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LWW
02-28-2011, 06:45 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Miami Beach was certainly a fitting choice as the site for this month's reunion of passengers from the ill-fated SS St. Louis, the ship of Jewish refugees that sailed from Nazi Germany in May 1939. As children, they gazed at the lights of Miami as the St. Louis hovered off the Florida coast, hoping desperately for permission to land.

In the 70 years since that tragic voyage, the story of the St. Louis has been told and retold, taught and studied, researched and pondered. It has been to Hollywood, in the 1976 film "Voyage of the Damned," starring Faye Dunaway. It was the subject of a U.S. Senate resolution expressing remorse over what happened. It was featured in a full-page political cartoon in the Washington Post (by Art Spiegelman of "Maus" fame and this author). It was the focus of a project by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum to trace the fate of each of the more than 900 passengers.

And it continues to fascinate historians - including an Israeli scholar who has uncovered a new document that sheds light on President Franklin Roosevelt's attitude toward the St. Louis. ...

"My grandfather was convinced that since four of his sons had given their lives for Germany in World War I, the Nazis would never persecute him," Hans explains. "In fact, my grandparents had gone to Palestine in 1935, but then returned to Germany, to the shock and amazement of their friends."

Hans's grandparents would eventually perish in the Theresienstadt concentration camp.

The two-week voyage from Hamburg to Havana proceeded without incident. "I was young, I was happy that we were getting away from Nazi Germany, I certainly couldn't appreciate how tenuous our position was," Hans says.

"When we reached Havana, all of our suitcases were brought up to the deck as we got ready to disembark. It was a terrible shock to be standing there by the rail, our suitcases in hand, and told we could not get off the ship."

All but thirty of the passengers held documents granting them entry to Cuba as tourists, which they had purchased in Germany, at the astronomical sum of $500 each, from an unscrupulous Cuban government official. Cuba's authorities, furious at the backroom profiteering and sensitive to domestic anti-Semitism, refused to recognize the validity of the entry documents. ...

When the Cuban government refused to budge, the "saddest ship afloat," as The New York Times called it, sailed north and hovered off the coast of Florida, hoping that the American president, who was known as a humanitarian and a champion of "the little guy" would take pity on them.

For three days, the refugees gazed longingly at the lights of Miami. <span style='font-size: 11pt'>The passengers sent a telegram to the White House, pleading for mercy and emphasizing that "more than 400 [of the refugees] are women and children."</span>

The reply came in the form of a Coast Guard cutter, dispatched to the scene to make sure the St. Louis did not approach America's shore.

'Filthy, Un-American, and Dangerous' ...

Keeping Jews out was one of the motives for the new system. The original version of the quota bill was submitted to Congress with a report by the chief of the United States Consular Service characterizing would-be Jewish immigrants from Poland as "filthy, un-American, and often dangerous in their habits . . . lacking any conception of patriotism or national spirit." ...

The annual quota for Germany and Austria was 27,370. For Poland, it was just 6,542. Even those meager quota allotments were almost always under-filled, as zealous consular officials erected bureaucratic obstacles to immigration - what Prof. David S. Wyman called "paper walls."

In 1933, Hitler's first year in power, the German quota was only 5.3 percent filled (1,324 immigrants). It was 13.7 percent filled in 1934, 20.2 percent in 1935, 24.3 percent in 1936, 42.1 percent in 1937, and 65.3 percent in 1938. The only year between 1933 and 1945 that the German quota was fully filled was 1939.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>This meant that between 1933 and 1939, there were 106,484 unused quota places for German citizens.</span>

Later, during the period of the Nazi genocide, from late 1941 until early 1945, only ten percent of the quotas from Axis-controlled European countries were used. That means almost 190,000 quota places were unused.

The question of unused quota places is important because <span style='font-size: 11pt'>when American Jewish refugee advocates privately asked the Roosevelt administration, in the 1930s, to permit more immigration, they were told nothing could be done because the administration could not persuade Congress to liberalize the immigration laws.</span> ...

But in fact, many lives could have been saved without changing a single law or fighting Congress. All FDR had to do was quietly instruct the State Department to admit as many refugees as the law allowed. That alone would have saved more than 100,000 German Jews before World War II - and nearly 200,000 more during the Holocaust years.

'Roosevelt Was Apathetic'

FDR's silence with regard to the St. Louis has long intrigued historians. On the one hand, Roosevelt is well known for his tendency to refrain from committing his private thoughts to writing. On the other hand, it is remarkable that an episode such as the controversy over the St. Louis, which made the front page of America's major newspapers for nearly a week, and which raised important questions about U.S. policies, did not elicit any comment from the president. ...

Then Razovsky wrote: "We again at that time tried to get permission from Secretary of State Hull to take them but our State Dept. was unsympathetic and Franklin Delano was apathetic, although Eleanor did everything in her power to change their attitude."

Razovsky's assessment of Hull's lack of sympathy, FDR's apathy, and the First Lady's unsuccessful intervention seems to have been based on her direct contacts with official Washington. During the 1930s and 1940s, Razovsky met repeatedly with senior U.S. officials, including cabinet members, to lobby for the rescue of Jewish refugees. She was one of the best-positioned eyewitnesses to the response of the Roosevelt administration to the plight of the Jews.

Her memoir provides additional first-person evidence of the president's decision to turn a blind eye to a humanitarian crisis on America's very doorstep.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>What could FDR have done to aid the Jews on the St. Louis? He could have issued an executive order placing the refugees in a temporary detention center until it was safe for them to return to Germany. He could have put meaningful pressure on the British to let the passengers go to Mandatory Palestine. Or he could have leaned on America's Latin American allies to take in the refugees.

Instead, he was, as Razovsky put it, "apathetic." He turned away, in effect forcing the St. Louis to return to Europe.</span> <span style='font-size: 17pt'>The same apathy would characterize Roosevelt's response to the Nazi mass murder of the Jews in the years to follow.</span>

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>"Roosevelt was a very shrewd and conniving politician," Hans Fisher recalls. "He did what was politically useful for him."</span>

Havens - But Not For Long

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>With America's doors closed, the St. Louis slowly sailed back towards Europe. A Nazi newspaper, Der Weltkampf, gloated: "We are saying openly that we do not want the Jews, while the democracies keep on claiming that they are willing to receive them - then leave them out in the cold."</span> ...

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>But many of the others were not so fortunate. In the spring of 1940, the Germans invaded France, Holland, and Belgium. Nearly half of the St. Louis refugees who were admitted to those countries were murdered in Nazi death camps.</span>

Dr. Rafael Medoff is director of The David S. Wyman Institute for Holocaust Studies (www.WymanInstitute.org). </div></div>

DISGUSTING COWARDICE! (http://www.jewishpress.com/pageroute.do/41907/)

In the rearview mirror, FDR:

- Jailed over 100,000 US citizens for no crime other than their race.

- Suspended the first amendment.

- Instituted a fascist economy.

- Threatened to stack the SCOTUS with additional justices sympathetic to his fascist ideology.

- Ordered crops burned in the field and livestock slaughtered to prop up prices for big campaign contributors, even though starvation in America was widespread.

- Nominated a Klansman to the SCOTUS.

- Had an administration that was riddled with Soviet agents.

And yet he is a hero to the far left.

LWW

LWW
02-28-2011, 10:38 AM
Nary a leftist will denounce this accessory to genocide?

LWW &lt;---Unsurprised.

Soflasnapper
02-28-2011, 01:43 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nary a leftist will denounce this accessory to genocide?

LWW &lt;---Unsurprised. </div></div>

Typical inflammatory BS once again.

FDR is an AMERICAN icon, not a 'far left icon,' or else he wouldn't have been Ronald Reagan's favorite president.

To admit these persons would have been AGAINST THE LAW, thus requiring FDR to circumvent the law (and we've heard how against such presidential actions contrary to the law you claim to be). They were the victims then of the nativist, anti-immigrant sentiments we continue to see today. If FDR's actions here appeased anyone, it was a) US law, and b) an intolerant population who had put their prejudices against all immigrants and especially Jewish immigrants into said law. In no way can this be correctly characterized as appeasing NAZIS, still less, as an accessory to genocide. These are grotesquely false charges you casually throw around, to your shame and discredit.

Despite the law preventing allowing them entry, FDR's senior cabinet secretaries were mobilized to work all the potential safe harbor countries, and they succeeded in getting the Jewish passengers to countries not under control of the Nazis, where they were no less safe than anyone else in Europe. The Nazi invasions were still a year away from that time.

Contrary to the source you've cited, approx. 70% of these passengers survived through to the end of the war.

From Wiki's article on the St. Louis:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> By using the survival rates for Jews in various countries, Thomas and Morgan-Witts, the authors of Voyage of the Damned, estimated that 180 of the St. Louis refugees in France, 152 of those in Belgium, and 60 of those in the Netherlands, survived the Holocaust. Adding to these the passengers who disembarked in England, of the original 936 refugees (one man died during the voyage), roughly 709 survived and 227 were slain.[14][15]

Later research by Scott Miller and Sarah Ogilvie of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum gave a more precise, higher total of 254 deaths:

"Of the 620 St. Louis passengers who returned to continental Europe, we determined that eighty-seven were able to emigrate before Germany invaded western Europe on May 10, 1940. Two hundred fifty-four passengers in Belgium, France, and the Netherlands after that date died during the Holocaust. Most of these people were murdered in the killing centers of Auschwitz and Sobibór; the rest died in internment camps, in hiding or attempting to evade the Nazis. Three hundred sixty-five of the 620 passengers who returned to continental Europe survived the war."[16]
</div></div>

Perhaps your source meant to only discuss the death rate of those who went to continental Europe, by omitting the number who were disembarked to England. If so, that is something known as a lie.

Sev
02-28-2011, 02:00 PM
Roosevelt could have let them into the country.

He had no problem interning tens of thousands of japanese and italian citizens.

The shine is off FDR. He was severely flawed as time has shown.

Soflasnapper
02-28-2011, 02:36 PM
Roosevelt could have let them into the country.


Not without circumventing the existing law, he couldn't.

He had no problem interning tens of thousands of japanese and italian citizens.

He didn't go GET them, bring them here, and THEN intern them.

The shine is off FDR. He was severely flawed as time has shown.

So are all great leaders, including God's chosen prophets and kings, according to the Bible. Moses, whose sin caused God to never let him enter the Promised Land. David, whose sin caused God to prevent him from building the temple. Solomon, who profaned the temple by worshiping and sacrificing to the gods of his lady friends in the Holy of Holies.

Find me any supposedly perfect person, and you can bet they are not leading any great country.

Sev
02-28-2011, 03:01 PM
That would be me. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

LWW
02-28-2011, 06:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Roosevelt could have let them into the country.


Not without circumventing the existing law, he couldn't.

He had no problem interning tens of thousands of japanese and italian citizens.

He didn't go GET them, bring them here, and THEN intern them.

The shine is off FDR. He was severely flawed as time has shown.

So are all great leaders, including God's chosen prophets and kings, according to the Bible. Moses, whose sin caused God to never let him enter the Promised Land. David, whose sin caused God to prevent him from building the temple. Solomon, who profaned the temple by worshiping and sacrificing to the gods of his lady friends in the Holy of Holies.

Find me any supposedly perfect person, and you can bet they are not leading any great country. </div></div>

Did you even read the story?

We both know you either didn't, or you are again suffering from Reality Deficit Disorder.

FDR could have easily allowed 100,000 in ... the ship held hundreds.

Next excuse for a common criminal please?

LWW

Soflasnapper
02-28-2011, 08:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That would be me. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>

Country you lead, please? LOL

Soflasnapper
02-28-2011, 08:35 PM
He could have only done it against the anti-immigration will of the people expressed through a law the Congress passed and the president signed some 10 years earlier.

Do you have any idea how anti-Semitic America was at the time? Heck, Roman Catholics were despised and feared.

Sometime later, when HST was considering integrating blacks into the armed services, the military conducted surveys of racial and ethnic attitudes among the enlisted men and officers, separately.

At that later date, AFTER the Holocaust, the enlisted men were asked to agree or disagree with the following statement: 'there is nothing good about a Jew.' Over 70% of the enlisted men AGREED with that statement, and only slightly less of the officer corps.

Among the ways those who hated FDR attacked him was to call him 'Roosenveldt,' and claim he was of Jewish descent. So SURE, everybody would have been fine with his pushing that the MAXIMUM number of immigrants from Germany be allowed in, and that all should be Jews. Not.

Even this pretended way he could have done this required those actions be taken well in advance of this one case, via psychic clairvoyance, I guess that it would happen. Only the shakedown by the Cubans at the last moment prevented the solution the Jews themselves had arranged, which was safe passage to Cuba. By that time, there was no ability to go back in time and get these people registered into the proper immigration process, so they'd have to be let in exceptionally to the legal standards at that late date.

You act as if the later horrors of the war were already known at that time, when the war had mainly not yet broken out yet. It is silly to demand the actors of that day behave as you might judge best now, with the benefit of hindsight.

The 'final solution' was said to be created at the Wannsee Conference, and that was also years away, before which there was not a genocidal plan in motion.

So continue your lying that any of this was appeasing the Nazis, or being an accessory to genocide, if you must. But it doesn't pass the rudimentary knowledge of what those terms mean.

Sev
02-28-2011, 09:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That would be me. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>

Country you lead, please? LOL </div></div>

You may want to re read your original sentence.

I am a perfect person and am not leading a country.
I am spectacular in my perfectness. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

LWW
03-01-2011, 05:11 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He could have only done it against the anti-immigration will of the people expressed through a law the Congress passed and the president signed some 10 years earlier.</div></div>

Why do you so desperately cling to mythology?

LWW

Soflasnapper
03-02-2011, 11:53 AM
Evidently, those people MIGHT have been able to get in the regular line under the quota allowed for immigration from that country. Had all that been done some time before this incident.

They did not do that, so to allow it at that 11th hour would have been to bumrush the immigration process, push these people to the front of a line they hadn't even queued up to, void all the processes entailed in the law, and provide a moral hazard example to all such wannabe immigrants, that heck NO you don't have to get in line and follow the process-- just show up and they'll give you a special pass where none of that was necessary.

The man you allege was a Nazi appeaser and an accessory to genocide directed his senior cabinet members to get these people to safety. They were delivered safely to non-combatant countries that remained non-combatant countries for a year or more.

Then this alleged appeaser took actions up to and including total war (in the saturation bombing raids) which utterly destroyed the Nazi regime.

I 'cling to mythology' in your view, because I show how false are your charges and name-calling in this case? Including your citation of the false 50% death rate? Who has cited myths and lies in this thread?

LWW
03-02-2011, 05:16 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH </div></div>

Then how does the nation allow in so many Mexicans ... how did we allow in the refugees from Cuber when Castro emptied the prisons and idiot boy Jimmuh Cahtuh embraced them with open arms?

LWW

Soflasnapper
03-03-2011, 06:01 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH </div></div>

Then how does the nation allow in so many Mexicans ... how did we allow in the refugees from Cuber when Castro emptied the prisons and idiot boy Jimmuh Cahtuh embraced them with open arms?

LWW </div></div>

The state of immigration law, and refugee law, in 1939, is not comparable to what obtained there during the Carter years, or more recent times. Even you may be aware that such laws have changed over the years.

As most people know, the situation with Cuba is entirely unique, stemming from our animus to Castro and our solidarity with the Cubans under his dictatorial regime (not to mention the phenomenal political power of the Cuban expatriate community centered in Miami).

LWW
03-04-2011, 06:08 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH </div></div>

Then how does the nation allow in so many Mexicans ... how did we allow in the refugees from Cuber when Castro emptied the prisons and idiot boy Jimmuh Cahtuh embraced them with open arms?

LWW </div></div>

The state of immigration law, and refugee law, in 1939, is not comparable to what obtained there during the Carter years, or more recent times. Even you may be aware that such laws have changed over the years.

As most people know, the situation with Cuba is entirely unique, stemming from our animus to Castro and our solidarity with the Cubans under his dictatorial regime (not to mention the phenomenal political power of the Cuban expatriate community centered in Miami). </div></div>

And, again, your words have no relevance to the fact that FDR was a Nazi appeaser and raging racist.

Next myth please?

LWW