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llotter
01-20-2011, 03:07 PM
Dictator Hu's visit brings to mind an important contradiction that needs some very serious mental ruminations. On the one hand, we have a communist country that is showing dramatic economic success and on the other, we have a “capitalist” country falling into an abyss of debt and pleading for the commies to bail them out from an economic cataclysm. The most inefficient and evil system out-performing the most efficient and morally good system demands an explanation.

LWW
01-20-2011, 04:42 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dictator Hu's visit brings to mind an important contradiction that needs some very serious mental ruminations. On the one hand, we have a communist country that is showing dramatic economic success and on the other, we have a “capitalist” country falling into an abyss of debt and pleading for the commies to bail them out from an economic cataclysm. The most inefficient and evil system out-performing the most efficient and morally good system demands an explanation. </div></div>

As a kid I would have never believed that I would live to see that be true ... or the Russians lecturing the POTUS over following the same mistaken path of the USSR.

LWW

llotter
01-20-2011, 06:03 PM
This is my thinking on the paradox:

We have long ago forsaken capitalism in favor of a system that is so bad and so inefficient that even communism begins to look good by comparison; a system that has brought the greatest and richest country in history to knees with barely a notice; a system that transformed the freest, most independent society on earth into one where the citizens are dependent on the central planners for everything more difficult than sleeping. Of course, even that activity has to be supervised by the central planners to not remove the tag under penalty of law. In fact, there are a myriad of laws and rules and regulation and taxes and incentives or penalties that cover virtually every aspect of the market, the home, the workplace and your entire life to ensure that that every possible risk will be minimized or eliminated.

Capitalism is the name for the system that spontaneously happens when people are free to buy and sell in the marketplace without force or undo influence from those outside of the transactions. Or as Wiki defines it, “an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for a private profit; decisions regarding supply, demand, price, distribution, and investments are made by private actors in the free market; profit is distributed to owners who choose to invest in businesses, and wages are paid to workers employed by businesses and companies.” Capitalism is the economic system only of a “free society” not the system of one where everyone’s position in life is guided and manipulated by central planners.

What we have developed here over the last many decades, is what might be called a one-sided capitalism, favoring what is being sold as ‘freedom’ but eschewing the essential responsibility. Without individual responsibility however, there can be no freedom for they are the two sides of the same coin. If the individual is not responsible for himself and his family, then others must be, and others must decide, and all the important and risk laden consequences must be born by others and in this case, the “other” is the State. In other words, we have developed community responsibility while attempting to maintain personal freedom, a logical impossibility. We have been sold on the benefits of communism without the Gulag but this truly represents the worst of both worlds and at a cost that has brought ruin to the Last, Best Hope of Mankind.

Sev
01-20-2011, 07:44 PM
Blame it on the continual brainwashing of America by liberal progressives.

Soflasnapper
01-20-2011, 08:04 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Blame it on the continual brainwashing of America by liberal progressives. </div></div>

Almost all of our national debt comes from wars, preparing for wars, borrowing to pay for wars, paying for veterans' care for large numbers of military personnel whether in war or not, etc. I do not think you'll find liberal progressives advocating these policies, to the degree they've been used. (Well, Wilson I suppose.)

Other than that, the clear and present cause of our economic meltdown is the banksters (banking gangsters), self-styled masters of the universe, who fancifully grew up a 1,000 trillion (equals a quadrillion) dollar house of cards from a far tinier base of actual capital goods (i.e., housing values), and then blew the thing up themselves by fraud while betting the other way.

We still don't know the depth of their losses, because they haven't been forced to mark to market these underlying valuations (only because they forced the accounting bodies to change their prior standards and rules). But the total losses are thought to amount to something like $50 trillion, which is several times more than the world's entire annual gdp equivalent.

Liberal progressives? Ah, no.

Soflasnapper
01-20-2011, 08:08 PM
"Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes … known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few.… No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."

— James Madison, Political Observations, 1795

Those founding fathers were sure smart, huh?

Sev
01-20-2011, 09:45 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Blame it on the continual brainwashing of America by liberal progressives. </div></div>

Almost all of our national debt comes from wars, preparing for wars, borrowing to pay for wars, paying for veterans' care for large numbers of military personnel whether in war or not, etc. I do not think you'll find liberal progressives advocating these policies, to the degree they've been used. (Well, Wilson I suppose.)

Other than that, the clear and present cause of our economic meltdown is the banksters (banking gangsters), self-styled masters of the universe, who fancifully grew up a 1,000 trillion (equals a quadrillion) dollar house of cards from a far tinier base of actual capital goods (i.e., housing values), and then blew the thing up themselves by fraud while betting the other way.

We still don't know the depth of their losses, because they haven't been forced to mark to market these underlying valuations (only because they forced the accounting bodies to change their prior standards and rules). But the total losses are thought to amount to something like $50 trillion, which is several times more than the world's entire annual gdp equivalent.

Liberal progressives? Ah, no. </div></div>

You leave much out of the equation. The productivity and profitability of a nation is determined by the ingenuity, determination and productivity of its population.
The direction a population and nation travels is determined by both the values taught in the home and its educational system.
When both those values and education turn counter to productivity and success and towards dependency of state the revenues needed by the state will begin to fall heaviest on the most productive. However a threshold is eventually reach where the most successful and most productive can no longer support those dependent on the state and a collapse is inevitable.

The consequences of the application of good intentions on a nation vs what is actually good for it can lead to its demise.