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Deeman3
01-08-2011, 03:13 PM
Another sad and wasteful act of violence against a Representative and others.

We should all pray for the victims and their families.

sack316
01-08-2011, 04:37 PM
Yep. What a terrible and senseless action.

Sack

Sev
01-08-2011, 04:38 PM
Very unfortunate indeed.

19 shot.
5 dead
1 9 year old girl dead.
1 District judge apparently appointed by Bush 1 dead.
1 Democrat congress woman in surgery for a bullet lodged in her head.

The guy is 22 years old. Reads Mein Kampf and a follower or supporter of Mike Moor. Does not trust in god. Refuses to pay debts with money not backed by gold. And more.

His name is Jerrid Lotner. (Sp?)
He has video's on Youtube.

The media came right out of the chute and blamed the Tea Pary and Sarah Palin.

Looks like that dogs not going to hunt.

Sev
01-08-2011, 05:08 PM
Here is his Youtube channel.

Jared Lee Loughner

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Classitup10&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_564778

Sev
01-08-2011, 05:21 PM
The guys a flag burner as well.

Qtec
01-08-2011, 05:38 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The media came right out of the chute and blamed the Tea Pary and Sarah Palin.

<u>Looks like that dogs not going to hunt.</u>
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no evidence at this time that the shooting of Giffords was politically motivated, <span style='font-size: 17pt'>but it's grimly ironic that the candidate appeared on a map of House Democrats <span style="color: #3333FF">"targeted"</span> by Palin in 2010.</span>

The map controversially used actual target markers<span style="color: #990000"> they look like cross-hairs to me.</span> on locations these Democrats lived and listed their names.
Story continues below

See the controversial target map below: </div></div>

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/235408/SARAH-PALIN-TARGET-MAP.jpg

Palin is guilty as hell, so is Beck.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Likewise, Palin's rhetoric is decidedly militant. "We'll<span style='font-size: 14pt'> aim</span> for these races and many others," she wrote on her Facebook page. "This is just the first <span style='font-size: 14pt'>salvo</span> in a fight to elect people across the nation who will bring common sense to Washington. Please go to sarahpac.com and join me in the fight." </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Arizona Gun Law: Concealed Weapons Allowed Without Permit Under New Law

PAUL DAVENPORT and JONATHAN J. COOPER | <u>04/16/10 </u>07:39 PM |

PHOENIX — Favoring the constitutional right to bear arms over others' concerns about gun safety, Gov. Jan Brewer on Friday signed into law a bill making Arizona the third state allowing people to carry a concealed weapon without requiring a permit.

The measure takes effect 90 days after the current legislative session ends, which likely puts the effective date in July or August.

"I believe this legislation not only protects the Second Amendment rights of Arizona citizens, but restores those rights as well," Brewer, a Republican, said in a statement.

Alaska and Vermont now do not require permits to carry concealed weapons.

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>By eliminating the permit requirement, the Arizona legislation will allow people 21 or older to forego background checks and classes that are now required.</span> </div></div>

The GOP, the pundits etc have gone way beyond what is acceptable in attacking Obama and the Democrats. Its one crazy rumour after another.

Obama is going to take your guns!

<u>How did that turn out?..... A CLASSIC example of RW lies.</u>



There are a zillion others, but they problem really lies in the rhetoric. The demonizing of the other party and the continuing lies about how Obama hates white people and wants to turn America into a Socialist country! etc etc etc..

Here is another classic example of RW nuttyness, <span style='font-size: 14pt'>but which some NUTS might believe.</span>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bachmann Calls For McCarthyite Investigation Into Anti-American Activities Of Liberals

Appearing on MSNBC’s Hardball today, Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) attacked the patriotism of Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL), based on his alleged relationship to former Weather Underground member William Ayers and the values of Obama’s former pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright. “I’m very concerned that he may have anti-American views,” said Bachmann. “That’s what the American people are concerned about.”

<span style='font-size: 20pt'>She then went further, suggesting that all liberal views — held by people such as Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, professors, and all Americans who identify themselves as “liberals” — are “anti-American.” </span>When host Chris Matthews, stunned by her remarks, asked Bachmann how many people in Congress hold anti-American views, she responded, “You’ll have to ask them.”

Bachmann called on the media to conduct investigations into the anti-American activities of members of Congress, similar to Sen. Joseph McCarthy’s discredited House Un-American Activities Committee hearings in the 1950s. “I think people would love to see an exposé like that,” she claimed. Watch it: </div></div>

dangerous nutjob (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SQTxxkdSIs&feature=player_embedded)

These days, if you are a Dem, you are an anti-American enemy.

Q....

Sev
01-08-2011, 06:24 PM
Actually more like if you are a liberal.

Qtec
01-08-2011, 06:31 PM
Remember the anger drummed up at the Town Halls?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Town hall disruptions around the country have led to some outbreaks of violence. Unions participating in town halls have received death threats. At an event held by Rep. <span style='font-size: 20pt'>Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) last week, the threat of violence led her aides to call the police after one attendee dropped a gun.</span>

"Yelling and screaming is counterproductive," she told the Sierra Vista Herald at a Congress on Your Corner event last week. There, one visitor dropped a gun at the meet n' greet held in a Douglas Safeway, her staff says.


That has aides, who called police to the event, concerned for her safety.

<span style='font-size: 26pt'>"We have never felt the need before to notify law enforcement when we hold these events," said spokesman C.J. Karamargin.</span> </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually more like if you are a liberal. </div></div>

How old are you?

Q

Stretch
01-08-2011, 06:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Actually more like if you are a liberal. </div></div>

Actually more like if you are left of Gingrich Khan. St.

Sev
01-08-2011, 06:52 PM
Why? Are you looking for a date.
Sorry I dont swing that way.

Sev
01-08-2011, 06:54 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Actually more like if you are a liberal. </div></div>

Actually more like if you are left of Gingrich Khan. St. </div></div>

No. You can have a conversation with a democrat.
Its generally a screaming match with a liberal no matter who you are.

Qtec
01-08-2011, 07:13 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why? Are you looking for a date. </div></div>

I don't know your real age but I have a pretty god idea of your mental age.

Bye.

Q

Sev
01-08-2011, 07:14 PM
Pot calling the kettle Q?

pooltchr
01-08-2011, 07:51 PM
[quote=Qtec]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The media came right out of the chute and blamed the Tea Pary and Sarah Palin.

<u>Looks like that dogs not going to hunt.</u>
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no evidence at this time that the shooting of Giffords was politically motivated, <span style='font-size: 17pt'>but it's grimly ironic that the candidate appeared on a map of House Democrats <span style="color: #3333FF">"targeted"</span> by Palin in 2010.</span>

The map controversially used actual target markers<span style="color: #990000"> they look like cross-hairs to me.</span> on locations these Democrats lived and listed their names.
Story continues below

See the controversial target map below: </div></div>

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/235408/SARAH-PALIN-TARGET-MAP.jpg

Palin is guilty as hell, so is Beck.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Likewise, Palin's rhetoric is decidedly militant. "We'll<span style='font-size: 14pt'> aim</span> for these races and many others," she wrote on her Facebook page. "This is just the first <span style='font-size: 14pt'>salvo</span> in a fight to elect people across the nation who will bring common sense to Washington. Please go to sarahpac.com and join me in the fight." </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">



Q.... </div></div>

What a crock! Metaphors such as this are used regularly when talking about politics. I believe it was your messiah Barry Obama who, in his inaguaration speech, spoke of how politics is war. Does that mean the president is suggesting that the country is at war with half of it's citizens? How about when he was speaking to the hispanic community and urged them to get out and fight the enemy? Do you think he really sees citizens of his own country as the enemy? Or, does he really only hate that half of America that doesn't support him??

When you post this kind of garbage, it just makes you look as ignorant as the rest of the blinded political partisans.

When you have no substance...you rely on crap and hope nobody notices.

Steve

Qtec
01-08-2011, 08:05 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What a crock! Metaphors such as this are used regularly when talking about politics. I believe it was your messiah Barry Obama who, in his inaguaration speech, spoke of how politics is war.</div></div>

What if he had gone on to say,

"The Republicans are the enemy. They hate black people. They are anti-Americans who want to take your guns from you. We have to target them and take them out.".... while holding a gun aloft?


That's basically what the right have done.

Q

pooltchr
01-08-2011, 09:18 PM
And the left have never used the same kind of language to make their point?

Get real!!

Steve

Sev
01-08-2011, 10:06 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What a crock! Metaphors such as this are used regularly when talking about politics. I believe it was your messiah Barry Obama who, in his inaguaration speech, spoke of how politics is war.</div></div>

What if he had gone on to say,

"The Republicans are the enemy. They hate black people. They are anti-Americans who want to take your guns from you. We have to target them and take them out.".... while holding a gun aloft?


That's basically what the right have done.

Q </div></div>

Actually Obama did call the people that oppose his agenda the enemy very recently along with a back of the bus comment.

Oh and the gun you are referencing was held by a black man in a rally.

Stretch
01-08-2011, 10:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And the left have never used the same kind of language to make their point?

Get real!!

Steve </div></div>

Now you know the ugly side of "free speech" and the lame excuse of "oh, but it's just satire" BS,or the usuall "it's my Constiutional right to say whatever the hell i want no matter how f8cked up it is". Hate speech is hate speech and it incites nut bars to violence which is why most sane Democracy's have laws against it.

Of course we might never know what exactly put this person over the edge to murder all these people, the whole "tone" of politics these days sure didn't help.

As for name calling. IMO rather cheap and abundant but not in itself incendiary. It's more "in the message" that gets the radicals and crazies going.

Tragic at any rate. Shocking to see this happening. St.

hondo
01-09-2011, 12:44 AM
What's sad is that we have a terrible tragedy and the killer b's are filling up the thread ranting about how bad Lefties are.

I don't want to get the boot on here, but Lord, I wish I could just stop posting altogether and walk away from this forum like my wife wants me to.

I really do find about 5 of the posters on here repulsive
and it turns my stomach to read their posts anymore.

sack316
01-09-2011, 01:03 AM
Just a general reply here, but let's not get into the "he's a RW nutjob" or "he's a LW nutjob" stuff on things like this. I haven't read up on much on this yet, so I honestly don't know much about the idiot who did this. But I know our habit on here in situations like this generally tries to portray the idiot along party lines.

But let's take it for what it is: a wacko who truly doesn't represent anyone's ideology other than other idiot wackos. No republican mantra says "let's go kill people we don't agree with and hurt innocent victims". No Democratic mantra says that either. No tea partier believes that, no grassroots progressive movement believes that. No Christians hope for that. No Atheists hope for that. No liberal, no conservative. No whatsoever anything group, other than the ultra-extremist nutjob fraction-of-a-percentage population actually hopes for and supports such actions in this country.

I hope none of us attempt to portray it as anything different.

Sack

LWW
01-09-2011, 04:42 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just a general reply here, but let's not get into the "he's a RW nutjob" or "he's a LW nutjob" stuff on things like this. I haven't read up on much on this yet, so I honestly don't know much about the idiot who did this. But I know our habit on here in situations like this generally tries to portray the idiot along party lines.

But let's take it for what it is: a wacko who truly doesn't represent anyone's ideology other than other idiot wackos. No republican mantra says "let's go kill people we don't agree with and hurt innocent victims". No Democratic mantra says that either. No tea partier believes that, no grassroots progressive movement believes that. No Christians hope for that. No Atheists hope for that. No liberal, no conservative. No whatsoever anything group, other than the ultra-extremist nutjob fraction-of-a-percentage population actually hopes for and supports such actions in this country.

I hope none of us attempt to portray it as anything different.

Sack </div></div>

I pretty much agree.

Anyone who claims that Palin or Obama calls for this kind of insanity has no clue what they are talking about.

That being said, I've always said the Obama followers are the ones who scare me way more than Obama.

This guy was a fan of Karl Marx and Adolf Hitler.

He shot a congresswoman with an anti Obamacare and anti illegal immigration platform.

He and he alone is responsible for what he did ... but I'll bet a dollar against a week old doughnut that he turns out to be a leftist.

LWW

Qtec
01-09-2011, 04:55 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We had to know this was coming, didn't we? Let the false equivalencies begin: </div></div>

link (http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/dana-bash-calls-arizona-shooting-wake-call)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If anyone needs to be told to tone down their rhetoric, it's John McCain and his former running mate, Sarah Palin. Sorry Dana, <span style='font-size: 14pt'>but “both sides” don't have <u>a 24/7 hate television network and hate radio spreading lies and whipping up the fear and anger in their audience week after week.</u> And there aren't any Democratic politicians out there doing what Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann and company have done with repeating eliminationist rhetoric at every opportunity.
</span>
No one does know what this man's motivation was in this shooting yet, but when it comes to the politicians who obviously have little concern if this type of tragedy could end up being the result of their rhetoric, <span style='font-size: 17pt'>there's just one side that needs to get that message, and it's the Republicans and their enablers on Fox and right-wing hate radio.</span> <span style="color: #990000">

<span style='font-size: 20pt'>We don't have any Democratic members of Congress out there telling their constituents to "reload' or that we need investigations looking into whether they're anti-American or not.</span></span> </div></div>

Q

Qtec
01-09-2011, 05:06 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This morning in Arizona, this time of the ever-escalating, borderline-ecstatic invocation of violence in fact or in fantasy in our political discourse, closed. It is essential tonight not to demand revenge, but to demand justice; to insist not upon payback against those politicians and commentators who have so irresponsibly brought us to this time of domestic terrorism, but to work to change the minds of them and their supporters - or if those minds tonight are too closed, or if those minds tonight are too unmoved, or if those minds tonight are too triumphant, to make sure by peaceful means that those politicians and commentators and supporters have no further place in our system of government.

If Sarah Palin, <span style='font-size: 14pt'>whose website put and today scrubbed bullseye targets on 20 Representatives including Gabby Giffords,</span> does not repudiate her own part in amplifying violence and violent imagery in politics, she must be dismissed from politics - she must be repudiated by the members of her own party, and if they fail to do so, each one of them must be judged to have silently defended this tactic that today proved so awfully foretelling, and they must in turn be dismissed by the responsible members of their own party.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>If Jesse Kelly, whose campaign against Congresswoman Giffords included an event in which he encouraged his supporters to join him firing machine guns,</span> does not repudiate this, and does not admit that even if it was solely indirectly, or solely coincidentally, it contributed to the black cloud of violence that has envellopped our politics, he must be repudiated by Arizona's Republican Party.

If Congressman Allen West, who during his successful campaign told his supporters that <span style='font-size: 14pt'>they should make his opponent afraid to come out of his home,</span> does not repudiate those remarks and all other suggestions of violence and forced fear, he should be repudiated by his constituents and the Republican Congressional Caucus.

If Sharron Angle, who spoke of<span style='font-size: 14pt'> "Second Amendment solutions," </span>does not repudiate that remark and urge her supporters to think anew of the terrible reality of what her words implied, she must be repudiated by her supporters in Nevada.

If the Tea Party leaders who took out of context a Jefferson quote about blood and tyranny and the tree of liberty do not understand - do not understand tonight, now what that really means, and these leaders do not tell their followers to abhor violence and all threat of violence, then those Tea Party leaders must be repudiated by the Republican Party.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>If Glenn Beck, who obsesses nearly as strangely as Mr. Loughner did about gold and debt and who wistfully joked about killing Michael Moore, and Bill O'Reilly, who blithely repeated "Tiller the Killer"</span> until the phrase was burned into the minds of his viewers, do not begin their next broadcasts with solemn apologies <span style="color: #3333FF">for ever turning to the death-fantasies and the dreams of bloodlust, for ever having provided just the oxygen to those deep in madness to whom violence is an acceptable solution, then those commentators and the others must be repudiated by their viewers, and by all politicians, and by sponsors, and by the networks that employ them.</span> </div></div>

Q

LWW
01-09-2011, 05:45 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We had to know this was coming, didn't we? Let the false equivalencies begin: </div></div>

link (http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/dana-bash-calls-arizona-shooting-wake-call)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If anyone needs to be told to tone down their rhetoric, it's John McCain and his former running mate, Sarah Palin. Sorry Dana, <span style='font-size: 14pt'>but “both sides” don't have <u>a 24/7 hate television network and hate radio spreading lies and whipping up the fear and anger in their audience week after week.</u> And there aren't any Democratic politicians out there doing what Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann and company have done with repeating eliminationist rhetoric at every opportunity.
</span>
No one does know what this man's motivation was in this shooting yet, but when it comes to the politicians who obviously have little concern if this type of tragedy could end up being the result of their rhetoric, <span style='font-size: 17pt'>there's just one side that needs to get that message, and it's the Republicans and their enablers on Fox and right-wing hate radio.</span> <span style="color: #990000">

<span style='font-size: 20pt'>We don't have any Democratic members of Congress out there telling their constituents to "reload' or that we need investigations looking into whether they're anti-American or not.</span></span> </div></div>

Q </div></div>
REALLY? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNa0zgQdfAg)

LWW

Chopstick
01-09-2011, 07:05 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> but I'll bet a dollar against a week old doughnut that he turns out to be a leftist.

LWW </div></div>

<span style="color: #000099">Here it is. This is from a girl who has known him for years. She is on her twitter page talking about it.</span>

FACT: Jared Loughner: Left Wing, Liberal

Caitie Parker, a singer/songwriter from Oro Valley, AZ, says that she knows Jared Loughner, the gunman that shot 19 people in Tucson, Arizona, on Saturday, January 8th.She really hoped it wasn’t the same guy she went to high school with several years earlier, as he had been a really good friend. Not only did she go to high school with him, but college as well and was in a band with him. “There were 5-6 of us that hung out” in high school. Unfortunately, it was.

At that time, she said, he was very philosophical and leaned to the ‘left.’ She said, “For the Bush/Kerry election we all wore “1 term president” buttons. That election was HUGE to us.”

He had actually met Gabrielle Giffords in ‘07, and after asking her a question, told Caitie later that Gifford was “stupid and unintelligent.” The question he asked Giffords, Caitie said, “was odd & didn’t make sense, I can’t remember what it was. Just know it was weird.” The last time she had seen him in person was in 2007, in a sign language class.

Contrary to the opinion of several bloggers following the shooting, there is no evidence that Sarah Palin or Glenn Beck had any influence on Loughner. On the contrary, according to Caitie, at the time she knew him, he was left wing, quite liberal, and “oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy.” “He wore shirts & bracelets about it. & liked to discuss 2012 w/ everyone!”

Their group was “liberal in wanting to change the way the world was run, we both wanted to. He took it to an extreme I never would’ve.” She said he was a “political radical” long before the teaparty, Glenn Beck, or Sarah Palin came on the scene.

Caitie also said he was a pot head and was into the music of Hendrix, The Doors, and Anti-Flag. “We listened to political punk in high school & agreed with their leftist opinions for the most part. Anti-Flag was our band.”

She states that he adhered to the “straight edge” beliefs of Anti-flag for the first few years of High School, but “Junior year & on, no.”When she knew him, he had lot of friends, smoked pot, and dated girls, “until he got alcohol poisoning” in 2006 and dropped out of school. After that, he became very reclusive and was mainly a loner.

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>There is NO evidence that he was influenced by conservatives, but there is good evidence he was influenced by socialists.</span> His my Space page, for example, listed Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto as some of his favorite books.

He spent lots of time on My Space and You Tube using words and phrases that didn’t make much sense to express his angst with the world. (Screen grabs before his My Space was taken down - http://is.gd/koh1g - http://is.gd/koh1m) -You Tube - Introduction: Jared Loughner

<span style="color: #000099">I just turned on CNN. Guess what they are saying.

Sarah Palin, Sarah Palin, Sarah Palin, Sarah Palin, Sarah Palin

</span>

Chopstick
01-09-2011, 07:11 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Palin is guilty as hell, so is Beck.

</div></div>

<span style="color: #000099">And you are not????</span>

Sev
01-09-2011, 07:48 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's sad is that we have a terrible tragedy and the killer b's are filling up the thread ranting about how bad Lefties are.

I don't want to get the boot on here, but Lord, I wish I could just stop posting altogether and walk away from this forum like my wife wants me to.

I really do find about 5 of the posters on here repulsive
and it turns my stomach to read their posts anymore. </div></div>

The guy is 22 years old Hondo.

There are always loons out there.

However the increase in violence by the younger generation represents the degeneration of the nuclear family, strong family values, personal responsibility, morals and code of conduct.

Nobody should be surprised or shocked that events such as this occur. Its the price you pay in a society where parents either do not have proper skills or have had their ability to properly raise their children truncated by government interference.

These are the types of actions you get in a society that puts personal responsibility in the hands of the court and government instead of the individual. The fear of reprisal has been greatly diminished in our society where the final line of defense, prison time, is not feared until a sentence is handed down and sometimes not even then.

Have no doubt that rather address the problems that lead this young man to these actions they will try to address the symptoms by passing more legislation that will further erode our freedoms rather than try to improve the moral fiber of individuals in our country.

Sev
01-09-2011, 08:05 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chopstick</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> but I'll bet a dollar against a week old doughnut that he turns out to be a leftist.

LWW </div></div>

<span style="color: #000099">Here it is. This is from a girl who has known him for years. She is on her twitter page talking about it.</span>

FACT: Jared Loughner: Left Wing, Liberal

Caitie Parker, a singer/songwriter from Oro Valley, AZ, says that she knows Jared Loughner, the gunman that shot 19 people in Tucson, Arizona, on Saturday, January 8th.She really hoped it wasn’t the same guy she went to high school with several years earlier, as he had been a really good friend. Not only did she go to high school with him, but college as well and was in a band with him. “There were 5-6 of us that hung out” in high school. Unfortunately, it was.

At that time, she said, he was very philosophical and leaned to the ‘left.’ She said, “For the Bush/Kerry election we all wore “1 term president” buttons. That election was HUGE to us.”

He had actually met Gabrielle Giffords in ‘07, and after asking her a question, told Caitie later that Gifford was “stupid and unintelligent.” The question he asked Giffords, Caitie said, “was odd & didn’t make sense, I can’t remember what it was. Just know it was weird.” The last time she had seen him in person was in 2007, in a sign language class.

Contrary to the opinion of several bloggers following the shooting, there is no evidence that Sarah Palin or Glenn Beck had any influence on Loughner. On the contrary, according to Caitie, at the time she knew him, he was left wing, quite liberal, and “oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy.” “He wore shirts & bracelets about it. & liked to discuss 2012 w/ everyone!”

Their group was “liberal in wanting to change the way the world was run, we both wanted to. He took it to an extreme I never would’ve.” She said he was a “political radical” long before the teaparty, Glenn Beck, or Sarah Palin came on the scene.

Caitie also said he was a pot head and was into the music of Hendrix, The Doors, and Anti-Flag. “We listened to political punk in high school & agreed with their leftist opinions for the most part. Anti-Flag was our band.”

She states that he adhered to the “straight edge” beliefs of Anti-flag for the first few years of High School, but “Junior year & on, no.”When she knew him, he had lot of friends, smoked pot, and dated girls, “until he got alcohol poisoning” in 2006 and dropped out of school. After that, he became very reclusive and was mainly a loner.

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>There is NO evidence that he was influenced by conservatives, but there is good evidence he was influenced by socialists.</span> His my Space page, for example, listed Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto as some of his favorite books.

He spent lots of time on My Space and You Tube using words and phrases that didn’t make much sense to express his angst with the world. (Screen grabs before his My Space was taken down - http://is.gd/koh1g - http://is.gd/koh1m) -You Tube - Introduction: Jared Loughner

<span style="color: #000099">I just turned on CNN. Guess what they are saying.

Sarah Palin, Sarah Palin, Sarah Palin, Sarah Palin, Sarah Palin

</span>

</div></div>

Well there ya have it. Who would know better than this individual?

I am sure Q and the gang will now disparage this young woman as being an agent of Palin and Beck. And quite possibly Bush.

pooltchr
01-09-2011, 08:09 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As for name calling. IMO rather cheap and abundant but not in itself incendiary. It's more "in the message" that gets the radicals and crazies going.

St.
</div></div>

The only purpose served by name calling is to generate a negative emotional response, as opposed to a rational response. It is a calculated attack tool with no intent other than to try and push someone's buttons and elevate the negativity.
You call me short, I call you fat, you call me ugly, I call you an idiot, you call my mother a witch, I call your sister a slut....sooner or later, one of us crosses the line....or did we cross the line when the whole thing started?

Think about it.

Steve

Stretch
01-09-2011, 08:54 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As for name calling. IMO rather cheap and abundant but not in itself incendiary. It's more "in the message" that gets the radicals and crazies going.

St.
</div></div>

The only purpose served by name calling is to generate a negative emotional response, as opposed to a rational response. It is a calculated attack tool with no intent other than to try and push someone's buttons and elevate the negativity.
You call me short, I call you fat, you call me ugly, I call you an idiot, you call my mother a witch, I call your sister a slut....sooner or later, one of us crosses the line....or did we cross the line when the whole thing started?

Think about it.

Steve </div></div>

We crossed the line when the whole thing started, it then becomes a question of degree. What is acceptible, or tolerable, and what requires an appology/retraction. This is a question that drives moderators nuts. It's obvious that here and in all other venues lack of dicipline and values has lead monitors to go the all, or nothing approach. Obviouly on here it's the nothing approach (or inconsistant?) Thus we participate at our own peril. It's a given. St.

Sev
01-09-2011, 09:16 AM
Looks like Jared has been link to a group called American Renaissance.

They apparently are an anti-Semitic group amongst other things.

Gifford is Jewish.

LWW
01-09-2011, 09:29 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like Jared has been link to a group called American Renaissance.

They apparently are an anti-Semitic group amongst other things.

Gifford is Jewish. </div></div>

Yep ... anti semitic fan of Karl Marx and Adokf Hitler and a Kerry campaigner.

No wonder the far left is in full panic mode.

LWW

Sev
01-09-2011, 09:31 AM
I expect our leftist friends to begin slithering back into their caves.

If they cant spin it heavy enough it will soon disappear from the news radar.
Then apparently removed from long term memory.

Gayle in MD
01-09-2011, 09:39 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The media came right out of the chute and blamed the Tea Pary and Sarah Palin.

<u>Looks like that dogs not going to hunt.</u>
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no evidence at this time that the shooting of Giffords was politically motivated, <span style='font-size: 17pt'>but it's grimly ironic that the candidate appeared on a map of House Democrats <span style="color: #3333FF">"targeted"</span> by Palin in 2010.</span>

The map controversially used actual target markers<span style="color: #990000"> they look like cross-hairs to me.</span> on locations these Democrats lived and listed their names.
Story continues below

See the controversial target map below: </div></div>

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/235408/SARAH-PALIN-TARGET-MAP.jpg

Palin is guilty as hell, so is Beck.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Likewise, Palin's rhetoric is decidedly militant. "We'll<span style='font-size: 14pt'> aim</span> for these races and many others," she wrote on her Facebook page. "This is just the first <span style='font-size: 14pt'>salvo</span> in a fight to elect people across the nation who will bring common sense to Washington. Please go to sarahpac.com and join me in the fight." </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Arizona Gun Law: Concealed Weapons Allowed Without Permit Under New Law

PAUL DAVENPORT and JONATHAN J. COOPER | <u>04/16/10 </u>07:39 PM |

PHOENIX — Favoring the constitutional right to bear arms over others' concerns about gun safety, Gov. Jan Brewer on Friday signed into law a bill making Arizona the third state allowing people to carry a concealed weapon without requiring a permit.

The measure takes effect 90 days after the current legislative session ends, which likely puts the effective date in July or August.

"I believe this legislation not only protects the Second Amendment rights of Arizona citizens, but restores those rights as well," Brewer, a Republican, said in a statement.

Alaska and Vermont now do not require permits to carry concealed weapons.

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>By eliminating the permit requirement, the Arizona legislation will allow people 21 or older to forego background checks and classes that are now required.</span> </div></div>

The GOP, the pundits etc have gone way beyond what is acceptable in attacking Obama and the Democrats. Its one crazy rumour after another.

Obama is going to take your guns!

<u>How did that turn out?..... A CLASSIC example of RW lies.</u>



There are a zillion others, but they problem really lies in the rhetoric. The demonizing of the other party and the continuing lies about how Obama hates white people and wants to turn America into a Socialist country! etc etc etc..

Here is another classic example of RW nuttyness, <span style='font-size: 14pt'>but which some NUTS might believe.</span>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bachmann Calls For McCarthyite Investigation Into Anti-American Activities Of Liberals

Appearing on MSNBC’s Hardball today, Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) attacked the patriotism of Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL), based on his alleged relationship to former Weather Underground member William Ayers and the values of Obama’s former pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright. “I’m very concerned that he may have anti-American views,” said Bachmann. “That’s what the American people are concerned about.”

<span style='font-size: 20pt'>She then went further, suggesting that all liberal views — held by people such as Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, professors, and all Americans who identify themselves as “liberals” — are “anti-American.” </span>When host Chris Matthews, stunned by her remarks, asked Bachmann how many people in Congress hold anti-American views, she responded, “You’ll have to ask them.”

Bachmann called on the media to conduct investigations into the anti-American activities of members of Congress, similar to Sen. Joseph McCarthy’s discredited House Un-American Activities Committee hearings in the 1950s. “I think people would love to see an exposé like that,” she claimed. Watch it: </div></div>

dangerous nutjob (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SQTxxkdSIs&feature=player_embedded)

These days, if you are a Dem, you are an anti-American enemy.

Q.... </div></div>

Tap Tap Tap. Excellent post, Q., and as usual, with plenty of proof.

I hope the RW dangerous rhetoric from the Tea Pary, threats to came back with their guns loaded, "Next time" and Palin's sicko map, and Republican leaders, failing to speak against the growing dangerous lies, rhetoric, and threats, about which I have been so concerned, over these last few years, will make some from the right on this site, re-consider their own illegal activities on the internet.

That it would happen in a state in which a REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR has pitted her own citizens against one another, should be cause to notice what hateful Republican Rhetoric, and leadership failure, will be cause for her to stop and consider what kind of responsibility she owns, after she has pitted people in her state, against one another, and spread hate among AZ. citizens.

Palin, should be ashamed of herself. That map of hers will go down in history as one of the most irresponsible acts by a politician, ever.

Rush, Beck, Hannity, Bachmann, all those who have thrown gas on the fires, with all of their dangerous gun rhetoric, birther lies, threats to re-load, etc., should all be taken to task for their irresponsible behavior.

This tragedy was addressed by the very Congresswoman who hovers now on the brink, in advance, after she saw Palin's map, full of gun cross hairs, on Democratic campaigners.

WE have not been seeing any resistance from Republican leaders. One Republican said, "We will use bullets, if ballots don't work." Not one Republican Leader spoke out against such outrageous irresponsible statements.

We've seen too many documented examples, of irresponsible shock jock tactics of late, by both Republicans, running for office, and their media pundits, for the hard right to successfully do what they always do, and try to minimize the obvious results of their dangerous, irresponsible actions and statements.

It is high time for Republiocan Leaders to stand up and address the fact that we all saw this coming, worried about it, warned about it, yet they went along with all of it, afraid to stand against their growing dangerous RW, gun toting Tea Partiers, wh threatened this very thing, with approval from Republican Leaders who stood with them as the threat grew, and even expanded the threat, through their own failure to be statemen enought to speak against it, or set the record straight, about the false statements, and lies about our president.

Nothing is smore absurd than for them to pretend that their view is that we are all fellow children of God, after their actions, and failure to act, over these last four years.

This tragedy could have been avoided, if some of them had been honorable, and statesmanlike.


G.

Sev
01-09-2011, 09:41 AM
The little girl that died was born on 9/11

How sad is that?

Deeman3
01-09-2011, 09:51 AM
There can be no justification for taking innocent human life. This is a crazy issue, not a political one.

Anyone that takes a young girl's life to make a point or to express their rage has lost all excuses for humanity. Their is no collective responsibility for this! Each of us has a choice each day to go out and kill others or not. There are fools and idiots on both ends of the spectrum but only the true losers in life are influenced by politics, video games or other "excuses" to harm others.

Hate is hate and crazy is crazy. This may be both but any human who is so weak as to end innocent people's lives for amy reason so pale as to gain unearned attention is so sad for us as humanity we should not struggle to assign blame to anyone but the person who would do it.

Maybe both sides should turn down the volume but none of us should allow the excuse that others, no matter how influential, can cause any other person to do such evil. If this were the case, there would be hundreds of these cases each week. It's not his parents, Sarah Palin or Nancy Pelosi that caused this fool to do this.

Sadly, he will have his 15 minutes and even be defended by some! Sick women will propose marriage to him and he will be supported by the state for decades, all while he "earns" a place in history for something vile and destructive instead of making a contribution as many of those he destroyed were trying to do.

Gayle in MD
01-09-2011, 10:02 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There can be no justification for taking innocent human life. This is a crazy issue, not a political one.

Anyone that takes a young girl's life to make a point or to express their rage has lost all excuses for humanity. Their is no collective responsibility for this! Each of us has a choice each day to go out and kill others or not. There are fools and idiots on both ends of the spectrum but only the true losers in life are influenced by politics, video games or other "excuses" to harm others.

Hate is hate and crazy is crazy. This may be both but any human who is so weak as to end innocent people's lives for amy reason so pale as to gain unearned attention is so sad for us as humanity we should not struggle to assign blame to anyone but the person who would do it.

Maybe both sides should turn down the volume but none of us should allow the excuse that others, no matter how influential, can cause any other person to do such evil. If this were the case, there would be hundreds of these cases each week. It's not his parents, Sarah Palin or Nancy Pelosi that caused this fool to do this.

Sadly, he will have his 15 minutes and even be defended by some! Sick women will propose marriage to him and he will be supported by the state for decades, all while he "earns" a place in history for something vile and destructive instead of making a contribution as many of those he destroyed were trying to do. </div></div>
Cause? Maybe not. Contribute to dangerous results, with irresponsible bahavior? Oh yes they do.

When I was growing up, we never saw the kind of threats of violence, from any political organization, accepted by Representatives of our government, and worse, they engaged with it, cheered over it, failed to speak against it, and that was irresponsible, IMO.

Societal bahavior impacts everyone, and sadly, some fail to consider how many nutjobs are out there, when they are focused ONLY on power.

Our own Homeland Security, and several other respected safety, public watch organizations, have been concerned about the growing violent rhetoric, militias, and gun rhetoric, for these last four years.

When people are unablanced, they definitely are more easily influenced.

As I said, Palin's map will eventually be seen for one of the most irresponsible political devices, in our history. It had a gun site, right on the congresswoman who is now fighting for her life.

I predict a huge backlash against Palin, Bachmann, the gun threats of the Tea Party, and their like, I HOPE!!!!


This horrible event shows how ignored, growing and sick threats in a society, can grow into horrible results.

A horrible tragedy that many of us anticipated, given what we've been watching for the last four years, as did Homeland Security, and the Southern Povertry Law Center, and many others.

G.

pooltchr
01-09-2011, 10:25 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As I said, Palin's map will eventually be seen for one of the most irresponsible political devices, in our history.
G. </div></div>

Yep! Ranks right up there with a Dem standing in the halls of congress in front of cameras threatening hand to hand combat in congress.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Steve

Deeman3
01-09-2011, 11:10 AM
How can it be any different than it is now? The very fact that one side accuses the other by using the same inflated retoric about the other side shows just how idiotic both sides are.

No one can stop blaming the others long enough to address the problems. No wonder we can't make progress in the simple things when all want so desperately to lay blame on their political opponents. Indeed, hate from the Daily Kos or from Rush may play a role in these type events but much more likely is a very sick individual who choose to do this terrible act as an addiction to a violent vidoe game may have desensitized him to violence but if scoring a few points against the other side is the most important thing here, we will never learn how to get along.

This was a Blue Dog Democrat, not a far left or far right politician. It seems more likely that this is just a sad little man who has obvious mental issues and not a political actor.

There are always nut jobs out there and, despite the clam or rancor that surrounds them, the real crazys will do things like this on occasion. From reading his stuff on the internet, he didn't have enough sense to have a political position.

Gayle in MD
01-09-2011, 11:33 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How can it be any different than it is now? The very fact that one side accuses the other by using the same inflated retoric about the other side shows just how idiotic both sides are.

No one can stop blaming the others long enough to address the problems. No wonder we can't make progress in the simple things when all want so desperately to lay blame on their political opponents. Indeed, hate from the Daily Kos or from Rush may play a role in these type events but much more likely is a very sick individual who choose to do this terrible act as an addiction to a violent vidoe game may have desensitized him to violence but if scoring a few points against the other side is the most important thing here, we will never learn how to get along.

This was a Blue Dog Democrat, not a far left or far right politician. It seems more likely that this is just a sad little man who has obvious mental issues and not a political actor.

There are always nut jobs out there and, despite the clam or rancor that surrounds them, the real crazys will do things like this on occasion. From reading his stuff on the internet, he didn't have enough sense to have a political position. </div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Indeed, hate from the Daily Kos
<span style="color: #990000">Could you show me any reerences from The Daily Kos, to Reloading, using the second amendment if voting doesn't work? Any maps with gun sights, targeting Republicans? Any threats to show up with loaded guns at political events.

Deeman, I know you're very intelligent, but it simply is obvious, that the whole gun and killing rhetoric, in recent years, has come from the right, not the left. </span>
or from Rush may play a role in these type events
<span style="color: #990000">Thank you for that. That is all that I was tryng to say from the start, and all that I have been trying to say, all along. </span>

but much more likely is a very sick individual who choose to do this terrible act as an addiction to a violent vidoe game may have desensitized him to violence but if scoring a few points against the other side is the most important thing here, we will never learn how to get along.

</div></div>


<span style="color: #990000">I'm all for a political process that leaves gun threats, out of it.

It would never occur to someone like me, to fantasize with art work, by placing a grave stone, with another person's name on it, to depict the death of someone from the right, while they are fighting cancer, for example.

I would also never continue to post behind anyone who requested that I leave them alone, and not post to them.

The filth, slander and threats I see on here from the radical right, is far more toxic than I can imagine any moderator overlooking. That's why I only read your posts, and Sacks. I have no probloemj agreeing to disagree.

The AZers and three members who were here before them, are people I have no desire, nor intention, of ever communicating with.

But back to this tragedy. We were warned by Homeland Security, and other public watch organizations, about the dangers of the growing "gun and killing rhetoric" being mixed with our political debates, and which we have seen solely from the right in recent years.

I can honestly say, I have not seen any of this from the left, in recent years.

I feel that people like Palin, Beck, Coulter, Bachmann, rush, anyone who contributed to dangerous and violent rhetoric, hold some responsibility for any kind of gun violence, after contributing to that same sort of rhetoric.

G. </span>

pooltchr
01-09-2011, 11:33 AM
Do you think Kos or Rush or Palin are the cause, or do they just reflect the thoughts of the radical partisans on both sides. IOW, do they guide the thinking of their followers, or do they pander to the groups that are the extreme?

Personally, I don't think a radio personality, or blogger, or former governor have the ability to cause people to do crazy things. I think crazy people look for anyone or anything to justify their insanity.

Steve

Sev
01-09-2011, 12:20 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How can it be any different than it is now? The very fact that one side accuses the other by using the same inflated retoric about the other side shows just how idiotic both sides are.

No one can stop blaming the others long enough to address the problems. No wonder we can't make progress in the simple things when all want so desperately to lay blame on their political opponents. Indeed, hate from the Daily Kos or from Rush may play a role in these type events but much more likely is a very sick individual who choose to do this terrible act as an addiction to a violent vidoe game may have desensitized him to violence but if scoring a few points against the other side is the most important thing here, we will never learn how to get along.

This was a Blue Dog Democrat, not a far left or far right politician. It seems more likely that this is just a sad little man who has obvious mental issues and not a political actor.

There are always nut jobs out there and, despite the clam or rancor that surrounds them, the real crazys will do things like this on occasion. From reading his stuff on the internet, he didn't have enough sense to have a political position. </div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Indeed, hate from the Daily Kos
<span style="color: #990000">Could you show me any reerences from The Daily Kos, to Reloading, using the second amendment if voting doesn't work? Any maps with gun sights, targeting Republicans? Any threats to show up with loaded guns at political events.

Deeman, I know you're very intelligent, but it simply is obvious, that the whole gun and killing rhetoric, in recent years, has come from the right, not the left. </span>
or from Rush may play a role in these type events
<span style="color: #990000">Thank you for that. That is all that I was tryng to say from the start, and all that I have been trying to say, all along. </span>

but much more likely is a very sick individual who choose to do this terrible act as an addiction to a violent vidoe game may have desensitized him to violence but if scoring a few points against the other side is the most important thing here, we will never learn how to get along.

</div></div>


<span style="color: #990000">I'm all for a political process that leaves gun threats, out of it.

It would never occur to someone like me, to fantasize with art work, by placing a grave stone, with another person's name on it, to depict the death of someone from the right, while they are fighting cancer, for example.

I would also never continue to post behind anyone who requested that I leave them alone, and not post to them.

The filth, slander and threats I see on here from the radical right, is far more toxic than I can imagine any moderator overlooking. That's why I only read your posts, and Sacks. I have no probloemj agreeing to disagree.

The AZers and three members who were here before them, are people I have no desire, nor intention, of ever communicating with.

But back to this tragedy. We were warned by Homeland Security, and other public watch organizations, about the dangers of the growing "gun and killing rhetoric" being mixed with our political debates, and which we have seen solely from the right in recent years.

I can honestly say, I have not seen any of this from the left, in recent years.

I feel that people like Palin, Beck, Coulter, Bachmann, rush, anyone who contributed to dangerous and violent rhetoric, hold some responsibility for any kind of gun violence, after contributing to that same sort of rhetoric.

G. </span> </div></div>

Perhaps if you took off your blindfold and opened your eyes it would help.

Sev
01-09-2011, 12:24 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There can be no justification for taking innocent human life. This is a crazy issue, not a political one.

Anyone that takes a young girl's life to make a point or to express their rage has lost all excuses for humanity. Their is no collective responsibility for this! Each of us has a choice each day to go out and kill others or not. There are fools and idiots on both ends of the spectrum but only the true losers in life are influenced by politics, video games or other "excuses" to harm others.

Hate is hate and crazy is crazy. This may be both but any human who is so weak as to end innocent people's lives for amy reason so pale as to gain unearned attention is so sad for us as humanity we should not struggle to assign blame to anyone but the person who would do it.

Maybe both sides should turn down the volume but none of us should allow the excuse that others, no matter how influential, can cause any other person to do such evil. If this were the case, there would be hundreds of these cases each week. It's not his parents, Sarah Palin or Nancy Pelosi that caused this fool to do this.

Sadly, he will have his 15 minutes and even be defended by some! Sick women will propose marriage to him and he will be supported by the state for decades, all while he "earns" a place in history for something vile and destructive instead of making a contribution as many of those he destroyed were trying to do. </div></div>

Dee the problem and solution is in the family unit, family values and moral structure.

The family unit across America has been disintegrating for decades. As have values and morals.

Much as sadly been passed on to the school systems and government.

If it is not addressed at the family level no amount of legislation will ever solve the problem. The government is the problem. A strong family structure is the solution.

Deeman3
01-09-2011, 01:50 PM
Very true! The moral decay of the family as well as the recent trend of replacing personal responsibility of individuals with laying blame on outside or societal influences makes it so easy to put it off on political opponents.

There has never been a standard for parenting but what passes as a family these days is not encouraging for the future. As they/we further destroy the family unit and celebrate that as progress, it will only get worse.

Fortunately, only the real political nuts will buy this as a political issue while the reasonable will see through the posturing going on now.

Sev
01-09-2011, 04:26 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very true! The moral decay of the family as well as the recent trend of replacing personal responsibility of individuals with laying blame on outside or societal influences makes it so easy to put it off on political opponents.

There has never been a standard for parenting but what passes as a family these days is not encouraging for the future. As they/we further destroy the family unit and celebrate that as progress, it will only get worse.

Fortunately, only the real political nuts will buy this as a political issue while the reasonable will see through the posturing going on now. </div></div>

Always look to the last thing you did before it stopped working.

The decline of the family unit began when the boomer generation began coming into maturity. Views and outlooks on how children were to be raised and treaded within a family began changing rapidly at that time. The age old tradition of one generation teaching the succeeding generation the techniques of raising a family were being abandoned. Government intrusion in the form of entitlements that had good intentions but were in turn misused also began changing the family landscape. School systems also began to change and have in many cases found themselves in opposition to parents.

We are now several generations into this and people fail to recognize the danger of not having a strong nuclear family. Worse they have begun to believe that it is both the governments and school systems responsibility to make their children in to good citizens.
That is not the responsibility of either. Nor should it ever be.

eg8r
01-09-2011, 06:29 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I was growing up, we never saw the kind of threats of violence, from any political organization, accepted by Representatives of our government, and worse, they engaged with it, cheered over it, failed to speak against it, and that was irresponsible, IMO.

Societal bahavior impacts everyone, and sadly, some fail to consider how many nutjobs are out there, when they are focused ONLY on power.
</div></div>There was a lot less violence back then and there was a lot more religion in our schools and government. Now we have more violence and more people trying their best to strip God from everything.

eg8r

Deeman3
01-09-2011, 07:04 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I was growing up, we never saw the kind of threats of violence, from any political organization, accepted by Representatives of our government, and worse, they engaged with it, cheered over it, failed to speak against it, and that was irresponsible, IMO.

Societal bahavior impacts everyone, and sadly, some fail to consider how many nutjobs are out there, when they are focused ONLY on power.
</div></div>There was a lot less violence back then and there was a lot more religion in our schools and government. Now we have more violence and more people trying their best to strip God from everything.

That might be true if you are willing tio forget the SDS, the Black Panthers, the WEathermen and scores of other rafixal political groups. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

eg8r </div></div>

Sev
01-10-2011, 06:29 AM
Well folks.
Looks like the guy was some sort of occultist or devil worshiper. They found a shrine on the parents property.
Apparently students and teachers were more than a bit afraid of this guy. One has a journal of reflags on that show there was a problem brewing.

It also appears he had some sort of fascination with Gifford.

Also it appears that the parents are a bit odd and were considered loners.
They seem to have disappeared.

Like I said. It all starts in the home.

So much for talk radio and Sarah Palin being the root of the problem.

Not that it will stop Gayle from babbling about right winger lunacy and rhetoric for another few pages.

LWW
01-10-2011, 06:39 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well folks.
Looks like the guy was some sort of occultist or devil worshiper. They found a shrine on the parents property.
Apparently students and teachers were more than a bit afraid of this guy. One has a journal of reflags on that show there was a problem brewing.

It also appears he had some sort of fascination with Gifford.

Also it appears that the parents are a bit odd and were considered loners.
They seem to have disappeared.

Like I said. It all starts in the home.

So much for talk radio and Sarah Palin being the root of the problem.

Not that it will stop Gayle from babbling about right winger lunacy and rhetoric for another few pages.
</div></div>

Let's review.

He was a:

- Kerry campaigner.

- Leftist.

- Fan of Karl Marx and Adolf Hitler.

- Anti semite.

- 9/11 troofer.

- Bush hating conspiracy believer.

Isn't it about time for Gee to declare him a rethuglican?

All that remains is for the most insane of reasons to blame this on Bush, and it will fade from the news.

The rest of us see this as an inevitable result of the state's assault on personal liberty and responsibility.

LWW

Qtec
01-10-2011, 06:45 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe both sides should turn down the volume </div></div>

No. Its for the dems to call the GOP, Fox and Beck out for what they are.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Preliminary examinations of Loughner's web presence suggest he shared passions with both the far left and far right. <span style='font-size: 14pt'>The evidence -- which includes a video linking government mind control to grammar -- also suggests he may have been mentally ill.</span><span style="color: #990000">No kidding.</span>

Arizona Democrat Rep. Raul Grijalva, meanwhile, told The Nation in the wake of the shooting that <u>"we're feeding anger, hatred, and division for quite a while. Maybe it is time for elected officials and leaders in this country that have been feeding that disease to realize that there are consequences to it."</u>

Asked if the Tea Party right was to blame, he added: "[When] you stoke these flames, and you go to public meetings and you scream at the elected officials, you threaten them--you make us expendable you make us part of the cannon fodder. For a while, you've been feeding this hatred, this division...you feed it, you encourage it....Something's going to happen. People are feeding this monster....<span style='font-size: 17pt'>Some of the extreme right wing has made demonization of elected officials their priority.</span>"

Giffords is in the beginning of her third term in office after recently winning a very close election. She is a conservative Democrat in a conservative state, but was the target of heated rhetoric. </div></div>



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At an event roughly three years ago, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords took a question from Jared Loughner, the man accused of trying to assassinate her and killing six other people. According to two of his high school friends the question was essentially this: "What is government if words have no meaning?"

Loughner was angry about her response - she read the question and didn't have much to say.

"He was like ... 'What do you think of these people who are working for the government and they can't describe what they do?"' one friend told The Associated Press on Sunday. "He did not like government officials, how they spoke. <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Like they were just trying to cover up some conspiracy.</span>" </div></div>

Sounds like Glenn Beck to me.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The friends' comments paint a picture bolstered by other former classmates and Loughner's own Internet postings: that of a social outcast with nihilistic,<span style='font-size: 20pt'> <u>almost indecipherable beliefs steeped in mistrust and paranoia.</u></span> </div></div>

Beck again...and a part of the Republican party/ TParty.

Ever since Obama took power the message was Obama wants to take over the country and make the US a socialist country.

'He will take your guns and then your wealth and redistribute it to the blacks because he hates white people and white culture,... I mean, he is a Muslim after all...Geez, he wasn't even born here..... he was educated in a Madrassa for crips sake!
He aim is to destroy the country. Bring it to its knees, declare himself King and enslave the whites...all with the help of Soros...you know....the Devil.'

Its only a matter of time before someone believes this crap and decides he DOES have the right to use violence to 'take back his country'.





Q

Sev
01-10-2011, 06:58 AM
What we should be worried about is copycats.
This guy achieved his end and didnt suffer a scratch.
If he doesnt get the death penalty he will be a hero in prison.

Gayle in MD
01-10-2011, 09:29 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very true! The moral decay of the family as well as the recent trend of replacing personal responsibility of individuals with laying blame on outside or societal influences makes it so easy to put it off on political opponents.

<span style="color: #990000"> I thought you from the right had a history of blaming it all on American teachers???? </span>

There has never been a standard for parenting but what passes as a family these days is not encouraging for the future. As they/we further destroy the family unit and celebrate that as progress, it will only get worse.

<span style="color: #990000"> And divorce is one of the reasons. Add to that, fathers who don't financially support their own kids.

I also add, bringing the divorce rate down, in the bible belt, where it is the highest in the country, would help. </span>

Fortunately, only the real political nuts will buy this as a political issue while the reasonable will see through the posturing going on now. </div></div>

<span style="color: #990000">All due respect, Dee, failing to address the continued killing threats made by numerous Republicans, is hardly reasonable, IMO.

The ill are easily influenced. Secondly, these automatic weapons are a threat to society. A person doesn't need rounds of twennty annd fifty, to protect himself. A man and his wife, each with a 38 Detective Special, or one eamn shot gun, can protect themselves in their home.

But every time we see one of these mass shootings, the NRA further hypes up the second amendment rights, BS, failing completely to address the fact that a nutjob like this guy in AZ, can go and buy a weapon and kill and maime twenty people in 12 seconds, according to one of the by-standers!

AZ was trying to legislate to legalize carrying guns in schools! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

In this country we put the names of people who got a DUI in the newspapers, but we don't make people wait a month, or put their names and pictures are in the newspapers, before we sell them assault weapons! AZ is one of the worst offenders as far as gun regulations go.

That woman who went to school with this guy, and others who came into contact with him, might well have seen that he was trying to get an assault weapon, if our gun laws were tightened.

The right wants to push for no gun regulations, and at the same time, they defend their RW politicians after they use the kinds of irresponsible killing and gun references that have taken over our political discourse.

The NRA, Beck, Palin, Bachmann, Angle, Armey and the Tea Party Leaders, owe this country, and the victims of this atrocity an apology, at the very least. They all need to STFU about guns and the second amendment remedies. Callooing the President a gangster, Bachmann, accusing her collegues in the Congress, from the left, antiAmerican, annd calling for the press to do an investigation.

The right has been running their mouths, re-writing history as they go. Now, they're trying to paint McCarthy, as a hero! Useing revolutionary rhetoric, and delegitimizing the President, calling him a terrorist...

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

G.</span>

Sev
01-13-2011, 08:25 PM
Over 33,000 gun laws on the books. One would might begin to think they dont work. And the source of the problem is in another area.