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bobroberts
01-20-2011, 12:47 PM
Jeffrey Anderson has a characteristically perceptive piece over at NRO's "Critical Condition" blog on "Three Things We¹ve Learned from Repeal."

His most striking lesson has to do with the centrality of Obamacare to the 2012 election--and the centrality of that election to our future:

"This will set up a battle royale in 2012. On March 21, 2010, the day that the House passed Obamacare, Rep. Paul Ryan (R., Wis.) declared, 'This moment may mark a temporary conclusion of the health-care debate, but its place in history has not yet been decided. If this passes, the quest to reclaim the American idea is not over. The fight to reapply our founding principles is not finished. It is just a steeper hill to climb, and it is a climb that we will make!'

Several major steps in that climb have now been completed: promoting public knowledge of Obamacare's almost endless shortcomings, winning the election of 2010, and passing a repeal bill through the House. Several more are still to come. But, in the end, as has been evident all along to anyone who¹s been paying attention, this debate will not be settled by any entity other than the one that the Democrats were so determined to defy in the first place: the American citizenry.


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Everything now points to the presidential election of 2012. Unlike President Clinton with HillaryCare, President Obama can¹t escape Obamacare. Unless the Republicans are foolish enough to send him partial-repeal legislation that he can sign, he is stuck with a horribly unpopular partisan monstrosity that essentially bears his name. He can tack to the middle on everything else, but he cannot--without the Republicans' help--tack to the middle on Obamacare. He cannot--unless the Republicans let him--make it merely somewhat less terrible and thereby attempt to save it. Apart from the prospect of Republicans playing right into his hands, only three possibilities remain: public opinion must shift; Obama must disavow Obamacare; or he must go down with it.

He wanted it this way. He wanted Obamacare to be "comprehensive legislation," passed without compromise and without input from the minority party. The fate of his presidency is now tied to whether or not he can convince people that they want this; that they want a government takeover of health care, an unprecedented consolidation of power in Washington, and a colossally expensive new entitlement when we are already $14 trillion in debt. More than anything else, the 2012 presidential election will hinge on these questions.

Republicans have pushed repeal through the House. Now, to push repeal to its conclusion, they must win the presidency. It will be a lot easier to win with someone like Ryan at the top of the ticket, someone who¹s been involved in the battles over Obamacare, who knows his stuff inside and out, and who can debate Obama and win. But whoever the nominee is, November 6, 2012, will decide the fate of Obama, the fate of Obamacare, and, to some significant degree, the fate of a nation that remains, as Hamilton wrote in Federalist No. 1, "in many respects the most interesting in the world."

My conclusion from this? The 2012 GOP presidential nomination is too important to waste. And it's too important for candidates who might be successful to pass up. Any Republican leader who cares about the future of the country, and who thinks it's possible he or she might be the best nominee, should keep an open mind about running. Donors, activists and citizens should keep an open mind about who would prove to be the best nominee, and watch to see how they all perform--in Congress, in statehouses, in debates, and on the stump--over the next year. It's worth getting this nomination righ

Soflasnapper
01-20-2011, 01:10 PM
He wanted it this way. He wanted Obamacare to be "comprehensive legislation," passed without compromise and without input from the minority party.

If that is so, it's hard to explain the process that occurred. Even in the House, where it was closer to a shut-out of GOP input since it isn't required in the majority always wins rules of voting there, one committee accepted 65 GOP amendments and asked that they be passed by unanimous consent. (The GOP refused, and demanded all these amendments be debated even though the Dems accepted them all, as a way to slow-walk the process.)

In the Senate, Chairman Max Baucus was allowed to confer endlessly with some Republicans to attempt some kind of compromise, so that nothing was done until the summer recess allowed the street theater of crashing the town halls with angry opponents shouting down the proceedings and refusing to let debate occur.

LWW
01-20-2011, 04:44 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">one committee accepted 65 GOP amendments and asked that they be passed by unanimous consent.</div></div>

What were the amendments?

LWW

Sev
01-20-2011, 07:22 PM
I cant wait to see this debate unfold over the course of the next 2 years.

Soflasnapper
01-20-2011, 09:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">one committee accepted 65 GOP amendments and asked that they be passed by unanimous consent.</div></div>

What were the amendments?

LWW </div></div>

From http://www.slate.com/id/2223023/

They report the number of GOP amendments in the bill grew to 161.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Of the 788 amendments filed, 67 came from Democrats and 721 from Republicans. (That disparity drew jeers that Republicans were trying to slow things down. Another explanation may be that they offered so many so they could later claim—as they are now, in fact, claiming—that most of their suggestions went unheeded.) Only 197 amendments were passed in the end—36 from Democrats and 161 from Republicans. And of those 161 GOP amendments, Senate Republicans classify 29 as substantive and 132 as technical.
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Yet many of the GOP amendments on this incomplete list do seem pretty substantive. For example, one amendment offered by Oklahoma's Tom Coburn requires members of Congress and their staff to enroll in the government-run health insurance program. Another, sponsored by Lamar Alexander of Tennessee, would "establish an auto advisory council to make recommendations to the Secretary of the Treasury regarding how best to represent the taxpayers of the United States as the majority owner of General Motors." An amendment written by North Carolina's Richard Burr requires that "a private plan would be exempt from any federal or state requirement related to quality improvement and reporting if the community health insurance option is not subject to the specific requirement."

The list goes on. An amendment from Mike Enzi of Wyoming promises "to protect pro-patient plans and prevent rationing." Another of his would "prohibit the government run plan from limiting access to end of life care." An amendment from New Hampshire's Judd Gregg "requires all savings associated with follow-on biologics to go towards deficit reduction."

There are some technical-seeming amendments, too. For example, an amendment from Burr (which was accepted) says, "On line 23 after 'groups' insert 'and reduces the cost of health care.' " Another amendment, proposed by Coburn, "[d]efines [the] average work week as 40 hours."

Again: We're working with limited information here. The summaries are vague. There's no accounting yet for the other 80 or so Republican amendments that were included in the legislation. But in this sampling, at least, it appears that a good portion of the GOP amendments offered were substantive (which, of course, is hardly a criticism). Whether that makes the bill "bipartisan" is a separate question.</div></div>

A partial list of roughly half of those offered supplied by GOP staffers to Slate (linked in the piece):

Bingaman 204 To reduce individual penalties to a maximum of $750 a year Passed
Brown 201 To clarify the children's hospitals that may participate in the 340B program Passed
Burr 4 A private plan would be exempt from any federal or state requirement related to rating if the community health insurance option is not subject to the specific requirement. Passed
Casey 200 One time, temporary and independent commission to advise the Secretary in the development of the essential benefit package Passed
Coburn 226 Requires Members of Congress and congressional staff to enroll in government-run health insurance program (sorry folks) Passed
Coburn 237 No discrimination for refusing to perform assisted suicides (conscience protection) Passed
Coburn 314 Any advisory committee to HHS Secretary must have at least half its membership composed of physicians Passed
Coburn 320 A complete replacement: the Patients' Choice Act Passed
Hagan 200 To provide an exception to the employer mandate provisions for seasonal or temporary farm workers Passed
Harkin 202 Provider non-discrimination Passed
Kennedy 205 No health care provider or entity is excluded from contracting with an insurance plan participating in the Gateway on the basis that the provider or entity refuses to perform abortions if performing abortions would be contrary to the religious or moral beliefs of the individual or entity. Passed
Merkley 200 To amend the term qualified employer Passed
Reed 201 Nothing in Title I shall compel an individual to enroll in a qualified health plan or participate in a Gateway Passed
Reed 202 Modifies preventive services section of the Gateway Passed
Reed 203 Modifies medical loss ratios and quality sections of the Gateway Passed
Reed 204 To require that reports on quality measures for health plan performance be submitted to the Gateway Passed
Reed 205 To provide for access to information and assistance through the Gateway Passed
Sanders 203 To apply the False Claims Act to the Gateway participants Passed
Whitehouse 201 Modifies list of stakeholders Gateway must consult with to include educated health care consumers Passed
Alexander 202 Prohibits Medicaid expansions and increases in Medicaid provider reimbursement rates from resulting in increased costs for the States. Failed
Brown 200 Biologics - a la Waxman Failed
Burr 34 The provisions of Subtitle A shall not apply unless the Secretary finds that implementation of such provisions will not increase the overall cost of health care. (Or increase the cost of health care by more than 1%) FAiled
Coburn 209 Strikes provisions related to Gateway risk pool Failed
Coburn 210 Ensures HHS will have feedback from States regarding the management of their affairs Failed
Coburn 246 No Discrimination for Refusing to Do Abortions (conscience protection) Failed
Coburn 270 Prevents abortion mandates Failed
Coburn 272 Prevents the invalidation of State laws which regulate abortion Failed Failed (as modified)
Coburn 273 Prevent Abortion Clinics from being sub grantees of Federally Qualified Health Centers Failed
Coburn 302 Ensure a level playing field for Gateways Failed
Coburn 310 Strike clauses which empower the HHS Secretary, an unelected, unaccountable bureaucrat (over 100 times in this Title alone) Failed
Enzi 201 To eliminate subsidies for those above 250 percent of poverty Failed
Enzi 202 To provide for reductions in subsidies Failed
Enzi 207 To limit the total amount that may be appropriated for the government run plan Failed
Enzi 227 To modify the permissible rate bands Failed
Enzi 253 "To require the community health insurance option
to comply with all State benefit mandates." Failed
Enzi 255 To limit those eligible for subsidies. Failed
Enzi 277 To remove abortion mandates Failed
Enzi 289 To ensure adequate funding for Federally Qualified Health Centers and the National Health Service Corps. Failed
Gregg 230 Follow- On-Biologics. The Affordable Biologics for Consumers Act (Gregg) from the 110th Congress. Failed
Gregg 235 Reinsurance for Retirees. Convert $10 billion in funding for retiree reinsurance program from mandatory spending to an authorization. Failed
Hatch 204 Strike and replace Sec. 171 (FQHCs) and Sec. 173 (NHSC) to replace with levels contained in P.L. 110-335 Failed
Hatch 208 To Expand on the Sense of the Senate on the affordable choices to include Medicare Advantage plans. Failed
Hatch 225 To apply the same solvency and licensure requirements to the government plan as the private plans. Failed
Hatch 227 To prevent tax-funded abortions unless the life of the mother is endangered or if the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest. Failed
Hatch 230 To sunset the employer mandate if it results in lower wages or job loss. Failed
Murkowski 213 Raises the threshold for the employer mandate from 25 to 50. Failed
Roberts 201 Striking the Employer Mandate Failed
Roberts 206 Prohibiting credits from being funded by higher Federal penalties on employers Failed
Roberts 207 Prohibiting credits from being funded through Medicare cuts Failed
Roberts 208 Prohibiting credits from being funded by higher Federal taxes or penalties on individuals and families Failed
Roberts 212 More accurately and completely describing the Federal employees health benefit program Failed
Sanders 200 Single Payer Failed
Bingaman 202 Individuals do not have to consent to IRS disclosure of information for the purpose of receiving subsidies Accepted
Burr 1 Strike the section creating the Community Health Insurance Option Accepted
Burr 2 A private plan would be exempt from any federal or state requirement if the community health insurance option is not subject to that specific requirement, including requirements related to guaranteed renewal, rating, preexisting conditions, non-discrimination, quality improvement and reporting, fraud and abuse, benefit mandates, solvency and financial requirements, market conduct, prompt payment, appeals and grievances, privacy and confidentiality, licensure, and benefit plan material or information. Accepted
Burr 7 A private plan would be exempt from any federal or state requirement related to quality improvement and reporting if the community health insurance option is not subject to the specific requirement. Accepted
Burr 17 The Community Health Insurance Option must comply with state laws (if any) relating to guaranteed renewal, rating, preexisting conditions, non-discrimination, quality improvement and reporting, fraud and abuse, benefit mandates, solvency and financial requirements, market conduct, prompt payment, appeals and grievances, privacy and confidentiality, licensure, and benefit plan material or information. Accepted
Burr 32 In facility controlled by the federal government or a state where marketing or promotional materials related to the community health insurance option are made available, marketing or promotional related materials for private health insurance plans shall not be prohibited. Materials include information pamphlets, guidebooks, enrollment forms, or other materials deemed reasonable for display. Accepted
Burr 33 If a state permits providers to negotiate rates with health plans, nothing in this section shall prohibit providers from negotiating rates paid by the Community Health Insurance Option in that state. Accepted
Burr 35 Full Accounting of Costs Accepted
Burr 38 Gateway Criteria Page 42—On line 23 after “groups” insert “and reduces the cost of health care.” Accepted
Burr 42 Gateway Surcharges #4 Page 46—on line 11 add new “(C) Further Limitation-- No funds collected through a Gateway surcharge for administrative and operational expenses may be used for staff retreats, promotional giveaways, excessive executive compensation, or promotion of federal or state legislative and regulatory modifications.” Accepted
Burr 46 Establishing “Shared Responsibility Payments” Page 104—Require the Secretary of Treasury and the Secretary of HHS to promulgate a proposed rule establishing the annual “Shared Responsibility Payment” through a notice-and-comment process. Accepted
Coburn 216 Ensures American children have high-quality health coverage (our SCHIP alternative) Accepted
Coburn 225 Ensures no insurer will be required to participate in any government-run health insurance program. Accepted
Coburn 228 Requires the use of available technologies to reduce and help prevent waste, fraud, and abuse Accepted
Coburn 229 No taxpayer funds for assisted suicide Accepted
Coburn 231 Requires Gateways to publish their costs, fees, fines on website Accepted
Coburn 280 Preserve and protect Patients' rights Accepted
Coburn 293 Requires that scientific data used for Government decisions be made publicly available Accepted
Coburn 295 Require official HHS regulations for any changes to Gateway operations (with notice and comment period) Accepted
Coburn 298 Defines average work week as 40 hours Accepted
Coburn 307 Allow independent insurance agents to receive grants (points out absurdity of allowing unions) Accepted
Coburn 312 Preserving State Laws on prescription interchangeability Accepted
Coburn 315 Requires Secretary and OIG to defund Gateways found with fraud and abuse Accepted
Coburn 327 Modifies provisions related to risk adjustment, allowing small group risk adjustment Accepted
Dodd 200 Promotion of informed choice of health insurance coverage; prohibition on recession; consumer assistance grants Accepted Passed
Enzi 203 To amend the actuarial value of plans to the level of Massachusetts plans Accepted Failed
Enzi 204 To permit individuals eligible for Medicaid to opt out of Medicaid and enroll in a qualified health plan Accepted Failed
Enzi 210 to prohibit the government run plan from limiting access to end of life care Accepted
Enzi 211 "To limit subsidies to those below 250 percent of
poverty." Accepted
Enzi 212 Enzi/Baucus Medical litigation reform bill – health courts Accepted
Enzi 215 Prior to implementation, Sec of Labor to certify pay or play won’t result in lower wages or higher unemployment Accepted
Enzi 230 To modify provisions relating to the cost of health care coverage Accepted
Enzi 235 To prevent fraud and abuse Accepted
Enzi 241 To ensure that an individual enrolled in the community health insurance option has access to all services Accepted
Enzi 242 to ensure small, rural States are afforded the same opportunities as larger States regarding the gateway creation grant money Accepted
Enzi 250 If GAO finds complying with the mandated quality activities drives up costs without increasing quality, the quality section shall cease to exist Accepted
Enzi 256 To allow entities a reasonable amount of time to implement the provisions of this act Accepted
Enzi 272 To prevent denial of care based on patient age, disability, medical dependency or quality of life. Accepted
Enzi 274 To protect pro-patient plans and prevent rationing. Accepted
Enzi 278 To prohibit rationing on the basis of patient age, disability, medical dependency or quality of life. Accepted
Enzi 280 To prevent the denial of end of life care. Accepted
Enzi 285 To prohibit the Secretary of Health and Human Services from limiting access to end of life care. Accepted
Enzi 295 To set forth the Sense of the Senate that a biosimilars pathway balancing innovation and consumer interests should be established . Accepted
Enzi 296 To make technical amendments Accepted
Gregg 209 Requires Accurate Calculation of Medical-Loss Ratio. The amendment strikes the exemption for Gateway-related administrative expenses in the calculation of the medical loss ratio which must be publically posted under the Kennedy bill. In addition, the amendment requires that the posting include an itemized list of costs associated with compliance with the Kennedy bill. Accepted
Gregg 210 Medicare Solvency Prior to New Gov’t Run Plan. This amendment prohibits the Community Health Insurance Option (the government-run plan) from being in effect until the Medicare trustees make a determination that general revenue Medicare funding is expected to be 45% or less of Medicare outlays for the current fiscal year or any of the next six fiscal years. (the standard of solvency from the Medicare trigger) Accepted
Gregg 213 Gov’t Run Plan Solvency Warning. The amendment requires HHS to conduct an annual report to Congress on the solvency of the community health insurance option. If in any year the report finds that the community health insurance option is insolvent a community health insurance option solvency warning is issued. In response to the warning, the President must submit a plan to Congress to make the plan solvent- with fast track procedures for Congressional consideration identical to those under the Medicare funding warning. Accepted
Gregg 224 Requires Government Plan Start Up Funds to be Returned to the Treasury. The amendment requires that the funds under the Community Health Insurance Option (the government-run plan) are repaid to the Treasury of the United States. Under the Kennedy bill the funds are re-paid to the Secretary of HHS. Accepted
Gregg 226 Modifies Small Business Exemption for Employer Mandate. The amendment stipulates that the employer mandate shall not apply to any small business as classified in the Table of Small Business Size Standards, as established by the Small Business Association. The Kennedy bill exempts small businesses with 25 of fewer employees. The SBA list of small businesses is more accurate and includes a variety of small business sizes dependant on the industry. Accepted
Gregg 232 Follow- On-Biologics. The amendment requires all savings associated with follow-on biologics to go towards deficit reduction. Accepted
Harkin 201 Authority for wellness and prevention programs - HIPAA premium variation raised to 30 percent Accepted
Hatch 207 Requires that plans offered through the Gateway will not deny individual benefits for religious or spiritual health care Accepted
Hatch 209 Strikes Sec. 611 and replaces it with a GAO study on whether 340B program should be expanded Accepted
Hatch 218 To provide that low-income credits be available both inside and outside the Gateway Accepted
Hatch 221 To provide that the employer may specify the issuer for plan selections Accepted
Hatch 222 To strike the government plan Accepted
Hatch 223 To modify provisions relating to navigators to allow participation of qualified insurance brokers Accepted
Hatch 224 To allow the State instead of the Gateway to define a qualified health plan Accepted
McCain 205 Allow insurance carriers to maintain separate pooling for individual, small and large groups Accepted
McCain 206 Require members of Congress to participate in Community Health Insurance Option Accepted
Mikulski 201 Women's Health - no cost sharing for coverage of preventive services Accepted
Murkowski 203 Subsidies to individuals and families shall be available for any legally purchased coverage. Accepted
Murkowski 204 Provides for frontier extended stay clinic funding. Accepted
Murkowski 205 Blank - no amendment filed Accepted
Murkowski 206 Strikes extension of dependent coverage Accepted
Murray 200 Clarifies pay or play current business size threshold Accepted Passed
Reed 200 Grants for co-locating primary and specialty care in community-based mental health settings Accepted Passed
Roberts 202 Ensuring the safety of prescription drugs in America Accepted
Roberts 209 Preventing private health insurers from being prohibited from covering treatments (because of the Medicare payment policy tie-in language) Accepted
Roberts 210 Ensuring that all individuals have access (if they wish for such access) to “essential health benefits” (as defined by the Secretary under this title) regardless of their age, expected length of life, disability, etc… Accepted
Roberts 211 Requiring the Gateway to certify that participating plans do not have a pattern or practice of denying coverage to individuals based on their age, expected length of life, disability, etc…. Accepted
Sanders 202 Civil monetary penalties on employers who fail to satisfy the mandate Accepted

Sev
01-20-2011, 09:49 PM
You do realize amendments are proposed to make legislation fail.

bobroberts
01-21-2011, 04:41 AM
Funny thing is they passed this bill without anyone reading it and admitted to it.
You can't possibly think this is good for this country.
3000 page bills being passed that no one has read.
Even you have to admit that it that it doesn't pass the stink test.

LWW
01-21-2011, 05:09 AM
So they passed such amendments as stating that the HHS advisory committee be comprised of at 50% medical doctors ... and turned down amendments such as denying abortion mandates?

WOW! Just WOW!

LWW

Sev
01-21-2011, 07:43 AM
The entire thing is a legal debacle. There are so many cross links to existing law and regulations that deciphering it will be near to impossible.

Qtec
01-21-2011, 07:53 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> one committee accepted 65 GOP amendments and asked that they be passed by unanimous consent. (The GOP refused, and demanded all these amendments be debated even though the Dems accepted them all, as a way to slow-walk the process.)</div></div>

I remember that. The GOP objected to their own amendments. There is a video of it but I can't find it. I think Dodd was chairing it because I remember the surprise on his face.

As I remember it, Dodd wanted to accept the amendments and the GOP guy, obviously embarrased said 'I object'. Dodd, surprised said, "but these are your own amendments!'.
Then the guy says that some of his members have a problem with some of them and want further debate or something like that.
The guy was obviously ashamed of what was going on.

Its a classic. I had on my old PC but the HD took a dive.

Q

Sev
01-21-2011, 07:59 AM
They were running out the clock.

Qtec
01-21-2011, 08:19 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They were running out the clock. </div></div>

So they lied?

Q

Stretch
01-21-2011, 08:30 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They were running out the clock. </div></div>

So they lied?

Q </div></div>


right through their teeth. St.

Qtec
01-21-2011, 08:43 AM
I wish I had that link. The look on Dodd's face.

Can you imagine anything more absurd? Objecting to your own amendments!

Just by doing that you are showing your hand. there is no attempt at serious discussion. Their only aim was to bring discussion to a halt.

Isn't that anti-American? When people in Govt work AGAINST the will of the people?



Q

Sev
01-21-2011, 09:33 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They were running out the clock. </div></div>

So they lied?

Q </div></div>

Playing parliamentary procedure games.

Qtec
01-21-2011, 09:37 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Playing parliamentary procedure games. </div></div>

So when they said they were serious about having an input into HC reform, they lied. It was all a ruse.

Q

Sev
01-21-2011, 09:51 AM
He entire proceeding on the healthcare bill was all a ruse. Nothing more than a massive power grab in opposition to the will of the American people.
One side playing games to pass it.
The other side playing games to stop it.

Qtec
01-21-2011, 10:26 AM
You didn't answer the question, did they lie?
Q

Gayle in MD
01-21-2011, 10:42 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You didn't answer the question, did they lie?
Q </div></div>


LOL, of course, but won't admit to it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

The disgrace over the HC Reform, was all about the Republicans massive campaign of ridiculous deceit, and obstructionism.

Republicans always think that ONLY they, factor into things.
They come off with this ridiculous Bs about going against the wishes of the American People. LMAO! They think ONLY they, are the American People.
The HC Reform, is gaining support, not losing it.

Repubicans are going to pay a price for their bahavior. It's high time.

This is a good bill, not perfect, but a great start, and they are complaining over, and making up so many lies, annd obstructing their own accepted reform policies.

It's all just the usual Republican BS, with bravado.

They may get horrah from their nutty 28%, but there are all those independents, in the middle, and Republicans are in a trick bag, because they can't massage their crazies on the fringe, without turning off many of the more rational, in the middle.

Hence, they bow to people like Palin, Beck, Limpballs, O'Reiilly, the many opportunistic, hate mongerers of their radical right, but will in the end, lose many others..

G.

eg8r
01-21-2011, 12:05 PM
Actually he did answer the question. You asked if they lied and he responded saying they were playing games (in as many words he agreed with you). Then you made it a statement and then said it was a ruse and Sev again agreed with you and went one step further stating everything was a ruse. The left because they did not really care about healthcare reform they just wanted to solidify the power grab. One side played games to get it passed and the other side played games to try and stop it.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
01-21-2011, 12:35 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually he did answer the question. You asked if they lied and he responded saying they were playing games (in as many words he agreed with you). Then you made it a statement and then said it was a ruse and Sev again agreed with you and went one step further stating everything was a ruse. The left because they did not really care about healthcare reform they just wanted to solidify the power grab. One side played games to get it passed and the other side played games to try and stop it.

eg8r </div></div>

The one fact about the need for health care reform that is ignored is this: the growth in the cost of medical care is more than double the rate of inflation, the spending for it has already reached 20% of gdp or so, and these growth rates are unsustainable, and will cause much damage all throughout the economy until it finally kilss the economy altogether.

Essentially, the health care system is a for-profit cancer that is aggressively taking more and more of the economy, with profound waste and mediocre results in terms of each and every health index you can name. (We're generally at the bottom of the top 20 countries.)

If we do not reduce the growth rate, we will have no economy except for delivering ridiculously priced health care. The so-called 'entitlements' problem is almost exclusively on this medical side.

pooltchr
01-21-2011, 12:48 PM
When, in the history of our country, has government involvement ever actually reduced costs.
How is the Obamacare bill going to bring down costs?
And how much is it going to cost to set up and administer the programs involved?
At a time when we need to shrink government, how is adding a whole new layer going to help?
Does anyone really think that a bill that was basically authored by the insurance industry going to lower the cost of insurance&gt;

Yes, there are some areas as far as pre existing conditions that the bill addresses, but that could have been done without the massive legislative travesty that we have been handed.

Steve

Gayle in MD
01-21-2011, 12:59 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually he did answer the question. You asked if they lied and he responded saying they were playing games (in as many words he agreed with you). Then you made it a statement and then said it was a ruse and Sev again agreed with you and went one step further stating everything was a ruse. The left because they did not really care about healthcare reform they just wanted to solidify the power grab. One side played games to get it passed and the other side played games to try and stop it.

eg8r </div></div>

The one fact about the need for health care reform that is ignored is this: the growth in the cost of medical care is more than double the rate of inflation, the spending for it has already reached 20% of gdp or so, and these growth rates are unsustainable, and will cause much damage all throughout the economy until it finally kilss the economy altogether.

Essentially, the health care system is a for-profit cancer that is aggressively taking more and more of the economy, with profound waste and mediocre results in terms of each and every health index you can name. (We're generally at the bottom of the top 20 countries.)

If we do not reduce the growth rate, we will have no economy except for delivering ridiculously priced health care. The so-called 'entitlements' problem is almost exclusively on this medical side. </div></div>

Tap, Tap, Tap. And, what did the Republican majority do to even try to address the growing disaster of American health Care costs, Insurance costs, and inhumane practices of the health insurance industry?

Same thing that Bush did to prevent the 9/11 attak, NOTHING!

We needed single payer. Too bad the Republicans blocked any possibility of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPsJsbpPK14

eg8r
01-21-2011, 01:37 PM
Do you have any examples of Government programs (very large ones) that would give you a warm feeling inside when thinking about them taking on a project of this size? Not only being successful but doing it within the predeterminted parameters of budget and time?

eg8r

eg8r
01-21-2011, 01:38 PM
Thank goodness more greedy people do not read your posts. Single payer would be horrible for this country.

eg8r

Sev
01-21-2011, 05:50 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You didn't answer the question, did they lie?
Q </div></div>

The democrats lied about actually listening and considering the republican positions and ideas.

The republicans were and are still serious about the way health care should be and not be implemented.

As far as individual liars are concerned they abound everywhere on both sides of the aisle.
Now that the election has booted so many of them out perhaps there will be clarity.

Using parliamentary procedures to run out the clock though is not lying.

Sev
01-21-2011, 05:51 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You didn't answer the question, did they lie?
Q </div></div>


LOL, of course, but won't admit to it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

The disgrace over the HC Reform, was all about the Republicans massive campaign of ridiculous deceit, and obstructionism.

Republicans always think that ONLY they, factor into things.
They come off with this ridiculous Bs about going against the wishes of the American People. LMAO! They think ONLY they, are the American People.
The HC Reform, is gaining support, not losing it.

Repubicans are going to pay a price for their bahavior. It's high time.

This is a good bill, not perfect, but a great start, and they are complaining over, and making up so many lies, annd obstructing their own accepted reform policies.

It's all just the usual Republican BS, with bravado.

They may get horrah from their nutty 28%, but there are all those independents, in the middle, and Republicans are in a trick bag, because they can't massage their crazies on the fringe, without turning off many of the more rational, in the middle.

Hence, they bow to people like Palin, Beck, Limpballs, O'Reiilly, the many opportunistic, hate mongerers of their radical right, but will in the end, lose many others..

G. </div></div>

Look. More babbling.

Sev
01-21-2011, 05:55 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually he did answer the question. You asked if they lied and he responded saying they were playing games (in as many words he agreed with you). Then you made it a statement and then said it was a ruse and Sev again agreed with you and went one step further stating everything was a ruse. The left because they did not really care about healthcare reform they just wanted to solidify the power grab. One side played games to get it passed and the other side played games to try and stop it.

eg8r </div></div>

The one fact about the need for health care reform that is ignored is this: the growth in the cost of medical care is more than double the rate of inflation, the spending for it has already reached 20% of gdp or so, and these growth rates are unsustainable, and will cause much damage all throughout the economy until it finally kilss the economy altogether.

Essentially, the health care system is a for-profit cancer that is aggressively taking more and more of the economy, with profound waste and mediocre results in terms of each and every health index you can name. (We're generally at the bottom of the top 20 countries.)

If we do not reduce the growth rate, we will have no economy except for delivering ridiculously priced health care. The so-called 'entitlements' problem is almost exclusively on this medical side. </div></div>

Actually that number is skewed and not accurate. Dont fall into that trap. The way the data is collected and correlated is not accurate.

As far as the expense of health care goes it has less to do with profit then it does to do with the government, insurance and lawsuits.

Always remember healthcare is a service provided by people who train to provide that service both for profit and humanitarian purposes. You cant force people to work for nothing or force them to enter a profession that will not provide the lifestyle they are seeking.