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Qtec
03-01-2011, 04:23 AM
Why unions?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MADISON, Wis. -- Kathy Truesdel has no love for Scott Walker.

"He kiboshed the high-speed rail. It could have put me to work," she said. "That's my biggest gripe."

Walker, the new Republican governor of Wisconsin, nixed the Milwaukee-to-Madison project started under his predecessor, Jim Doyle (D), which had $810 million behind it from the 2009 stimulus bill. Walker cited the costs of continuing the project once the federal funds ran out, even though the project's proponents said it would have supported 5,500 construction jobs in Wisconsin for the next three years.

Truesdel, a laid-off forklift driver, thought some of that employment might have come her way. She told HuffPost she's been jobless for two years after working steadily for the previous 20.

"Nobody seems to want to hire me," said Truesdel, 41. "I've never been in this position my whole life."

It's not something she wanted to protest about. She said she wasn't interested in joining the anti-Walker demonstrations raging at the state capitol building up the street, where tens of thousands of union workers have swarmed to protest Walker's proposal to strip collective bargaining rights from most government employees.

Too much of a crowd for Truesdel. On Wednesday night, she sat on a barstool three blocks away at a dark dive called Mackesey's Irish Pub, wearing a black hoodie. No noisy protesters here, and not even any students at the moment, either. Just the Wisconsin-Michigan basketball game on TV and burgers for $4. Truesdel and another regular, Mary Baldassare, recognized this reporter as an out-of-towner. Baldassare immediately wanted to know how their visitor liked Madison. "I like to be friendly with people when I see they're new," she said.


<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Baldassare, 59, said she's also wary of the big crowds, though she supports the protesters and unions in general. "It's the only way small people can have their voices heard," she said.<span style='font-size: 17pt'> "In other regular jobs, if you complain, they get rid of you." </span></span></div></div>

read it here (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/28/wisconsin-laid-off-and-left-out_n_828617.html)


Simple.

Q

Gayle in MD
03-01-2011, 09:43 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Why unions?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MADISON, Wis. -- Kathy Truesdel has no love for Scott Walker.

"He kiboshed the high-speed rail. It could have put me to work," she said. "That's my biggest gripe."

Walker, the new Republican governor of Wisconsin, nixed the Milwaukee-to-Madison project started under his predecessor, Jim Doyle (D), which had $810 million behind it from the 2009 stimulus bill. Walker cited the costs of continuing the project once the federal funds ran out, even though the project's proponents said it would have supported 5,500 construction jobs in Wisconsin for the next three years.

Truesdel, a laid-off forklift driver, thought some of that employment might have come her way. She told HuffPost she's been jobless for two years after working steadily for the previous 20.

"Nobody seems to want to hire me," said Truesdel, 41. "I've never been in this position my whole life."

It's not something she wanted to protest about. She said she wasn't interested in joining the anti-Walker demonstrations raging at the state capitol building up the street, where tens of thousands of union workers have swarmed to protest Walker's proposal to strip collective bargaining rights from most government employees.

Too much of a crowd for Truesdel. On Wednesday night, she sat on a barstool three blocks away at a dark dive called Mackesey's Irish Pub, wearing a black hoodie. No noisy protesters here, and not even any students at the moment, either. Just the Wisconsin-Michigan basketball game on TV and burgers for $4. Truesdel and another regular, Mary Baldassare, recognized this reporter as an out-of-towner. Baldassare immediately wanted to know how their visitor liked Madison. "I like to be friendly with people when I see they're new," she said.


<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Baldassare, 59, said she's also wary of the big crowds, though she supports the protesters and unions in general. "It's the only way small people can have their voices heard," she said.<span style='font-size: 17pt'> "In other regular jobs, if you complain, they get rid of you." </span></span></div></div>

read it here (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/28/wisconsin-laid-off-and-left-out_n_828617.html)


Simple.

Q </div></div>
I read that the new Repiglican governor of Florida, nixed the high speed rail, from the Gulf Coast, to the Eastern Seaboard Coast, a project which would have created a huge number of jobs, increased Florida's revenues, was shovel ready, and had been fully planned for years, ready to go.

The charts prove Repiglicans cannot handle money!

G.

pooltchr
03-01-2011, 09:50 AM
Yeah. Amtrack has been losing money and costing the taxpayers money for years. High speed rail will just lose money faster!

Yes, building it might add some jobs in the short term, but the Governor understands that a little bit of Washington money up front might very well end up costing the state much more in the long run.

Steve

Gayle in MD
03-01-2011, 10:43 AM
More on Unions: From a Red State Blue Collar site!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, man, here we go again. I’m scheduled to retire in August of this year. Hopefully, Social Security and Medicare will see me through the rest of my life although I hold no great hopes of that. Maybe we’ll go back to poor farms for the elderly. Whatever….

I have given up on optimism when it comes to the American working class. I’ve seen them betray one another and themselves too many times. What’s going on in Wisconsin is deja vu all over again. And with the lovely addition this time of the Tea Partiers who can always be depended upon to jump off the steepest cliff at Rush and Glenn’s suggestion.

One thing you can always count on is that the rich who rule corporate America will stick together (i.e., the mega-rich Koch Brothers in Wisconsin and their fair-haired Governor Walker). America’s plutocrats may hate each other as individuals but when it comes to forming iron-clad bonds to lobby for laws that benefit them, to influence prices and wages to their advantage, to lavishly support their political cronies, to fund groups that actively seek to turn working class America against itself , they can depend on one another to the bitter end….and they can depend on us playing to type too.

As Mary Kay Horter, who has not had a pay raise or retirement contributions in her job as an occupational therapist for two years, was quoted as saying in the New York Times – “I don’t get to bargain in my job.” And that’s always our the attitude. “I didn’t get a raise/pension/increase in benefits/more holidays, so you shouldn’t either.” It never fails that we can hardly wait to race each other to the freaking bottom.

Over and over, labor is brought down by jealousy. We can’t see that that every hit sustained by the employees of American Whatchamacallit bleeds down to the employees of National Thingamabob. That’s so even if AW’s workers are unionized and NT’s workers are not, in fact, even more so.

Decades ago, America’s strength was its large and prosperous middle class. Our goal then was to bring as many people into the middle class as possible. We believed that the better off America’s workers were, the better off the country was. Well-paid employees meant more consumer spending and that meant more profits and oh, yes, more jobs. Unions played a big part in this scenario. Were they perfect? Absolutely not. Like all entities that grow in power, they also grew in arrogance and corruption. But they were a counter-balance to unlimited power by the corporations who were themselves arrogant and corrupt. They at least made labor a somewhat equal player in the struggle for political parity.

Highly compensated labor bought the cars they produced themselves and the microwave ovens you produced and the house you sold and the steak you served and the gas you pumped. It was a closed loop system. As everyone did better, everyone did better. A rising tide raises all boats, as the old saying goes.

But the corporations never quite bought into that rosy scenario for workers. If they could lower wages and benefits and renege on pensions, their profits would be even higher is how they saw it. And unions and collective bargaining were the root cause of demanding employees.

Ah, but then along came President Ronnie. I have always thought that busting the Air Traffic Controllers Union was a test to see just how much solidarity workers could count on from each other. They chose an elite group of employees. One about which the rest of us could say, “those greedy PATCO people, they make lots more than I do,” (sort of like MaryKay Horter). People for whom it would be unlikely lower wage people would feel much sympathy.

Reagan sentenced the Air Traffic Controllers, not to a temporary suspension for their transgression, but a lifetime disbarment from their profession. Did the rest of us protest that this was cruel and unusual punishment for PATCO’s crime? Nope. We cheered and loved us some RR. What a man! The John Wayne of the White House. God, it made me sick then and it makes me sick remembering it now. Look where that slippery slope took us. It’s sure not Morning in America anymore.

After PATCO, the writing was on the wall. It put those superior Air Traffic Controllers in their places, by Golly, but it sent the rest of us a warning too. When about one/third of us were unionized, we believed that increased productivity and higher wages were roughly comparable. No more. We have fallen to a union membership of about eight percent. Between 1980 and 2008, our productivity increased 75 percent while our wages went up only 22 per cent. So work as hard as you like for your bosses, but your reward probably won’t correspond to your effort.

The Wisconsin’s governor’s attempt to outlaw collective bargaining is just the next phase in the war against labor and if Governor Walker wins, expect other states to take up the banner. This could just be the final nail in the workers’ collective coffin.

Incidentally, for all the talk about budgets and the necessity of employees being willing to pitch in and help, the Wisconsin Public Employees have already agreed to make the cutbacks the governor asked for but that wasn’t enough to satisfy him – he wants to do away with collective bargaining. What do you think the motive for going down that slippery slope could be? Without collective bargaining, there may as well not be a union which is exactly the point.

And let’s see what the result might be. Five states do not allow their teachers to collectively bargain. Here they are with their national rank in education:

South Carolina – 50th

North Carolina – 49th

Georgia – 48th

Texas – 47th

Virginia – 44th.

Wisconsin currently ranks 2nd. If the anti-union crowd wins, what do you suppose that percentage will be in a few years?

The race is on! Let’s see who can get to the bottom first! Just like always.



</div></div>

Excellent summation of the facts.

Repiglicans have REALLY pissed off American Workers this time.

I think the country is waking up at last!

Every poll I have seen, is against this Governor, and against any political Party, even the Repiglicans, desroying the Labor Unions, and their Constitutional Rights.

What colossal LIARS Repiglicans are!

Conservative Without Conscience and people are seeing through their divisive, Gay's Guns and God BS~!

BRAVO!

G.

Gayle in MD
03-01-2011, 10:48 AM
And this, from the left:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 14pt'>Republicans love to control the narrative. They'll use well tested talking points, distortion, distraction, even outright lies (I'm talking about you, Death Panels) and whatever it takes to control the discussion in favor of their political ideology.

They were all over the place in 2008 to take the hopeful "Yes, We Can" message of change from Barack Obama and manipulate it into a demonization of change, community involvement, and liberalism with a side order of Islamophobia and good old fashioned racism to sweeten their ugly pot. And then they brought in Sarah Palin to take their narrative to heights (or, perhaps, depths is a better word) that they have never seen. Then they flew the flag even higher and involved Jesus to make their ideology look patriotic and righteous at the same time. </span>
<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Then came the economic collapse, they pulled out all the stops and used their entire bag of trickery over the past 2 years to make us forget.....


that it was not regular people that caused it.

Listen to the narrative they're selling and the people they're blaming:

--People who lived beyond their means
--People bought homes they couldn't afford
--Public employees with their millionaire benefits and Cadillac benefits

They want to set Americans against each other to make us forget who really caused the financial circumstances we are living in: Big Banks, Wall Street, and job outsourcing.

Job outsourcing has been a problem for decades. It started in the 50s and 60s with factories moving to states with depressed wages. The threat of moving somewhere else was always a factor in the contract negotiations of industrial unions. But the move south to take advantage of lower priced labor wasn't enough for corporations.

As trade agreements were made by the federal government, sold to us as methods to expand the world market to US goods, tariffs fell and the US market was wide open for cheap imports from foreign countries. US corporations saw this as a golden opportunity for themselves. Without tariffs, corporations had an incentive to move to third world nations and pay near slave wages to make their products for importation back to US markets. Manufacturing on the cheap and importation at the same price as before let them pocket the difference.

Good jobs disappeared and people began to accept lower paying jobs with few, if any benefits. The middle class started slipping into poverty.</span><span style='font-size: 20pt'>On to the financial villains.

Wall Street and Banksters, after every nickel they can scrape up, gambled away not only investors money and the pensions and IRAs of millions of Americans, they gambled away money they didn't have or couldn't access. Ever. It was like overdrawing on our checking accounts while controlling the auditing at our banks to hide the overdrafts. But one day, the bills come due and you can't hide it anymore.

The bundled, no-good, ready-to-fail mortgages that were deliberately solicited from bamboozled borrowers were packaged and sold as triple A rated investments with an insurance policy so the sellers would get paid no matter what happened. When they went bust and the money wasn't there to make good on the insurance, the dominoes started to fall. They fell on us. We had to bail them out, so we were told.

Too bad about our investments and pensions. We'd have to eat those losses, too. In fact, Americans have essentially been charged double for Bank and Wall Street greed.

And now they're up to the same old shenanigans again. Worse. And why wouldn't they? Not a single one of them has gone to jail or been held accountable. In fact, they're taking home bigger salaries and bonuses than ever. Yes, a few of them have paid fines, but the fines have come at the expense of their customers, not out of their profits. They have repaid none of the losses they caused.

Banks are not lending and to the extent that they are, they're using zero interest Federal Reserve money and lending it at high interest. Nice profits in that. For them.

Business is also hanging onto its cash, not expanding and not hiring because they can't get loans. Small business, lowest on the lending tree, is in the most trouble so they're going bust and the jobs lost there are adding to already elevated levels of unemployment.

It's a viscious circle. Jobs going to foreign countries plus jobs lost at home lead to high unemployment. Business laying off or going belly up increases unemployment. People who were expecting to retire are still working since their pensions are gone in the crash so those jobs aren't open either.

High unemployment leads to people working at lower paying jobs with less benefits. The tax base erodes as people aren't making the income they once did, and governments struggle to pay unemployment benefits and health costs for newly qualified former middle class citizens along with their normal obligations. Keep this process going and you'll see why federal, state, and local budgets are in deficit.

Keep going with tax breaks for the rich and corporations, tax loopholes that allow a majority of our Fortune 500 Companies to pay zero taxes, add in corporate tax subsidies, and you'll soon see why we are in a financial stranglehold.

Republicans, at the behest of their corporate sponsors, don't want you to know these things. They feed the ongoing narrative that it's you, the regular schmo, with your excessive spending and high debt who is responsible. Or they want you to blame your neighbors. Or those guys over there. Hey, here's another shiney object for you to look at so you don't look at the real bad guys.

They are currently blaming public employees as a cause, trying to decimate the few jobs left in this country that can't be sent to China, Viet Nam, India, or some other labor at 25 cents an hour country. They also don't like these people because they are the work force in this country that is the most unionized. And those unions don't endorse or support Republican ideology.

They're using our current financial crisis accomplish something they've wanted to do for decades: destroy public employee unions. On top of that, they're using it to further manipulate public opinion on the causes of deficits to and divide the middle class for their political benefit. Their ongoing mantra seems to be: Make Every Job Crappy!

Look at the real causes of our financial deficits and crisis and you'll see who is really to blame hiding in a dark corner. Educate your neighbors about the Shell Game of Blame that they are selling so it can't be used to destroy public employment the same way that they have virtually destroyed every good middle-class job in this country.

We need to have accountability and responsibility apply to everyone. The Banksters and Wall Street Thieves need to be held just as accountable as bank robbers and burglers are. Taxes are for everyone, not just the "little people". Tarrifs need to be reimposed to level the playing field and benefit US manufacturing and US jobs. Job creation here must be rewarded and outsourcing experience consequences to insure a growing and vibrant middle class.

Failure to act will result in our country becoming a Third World nation.

Don't let them make you forget. Support the peaceful protests in Madison and elsewhere. </span>Originally posted to Puddytat on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 03:03 PM EST.

</div></div>

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/28/951016/-What-Republicans-are-Counting-on-Us-to-Forget

pooltchr
03-01-2011, 11:21 AM
Nobody in their right mind could possibly buy into this crap. I guess that explains why you posted it. You just wanted us all to see how crazy some people actually can be!

Thanks for such an enlighteninng post!

Steve

Gayle in MD
03-01-2011, 12:03 PM
And, it's all part of the Repiglican failed policies, that the market will sefl adjust, that trickle down works, that deregulation is good for America, and that the Tea Partiers, have anything between their ears, at all.

Links follow....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffHFjlqIzKE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ObZvdedXx0&feature=related

trickle down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wputRsxArSI&feature=fvwrel

markets are not self sustaining, need regulation, thatcher/Reagan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orsfTY-zL-w&feature=related

Smith's invisable hand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orsfTY-zL-w&feature=related

To the Tea party the gov saved us from a depression

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2urqysF_56k&NR=1&feature=fvwp

What caused the meltdown, Bush, War, transfer of wealth, greenspan low interest rates
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orsfTY-zL-w&feature=related

Moral failure of capitalism, predatory lending, trickle up, fraud and corruption, enron

sack316
03-01-2011, 01:56 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I read that the new Repiglican governor of Florida, nixed the high speed rail, from the Gulf Coast, to the Eastern Seaboard Coast, a project which would have created a huge number of jobs, increased Florida's revenues, was shovel ready, and had been fully planned for years, ready to go.


</div></div>

Kudos to him for that. The Fed was gonna dole out billions to Florida for a rail to cover a trip that only takes a little over an hour as is? Better off widening I4 and saving some money IMHO. If they want to do a high speed rail from say New York to Orlando, then we may have something useful. But Orlando to Tampa is equivalent to me (around Montgomery) going to Birmingham... it's just easier to hop in the car and go than anything else.

On another note, I thought you complained about southern states taking subsidies for things? Why is a southern state rejecting a subsidy now also bad?

Sack

Gayle in MD
03-01-2011, 02:05 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I read that the new Repiglican governor of Florida, nixed the high speed rail, from the Gulf Coast, to the Eastern Seaboard Coast, a project which would have created a huge number of jobs, increased Florida's revenues, was shovel ready, and had been fully planned for years, ready to go.


</div></div>

Kudos to him for that. The Fed was gonna dole out billions to Florida for a rail to cover a trip that only takes a little over an hour as is? Better off widening I4 and saving some money IMHO. If they want to do a high speed rail from say New York to Orlando, then we may have something useful. But Orlando to Tampa is equivalent to me (around Montgomery) going to Birmingham... it's just easier to hop in the car and go than anything else.

On another note, I thought you complained about southern states taking subsidies for things? Why is a southern state rejecting a subsidy now also bad?

Sack </div></div>

A trip that only take a little over an hour??????????????

BWA HA HA HA....forgive me, but obviously, you've never driven it, yet you are backing this decision up to the hilt!

Nuff said...and btw, Sack, did you have any problem with Bush killing innocent people in Iraq, on lies?

Is THAT the Christian Way????

RE-defining RAPE?

Suspending help for poor women for health care at Planned Paenthood? Christian Way????

Demonizing Gay people, is that the Christian Way????

Taking away the Unions right to bargain, for political purposes, is THAT the Christian Way????

How about Torture, Christian?

The rich Wall Street PIGS, stealing from all of us, Christian enough for you???


Catholic Priests, banging little boys, Christian enough for you????

The Cristian Coalition has produced a slew of mentally ill people, thieves and liars, rapists, druggies, both in and out of office. How do we explain that? Suspend our critical thinking skills????

G.

sack316
03-01-2011, 02:17 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
A trip that only take a little over an hour??????????????

BWA HA HA HA....forgive me, but obviously, you've never driven it, yet you are backing this decision up to the hilt!</div></div>

Yes I have driven it in 1 hr 15 minutes. It could use some lanes added, yes... but billions of dollars for a rail for THAT trip is overkill.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nuff said...and btw, Sack, did you have any problem with Bush killing innocent people in Iraq, on lies?

Is THAT the Christian Way????

RE-defining RAPE?

Suspending help to poor women for health care at Planned Paenthood? Christian Way????

Demonizing Gay people, is that the Christian Way????

Taking away the Unions right to bargain, for political purposes, is THAT the Christian Way????

How about Torture, Christian?

The rich Wall Street PIGS, stealing from all of us, christian enough for you???


Catholic Priests, banging little boys, Christian enough for you????

The Cristian Coalition has produced a slew of mentally ill people, thieves and liars, rapists, druggies, both in and out of office. How do we explain that? Suspend our critical thinking skills????

G. </div></div>

What the jack crap does all that have to do with this? My guess is you realize what I said is probably more correct at this moment and in this situation... so slinging a bunch of mud and off topic emotionally charged talking points was a better response than actually discussing what I said about a trip I have driven personally.

Now, again, as I said... let's see about a rail for like Orlando to New York and we may be on to something useful. But Orlando to Tampa? Seriously... you gonna support the gov't sending Alabama a few billion to give us a rail from Montgomery to Birmingham too? I'd hope not, because that would be useless.

Sack

Gayle in MD
03-01-2011, 02:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
A trip that only take a little over an hour??????????????

BWA HA HA HA....forgive me, but obviously, you've never driven it, yet you are backing this decision up to the hilt!</div></div>

Yes I have driven it in 1 hr 15 minutes. It could use some lanes added, yes... but billions of dollars for a rail for THAT trip is overkill.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nuff said...and btw, Sack, did you have any problem with Bush killing innocent people in Iraq, on lies?

Is THAT the Christian Way????

RE-defining RAPE?

Suspending help to poor women for health care at Planned Paenthood? Christian Way????

Demonizing Gay people, is that the Christian Way????

Taking away the Unions right to bargain, for political purposes, is THAT the Christian Way????

How about Torture, Christian?

The rich Wall Street PIGS, stealing from all of us, christian enough for you???


Catholic Priests, banging little boys, Christian enough for you????

The Cristian Coalition has produced a slew of mentally ill people, thieves and liars, rapists, druggies, both in and out of office. How do we explain that? Suspend our critical thinking skills????

G. </div></div>

What the jack crap does all that have to do with this? My guess is you realize what I said is probably more correct at this moment and in this situation... so slinging a bunch of mud and off topic emotionally charged talking points was a better response than actually discussing what I said about a trip I have driven personally.

Now, again, as I said... let's see about a rail for like Orlando to New York and we may be on to something useful. But Orlando to Tampa? Seriously... you gonna support the gov't sending Alabama a few billion to give us a rail from Montgomery to Birmingham too? I'd hope not, because that would be useless.

Sack </div></div>

I am answering your last attempt to paint me as a hypocrite...guess you didn't get it?

Got any answers for the questions I asked you????

How come you support a party which is so obviously Un-Christian in their policies????

I have friends in all over Florida, Tampa, ST Pete's, Ft Lauderdale, Destin, Miami, Tallahassee, and at least a dozen other locations, in Florida, where I spend at least a month, a year, so please, don't try to tell me you drove that corridor in an hour and fifteen minutes, unless you did it at four am....or over five years ago....
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

The Fla. Governor, like the rest of the Repiglicans, doesn't want twenty thousand jobs to pop up in a year when Repiglican's main goal, is to ruin Obama's chances to be re-elected, period.

Virtually every proposal, is a job killing proposal, their not well hidden agenda, is too obvious.
G.

pooltchr
03-01-2011, 02:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am answering your last attempt to paint me as a hypocrite...guess you didn't get it?

</div></div>

I think you are the one who didn't get it. You pi$$ and moan about federal money going to southern states, the then you pi$$ and moan when a southern governor turnd down federal money.

It's becoming quite obvious that you are not capable of rational thought or discussion. You can't stay on topic. You can't discuss any subject at all without crying about Bush. You post the same talking points in everything you post. You duplicate your post in multiple threads.

Get some help!

Steve

sack316
03-01-2011, 03:02 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am answering your last attempt to paint me as a hypocrite...guess you didn't get it?

Got any answers for the questions I asked you????</div></div>

Ah ok, well that would make sense if I have ever once said I support any of those things (which I haven't). You on the other hand have specifically said things numerous times against subsidies going to the south.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How come you support a party which is so obviously Un-Christian in their policies????</div></div>

I don't. I support individuals who I believe is best suited for the position which they are running, or individuals with whom I think are doing well. I'm not the one who sticks to things strictly by party lines.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have friends in all over Florida, Tampa, ST Pete's, Ft Lauderdale, Destin, Miami, Tallahassee, and at least a dozen other locations, in Florida, where I spend at least a month, a year, so please, don't try to tell me you drove that corridor in an hour and fifteen minutes, unless you did it at four am....or over five years ago....
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif</div></div>

I have driven it a few times, and I also have many friends who live down there as well. In fact I just asked a friend on facebook who moved to Tampa about 2 years ago. She said on a bad day it can take 2 hours. On average it takes her just under an hour and a half. And on a good day it is doable in an hour.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Fla/. Governor, like the rest of the Repiglicans, doesn't want twenty thousand jobs to pop up in a year when Repiglican's main goal, is to ruin Obama's chances to be re-elected, period.

Virtually every p[roposal, is a job killing proposal, their not well hidden agenda, is too obvious.
</div></div>

That could well be. Or it could be reasons he has stated. Or a combination of both (most likely). All I know is a high speed rail is not a necessity right now... and even if all the numbers are as stated there would be a cost overrun:

$2.4 billion is the subsidy. 23,000 is the estimated number of jobs for it. That works out to $104,347 for each worker (not counting supplies and all that stuff). So on labor <u>alone</u> the subsidy would be torn through in what? Like 2 MAYBE 3 years tops if we are very conservative with what the workers will be paid? And we haven't even factored in any other costs yet. Who pays the rest of what it will cost?

Sack

Gayle in MD
03-01-2011, 03:09 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am answering your last attempt to paint me as a hypocrite...guess you didn't get it?

Got any answers for the questions I asked you????</div></div>

Ah ok, well that would make sense if I have ever once said I support any of those things (which I haven't). You on the other hand have specifically said things numerous times against subsidies going to the south.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How come you support a party which is so obviously Un-Christian in their policies????</div></div>

I don't. I support individuals who I believe is best suited for the position which they are running, or individuals with whom I think are doing well. I'm not the one who sticks to things strictly by party lines.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have friends in all over Florida, Tampa, ST Pete's, Ft Lauderdale, Destin, Miami, Tallahassee, and at least a dozen other locations, in Florida, where I spend at least a month, a year, so please, don't try to tell me you drove that corridor in an hour and fifteen minutes, unless you did it at four am....or over five years ago....
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif</div></div>

I have driven it a few times, and I also have many friends who live down there as well. In fact I just asked a friend on facebook who moved to Tampa about 2 years ago. She said on a bad day it can take 2 hours. On average it takes her just under an hour and a half. And on a good day it is doable in an hour.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Fla/. Governor, like the rest of the Repiglicans, doesn't want twenty thousand jobs to pop up in a year when Repiglican's main goal, is to ruin Obama's chances to be re-elected, period.

Virtually every p[roposal, is a job killing proposal, their not well hidden agenda, is too obvious.
</div></div>

That could well be. Or it could be reasons he has stated. Or a combination of both (most likely). All I know is a high speed rail is not a necessity right now... and even if all the numbers are as stated there would be a cost overrun:

$2.4 billion is the subsidy. 23,000 is the estimated number of jobs for it. That works out to $104,347 for each worker (not counting supplies and all that stuff). So on labor <u>alone</u> the subsidy would be torn through in what? Like 2 MAYBE 3 years tops if we are very conservative with what the workers will be paid? And we haven't even factored in any other costs yet. Who pays the rest of what it will cost?

Sack </div></div>

You didn't support Bush's War In Iraq? I thought you said you voted, twice for Bush? Why would you do that, if you are against torture, against homophobia, against misogeny, against the redistribution of wealth to the top?

NEED, is not the issue. JOBS are the issue. Where are all those jobs Repiglicans kept harping about?

So far all they have done is destroy them, and continue with their usual divisive, exclusionary, radical attacks on the American groups that their Christian Coalition hates, women, gays, the poor and unemployed now you can add union workers. Where does it end?

G.

sack316
03-01-2011, 03:25 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You didn't support Bush's War In Iraq? I thought you said you voted, twice for Bush? Why would you do that, if you are against torture, against homophobia, against misogeny, against the redistribution of wealth to the top?</div></div>

I DID support the invasion of Iraq and taking out Hussein. Actually you did too. How it has all gone down since then (and how we got into it for that matter), I do not support. I voted for Bush once, I voted for nobody in the next election.

The rest of your sentence is opinion and ignorant. That would be like me saying you are homophobic for Voting for Clinton because he signed the Defense of Marriage Act. Is that true that you are homophobic because you voted for the guy who signed that act into law? And probably voted for a large number of Democrats who voted for it in the House and Senate? No, because I know better than that... and so do you.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NEED, is not the issue. JOBS are the issue. Where are all those jobs Repiglicans kept harping about?</div></div>

Good question. Where are all the real and <u>permanent</u> jobs Republicans AND Democrats have been talking about?

Now again, when the cost for the railway goes beyond the subsidy (which I believe I clearly showed that in all likelihood it will greatly go over it), who pays for it?

Sack

JohnnyD
03-01-2011, 03:59 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
A trip that only take a little over an hour??????????????

BWA HA HA HA....forgive me, but obviously, you've never driven it, yet you are backing this decision up to the hilt!</div></div>

Yes I have driven it in 1 hr 15 minutes. It could use some lanes added, yes... but billions of dollars for a rail for THAT trip is overkill.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nuff said...and btw, Sack, did you have any problem with Bush killing innocent people in Iraq, on lies?

Is THAT the Christian Way????

RE-defining RAPE?

Suspending help to poor women for health care at Planned Paenthood? Christian Way????

Demonizing Gay people, is that the Christian Way????

Taking away the Unions right to bargain, for political purposes, is THAT the Christian Way????

How about Torture, Christian?

The rich Wall Street PIGS, stealing from all of us, christian enough for you???


Catholic Priests, banging little boys, Christian enough for you????

The Cristian Coalition has produced a slew of mentally ill people, thieves and liars, rapists, druggies, both in and out of office. How do we explain that? Suspend our critical thinking skills????

G. </div></div>

What the jack crap does all that have to do with this? My guess is you realize what I said is probably more correct at this moment and in this situation... so slinging a bunch of mud and off topic emotionally charged talking points was a better response than actually discussing what I said about a trip I have driven personally.

Now, again, as I said... let's see about a rail for like Orlando to New York and we may be on to something useful. But Orlando to Tampa? Seriously... you gonna support the gov't sending Alabama a few billion to give us a rail from Montgomery to Birmingham too? I'd hope not, because that would be useless.

Sack </div></div>

I am answering your last attempt to paint me as a hypocrite...guess you didn't get it?

Got any answers for the questions I asked you????

How come you support a party which is so obviously Un-Christian in their policies????

I have friends in all over Florida, Tampa, ST Pete's, Ft Lauderdale, Destin, Miami, Tallahassee, and at least a dozen other locations, in Florida, where I spend at least a month, a year, so please, don't try to tell me you drove that corridor in an hour and fifteen minutes, unless you did it at four am....or over five years ago....
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

The Fla. Governor, like the rest of the Repiglicans, doesn't want twenty thousand jobs to pop up in a year when Repiglican's main goal, is to ruin Obama's chances to be re-elected, period.

Virtually every proposal, is a job killing proposal, their not well hidden agenda, is too obvious.
G.


</div></div> A vile filled post.Jesus loves you.

pooltchr
03-01-2011, 04:16 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JohnnyD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
</div></div> A vile filled post.Jesus loves you. [/quote]

I fear her hatred is consuming her.

Steve

LWW
03-01-2011, 05:48 PM
She is already engulfed in the flames of hatred.

LWW

Gayle in MD
03-01-2011, 06:16 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You didn't support Bush's War In Iraq? I thought you said you voted, twice for Bush? Why would you do that, if you are against torture, against homophobia, against misogeny, against the redistribution of wealth to the top?</div></div>

I DID support the invasion of Iraq and taking out Hussein. Actually you did too.
<span style='font-size: 14pt'>
No, I did not! We went through this already! The truth is that no one was told the truth, and had Bush not lied to us, no one would have even given him the benefit of the doubt, in the midst of our collective national grief, so don't say that again. It is a straw man argument.</span>

How it has all gone down since then (and how we got into it for that matter), I do not support. I voted for Bush once, I voted for nobody in the next election.

The rest of your sentence is opinion and ignorant. That would be like me saying you are homophobic for Voting for Clinton because he signed the Defense of Marriage Act. Is that true that you are homophobic because you voted for the guy who signed that act into law? And probably voted for a large number of Democrats who voted for it in the House and Senate? No, because I know better than that... and so do you.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NEED, is not the issue. JOBS are the issue. Where are all those jobs Repiglicans kept harping about?</div></div>

Good question. Where are all the real and <u>permanent</u> jobs Republicans AND Democrats have been talking about?

Now again, when the cost for the railway goes beyond the subsidy (which I believe I clearly showed that in all likelihood it will greatly go over it), who pays for it?

Sack </div></div>

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Let me ask you a question, if Repiglicans continue to block everything we need to do to re-build this country, redistributing wealth to the top, and taking more and more from those who are struggling, who do you think is going to pay for THAT?

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>And NO, you didn't prove a damn thing. The fact is, Floridians WANT that super railway, because it will raise loads of revenue in their state, by increasing revenue from tourism, not to mention jobs!</span>But that's fine, there are plenty of progressives in the North East, who will be more than glad to take what this idiot in Florida, turned down. Floridians are working now to recall the governor, and those who support him... I wish them well.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'> Who is ignorant??? </span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sheryl Young Sheryl Young – Fri Feb 18, 8:01 pm ET

Floridians may get the chance to recall elected state officials if a new bill makes its way through the legislative process in Tallahassee.

Florida State Rep. Rick Kriseman (D - St. Petersburg) filed a House Joint Resolution in the state capitol on Feb. 16. HJR 785 would give Florida voters one opportunity to un-elect a member of the Florida legislature and higher officials, even the governor.

Kriseman told Tampa Bay's Bay News 9-TV that his bill has nothing to do with several recently started Facebook campaigns to recall Governor Rick Scott. He says he's been working on this bill for months, and that 18 states already have measures in place for citizens to pull officials out of office if their performance is deemed sufficiently destructive to their states' well-being.

Kriseman's proposed bill would allow a petition for recall to be circulated throughout Florida by voters who desire to do so. They would have four months to collect signatures against a state official from all of Florida's counties. In the case of legislators, the signatures must include a certain number from his/her own district.

The number of signatures would need to equal 15 percent of the voters in the most recent election. A special election would then be held to determine if the consensus is the same among the majority of voters.

If there are not enough votes to remove the politician, he or she would be able to complete their term of office. There could possibly be reimbursement to the official for expenses incurred while campaigning against the petition.

This process could only be used one time against the same person.

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>On the same day Kriseman filed his bill, Gov. Scott rejected long-awaited plans for a high-speed rail. Scott also rejected $2 billion in federal dollars offered for the project by President Obama, for the main reason that he wishes to reduce federal debt instead of increase it.

This has angered some citizens and officials because construction of the rail would bring thousands of jobs to the area, and give Florida better public transportation between its cities.</span>Others were pleased with the decision for several reasons, including the fact that Florida will then not be beholden to pay back the federal money; and also it remained uncertain how travelers would get to and from the high-speed rail stops in some locations. This wouldn't relieve the traffic situation or resolve inadequate bus transportation.

<span style='font-size: 20pt'>But Tampa's Mayor, Pam Iorio, told WUSF Radio that the money offered by President Obama was actually to be some of Florida taxpayers' money back from the fed. Now, other states are asking President Obama for that money since Florida won't be using it.</span>If Kriseman's HJR 785 is successful, those rallying for Scott's recall (like this Facebook page or this one) could get their wish.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110219/tr_ac/7889810_floridians_may_get_opportunities_to_recall _state_



Critics of Gov. Rick Scott's proposed budget reductions and tax cuts plan protests across Florida as legislators convene two weeks from today.




The backlash won't be as big as Wisconsin's mobilization of public employees, but the political implications are just as great. President Obama carried both states in 2008 and needs their combined 39 electoral votes next year, but both states last November elected tea party-backed Republican governors who promised to cut spending — and both have U.S. Senate races brewing.

Organizers of some labor, civil rights and Democratic Party groups said Monday that, because of Florida's geography and the difficulty of working people getting to the Capitol, they opted for rallies at government office complexes and parks in major cities on March 8.
<span style='font-size: 20pt'>
Tallahassee will have some protests, but the main thrust will be lobbying by representatives of state employees, teachers, police and firefighters and advocates for programs affected by Scott's plans for $5 billion in spending cuts and $1.7 billion in tax reductions.

"There are a lot of angry people because of this," Tim Heberlein, an organizer for the Florida Consumer Action Network in Tampa, said Monday. In addition to fiscal policy, he said, local officials in the Tampa Bay area were motivated by Scott's rejection of federal funding of a high-speed rail project.

Susannah Randolph, executive director of Florida Watch Action in Orlando, said her group is organizing rallies in major cities to focus attention on the Legislature.

"It's sort of an organic movement started on Facebook," she said. "There's a big movement afoot to oppose what's going on in Tallahassee right now."

Damien Filer of Progress Florida in Tallahassee said a Facebook page called "Awake the State" was "liked" by 2,665 people in a few days.

"Draconian budget cuts proposed by Gov. Scott along with equally destructive proposals from the Legislature are threatening Floridians from every walk of life," he said. "Our goal with Awake the State is to give a platform to Floridians who want to speak out on the opening day of session and make sure their voices are heard, in addition to the message put forth by Gov. Scott in his State of the State address."</span>(2 of 2)


Senate President Mike Haridopolos, R-Merritt Island, supports Scott in cutting spending to meet a $3.6-billion revenue shortfall without raising taxes. A GOP candidate for the U.S. Senate next year, Haridopolos also backs Scott's decision to turn down the high-speed rail money.




He said, "We don't want to penalize people," but state spending must be cut. Haridopolos declined to speculate on political ramifications for 2012 but said the last election showed the public likes conservatives.

"I don't know the political answer, but the policy answer is that we're going to lead by example and the voters clearly sided with us last November," he said. "The policies that we're talking about, tightening our own belts first, are very much in sync with public opinion."

<span style='font-size: 20pt'>But Senate minority leader Nan Rich, D-Weston, said the public will eventually turn on Republicans for an average $703-per-student reduction in school funding, among other budget cuts. She also said the state can't afford to cut the corporate income tax from 5.5 to 3 percent, as Scott proposes, and that voters will turn to Democrats if teachers are laid off and emergency services are cut.</span>
<span style='font-size: 20pt'>
"It's a little early to make predictions, but some organized demonstrations will benefit the Democrats," she said. "People will start to see the impact of what the tea party would like the Republicans who run the state to do with public services."

Stephanie Porta, director of Organize Now, said her group plans a march and rally in downtown Orlando. She said organizations in several cities will lobby at the Capitol.

"It's too expensive and out of the way to get everyone to Tallahassee, so we are organizing where we live," she said. "And if we are loud enough, the people in power in Tallahassee will hear us."

Joseph Phelan, organizer of a "Just Work Campaign" for Florida New Majority in Miami, said unemployed people will be bused to Tallahassee on March 9 for a rally against restrictions on unemployment compensation. He said New Majority is a coalition of labor and civil rights activists.</span>With the GOP holding two-thirds majorities in both legislative chambers, he said, Scott may get most of what he wants <span style='font-size: 26pt'>"but we have to speak out." Like Rich, Phelan predicted voters will feel the impact of taxation and budgeting practices in time for next year's elections.</span>Next Page
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Read more: Floridians plan protests around the state | tallahassee.com | Tallahassee Democrat http://www.tallahassee.com/article/20110...e#ixzz1FOhb0trE (http://www.tallahassee.com/article/20110222/CAPITOLNEWS/102220318/Floridians-plan-protests-around-the-state#ixzz1FOhb0trE)



</div></div>
An HOUR TO DRIVE IT, LMAO! NEVER!

And your statement, comparing Clinton, and my vote, is absurd. Repiglicans are perpetually voting aGAINST the rights, of others. Clinton was never for torture! Was NEVER for launching land wars that would kill hundreds of thousands of people, and he never lied us into a WAR. Voting for a party with a historry of law breaking, and torture, is totally diferent.

There is nothing "Christian" about Repiglicans! If you can't see how they vote against every moral issue, than you aren't looking very hard at their votes.


G.</span>

JohnnyD
03-01-2011, 06:17 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JohnnyD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
</div></div> A vile filled post.Jesus loves you. </div></div>

I fear her hatred is consuming her.

Steve [/quote]It is terrible like her love child that doesn't post much anymore.

JohnnyD
03-01-2011, 06:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">She is already engulfed in the flames of hatred.

LWW </div></div> Hatred and lies abound.

Sev
03-01-2011, 07:09 PM
Wow shes on a tare.

Really losing it.

sack316
03-02-2011, 12:21 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
No, I did not! We went through this already! The truth is that no one was told the truth, and had Bush not lied to us, no one would have even given him the benefit of the doubt, in the midst of our collective national grief, so don't say that again. It is a straw man argument.</div></div>

Yes, and under the guise of what was said at the time, you supported it. And you also said at various points that Sadaam had to go. That's something everyone agreed on, even long before Bush was even in office. I supported it too, for the same reasons you did. Knowing things we know now, I would not support HOW we got there and the excuses used to do it. But I do still believe the removal of Sadaam was necessary at some point regardless. And I know you do too.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let me ask you a question...</div></div>

I've answered quite a few of your questions now. How about you answer my simple on that I have asked at least twice thus far?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And NO, you didn't prove a damn thing.</div></div>

OK, if you say so fine. I used the numbers that are right there. Disprove what I said if I am wrong. Mathematical error? Misinterpretation of funding, costs, etc? Certainly all possibilities where I could err. Just tell me where and how I did make a mistake on what I said. But surely you can do better than the above quote to tell me if I am wrong.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The fact is, Floridians WANT that super railway... </div></div>

And yet you'll also say he's declining for political purposes. Last I checked, politicians who do things solely for political gain do things that their people want... not the other way around.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">because it will raise loads of revenue in their state, by increasing revenue from tourism, not to mention jobs! </div></div>

temporary jobs. Perhaps a temporary bump in tourism even. But I'm sorry, people aren't gonna suddenly choose FL as their vacation destination just to ride a train once the new wears off.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But that's fine, there are plenty of progressives in the North East, who will be more than glad to take what this idiot in Florida, turned down. Floridians are working now to recall the governor, and those who support him... I wish them well.</div></div>

Good, they can have it. Floridians will be upset now, whoever takes it will be happy now. In a decade when it becomes a liability and an addition to state deficit I'm sure emotions will be reversed on that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An HOUR TO DRIVE IT, LMAO! NEVER!</div></div>

85 mile distance at 85mph disproves that "never" theory. Granted, rare... but doable and done. Not that it matters, be it an hour, an hour and a half, two hours... hell lets make a huge traffic jam and call it three... my original point on that is still the exact same

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And your statement, comparing Clinton, and my vote, is absurd.</div></div>

That was kind of the point I was trying to make! Just as it is absurd to imply that because I voted for Bush in 2000 and I am a conservative that it somehow makes me a torture supporting, women right denying, gay bashing homophobic (among many other things you said). I'm glad you see how absurd that is.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Clinton was never for torture!</div></div>

Yeah, I'm sure his use of extraordinary rendition was usually just for a friendly chat over coffee. He sent people to Egypt... nobody is ever tortured there /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Sack

LWW
03-02-2011, 04:41 AM
Then why isn't everyone in a union?

LWW

Qtec
03-02-2011, 06:06 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then why isn't everyone in a union?

LWW </div></div>

Are you buried underground living in a box?

Sure sounds like it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 14pt'>Baldassare, 59, said she's also wary of the big crowds, though she supports the protesters and unions in general. "It's the only way small people can have their voices heard," she said.</span><span style='font-size: 26pt'> "In other regular jobs, if you complain, they get rid of you." </span> </div></div>

Wake up.

Q

JohnnyD
03-02-2011, 06:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then why isn't everyone in a union?

LWW </div></div>A great question.

Qtec
03-02-2011, 06:24 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JohnnyD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then why isn't everyone in a union?

LWW </div></div>A great question. </div></div>

I just answered it you friggin moron.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> "In other regular jobs, <span style="color: #3333FF"><span style='font-size: 26pt'>NON UNION JOBS <u>if you complain, they get rid of you."</u> </div></div></span> </span>

God might save you... but he/she/it doesn't guarantee that a believer has a greater IQ than a boiled egg...as you and your brethren have so magnificently demonstrated.



Q

JohnnyD
03-02-2011, 06:37 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JohnnyD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then why isn't everyone in a union?

LWW </div></div>A great question. </div></div>

I just answered it you friggin moron.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> "In other regular jobs, <span style="color: #3333FF"><span style='font-size: 26pt'>NON UNION JOBS <u>if you complain, they get rid of you."</u> </div></div></span> </span>

God might save you... but he/she/it doesn't guarantee that a believer has a greater IQ than a boiled egg...as you and your brethren have so magnificently demonstrated.



Q </div></div>Why do you avoid the issue.Seek the truth and if you are serious you will find it.The truth will set one free.The truth is always there.The truth never goes away.The truth will set you free.Seek the truth.Go in peace and thruout your day knowing Jesus loves you.

JohnnyD
03-02-2011, 06:40 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then why isn't everyone in a union?

LWW </div></div>

Are you buried underground living in a box?

Sure sounds like it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 14pt'>Baldassare, 59, said she's also wary of the big crowds, though she supports the protesters and unions in general. "It's the only way small people can have their voices heard," she said.</span><span style='font-size: 26pt'> "In other regular jobs, if you complain, they get rid of you." </span> </div></div>

Wake up.

Q </div></div>When you post it is best that you collect factual data before hand.You are a good writer i know that you can do it.Do not be afraid of the truth.The truth will set you free.Read the good book,Jesus loves you.

Qtec
03-02-2011, 06:41 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why do you avoid the issue </div></div>

<span style='font-size: 26pt'>What issue</span>........... you fake.

Can't wait.

Q

JohnnyD
03-02-2011, 06:48 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JohnnyD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then why isn't everyone in a union?

LWW </div></div>A great question. </div></div>

I just answered it you friggin moron.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> "In other regular jobs, <span style="color: #3333FF"><span style='font-size: 26pt'>NON UNION JOBS <u>if you complain, they get rid of you."</u> </div></div></span> </span>

God might save you... but he/she/it doesn't guarantee that a believer has a greater IQ than a boiled egg...as you and your brethren have so magnificently demonstrated.



Q </div></div>The IQ is a wonderful line item.The gift of having comprehension is what you need.It is ok do not fret.The truth is there and comprehension will help you understand the truth.Do not be afraid of the truth.IF you need help in finding the truth LWW will give his assistance.He has helped many people on here.He is the myth slayer of all time.He helps people find the truth.
THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE

JohnnyD
03-02-2011, 06:55 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why do you avoid the issue </div></div>

<span style='font-size: 26pt'>What issue</span>........... you fake.

Can't wait.

Q </div></div>The issue is the truth.You have the ability to attain the truth.Relax and let yourself be free.Take a walk in a nature preserve and admire all of GOD's gifts.Wonder in amazement at the beauty and glory.Take your flask and sip a fine scotch whiskey.Let your thoughts wander as you relax in nature.The truth is there for you to find.You can do this with help from comprehension.The truth will set you free.
Love and peace always
Your friend
JohnnyD

Qtec
03-02-2011, 06:56 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> IF you need help in finding the truth LWW will give his assistance.</div></div>

LMFAO...........LOL

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>Right there you just lost all credibility.</span>

What you lost <u>wasn't much but it was all you had.</u>

You sound so much like him you could almost BE him.

Q..............I guess you are just cursed.

JohnnyD
03-02-2011, 07:01 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> IF you need help in finding the truth LWW will give his assistance.</div></div>

LMFAO...........LOL

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>Right there you just lost all credibility.</span>

What you lost <u>wasn't much but it was all you had.</u>

You sound so much like him you could almost BE him.

Q..............I guess you are just cursed. </div></div>
You still avoid the truth.One must be ready for the truth before they accept it.IF you continue to avoid the truth this is ok.Do not worry when you are ready the truth will be waiting.
One cannot change the truth.The truth is constant it will always be the truth.The truth can hurt.The truth can heal.Always,the truth will be the truth.Accept the truth now.Do not languish in your life over this.The truth will set you free.
Do not ever forget &gt; Jesus loves you.

Gayle in MD
03-02-2011, 08:23 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
No, I did not! We went through this already! The truth is that no one was told the truth, and had Bush not lied to us, no one would have even given him the benefit of the doubt, in the midst of our collective national grief, so don't say that again. It is a straw man argument.</div></div>

Yes, and under the guise of what was said at the time, you supported it.

<span style="color: #990000">Again, I don't think anyone would have supported any occupation, any War With Iraq, at all, if we had known that the Bush Administration was "Fixing intel to fit their BS MUSHROOM CLOUD, policy"

We were lied into that war, and NO! I DID NOT think that invading Iraq, NOR occupying Iraq, was justifiable.

From the start, I have said, over and over again, I am only for war as a last resort, after ALL diplomatic efforts have been exhausted, such as giving the insprector another month or so....which I stated, at the time, and as for WAR, ONLY when their is PROOF, that we are at risk of an attack, or have been attacked.</span>


And you also said at various points that Sadaam had to go.

<span style="color: #990000">ONLY if he had a plan for the non existant MUSHROOM CLOUDS, so no, my thinking at the time was as much, ....HUH? SADDAM???? Our mission SHOULD have been to get the man who was leading his orgainzation which HAD been attacking our country, that would be bin Laden, NOT SADDAM.

Any other remarks I made, were remarks I would not have made, had I known that Bush and Cheney were lying their asses off. Don't twist my words, into a view I would never have taken, had I known that Bush and Cheney were in the midst of committing TREASON, by LYING us into a war. No amount of quoting people, who at the time did not know of the Bush/cheney LIES, should be used as any proof that they supported that invasion. We were ALL lied to.

</span>

That's something everyone agreed on, even long before Bush was even in office.

<span style="color: #990000">THAT IS NOT TRUE!!!!

NOT ME! IIRC, my view had been all along, that I would NEVER VOTE FOR A REPUBLICAN, BECAUSE I had watched them prop up evil dictators for decades, Reagan, and both Bush's. So I have no idea who your, "Everybody" would be, but it surely wasn't me, and it surely was not our intelligence agencies, nor Bill Clinton, nor Colin Powell, nor a slew of other experts in the field.</span>



I supported it too, for the same reasons you did.

<span style="color: #990000"><span style='font-size: 14pt'>I did not support it. Stop taking my words out of context! If everyone had been in support of such a stupid policy, they wouldn't have had to LIE us into it!</span> </span>


Knowing things we know now, I would not support HOW we got there and the excuses used to do it.

<span style="color: #CC0000">EXCUSES? LMAO! Is THAT what we're calliong them now, Excuses? What a crocdk of total $**T! </span>
But I do still believe the removal of Sadaam was necessary at some point regardless. And I know you do too.

<span style="color: #660000">Look, Sack, This is getting impossible. I never made any comments, nor had any view, about Saddam, before 9/11, except that I was disgusted with watching Republican Presidents, propping up evil people, for the sake of OIL PIGS!

I have been against pollution since Jimmy Carter was in office, and my most pervasive view, since then, has been to remove our dependence on oil, and use R & D, for solar, and development of other forms of energy.

Again, I think I know more about my values over the last forty years, than you do, so stop tiwsting what they were. I have been against WAR, all along, and I was AGAINST VIETNAM, and I am absolutely not in favor of "Pre-emptive War" and particularly when the entire case is built on a liar named "Curveball" So don't lump my views, in with your views, mine were quite differenct from yours. </span>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let me ask you a question...</div></div>

I've answered quite a few of your questions now. How about you answer my simple on that I have asked at least twice thus far?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And NO, you didn't prove a damn thing.</div></div>

OK, if you say so fine. I used the numbers that are right there. Disprove what I said if I am wrong. Mathematical error? Misinterpretation of funding, costs, etc? Certainly all possibilities where I could err. Just tell me where and how I did make a mistake on what I said. But surely you can do better than the above quote to tell me if I am wrong.


<span style="color: #660000">I will post another post, after this one, which will show you where you are wrong about everything you've written.

You are not factoring in the very statements made by those who don't agree with your, "Numbers" and your stunningly ignorant take on the whole issue, including the need for the High Speed Rail, and your supposed, short range, and long range, view of costs.

This money to build, comes from stimulus money, and private money, to use for a project that will create jobs, which our country, desperately needs, at this time.

AND as usual, your failure is always in the same area, UNDER THE CONDITIONS PREVAILING! And right now, Jobs, and investments, are the most important path out of Bush's Recession.

Which is exactly why, as always, I am against what Republicans are doing, and I fully believe they WANT MORE UNEMPLOYMENT, because they think that will remove this president from office. </span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The fact is, Floridians WANT that super railway... </div></div>

And yet you'll also say he's declining for political purposes. Last I checked, politicians who do things solely for political gain do things that their people want... not the other way around.

<span style="color: #660000">I think it's pretty obvious that his supporters, and that is if he still has any left, don't know what they want, but many others in his state, and Republicans in the legislature, are not supporting his decision.

He's doing what all REPUBLICANS do, supporting the Looney Tunes, which is how we got into this mess, beginning with REAGAN! </span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">because it will raise loads of revenue in their state, by increasing revenue from tourism, not to mention jobs! </div></div>

temporary jobs.

<span style="color: #660000"> SO WHAT!!!! Any jobs will do at this time. </span>


Perhaps a temporary bump in tourism even. But I'm sorry, people aren't gonna suddenly choose FL as their vacation destination just to ride a train once the new wears off.

<span style="color: #990000">Stunning ignorance of the entire situation....Well now, IMO, that's got to be one of your more ignorant positions. AND it proves that you know very little about the situation which many floridians face, daily, because of that mess, trying to get from one side of the state, to the other, and how much gas is wasted, sitting in back ups, and how much MORE money would be spent by travelers, if accessing both coasts, in a zoom, was possible. This has been years in the making, and Floridians WANT it because it will help them out of a horrendous traffic jam, that goes on and on.

And I am not going to waste my time trying to explain it to you, because you have already decided that JOBS NOW, are not the most important part of this, so that tells me right there, that you are not looking at the situation, UNDER THE CONDITIONS PREVAILING.

NOTHING, is more important right now, than jobs, investing in education, research and development, clean renewable fuels, AND GETTING OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST!

Throwing more people into econoomic stress, so that more Corporations can get more subsidies, and get out of paying taxes, through loopholes, while hiding their cash offshore, is far more damaging to the economy, than creating temporary jobs, which in fact, in the case of the railway, would not be all temporary. </span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But that's fine, there are plenty of progressives in the North East, who will be more than glad to take what this idiot in Florida, turned down. Floridians are working now to recall the governor, and those who supported him, are not even behind his overreaching actions, not even STATE REPUBLICANS... </div></div>

Good, they can have it. Floridians will be upset now, whoever takes it will be happy now. In a decade when it becomes a liability and an addition to state deficit I'm sure emotions will be reversed on that.

<span style="color: #660000">In a decade, when climate change becomes undeniable, and when the people who think a man can live inside of a whale, begin to realize that denying science, was the wrong thing to do, we'll talk about it again...I don't agree at all with your views, as usual. WE need MORE High Speed Rail, now more than ever. The OIL CARTEL in the Middle East, AND HERE, has us by the ASS! Do you think Oil is never going to run out? You are nit pickeing, cherry picking, and overlooking the broad realities of energy!

I usually don't agree with people who are pushing for, or believing in, the "End Times" and frankly IMO, they are one of our greates problems in this country. I'll let Bill speak for me on that one, lol. </span>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic9qMZpmc-I&feature=related





<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An HOUR TO DRIVE IT, LMAO! NEVER!</div></div>

85 mile distance at 85mph disproves that "never" theory.

<span style="color: #660000"> BWA HA HA HA! What a crock. The more you write, the more you are proving your ignorance about that highway! </span>

Granted, rare... but doable and done.

<span style="color: #660000"> Ha ha ha....prove it. As I said, MAYBE, and that's a very strong MAYBE, at three in the morning, driving like a maniac, and you obviously have no clue about working people, who have to face that mess everyday, nor do you factor in the fuel issues....you're cherry picking. </span>


Not that it matters, be it an hour, an hour and a half, two hours... hell lets make a huge traffic jam and call it three... my original point on that is still the exact same


<span style="color: #660000"> Then you original point, is Cherry picking, and does not factor in all of the issues involved! I'd like to know what happened to all of these REPIGLICANS, who ran on the BS, that they were going to LISTEN to The AMerican People. So far, I'm seeing more protesting than EVER! Fliridians are pushing for recalls, and I'd say, they know more about how much they needd that High Speed Rail, than either of us. </span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And your statement, comparing Clinton, and my vote, is absurd.</div></div>

That was kind of the point I was trying to make!

<span style="color: #660000"> [b]AND it's a straw man. Clinton didn't commit Treason, over and over again. Clinton did NOT lie our country into an un-necessary WAR. Clinton did NOT politicize the entire Department Of Justice. Clinton did BREAK the BANK! REpiglicans and BUSH did all of that, and NO, Clinton NEVER APPROVED TORTURE, That is a lie.b] </span>
Just as it is absurd to imply that because I voted for Bush in 2000 and I am a conservative that it somehow makes me a torture supporting, women right denying, gay bashing homophobic (among many other things you said). I'm glad you see how absurd that is.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Clinton was never for torture!</div></div>

Yeah, I'm sure his use of extraordinary rendition was usually just for a friendly chat over coffee. He sent people to Egypt... nobody is ever tortured there /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Sack </div></div>


<span style="color: #660000">Again, you are quite wrong. When Clinton used rendition, it was with the strict understanding, with the countries, who took prisoners, that the Geneva conventions were to be honored. Bill Clinton, NEVER used, nor promoted, TORTURE! Just the opposite. NO TORTURE!

G.</span>

JohnnyD
03-02-2011, 08:31 AM
You may condense at anytime.

Sev
03-02-2011, 09:32 AM
Its like a whippoorwills behind. It never stops running.

JohnnyD
03-02-2011, 11:14 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its like a whippoorwills behind. It never stops running. </div></div>Ohh my!

JohnnyD
03-02-2011, 11:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its like a whippoorwills behind. It never stops running. </div></div>
But is it like WATERLOO WATERLOO ?

JohnnyD
03-02-2011, 11:22 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its like a whippoorwills behind. It never stops running. </div></div>
Hear that lonesome whippoorwill,he sounds too blue to fly.
Hank Williams sr.
Jesus loves you
Brought to you by JohnnyD

JohnnyD
03-02-2011, 12:43 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> IF you need help in finding the truth LWW will give his assistance.</div></div>

LMFAO...........LOL

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>Right there you just lost all credibility.</span>

What you lost <u>wasn't much but it was all you had.</u>

You sound so much like him you could almost BE him.

Q..............I guess you are just cursed. </div></div>I am a good judge of talent.

Gayle in MD
03-02-2011, 12:55 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
No, I did not! We went through this already! The truth is that no one was told the truth, and had Bush not lied to us, no one would have even given him the benefit of the doubt, in the midst of our collective national grief, so don't say that again. It is a straw man argument.</div></div>

Yes, and under the guise of what was said at the time, you supported it. And you also said at various points that Sadaam had to go. That's something everyone agreed on, even long before Bush was even in office. I supported it too, for the same reasons you did. Knowing things we know now, I would not support HOW we got there and the excuses used to do it. But I do still believe the removal of Sadaam was necessary at some point regardless. And I know you do too.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let me ask you a question...</div></div>

I've answered quite a few of your questions now. How about you answer my simple on that I have asked at least twice thus far?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And NO, you didn't prove a damn thing.</div></div>

OK, if you say so fine. I used the numbers that are right there. Disprove what I said if I am wrong. Mathematical error? Misinterpretation of funding, costs, etc? Certainly all possibilities where I could err. Just tell me where and how I did make a mistake on what I said. But surely you can do better than the above quote to tell me if I am wrong.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The fact is, Floridians WANT that super railway... </div></div>

And yet you'll also say he's declining for political purposes. Last I checked, politicians who do things solely for political gain do things that their people want... not the other way around.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">because it will raise loads of revenue in their state, by increasing revenue from tourism, not to mention jobs! </div></div>

temporary jobs. Perhaps a temporary bump in tourism even. But I'm sorry, people aren't gonna suddenly choose FL as their vacation destination just to ride a train once the new wears off.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But that's fine, there are plenty of progressives in the North East, who will be more than glad to take what this idiot in Florida, turned down. Floridians are working now to recall the governor, and those who support him... I wish them well.</div></div>

Good, they can have it. Floridians will be upset now, whoever takes it will be happy now. In a decade when it becomes a liability and an addition to state deficit I'm sure emotions will be reversed on that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An HOUR TO DRIVE IT, LMAO! NEVER!</div></div>

85 mile distance at 85mph disproves that "never" theory. Granted, rare... but doable and done. Not that it matters, be it an hour, an hour and a half, two hours... hell lets make a huge traffic jam and call it three... my original point on that is still the exact same

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And your statement, comparing Clinton, and my vote, is absurd.</div></div>

That was kind of the point I was trying to make! Just as it is absurd to imply that because I voted for Bush in 2000 and I am a conservative that it somehow makes me a torture supporting, women right denying, gay bashing homophobic (among many other things you said). I'm glad you see how absurd that is.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Clinton was never for torture!</div></div>

Yeah, I'm sure his use of extraordinary rendition was usually just for a friendly chat over coffee. He sent people to Egypt... nobody is ever tortured there /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Sack </div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style='font-size: 14pt'> <span style='font-size: 17pt'>Florida Governor Rick Scott: Sanford, Minus Sex Scandal
By Tim Padgett Monday, Feb. 28, 2011 </span>


</span> </div></div>

<span style='font-size: 14pt'> Florida Governor Rick Scott gives off a wide-eyed glow of certainty about everything he does. The Tea Party Republican has worn it from the moment he took office on Jan. 4, and since then he's rankled even conservatives in his own party with his imperious style. In his first eight weeks, he's put forth a budget proposal that slashes education spending — an area in which low-wage, low-tech Florida can't really afford to scrimp — by 15%; put the kibosh on a high-speed-rail project, funded with federal and private dollars, that could have created up to 30,000 jobs; campaigned to repeal a prescription-drug-monitoring law in a state where seven people die each day from an overdose; and pressed to kill two amendments that Floridians passed last November to curb the reckless gerrymandering of their legislative districts. (See souvenirs from a Tea Party rally.)

But as much as Scott would like to think he's revolutionizing government, it's best to remember that we already saw this movie not so long ago, starring former South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford — and the ending wasn't pretty. Long before "hiking the Appalachian Trail" became the media's favorite euphemism for Sanford's clandestine meetings with his Argentine mistress, the Palmetto State's chief executive was a conservative who, like Scott, was so convinced of his government-reduction dogma that he believed he could disregard his state legislature and the fellow Republicans who controlled it. And while he'll be remembered for the sex scandal, in many ways Sanford's lasting legacy will be the thwarted economic development of one of the nation's poorest states. He repeatedly vetoed trade centers and tourism-marketing initiatives, he left the public schools about as decrepit as he found them, and his miserly effort to lure a $500 million Airbus plant to South Carolina was widely blamed for the loss of that bid. (See pictures of the budget showdown in Wisconsin.)

Like Sanford, the multimillionaire Scott is a fan of my-way-or-the-highway gestures. Florida's legislature, like most in the U.S., is hardly a heroic institution. But it was generally lauded in 2009 <span style='font-size: 20pt'>when, realizing Florida had become a national leader in prescription-drug abuse — overdose deaths from the painkiller oxycodone alone had more than doubled that year, to 1,185 — it voted to create a database to detect illicit prescriptions and crack down on "pill mills." The database was set to begin operation this year, and it looked all the more necessary in late February when the feds raided numerous clinics in South Florida and arrested 20 people, including five doctors. </span><span style='font-size: 20pt'>But Scott has vowed to repeal the measure and has already eliminated the state's Office of Drug Control, which was supposed to help manage the database. One reason, he says, is that the database is too costly — even though its budget is just $1.2 million, and even that is being picked up by federal grants and private donations. Scott — who in 1997 resigned under a cloud as CEO of Columbia/HCA, the world's largest hospital corporation, when it was busted for massive Medicare fraud (although he wasn't charged personally) — calls the database an invasion of privacy, despite the fact that few such concerns have been raised in the 34 other states that have similar monitoring systems. "I'm extremely, extremely disappointed in the governor," GOP state senator Mike Fasano, who sponsored the legislation, said. </span><span style='font-size: 14pt'>Fasano isn't the only Sunshine State Republican who is fuming. State-senate budget chairman J.D. Alexander told Scott that the governor violated Florida law recently when he sold two state airplanes and redirected the sale proceeds without consulting the legislature. Although Alexander had supported selling the aircraft, he scolded Scott in a letter for "not respecting the Legislature's constitutional duty." Scott says his counsel told him the unilateral move was legal, but Alexander appears to have the state constitution on his side.</span> (See "40 Under 40: The Rising Stars of American Politics.")

<span style='font-size: 17pt'><span style='font-size: 20pt'>But few actions have angered Florida pols in both parties more than Scott's February rejection of $2.4 billion in federal stimulus money for a $2.7 billion high-speed rail line between Tampa and Orlando</span>.</span> <span style='font-size: 26pt'>It would have been the first component in a proposed bullet-train system to alleviate traffic woes on Florida's long, car-clogged peninsula, not to mention a local incubator for the sorely needed high-tech enterprise. The GOP-led state legislature had spent the past two years laboring to win the federal funds, which the Obama Administration may now hand off to California. But Scott, who made clear his contempt for all things public sector during his campaign last year, called it a wasteful project that would end up putting "state taxpayers on the hook" despite the federal largesse. Two-thirds of Florida's 40 state senators rebuked him — most of them Republicans — including the senate majority leader. </span><span style='font-size: 17pt'>
Scott refused to budge, even when federal and Florida officials hammered out a revised plan of<span style='font-size: 26pt'> private-sector and local-government initiatives that guaranteed to keep the state off the hook</span>.</span> <span style='font-size: 17pt'><span style='font-size: 26pt'>U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood gave the governor until the end of Friday, March 4, to change his mind; if he doesn't, some GOP state legislators say they're mulling whether to sue him for "exceeding his executive authority." </span></span>
Scott's Sanfordesque disdain for the legislature also seems to extend to the electorate. In last November's midterm elections, more than 60% of the Sunshine State's voters approved two amendments requiring that their state and federal legislative districts be drawn on a nonpartisan basis. It was an especially important ballot measure, since Florida, the U.S.'s fourth most populous state, gained two congressional seats in the 2010 census (giving it 27), and many of those districts are absurdly contorted, having been designed to assure both parties virtually guaranteed seats. (Comment on this story.)

Because any voting measure like that requires federal review, Scott's predecessor, former governor Charlie Crist, sent the antigerrymandering amendments to the Justice Department last year before leaving office. But Scott, with no explanation, almost immediately withdrew them from consideration when he took office. Even Fasano, who like many Republicans opposed the nonpartisan redistricting scheme, was disturbed by the high-handed move and has urged Scott to respect the majority in favor of the amendments — a majority that Scott, who was elected with only 48.9% of the vote, couldn't muster himself.

Still, perhaps it's not such a surprise that Scott dislikes the amendments. Their intent, after all, is to make elections more competitive by making politicians engage a more diverse cross-section of voters — and that agenda threatens the polarized, hyperpartisan environment that favors the likes of Scott. And Mark Sanford.



</span>

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,2055767,00.html?xid=huffpo-direct


<span style="color: #CC0000"> <span style='font-size: 20pt'>No Traffic Problems? Doable in an HOUR? LMAO! Not so much! </span> </span>

JohnnyD
03-02-2011, 01:31 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
No, I did not! We went through this already! The truth is that no one was told the truth, and had Bush not lied to us, no one would have even given him the benefit of the doubt, in the midst of our collective national grief, so don't say that again. It is a straw man argument.</div></div>

Yes, and under the guise of what was said at the time, you supported it. And you also said at various points that Sadaam had to go. That's something everyone agreed on, even long before Bush was even in office. I supported it too, for the same reasons you did. Knowing things we know now, I would not support HOW we got there and the excuses used to do it. But I do still believe the removal of Sadaam was necessary at some point regardless. And I know you do too.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let me ask you a question...</div></div>

I've answered quite a few of your questions now. How about you answer my simple on that I have asked at least twice thus far?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And NO, you didn't prove a damn thing.</div></div>

OK, if you say so fine. I used the numbers that are right there. Disprove what I said if I am wrong. Mathematical error? Misinterpretation of funding, costs, etc? Certainly all possibilities where I could err. Just tell me where and how I did make a mistake on what I said. But surely you can do better than the above quote to tell me if I am wrong.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The fact is, Floridians WANT that super railway... </div></div>

And yet you'll also say he's declining for political purposes. Last I checked, politicians who do things solely for political gain do things that their people want... not the other way around.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">because it will raise loads of revenue in their state, by increasing revenue from tourism, not to mention jobs! </div></div>

temporary jobs. Perhaps a temporary bump in tourism even. But I'm sorry, people aren't gonna suddenly choose FL as their vacation destination just to ride a train once the new wears off.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But that's fine, there are plenty of progressives in the North East, who will be more than glad to take what this idiot in Florida, turned down. Floridians are working now to recall the governor, and those who support him... I wish them well.</div></div>

Good, they can have it. Floridians will be upset now, whoever takes it will be happy now. In a decade when it becomes a liability and an addition to state deficit I'm sure emotions will be reversed on that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An HOUR TO DRIVE IT, LMAO! NEVER!</div></div>

85 mile distance at 85mph disproves that "never" theory. Granted, rare... but doable and done. Not that it matters, be it an hour, an hour and a half, two hours... hell lets make a huge traffic jam and call it three... my original point on that is still the exact same

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And your statement, comparing Clinton, and my vote, is absurd.</div></div>

That was kind of the point I was trying to make! Just as it is absurd to imply that because I voted for Bush in 2000 and I am a conservative that it somehow makes me a torture supporting, women right denying, gay bashing homophobic (among many other things you said). I'm glad you see how absurd that is.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Clinton was never for torture!</div></div>

Yeah, I'm sure his use of extraordinary rendition was usually just for a friendly chat over coffee. He sent people to Egypt... nobody is ever tortured there /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Sack </div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style='font-size: 14pt'> <span style='font-size: 17pt'>Florida Governor Rick Scott: Sanford, Minus Sex Scandal
By Tim Padgett Monday, Feb. 28, 2011 </span>


</span> </div></div>

<span style='font-size: 14pt'> Florida Governor Rick Scott gives off a wide-eyed glow of certainty about everything he does. The Tea Party Republican has worn it from the moment he took office on Jan. 4, and since then he's rankled even conservatives in his own party with his imperious style. In his first eight weeks, he's put forth a budget proposal that slashes education spending — an area in which low-wage, low-tech Florida can't really afford to scrimp — by 15%; put the kibosh on a high-speed-rail project, funded with federal and private dollars, that could have created up to 30,000 jobs; campaigned to repeal a prescription-drug-monitoring law in a state where seven people die each day from an overdose; and pressed to kill two amendments that Floridians passed last November to curb the reckless gerrymandering of their legislative districts. (See souvenirs from a Tea Party rally.)

But as much as Scott would like to think he's revolutionizing government, it's best to remember that we already saw this movie not so long ago, starring former South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford — and the ending wasn't pretty. Long before "hiking the Appalachian Trail" became the media's favorite euphemism for Sanford's clandestine meetings with his Argentine mistress, the Palmetto State's chief executive was a conservative who, like Scott, was so convinced of his government-reduction dogma that he believed he could disregard his state legislature and the fellow Republicans who controlled it. And while he'll be remembered for the sex scandal, in many ways Sanford's lasting legacy will be the thwarted economic development of one of the nation's poorest states. He repeatedly vetoed trade centers and tourism-marketing initiatives, he left the public schools about as decrepit as he found them, and his miserly effort to lure a $500 million Airbus plant to South Carolina was widely blamed for the loss of that bid. (See pictures of the budget showdown in Wisconsin.)

Like Sanford, the multimillionaire Scott is a fan of my-way-or-the-highway gestures. Florida's legislature, like most in the U.S., is hardly a heroic institution. But it was generally lauded in 2009 <span style='font-size: 20pt'>when, realizing Florida had become a national leader in prescription-drug abuse — overdose deaths from the painkiller oxycodone alone had more than doubled that year, to 1,185 — it voted to create a database to detect illicit prescriptions and crack down on "pill mills." The database was set to begin operation this year, and it looked all the more necessary in late February when the feds raided numerous clinics in South Florida and arrested 20 people, including five doctors. </span><span style='font-size: 20pt'>But Scott has vowed to repeal the measure and has already eliminated the state's Office of Drug Control, which was supposed to help manage the database. One reason, he says, is that the database is too costly — even though its budget is just $1.2 million, and even that is being picked up by federal grants and private donations. Scott — who in 1997 resigned under a cloud as CEO of Columbia/HCA, the world's largest hospital corporation, when it was busted for massive Medicare fraud (although he wasn't charged personally) — calls the database an invasion of privacy, despite the fact that few such concerns have been raised in the 34 other states that have similar monitoring systems. "I'm extremely, extremely disappointed in the governor," GOP state senator Mike Fasano, who sponsored the legislation, said. </span><span style='font-size: 14pt'>Fasano isn't the only Sunshine State Republican who is fuming. State-senate budget chairman J.D. Alexander told Scott that the governor violated Florida law recently when he sold two state airplanes and redirected the sale proceeds without consulting the legislature. Although Alexander had supported selling the aircraft, he scolded Scott in a letter for "not respecting the Legislature's constitutional duty." Scott says his counsel told him the unilateral move was legal, but Alexander appears to have the state constitution on his side.</span> (See "40 Under 40: The Rising Stars of American Politics.")

<span style='font-size: 17pt'><span style='font-size: 20pt'>But few actions have angered Florida pols in both parties more than Scott's February rejection of $2.4 billion in federal stimulus money for a $2.7 billion high-speed rail line between Tampa and Orlando</span>.</span> <span style='font-size: 26pt'>It would have been the first component in a proposed bullet-train system to alleviate traffic woes on Florida's long, car-clogged peninsula, not to mention a local incubator for the sorely needed high-tech enterprise. The GOP-led state legislature had spent the past two years laboring to win the federal funds, which the Obama Administration may now hand off to California. But Scott, who made clear his contempt for all things public sector during his campaign last year, called it a wasteful project that would end up putting "state taxpayers on the hook" despite the federal largesse. Two-thirds of Florida's 40 state senators rebuked him — most of them Republicans — including the senate majority leader. </span><span style='font-size: 17pt'>
Scott refused to budge, even when federal and Florida officials hammered out a revised plan of<span style='font-size: 26pt'> private-sector and local-government initiatives that guaranteed to keep the state off the hook</span>.</span> <span style='font-size: 17pt'><span style='font-size: 26pt'>U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood gave the governor until the end of Friday, March 4, to change his mind; if he doesn't, some GOP state legislators say they're mulling whether to sue him for "exceeding his executive authority." </span></span>
Scott's Sanfordesque disdain for the legislature also seems to extend to the electorate. In last November's midterm elections, more than 60% of the Sunshine State's voters approved two amendments requiring that their state and federal legislative districts be drawn on a nonpartisan basis. It was an especially important ballot measure, since Florida, the U.S.'s fourth most populous state, gained two congressional seats in the 2010 census (giving it 27), and many of those districts are absurdly contorted, having been designed to assure both parties virtually guaranteed seats. (Comment on this story.)

Because any voting measure like that requires federal review, Scott's predecessor, former governor Charlie Crist, sent the antigerrymandering amendments to the Justice Department last year before leaving office. But Scott, with no explanation, almost immediately withdrew them from consideration when he took office. Even Fasano, who like many Republicans opposed the nonpartisan redistricting scheme, was disturbed by the high-handed move and has urged Scott to respect the majority in favor of the amendments — a majority that Scott, who was elected with only 48.9% of the vote, couldn't muster himself.

Still, perhaps it's not such a surprise that Scott dislikes the amendments. Their intent, after all, is to make elections more competitive by making politicians engage a more diverse cross-section of voters — and that agenda threatens the polarized, hyperpartisan environment that favors the likes of Scott. And Mark Sanford.



</span>

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,2055767,00.html?xid=huffpo-direct


<span style="color: #CC0000"> <span style='font-size: 20pt'>No Traffic Problems? Doable in an HOUR? LMAO! Not so much! </span> </span> </div></div> Ohh my!Much bandwidth has been wasted.

sack316
03-02-2011, 05:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, you are quite wrong. When Clinton used rendition, it was with the strict understanding, with the countries, who took prisoners, that the Geneva conventions were to be honored. Bill Clinton, NEVER used, nor promoted, TORTURE! Just the opposite. NO TORTURE!

G. </div></div>

So Michael Scheuer lied to Congress?

Sorry I'm in a rush and can't reply to the rest right now, but just had to ask about that part.

Sack

LWW
03-02-2011, 05:32 PM
Don't expect a rational answer.

LWW

JohnnyD
03-02-2011, 09:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why do you avoid the issue </div></div>

<span style='font-size: 26pt'>What issue</span>........... you fake.

Can't wait.

Q </div></div>Why do you avoid the issue?Just answer in an adult manner.It appears at times that you can handle the truth work on handling it all the time.The truth will set you free.Only the truth will set you free.Do not wait for the truth.The truth will not come to you you must seek it.Seek the truth it will set you free.

LWW
03-03-2011, 02:45 AM
Just answer the question Snoopy.

LWW

sack316
03-03-2011, 06:27 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't expect a rational answer.

LWW </div></div>

It is quite alright if I don't get one. Although Gayle and I will disagree on most any topic, I admire her passion and candidness. She and I will fight tooth and nail over many things, but I will always respect her, regardless of what she may think of me.

Sack (that IS the Christian way)

Gayle in MD
03-03-2011, 07:31 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, you are quite wrong. When Clinton used rendition, it was with the strict understanding, with the countries, who took prisoners, that the Geneva conventions were to be honored. Bill Clinton, NEVER used, nor promoted, TORTURE! Just the opposite. NO TORTURE!

G. </div></div>

So Michael Scheuer lied to Congress?

Sorry I'm in a rush and can't reply to the rest right now, but just had to ask about that part.

Sack

</div></div>

My friend, let's not get Rendition, Extraordinary Rendition, and Approval of the use of torture, all mixed up together. Each can be different. Rendition with Presidential Directives on treatment, is not the same thing as Presidential Approval Of Torture. Only One president did that, which is why Human Rights organizations around the world, have only promised human rights indictments against those in the George W. Bush Administration.

Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush, all used Rendition. Clinton and Obama, both had task forces directives, to insure humane treatment, regardless of whom was sent, where....Neither has everr approved the use of torture.

Only ONE President, in our history, and only ONE Administration, has approved of using TORTURE, and that was George W. Bush's Administration.




http://www.prisonplanet.com/holder-says-he-approved-clinton-era-renditions.html

Under President George W. Bush, renditions became “extraordinary renditions,” in which suspects were handed over to nations where torture was not illegal. Rendition under Presidents Clinton and Obama has not been linked to torture.

http://www.truth-out.org/article/bill-clinton-warns-against-torture-approval

Holder has been, at least in public, an opponent of the torture program.

“Waterboarding is torture. My justice department will not justify it, will not rationalize it and will not condone it,” Holder said in a speech to the Jewish Council of Public Affairs in March.

“The use and sanction of torture is at odds with the history of American jurisprudence and American values. It undermines our ability to pursue justice fairly, and it puts our own brave soldiers in peril should they ever be captured on a foreign battlefield.”

Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi was briefed in 2002 on the torture tactics the Bush administration wanted to use against terror war prisoners. At the time, she did not object. In April of 2009, she denied knowing the techniques would ever be applied to prisoners.

“[They] did not tell us they were using that,” she said. “Flat out. And any — any contention to the contrary is simply not true.”

RAW STORY was the first news outlet to identify the exact location of one of the sites in the CIA’s secret prison network, used in conjunction with Bush-era extraordinary renditions. RAW STORY identified a prison in northeastern Poland, Stare Kiejkuty, that was used as a transit point for terror suspects.

According to filings, the CIA has over 7,000 documents related to Bush-era renditions.

Attorney General Eric Holder has said that “no one is above the law” and that his office would “follow the evidence.” He has not appointed a special prosecutor.





http://www.truth-out.org/article/bill-clinton-warns-against-torture-approval
Bill Clinton Warns Against Torture Approval
by: |

Bill Clinton Warns Against Torture Approval
By Randall Mikkelsen
Reuters

Thursday 21 September 2006

Washington - Former U.S. President Bill Clinton joined a chorus of critics of Bush administration proposals for treating suspected terrorists, saying it would be unnecessary and wrong to give broad approval to torture.

In an interview with National Public Radio aired on Thursday, Clinton said any decision to use harsh treatment in interrogating suspects should be subject to court review.

"You don't need blanket advance approval for blanket torture," Clinton said.

Clinton was president during the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and attacks on U.S. embassies in Tanzania and Kenya and on the USS Cole, all linked to al Qaeda. Critics accused him of doing too little to contain a growing threat of terrorism.

Clinton's successor, President George W. Bush, wants Congress to narrowly define prisoner protections under the Geneva Conventions and allow a program of CIA interrogations and detentions that critics have said amount to torture.

The White House denies the program involves torture. The U.S. Supreme Court in June struck down Bush's original plan.

Clinton warned against circumventing international standards on prisoner treatment, citing U.S. abuses at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, criticism of treatment at the Guantanamo Bay prison for suspected terrorists and a secret CIA prison system outside the United States.

"The president says he's just trying to get the rules clear about how far the CIA can go when they're when they whacking these people around in these secret prisons," Clinton said in NPR's "Morning Edition" interview, recorded on Wednesday.

"If you go around passing laws that legitimize a violation of the Geneva Convention and institutionalize what happened at Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo, we're going to be in real trouble," he said.

Like other critics, he said information obtained with harsh treatment may be unreliable and adopting abusive practices could lead to captured U.S. troops being subjected to the same.

Even if there were circumstances where such treatment is necessary to prevent an imminent attacks, Clinton said: "You don't make laws based on that. You don't sit there and say in general torture's fine if you're a terrorist suspect. For one thing, we know we have erred in who was a real suspect."


G.

Gayle in MD
03-03-2011, 07:33 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't expect a rational answer.

LWW </div></div>

It is quite alright if I don't get one. Although Gayle and I will disagree on most any topic, I admire her passion and candidness. She and I will fight tooth and nail over many things, but I will always respect her, regardless of what she may think of me.

Sack (that IS the Christian way) </div></div>

I will always respect you, and you know that...friends forever...

G. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

ugotda7
03-09-2011, 01:41 PM
Blah.......

JohnnyD
03-09-2011, 05:08 PM
Excellent post.The truth will set them free.

Gayle in MD
03-10-2011, 12:50 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, you are quite wrong. When Clinton used rendition, it was with the strict understanding, with the countries, who took prisoners, that the Geneva conventions were to be honored. Bill Clinton, NEVER used, nor promoted, TORTURE! Just the opposite. NO TORTURE!

G. </div></div>

So Michael Scheuer lied to Congress?

Sorry I'm in a rush and can't reply to the rest right now, but just had to ask about that part.

Sack

</div></div>

Michael Scheuer???? LMAO! You can't possibly be that uninformed!

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif