corner pockets on the break. It however makes it easier to pocket the 1 ball in the side with a soft controlled break.

at the US open the placement of the rack is decided by the tourney director and the players. At last years open, the one ball was racked on the foot spot, with the winner racking for him/her self.

I have seen the tourney played in the past with the 9 on the spot.

Fran Crimi
12-31-2010, 09:21 AM
No, that should never be. The one ball should always be racked on the spot in 9-Ball. If not, then it is a violation of the rules.

Now, having said that, I do know of many instances when the 9 was racked on the spot. I vehemently oppose it and hope that all involved will respect the rules of the game rather than make their own rules.

Rich R.
12-31-2010, 09:38 AM
IIRC, they started moving the rack forward when the Sardo rack was in common use. Evidently, with the Sardo rack, it was hard for the pros to NOT make a wing ball on the break. Moving the rack wasn't the answer because a number of pro players were able to make the one ball in the side pocket consistently with a soft break.

My opinion follows the rules and that means putting the one ball on the spot. In pro tournaments, it would be great if they had independent rackers and stopped the players from examining the racks. JMHO.

Sid_Vicious
12-31-2010, 10:25 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, that should never be. The one ball should always be racked on the spot in 9-Ball. If not, then it is a violation of the rules.

Now, having said that, I do know of many instances when the 9 was racked on the spot. I vehemently oppose it and hope that all involved will respect the rules of the game rather than make their own rules.</div></div>

"and hope that all involved will respect the rules of the game rather than make their own rules"

Amen! sid

JJFSTAR
12-31-2010, 11:39 AM
Just curious why stop the players from examining the rack?

Harry B
01-01-2011, 11:54 AM
Just an FYI on this...The last tournament I saw this used in was the 2010 Women's Champion of Champions. It looks like it is pretty common.

Bambu
01-01-2011, 12:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just curious why stop the players from examining the rack?</div></div>

Predator tour rules say the same thing, no rack checking. I never asked about it, but I agree.....why not? Some guys tilt the rack towards the wing ball they like to make. Should that be ok? Without marking the table, no real way around that. Nothing I can think of anyway. Others put small spaces around the 9 ball, or other balls they want more action on. Again, not cool but the alternative might be worse.

It seems that by todays standards, racking is a skill in itself.
I guess it's not so bad once you realize that, since you are free to counter whatever your opponent does. I suppose its better than people nit picking about racks. Theres always a few who will make a disaster out of a match if they dont like the rack.

JoeW
01-01-2011, 12:43 PM
See Joe Tucker's Racking Secrets. Gaps between balls can be used to the player's advantage.

Sid_Vicious
01-01-2011, 02:23 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">See Joe Tucker's Racking Secrets. Gaps between balls can be used to the player's advantage.</div></div>

I like gaps myself. If I was racking for my own breaks, gaps would be good, yet I'd by nature, not use it today. I always like super tight racks. There could be a lot of fun from breaking a loose rack of my own invention though ;-) sid

Soflasnapper
01-01-2011, 02:57 PM
At the US Open this year, they went with breaker racks his own.

In an early match that I didn't see, I think it was Dennis Orcuello v. Archer, where Dennis got out to a big early lead with a couple of 9s on the break, and maybe some early combos on the 9 where the 9 had run to the foot corner pocket.

Eventually, a lot of players were looking at the racks the opponent had given himself to avoid getting jobbed by the opponent who was putting down a rack mechanic's dream.

I don't think the answer to racking that gives oneself an advantage is to let the other person do the same thing. What if you are committed to giving yourself as good a rack as possible, and would never somewhat 'cheat' to favor the 9's moving, and your opponent thinks it's fine to do that? Too much advantage given away, IMO.

Bambu
01-01-2011, 05:52 PM
You might consider that cheating, but if you cant complain it's playing within the rules. I can see a Joe Schmo player like me having to play with loose rules like that, but Johnny at the US Open? Where were the refs with the white gloves? And 9 ball on the break counts? Jeez, who makes up these rules?

Rich R.
01-02-2011, 06:18 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just curious why stop the players from examining the rack? </div></div>
Please note, I suggested an independent racker and no examining of the racks. They have to go together to make it work. This way, the racker couldn't manipulate the rack and, if there were some hair line gaps, the breaker couldn't read those gaps and make it work to his advantage. In either case, a match wouldn't get held up for 10 minutes everytime they had to rack, like I have seen at some tournaments including the U.S. Open.

Tony_in_MD
01-04-2011, 06:15 AM
As far as I am concerned the best break rules for 9 ball are

Winner Rack
One ball on the spot
9 ball on the break does not count.

JJFSTAR
01-04-2011, 08:58 AM
I am not attempting to start an argument or sound “smart” but.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Please note, I suggested an independent racker and no examining of the racks. They have to go together to make it work. This way, the racker couldn't manipulate the rack </div></div>

Well an independent racker has no REASON to specifically manipulate the rack in favor of or attempt to “put the rack” on a specific player unless the racker knows the players in some capacity or was being paid in some way. That aside there is always a chance of that rack not being what it should be and that is all the balls touching and the 4 outside balls aligned with or perpendicular to (depending on how you look at it) the rails.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> and, if there were some hair line gaps, the breaker couldn't read those gaps and make it work to his advantage. </div></div>

I am sorry but this confuses me. So its 6-5 his break, he gets a rack that has a tight 1ball and a loose wing ball that is DOA in the corner, he BRs now its hill hill, now its my break and I get a loose 1ball and tight wing balls and I am not only not allowed to contest this but I am not even allowed to examine the rack and realize the problem I am faced with? Doesn’t seem fair to me.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In either case, a match wouldn't get held up for 10 minutes everytime they had to rack, like I have seen at some tournaments including the U.S. Open. </div></div>

Ok let’s think, does this sound plausible?

I understand where you’re coming from but examination of a cluster of balls is a foundation of well played pool. After I have thought about it; to disallow the players to examine the balls at any point in the game has more minuses than pluses. It may seem trivial or even down right silly but what if the examination of the rack is part of his or her pre-shot routine? It certainly is part of Deuels he will examine Steve Tiptons when he racks with a Sardo.

Rich R.
01-04-2011, 11:50 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not attempting to start an argument or sound “smart” but.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Please note, I suggested an independent racker and no examining of the racks. They have to go together to make it work. This way, the racker couldn't manipulate the rack </div></div>

Well an independent racker has no REASON to specifically manipulate the rack in favor of or attempt to “put the rack” on a specific player unless the racker knows the players in some capacity or was being paid in some way. That aside there is always a chance of that rack not being what it should be and that is all the balls touching and the 4 outside balls aligned with or perpendicular to (depending on how you look at it) the rails.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> and, if there were some hair line gaps, the breaker couldn't read those gaps and make it work to his advantage. </div></div>

I am sorry but this confuses me. So its 6-5 his break, he gets a rack that has a tight 1ball and a loose wing ball that is DOA in the corner, he BRs now its hill hill, now its my break and I get a loose 1ball and tight wing balls and I am not only not allowed to contest this but I am not even allowed to examine the rack and realize the problem I am faced with? Doesn’t seem fair to me.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In either case, a match wouldn't get held up for 10 minutes everytime they had to rack, like I have seen at some tournaments including the U.S. Open. </div></div>

Ok let’s think, does this sound plausible?

I understand where you’re coming from but examination of a cluster of balls is a foundation of well played pool. After I have thought about it; to disallow the players to examine the balls at any point in the game has more minuses than pluses. It may seem trivial or even down right silly but what if the examination of the rack is part of his or her pre-shot routine? It certainly is part of Deuels he will examine Steve Tiptons when he racks with a Sardo. </div></div>
IMHO, the main problem is that no table will easily allow a perfect rack once it has been played on for a while. Even at major events, when they start out with brand new cloth, there are no problems with racking at the beginning of the event but the problems creep up as they near the end of the event.

My solution is only meant to avoid the long waits between racks and to keep it fair. If neither player gets to touch or inspect the rack, with an independent racker, that is more than fair. Of course, in this scenario, the racker would be trying his best to give good racks to both players. Squabbling over minute spaces in the rack would be avoided. After all, it is certainly not fair for one player to continually delay play with petty complaints about each and every rack. The perfect rack just doesn't exist on a used table.

BTW, I have seen Cory play many times and he doesn't inspect every rack and it is not part of his pre shot routine. I also highly doubt that it is part of any other player's routine. That is stretching this discussion a bit.

JJFSTAR
01-04-2011, 01:29 PM
And you are entitled to your opinion but your solution to the “squabbling” doesn’t allow for the “what ifs” what if the scenario that I laid out happens? Too bad the match was decided by racking? I deem that unacceptable BTW players shot routines change all the time so Cory has stopped inspecting every rack and Strickland has added a warm-up stroke to his. Specific players and their routines are irrelevant to the discussion I was just giving an example. Your doubt that it could be a part of a routine does not allow for the WHAT IF IT IS. As I also said it might seem trivial or silly so I was prepared for you or anyone to say something like that. I say (also very humbly) you are entitled to your opinion it just isn’t mine.

Tony_in_MD
01-04-2011, 05:59 PM
While it is true that the end of a long tourney the conditions of the table will impact the racking of the balls, there is another consideration to be made.

IMHO the problems with racking on the last day of the US Open 9 ball were related to having a group of old men, with shaky hands and bad eyes racking for the pros. I cringed inside every time a set of reading glasses were taken out of a pocket to look over the rack.

IF the winners were allowed to rack there own (as they were through 6 days of the tourney I think there would have been fewer problems.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not attempting to start an argument or sound “smart” but.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Please note, I suggested an independent racker and no examining of the racks. They have to go together to make it work. This way, the racker couldn't manipulate the rack </div></div>

Well an independent racker has no REASON to specifically manipulate the rack in favor of or attempt to “put the rack” on a specific player unless the racker knows the players in some capacity or was being paid in some way. That aside there is always a chance of that rack not being what it should be and that is all the balls touching and the 4 outside balls aligned with or perpendicular to (depending on how you look at it) the rails.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> and, if there were some hair line gaps, the breaker couldn't read those gaps and make it work to his advantage. </div></div>

I am sorry but this confuses me. So its 6-5 his break, he gets a rack that has a tight 1ball and a loose wing ball that is DOA in the corner, he BRs now its hill hill, now its my break and I get a loose 1ball and tight wing balls and I am not only not allowed to contest this but I am not even allowed to examine the rack and realize the problem I am faced with? Doesn’t seem fair to me.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In either case, a match wouldn't get held up for 10 minutes everytime they had to rack, like I have seen at some tournaments including the U.S. Open. </div></div>

Ok let’s think, does this sound plausible?

I understand where you’re coming from but examination of a cluster of balls is a foundation of well played pool. After I have thought about it; to disallow the players to examine the balls at any point in the game has more minuses than pluses. It may seem trivial or even down right silly but what if the examination of the rack is part of his or her pre-shot routine? It certainly is part of Deuels he will examine Steve Tiptons when he racks with a Sardo. </div></div>
IMHO, the main problem is that no table will easily allow a perfect rack once it has been played on for a while. Even at major events, when they start out with brand new cloth, there are no problems with racking at the beginning of the event but the problems creep up as they near the end of the event.

My solution is only meant to avoid the long waits between racks and to keep it fair. If neither player gets to touch or inspect the rack, with an independent racker, that is more than fair. Of course, in this scenario, the racker would be trying his best to give good racks to both players. Squabbling over minute spaces in the rack would be avoided. After all, it is certainly not fair for one player to continually delay play with petty complaints about each and every rack. The perfect rack just doesn't exist on a used table.

BTW, I have seen Cory play many times and he doesn't inspect every rack and it is not part of his pre shot routine. I also highly doubt that it is part of any other player's routine. That is stretching this discussion a bit.
</div></div>

Rich R.
01-05-2011, 08:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And you are entitled to your opinion but your solution to the “squabbling” doesn’t allow for the “what ifs” what if the scenario that I laid out happens? Too bad the match was decided by racking? I deem that unacceptable BTW players shot routines change all the time so Cory has stopped inspecting every rack and Strickland has added a warm-up stroke to his. Specific players and their routines are irrelevant to the discussion I was just giving an example. Your doubt that it could be a part of a routine does not allow for the WHAT IF IT IS. As I also said it might seem trivial or silly so I was prepared for you or anyone to say something like that. I say (also very humbly) you are entitled to your opinion it just isn’t mine. </div></div>
I gave what was requested, my opinion. I don't think there is one single answer to this problem. My solution is just one alternative to the bickering we have all witnessed.

Unlike you, I don't think the rules should be adjusted to allow for the "what ifs". It is the players who have to adjust as necessary. TD's allowing for all of the "what ifs" is what has gotten us into this racking discussion in the first place.
Rather than coming up with all of the "what ifs", which we can all do, I would prefer if you came up with a solution to the constant and time consuming bickering in big matches.

Rich R.
01-05-2011, 08:27 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tony_in_MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
While it is true that the end of a long tourney the conditions of the table will impact the racking of the balls, there is another consideration to be made.

IMHO the problems with racking on the last day of the US Open 9 ball were related to having a group of old men, with shaky hands and bad eyes racking for the pros. I cringed inside every time a set of reading glasses were taken out of a pocket to look over the rack.

IF the winners were allowed to rack there own (as they were through 6 days of the tourney I think there would have been fewer problems. </div></div>
Tony, your solution should work but I have seen rack your own tournaments and their is still a lot of bickering.

As example of what I have seen in actual tournament play is as follows:

Player A racks his own.
Player B inspects the rack.
Player A breaks and makes at least one ball and runs out or makes balls and plays safe before winning the rack.
This happens two or three racks in a row with Player B inspecting every rack.
Player B accuses Player A of manipulating the rack and the bickering begins. The TD ends up racking for the remainder of the match and both players complain about the racks.

It didn't help one bit.

Brian in VA
01-05-2011, 09:52 AM
Hey Tony, let's watch that "old men with shaky hands and reading glasses" stuff! Some of us resemble that remark! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Happy New Year to you and Sheila!

Brian in VA

Bambu
01-05-2011, 09:53 AM
What if the rules said both players should agree on a table they both like, a table where they both agree the balls rack tight? Next, mark the table so the racker knows the rack is not cocked to one side. The only thing to complain about is if the racker puts up a loose or tilted rack. If someone says the rack is tilted or loose, the ref decides if the complaint has any legitimacy. If the refs vision is so poor he cant see an obviously bad rack, not much you can do about it. You can blame whoever you want, but people lose games on bad calls in every sport.

Rich R.
01-06-2011, 08:05 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What if the rules said both players should agree on a table they both like, a table where they both agree the balls rack tight? Next, mark the table so the racker knows the rack is not cocked to one side. The only thing to complain about is if the racker puts up a loose or tilted rack. If someone says the rack is tilted or loose, the ref decides if the complaint has any legitimacy. If the refs vision is so poor he cant see an obviously bad rack, not much you can do about it. You can blame whoever you want, but people lose games on bad calls in every sport. </div></div>
I'd be willing to support anything that would end the bickering and long delays with racking. For some, the bickering and delays are just ways to shark their opponents. I'm not sure your solution would do that but I'd be willing to try.

You are correct, "people lose games on bad calls in every sport." It is also true that peole blame bad calls for causing them to lose when there was no bad call. It all goes around and around.

Rich R.
01-06-2011, 08:07 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brian in VA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Tony, let's watch that "old men with shaky hands and reading glasses" stuff! Some of us resemble that remark! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif</div></div>
I think I have some photos of that guy. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whistle.gif

Tony_in_MD
01-06-2011, 10:54 AM
I am in that club now too. I told Sheila this morning that I think I need reading glasses now.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Happy new year to you and yours......



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brian in VA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Tony, let's watch that "old men with shaky hands and reading glasses" stuff! Some of us resemble that remark! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Happy New Year to you and Sheila!

Brian in VA</div></div>

Bambu
01-06-2011, 06:47 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What if the rules said both players should agree on a table they both like, a table where they both agree the balls rack tight? Next, mark the table so the racker knows the rack is not cocked to one side. The only thing to complain about is if the racker puts up a loose or tilted rack. If someone says the rack is tilted or loose, the ref decides if the complaint has any legitimacy. If the refs vision is so poor he cant see an obviously bad rack, not much you can do about it. You can blame whoever you want, but people lose games on bad calls in every sport. </div></div>
I'd be willing to support anything that would end the bickering and long delays with racking. For some, the bickering and delays are just ways to shark their opponents. I'm not sure your solution would do that but I'd be willing to try.

You are correct, "people lose games on bad calls in every sport." It is also true that peole blame bad calls for causing them to lose when there was no bad call. It all goes around and around.
</div></div>

How bout this: Each shooter gets 3 chances to fail on an appeal that the opponents rack is loose or crooked. So if a guy is just appealing to be a jerk, he would only get to do that 3 times. After that, he will have cheated himself out of the chance of a future, more realistic appeal. That way if a rack is a tiny bit out of line, shooters might think twice before complaining.

Tony_in_MD
01-07-2011, 05:52 AM
After reading through all of this, and seeing the racking problems at pro-tourney's and experiencing these issues myself (which is another story)

I have come to the conclusion that if you want a perfect rack, you need to use anyone of the racking templates or tappers on the market currently.

I have had experience with these tools and I can say that they are the best way to achieve a perfectly frozen rack every time.

Rich R.
01-07-2011, 07:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What if the rules said both players should agree on a table they both like, a table where they both agree the balls rack tight? Next, mark the table so the racker knows the rack is not cocked to one side. The only thing to complain about is if the racker puts up a loose or tilted rack. If someone says the rack is tilted or loose, the ref decides if the complaint has any legitimacy. If the refs vision is so poor he cant see an obviously bad rack, not much you can do about it. You can blame whoever you want, but people lose games on bad calls in every sport. </div></div>
I'd be willing to support anything that would end the bickering and long delays with racking. For some, the bickering and delays are just ways to shark their opponents. I'm not sure your solution would do that but I'd be willing to try.

You are correct, "people lose games on bad calls in every sport." It is also true that peole blame bad calls for causing them to lose when there was no bad call. It all goes around and around.
</div></div>

How bout this: Each shooter gets 3 chances to fail on an appeal that the opponents rack is loose or crooked. So if a guy is just appealing to be a jerk, he would only get to do that 3 times. After that, he will have cheated himself out of the chance of a future, more realistic appeal. That way if a rack is a tiny bit out of line, shooters might think twice before complaining. </div></div>
Like I said, I would be willing to back any attempt at solving the problems. There is no way to know if something will work until it attempted in tournament situations.

Bambu
01-07-2011, 07:38 PM
The problem with the template is, its too easy to make the wing ball. Another reason for pros to move to 10 ball, the template should work well for that.

Tony_in_MD
01-08-2011, 12:44 PM
Yes, the templates make it easier to make a wing ball. The problem is that is the kind of pool I want to see, break and run's in packages.

SpiderMan
01-11-2011, 05:55 PM
"Reading the rack" could be considered a high-level skill, and as such it does have a place in the game. Regarding the "10 minutes", why not make the rack-reading interval part of a standard shot clock? No protesting the independent rack, but let your examination dictate your shot, if desired.

SpiderMan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not attempting to start an argument or sound “smart” but.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Please note, I suggested an independent racker and no examining of the racks. They have to go together to make it work. This way, the racker couldn't manipulate the rack </div></div>

Well an independent racker has no REASON to specifically manipulate the rack in favor of or attempt to “put the rack” on a specific player unless the racker knows the players in some capacity or was being paid in some way. That aside there is always a chance of that rack not being what it should be and that is all the balls touching and the 4 outside balls aligned with or perpendicular to (depending on how you look at it) the rails.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> and, if there were some hair line gaps, the breaker couldn't read those gaps and make it work to his advantage. </div></div>

I am sorry but this confuses me. So its 6-5 his break, he gets a rack that has a tight 1ball and a loose wing ball that is DOA in the corner, he BRs now its hill hill, now its my break and I get a loose 1ball and tight wing balls and I am not only not allowed to contest this but I am not even allowed to examine the rack and realize the problem I am faced with? Doesn’t seem fair to me.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In either case, a match wouldn't get held up for 10 minutes everytime they had to rack, like I have seen at some tournaments including the U.S. Open. </div></div>

Ok let’s think, does this sound plausible?

I understand where you’re coming from but examination of a cluster of balls is a foundation of well played pool. After I have thought about it; to disallow the players to examine the balls at any point in the game has more minuses than pluses. It may seem trivial or even down right silly but what if the examination of the rack is part of his or her pre-shot routine? It certainly is part of Deuels he will examine Steve Tiptons when he racks with a Sardo. </div></div>
IMHO, the main problem is that no table will easily allow a perfect rack once it has been played on for a while. Even at major events, when they start out with brand new cloth, there are no problems with racking at the beginning of the event but the problems creep up as they near the end of the event.

My solution is only meant to avoid the long waits between racks and to keep it fair. If neither player gets to touch or inspect the rack, with an independent racker, that is more than fair. Of course, in this scenario, the racker would be trying his best to give good racks to both players. Squabbling over minute spaces in the rack would be avoided. After all, it is certainly not fair for one player to continually delay play with petty complaints about each and every rack. The perfect rack just doesn't exist on a used table.

BTW, I have seen Cory play many times and he doesn't inspect every rack and it is not part of his pre shot routine. I also highly doubt that it is part of any other player's routine. That is stretching this discussion a bit.
</div></div>

Gerard
01-14-2011, 08:06 AM
So the options are:

- Perfect rack with one on the spot. Wing ball goes almost always.
- Perfect rack with nine on the spot. One can be made easily.
- Not perfect rack racked by breaker. Other player can complain.
- Not perfect tack racked by non-breaker. Other player can complain.
- Not perfect rack by referee without possibility to check rack. Takes away the skill of reading the rack and benefit from it.
- Not perfect rack by referee with possibility to check rack. Both playesr can complain.

My opinion: A nineball rack should be perfect, so use a template. With lower level players you get more run-outs which is good. With professionals you could choose for alternate break or switch to 10-ball.

Last week I was 3-0 up in a race to 5, I tried a combo which stuck up the the nine over the hole (dumbass me). So the other guy got a free rack and proceeded with two nine-ball breaks that I racked as tight as I could on the used cloth. He didn't check the rack btw. When I got to the final we used a template and got a much fairer match. Yes a ball went on each break but at our level in a race to 6 that resulted in three BR's iirc.

So perfect rack for me at amateur level. House tournaments are often short races, sometimes to 3 in the losers bracket, and frequent nine-ball breaks that come in patches are just too harsh.

On pro level? In the last Mosconi cup you had to drive a number of balls to the other side of the table in order for the break to be legal. That prevented people from using the soft cut-break. I think all these extra rules to solve the racking issue are just a denial of the fact that the break in 9-ball has become too much of an advantage. So alternate break or switch to 10-ball.

Coroner
01-14-2011, 08:19 AM
I was in a house "B" house tournament last week. The rules were rack your own, 2 ball at the back of the rack and if the 9 goes in the bottom corner pockets the balls are re-racked and the broken again. There were no racking arguments at all. It seems like a good compromise...putting the 2 at the back made for harder break and run (especially for B players) and if you give yourself a loose rack and make the 9 you aren't rewarded. It was also alternate, which I like.....

Sid_Vicious
01-16-2011, 11:16 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Coroner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was in a house "B" house tournament last week. The rules were rack your own, 2 ball at the back of the rack and if the 9 goes in the bottom corner pockets the balls are re-racked and the broken again. There were no racking arguments at all. It seems like a good compromise...putting the 2 at the back made for harder break and run (especially for B players) and if you give yourself a loose rack and make the 9 you aren't rewarded. It was also alternate, which I like.....</div></div>

I'm not sure I understand the logic behind spotting the 9 if it's made on the break. sid

Rich R.
01-17-2011, 06:08 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Coroner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was in a house "B" house tournament last week. The rules were rack your own, 2 ball at the back of the rack and if the 9 goes in the bottom corner pockets the balls are re-racked and the broken again. There were no racking arguments at all. It seems like a good compromise...putting the 2 at the back made for harder break and run (especially for B players) and if you give yourself a loose rack and make the 9 you aren't rewarded. It was also alternate, which I like.....</div></div>

I'm not sure I understand the logic behind spotting the 9 if it's made on the break. sid </div></div>
Sid, some people believe if the 9 goes into the bottom two pockets it must be due to a bad rack. IMHO, it is BS, but the practice of spotting the 9 has become fairly common in my area.

esb77
02-01-2011, 03:19 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, that should never be. The one ball should always be racked on the spot in 9-Ball. If not, then it is a violation of the rules.

Now, having said that, I do know of many instances when the 9 was racked on the spot. I vehemently oppose it and hope that all involved will respect the rules of the game rather than make their own rules. </div></div>

This is exactly how I feel about it.