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Qtec
02-21-2011, 06:47 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Republicans say that public-sector employees have become a privileged class that overburdened taxpayers," write Karen Tumulty and Brady Dennis. The question, of course, is whether it's true. Consider this analysis the Economic Policy Institute conducted comparing total compensation -- that is to say, wages and health-care benefits and pensions -- among public and private workers in Wisconsin. To get an apples-to-apples comparison, the study's author controlled for experience, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, citizenship and disability, and then sorted the results by education. Here's what he got:

</div></div>

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/assets_c/2011/02/wisconsinpay-thumb-454x290-35102.jpg


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you prefer it in non-graph form: "Wisconsin public-sector workers face an annual compensation penalty of 11%. Adjusting for the slightly fewer hours worked per week on average, these public workers still face a compensation penalty of 5% for choosing to work in the public sector."

The deal that unions, state government and -- by extension -- state residents have made to defer the compensation of public employees was a bad deal -- but it was a bad deal for the public employees, not for the state government. State and local governments were able to hire better workers now by promising higher pay later. They essentially hired on an installment plan. And now they might not follow through on it. The ones who got played here are the public employees, not the residents of the various states. The residents of the various states, when all is said and done, will probably have gotten the work at a steep discount. They'll force a renegotiation of the contracts and blame overprivileged public employees for resisting shared sacrifice.

Which gets to the heart of what this is: <span style='font-size: 17pt'>A form of default.</span> </div></div>


link (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2011/02/are_wisconsins_state_and_local.html)


Q

Gayle in MD
02-21-2011, 10:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Republicans say that public-sector employees have become a privileged class that overburdened taxpayers," write Karen Tumulty and Brady Dennis. The question, of course, is whether it's true. Consider this analysis the Economic Policy Institute conducted comparing total compensation -- that is to say, wages and health-care benefits and pensions -- among public and private workers in Wisconsin. To get an apples-to-apples comparison, the study's author controlled for experience, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, citizenship and disability, and then sorted the results by education. Here's what he got:

</div></div>

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/assets_c/2011/02/wisconsinpay-thumb-454x290-35102.jpg


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you prefer it in non-graph form: "Wisconsin public-sector workers face an annual compensation penalty of 11%. Adjusting for the slightly fewer hours worked per week on average, these public workers still face a compensation penalty of 5% for choosing to work in the public sector."

The deal that unions, state government and -- by extension -- state residents have made to defer the compensation of public employees was a bad deal -- but it was a bad deal for the public employees, not for the state government. State and local governments were able to hire better workers now by promising higher pay later. They essentially hired on an installment plan. And now they might not follow through on it. The ones who got played here are the public employees, not the residents of the various states. The residents of the various states, when all is said and done, will probably have gotten the work at a steep discount. They'll force a renegotiation of the contracts and blame overprivileged public employees for resisting shared sacrifice.

Which gets to the heart of what this is: <span style='font-size: 17pt'>A form of default.</span> </div></div>


link (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2011/02/are_wisconsins_state_and_local.html)


Q </div></div>

Good post, Q.

These Republican Lies have been exposed as lies, over and over, by both goverment and private sources...


Interesting that these supposed economic experts always elect presidents who create a bad economy, grow the government, ruin opportunities for the Middle class, and then prove that they don't even understand the oldest of economic principles, when it comes to our teachers, "You get what you pay for."


The more they demonaize our teachers, the more our educational system will suffer.

It is a FACT, that the areas with the strongest Teacher Unions, have the very best educational results among our students.

G.

Soflasnapper
02-21-2011, 12:09 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> [I]naccurate comparisons of national and Wisconsin public employee compensation with private sector compensation
are circulating in Wisconsin. These faulty comparisons, showing that public employees in Wisconsin are dramatically
overpaid, seem to support legislative efforts to increase benefit contributions by public employees. These increased
benefit contributions would subject them to a pay cut greater than 10% and eliminate their collective bargaining rights.

But when we compare apples to apples, we find that Wisconsin public employees earn 4.8% less in total compensation
than comparable private sector workers. The comparisons—controlling for education, experience, hours of
work, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, citizenship, and disability—demonstrate that full-time state and
local public employees earn lower wages and receive less in total compensation (including all benefits) than comparable
private sector employees.

Why does it appear otherwise? Both nationally and within Wisconsin, public sector workers are significantly more
educated than their private sector counterparts. Nationally, 54% of full-time state and local public sector workers hold
at least a four-year college degree, compared with 35% of full-time private sector workers. In Wisconsin, the difference
is even greater: 59% of full-time Wisconsin public sector workers hold at least a four-year college degree, compared with
30% of full-time private sector workers.</div></div>

Link to EPI study here (http://www.epi.org/page/-/old/policy/EPI_PolicyMemorandum_173.pdf)

eg8r
02-21-2011, 12:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But when we compare apples to apples, we find that Wisconsin public employees earn 4.8% less in total compensation
than comparable private sector workers. </div></div>Apples to oranges is the only comparison you can make between public and private jobs. One is responsible to a group of shareholders the other has zero responsiblity. One gets buget cuts every single year and still outperforms the previous year, earning their shareholders better returns, the other adds more employees to do the same work and cries for more and more money while the quality of their work continues to go downhill.

eg8r

LWW
02-21-2011, 05:12 PM
Yes.

Next ridiculous question?

LWW

JohnnyD
02-21-2011, 07:04 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes.

Next ridiculous question?

LWW </div></div> Well put professor.Excellent post.

Sev
02-21-2011, 09:43 PM
The less paid to public employee's the fewer there will be in the government.

Thats a positive if you ask me.

Qtec
02-22-2011, 02:42 AM
Should the child welfare service make a profit?

How about the fire dept? The Police dept?

Apples and oranges is right.


Q....

Reality.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Oklahoma state workers rally at Capitol objecting to planned pension changes

Oklahoma's state employees say they are concerned about changes to their pension system and efforts to privatize state jobs. About 200 attended a Presidents Day rally to urge legislators to use caution when considering changes.

BY MICHAEL MCNUTT mmcnutt@opubco.com Oklahoman Comment on this article 1
Published: February 22, 2011

About 200 state employees used their day off Monday to urge lawmakers to protect their pension benefits and develop a compensation scale they said <span style='font-size: 14pt'>would bring them up to par with workers hired to do similar tasks by private businesses.</span>

Read more: http://newsok.com/oklahoma-state-workers...1#ixzz1EfvcWhGL (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-state-workers-rally-at-capitol-objecting-to-planned-pension-changes/article/3542821#ixzz1EfvcWhGL)
</div></div>

LWW
02-22-2011, 03:11 AM
You really have no clue what a "PROFIT" actually is!

LWW

Qtec
02-22-2011, 04:40 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You really have no clue what a "PROFIT" actually is!

LWW </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Should the child welfare service make a profit? </div></div>

Yes or No.

Q

LWW
02-22-2011, 07:12 AM
No gubmint agency is capable of making a profit, you don't even know what the word means, and your question is therefore moot.

Now ... this is where you claim the thread isn't about whether of not state employees are overpaid.

Next out of control spin?

LWW

Qtec
02-22-2011, 07:21 AM
STILL can't answer a simple question.

You should be on Fox. They would love you.

Q

Qtec
02-22-2011, 07:23 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now ... this is where you claim the thread isn't about whether of not state employees are overpaid.
</div></div>

I gave you facts. All you gave me was your stupid dubma$$ ignorant opinion, backed up with NO FACTS whatsoever. What a surprise.

Next question.

Q

pooltchr
02-22-2011, 07:52 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Should the child welfare service make a profit?

How about the fire dept? The Police dept?

</div></div>

If an organization is publically funded, not only should they not make profit, but there is no profit to be made. Any income generated that does not cover operational costs should just be removed from the amount being funded by the taxpayers.

Police Departments are funded by tax dollars. Let's say that XXPD gets $2million to pay to run the department. Now, let's say that XXPD collects $100K from parking and speeding tickets. Now, rather than 2M, they only need 1.9M. That's not profit...that's savings to the taxpayers.

Now, if whatever department were to be privatized, there would be incentive for the operators to make it as efficient as possible, since the more efficiently they operate, the more "profit" they can make. Profit is the motivating factor for all private enterprises. There really isn't any motivator for government agencies to be efficient, since there is no profit to be made. So, by nature, private agencies would generally be more efficient than government agencies.

Steve

Stretch
02-22-2011, 08:27 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Should the child welfare service make a profit?

How about the fire dept? The Police dept?

</div></div>

If an organization is publically funded, not only should they not make profit, but there is no profit to be made. Any income generated that does not cover operational costs should just be removed from the amount being funded by the taxpayers.

Police Departments are funded by tax dollars. Let's say that XXPD gets $2million to pay to run the department. Now, let's say that XXPD collects $100K from parking and speeding tickets. Now, rather than 2M, they only need 1.9M. That's not profit...that's savings to the taxpayers.

Now, if whatever department were to be privatized, there would be incentive for the operators to make it as efficient as possible, since the more efficiently they operate, the more "profit" they can make. Profit is the motivating factor for all private enterprises. There really isn't any motivator for government agencies to be efficient, since there is no profit to be made. So, by nature, private agencies would generally be more efficient than government agencies.

Steve </div></div>

And we all know that private agencies like Insurance Companies and Pharmaceutical Companies have your best interests at heart. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif &lt;&lt;waiting for the next Reich-wings health care plan to be "Marry a Canadian". That would be good for buisness. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Gayle in MD
02-22-2011, 08:30 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You really have no clue what a "PROFIT" actually is!

LWW </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Should the child welfare service make a profit? </div></div>

Yes or No.

Q </div></div>

We've all seen how efficient the Iraq War, Private Contractors were....

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

pooltchr
02-22-2011, 10:00 AM
Where is it written that an insurance company, or any business for that matter, is supposed to put the welfare of their customers ahead of the profitability of the company?

A business exists to make profits. If they don't provide a needed service at a price the customer perceives to be the best value, they won't have customers and won't make profits.

When the government steps in and tells the customers who they can do business with, and who they can't, they restrict competition and encourage higher prices.

Competition drives prices down. Government restrictions drive prices up.

Any questions?

Steve

Gayle in MD
02-22-2011, 10:18 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Should the child welfare service make a profit?

How about the fire dept? The Police dept?

</div></div>

If an organization is publically funded, not only should they not make profit, but there is no profit to be made. Any income generated that does not cover operational costs should just be removed from the amount being funded by the taxpayers.

Police Departments are funded by tax dollars. Let's say that XXPD gets $2million to pay to run the department. Now, let's say that XXPD collects $100K from parking and speeding tickets. Now, rather than 2M, they only need 1.9M. That's not profit...that's savings to the taxpayers.

Now, if whatever department were to be privatized, there would be incentive for the operators to make it as efficient as possible, since the more efficiently they operate, the more "profit" they can make. Profit is the motivating factor for all private enterprises. There really isn't any motivator for government agencies to be efficient, since there is no profit to be made. So, by nature, private agencies would generally be more efficient than government agencies.

Steve </div></div>

And we all know that private agencies like Insurance Companies and Pharmaceutical Companies have your best interests at heart. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif &lt;&lt;waiting for the next Reich-wings health care plan to be "Marry a Canadian". That would be good for buisness. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

</div></div>


The right loves it when any corporations can carve out regional monoloplies, and gouge the hell out of the American Public, even when it doesn't permit decent Health Care, and Healh Insurance, for people who pay for premiums, and then get dropped, and financially destroyed.

If they don't give a good S**T about corporations polluting the air, the rivers and streams, our drinking water, and food, why would they care about causing their own families to suffer and die with cancer, babies being born deformed, and with increasing learning disabilities, caused by the polllutants, and the spoils, the poor ill people being dumped by Health Care providers, an oxymoron in and of itself, are not important to the RW Zealots, as long as the corporate fascist pigs, are getting their record breaking profits, and no one raises their taxes!

And then there is the possibility of the big bonus, if they vote REp[ublican, of being able to assuage their hatred and misogeny, by controlling women's bodies, and preseving their homophobia, by getting the repubs back in there to make killing Gays and lesbians, legal, estroying the Hate Crime Legislation, to protect them from the RW Zealots...and killing abortion doctors, who risk their lives, to put suffering fetuses out of their misery, or save women's lives, who will die if the deliver...all of the is easily ignored, it doesn't serve their hatred......

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

The party of hate, is what they are. Science is their enemy. It goes against everything they want to ignore.

Reminds one of Bush, fighting the war in Iraq, while filling up the pockets of the dictators over there, who were financing the terrorists who attacked us, with their oil money they made off the U.S.!


/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

pooltchr
02-22-2011, 10:24 AM
I guess that's why the Reps wanted to open up healthcare insurance to be purchased across state lines. And why the Dems didn't want to see that in the bill.

You need to look a little closer at that, before you talk about allowing companies to carve out "regional monopolies".

Steve

Stretch
02-22-2011, 10:36 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You really have no clue what a "PROFIT" actually is!

LWW </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Should the child welfare service make a profit? </div></div>

Yes or No.

Q </div></div>

Oh but the 9 billion dollars missing that was handed over to help rebuild Iraq is no biggy. Funny how little things like billions of dollars can so easily be swept under the carpet. St.

We've all seen how efficient the Iraq War, Private Contractors were....

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif </div></div>

Gayle in MD
02-22-2011, 10:50 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You really have no clue what a "PROFIT" actually is!

LWW </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Should the child welfare service make a profit? </div></div>

Yes or No.

Q </div></div>

Oh but the 9 billion dollars missing that was handed over to help rebuild Iraq is no biggy. Funny how little things like billions of dollars can so easily be swept under the carpet. St.

We've all seen how efficient the Iraq War, Private Contractors were....

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif </div></div> </div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Oh but the 9 billion dollars missing that was handed over to help rebuild Iraq is no biggy. Funny how little things like billions of dollars can so easily be swept under the carpet. St.

</div></div>

<span style="color: #990000"> <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Yep, they have no prooblem ignoring who put us into the colossal mess we ended up in in late 08.

The defended the chimp's every move, then in weeks of Obama's swearing in, they were bitching about the debts, LMAO!

That was after they wrote, "The deficits don't matter!" while Bush was thrwoing our money down the drain, and now, they put all of Bush's debt, on this presidents ledger!

No intellectual honesty about these nutjobs, at all.

G.</span> </span>

pooltchr
02-22-2011, 05:01 PM
Nobody is holding Obama for what Bush left him....it's how he has managed to make it so much worse in such a short time that is the issue.

Steve

Sev
02-22-2011, 05:44 PM
News flash.

Only 34% of Wisconsin 8 graders are proficient in reading!!

And you ask of the teachers are over paid Q???

Based on that performance rate they should be fired.

The unions and the teacher have brought failure to their students.

Qtec
02-23-2011, 01:28 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If an organization is publically funded, not only should they not make profit, but there is no profit to be made. </div></div>

ie some things cost money.

Q

LWW
02-23-2011, 03:52 AM
And thanks for proving you have no clue what a profit actually is.

LWW

Qtec
02-23-2011, 04:16 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And thanks for proving you have no clue what a profit actually is.

LWW </div></div>

What is wrong with you?

What does profit have to do with public services?

Answer...NOTHING.


Q.....some things cost money.

LWW
02-23-2011, 04:43 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You really have no clue what a "PROFIT" actually is!

LWW </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Should the child welfare service make a profit? </div></div>

Yes or No.

Q </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And thanks for proving you have no clue what a profit actually is.

LWW </div></div>

What is wrong with you?

What does profit have to do with public services?

Answer...NOTHING.


Q.....some things cost money.

</div></div>

You are a piece of work brother.

LWW

Sev
02-23-2011, 08:24 AM
HAHHAHAAA!!!

eg8r
02-23-2011, 01:29 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Should the child welfare service make a profit?

How about the fire dept? The Police dept?

Apples and oranges is right.
</div></div>I know I am right. Since the police and fire departments are not responsible to anyone they tend to have increased waste in the budget.

eg8r