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View Full Version : As unions go, so goes the middle class



Qtec
03-04-2011, 10:26 PM
http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/unionincome.jpg

link (http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2011/01/20/report-incomes/)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Income Gaps Between Very Rich and Everyone Else More Than Tripled In Last Three Decades, New Data Show </div></div>

http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms//6-25-10inc-f1.jpg

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As Ed Schultz rightly pointed out on his show tonight, if you're not a member of a union and you don't think union membership has anything to do with your own economic prosperity, think again. As unions go, so goes the middle class in America. </div></div>

link (http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/ed-schultz-economic-state-middle-class-tie)

Q

sack316
03-05-2011, 06:36 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/unionincome.jpg

</div></div>

That graph looks SOOOO much different when it is to scale. But I do appreciate the dramatic effect of a 2:5 ratio it uses for each variable.

Cute attempt. I also drew a graph, it shows the dramatic increase in divorce rates over this time frame. I suppose I could also hypothesize that as divorce rates go up, BOTH union membership and middle class share of national income decline. Stick all 3 lines on my graph and it must mean it relates!

Hmmm... come to think of it, it actually might. I'll have to look into that.

Anyway, for now look at a graph 1:1 scale and the blue line isn't nearly as dramatic.

Sack

Sev
03-05-2011, 06:41 PM
Hmmmm. Unions are only 12 of the work force with the majority of the members being in the public sector.

I think a better graph would be one representing the loss of industry vs the middle class.

sack316
03-05-2011, 06:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmmm. Unions are only 12 of the work force with the majority of the members being in the public sector.

I think a better graph would be one representing the loss of industry vs the middle class. </div></div>

That would probably provide a much better correlation, but unfortunately that's not the hot button topic right now lol.

Also interesting would be loss of industry compared with declining union membership. Then we'd get to debate over who killed who! Did losing industry kill unions? Did unions kill off industry? Was it Colonel Mustard in the study with a candlestick?

Sack

Sev
03-05-2011, 06:57 PM
Or the dwarf hunch back in the dumb waiter?

Have fun sack.

wolfdancer
03-05-2011, 07:18 PM
Q, as part of my studies, in a two year program I attended in Baltimore, we had a course titled "the history of labor".
I've mentioned it before, along with The Triangle Shirt Factory fire, the Colorado Mine massacre, the "bloody SF waterfront strike", the Pullman strike, the Dearborn,Mi (Ford) strike.....the coal mine strikes....etc. No need to repeat them...one could also dig up many instances of Union violence....like when they deregulated the trucking industry, and independent owner/operators were attacked.
I'm proud of my union involvement, both as a member, and a union Rep. My union pension allows me to live a modest lifestyle, instead of having to "sing for my supper", at the local rescue mission. I have belonged to many unions in my working days, including one, the IBEW, that had some communist ties in it's past.
WE owe the 8 hr work day, the 10 minute breaks, and in some cases, a paid lunch "hour", paid vacations, and sick leave...to union negotiated contracts.
That some now want American labor to compete with and earn the same wages, and have the working conditions as in India, China, and the Philippines....there goes, for the most part...the middle class. There goes the housing market, as well, and the auto industry...who could buy cars on min wages?
And in the end we would have labor camps, and two stores ...Wal-Mart East, and Wal-Mart West, or company owned stores, as
Ernie Ford's great song "16 Tons" mentioned:..
"I owe my soul to the company store"
signed: a retired Teamster

sack316
03-05-2011, 07:22 PM
A belated welcome back to you my friend! Good to see you again!

Sack

wolfdancer
03-05-2011, 07:37 PM
Thanks Sack !!!
Hope you are holding an ace, or joker, face down, and
not drawing to any inside straights ...a 9% chance, according to the odds.....
"you got to know when to fold em".....
In my short lived poker career....I didn't even know when to hold em

llotter
03-05-2011, 08:58 PM
Unionism is just communism by another name, touting the group over the individual, group rights over individual rights. Unions, via their influence over politicians, often paid for by the taxpayers, have ruined our ability to compete in the world, resulting in decreased opportunity and increased poverty.

Unions exist at the direct expense of non-union citizens who are forced to pay the high prices that those extravagant contracts demand. They can only achieve those contracts because their industry is protected from competition and unions can threaten private business with bankruptcy. It doesn't take much thought to understand that if unions were generally beneficial then everyone would be in a union, if not by choice, then by law. But the obvious consequence would be general price increases, not to mention loss of freedom.

All of those so-called union successes over the years would have happened anyway as standards of living rose under capitalism. Utopianism is a Sirens Song and should be resisted, much like the admonition of Franklin that people should not sacrifice freedom for security or they will end up with neither.

wolfdancer
03-05-2011, 09:23 PM
It is your right here to disagree, and most here would agree with you, however, it's also my right to not buy into your ideas...(I'll have to check on that......)
Isn't our country great....as Bob Dylan sang "imagine me working for you"
I hope you won't be following my posts, although it is sort of flattering......
XXX (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJACFMc-Rb4&feature=player_detailpage)

sack316
03-06-2011, 01:32 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Sack !!!
Hope you are holding an ace, or joker, face down, and
not drawing to any inside straights ...a 9% chance, according to the odds.....
"you got to know when to fold em".....
In my short lived poker career....I didn't even know when to hold em </div></div>

Well I'm still on hiatus until I finish school. Though very tempting to play again because I'm in need of the income... but I told myself I'd hang it up until I got my bachelors (actually completed my requirements for one, and have 2 more classes in the summer for the other). So soon I'll be back!

And your inside straight is 9% on the river, it's actually about 16.5% after the flop if you feel like chasing and get really good pot odds to do so (assuming the 4 outs you have are 'sure' outs) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

But more important than what I'm holding is what the other guy is holding... and more important than that is what the other guy thinks I'm holding. Or is it what I think he thinks I'm making him think I think someone is holding? I forget... been sitting out for a while /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Sack

LWW
03-06-2011, 02:54 AM
Excellent post.

LWW

LWW
03-06-2011, 02:55 AM
You are holding the bar far too high for the left to clear ... especially MSNBC.

LWW

Qtec
03-06-2011, 03:44 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stick all 3 lines on my graph and it<u> must mean</u> it relates! </div></div>

No, but it might.
100,000s of people losing their job, being unemployed for long stretches and possibly losing their house as well, might so stressful as to have an effect on married couples.

What if you add the second graph to the first?
The shift in wealth shows that there is a direct correlation between the demise of the unions and the rich getting richer and the rest treading water or falling behind.

Q

LWW
03-06-2011, 03:54 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The shift in wealth shows that there is a direct correlation between the demise of the unions and the rich getting richer and the rest treading water or falling behind.

Q </div></div>

NO, it doesn't.

I know this because I can read.

What your data shows is that the rich are getting richer faster than the poor are getting richer, and that everyone is getting richer.

You have no data showing that anyone is getting poorer.

LWW

Qtec
03-06-2011, 04:00 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That some now want American labor to compete with and earn the same wages, and have the working conditions as in India, China, and the Philippines....there goes, for the most part...the middle class. There goes the housing market, as well, and the auto industry...who could buy cars on min wages?
And in the end we would have labor camps, and two stores ...Wal-Mart East, and Wal-Mart West, </div></div>

Bingo. Spot on.

What they want is Great Britain in the 1930,s. A ruling class and the rest are plebs who should be grateful for the crumbs that fall off the table.

You will like this. LOL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 17pt'>Texas immigration bill has big exception</span> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

(CNN) -- Amid a number of bills filed in Texas that address the issue of illegal immigration, one, proposed by Republican state Rep. Debbie Riddle, stands out.

As proposed, House Bill 1202 would create tough state punishments for those who "intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly" hire an unauthorized immigrant. <span style='font-size: 20pt'>Violators could face up to two years in jail and a fine of up to $10,000.</span> </div></div>

Well, no surprise there, eh?

It gets SOOOOOOOOOOO much better. Enter republican hypocricy..LOL..this it too good...LMAO


Wait for it.




















<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But it is an exception included in the bill that is drawing attention. Those who hire unauthorized immigrants would be in violation of the law -- <span style='font-size: 26pt'>unless they are hiring a maid, a lawn caretaker or another houseworker. </span></div></div>



/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif


link (http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/03/01/texas.immigration.bill/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn)



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Texas state Rep. Aaron Pena, a Republican, said the exception is a wise one.

<span style='font-size: 20pt'>"With things as they are today, her bill will see a large segment of the Texas population in prison" if it passes without the exception, he said.</span>

"When it comes to household employees or yard workers it is extremely common for Texans to hire people who are likely undocumented workers," Pena said. "It is so common it is overlooked." </div></div>


Do these people realise what they are saying?

Q

LWW
03-06-2011, 04:08 AM
Your inability to understand things never ceases to amaze me.

When one hires a maid, or a gardener, or a house worker one typically calls an agency and assumes the agency has properly vetted the "EMPLOYEE" ... but, you continue lapping up the spoon fed nonsense.

I have come to expect nothing less.

Next misinterpreted nonsensical point you would like slapped down?

LWW

Gayle in MD
03-07-2011, 09:43 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/unionincome.jpg

</div></div>

That graph looks SOOOO much different when it is to scale. But I do appreciate the dramatic effect of a 2:5 ratio it uses for each variable.

Cute attempt. I also drew a graph, it shows the dramatic increase in divorce rates over this time frame. I suppose I could also hypothesize that as divorce rates go up, BOTH union membership and middle class share of national income decline. Stick all 3 lines on my graph and it must mean it relates!

Hmmm... come to think of it, it actually might. I'll have to look into that.

Anyway, for now look at a graph 1:1 scale and the blue line isn't nearly as dramatic.

Sack </div></div>

While your re-creating the graph, make sure you locate the area of the country where divorce is the highest per capita.

G.

Gayle in MD
03-07-2011, 09:44 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmmm. Unions are only 12 of the work force with the majority of the members being in the public sector.

I think a better graph would be one representing the loss of industry vs the middle class. </div></div>

That would probably provide a much better correlation, but unfortunately that's not the hot button topic right now lol.

Also interesting would be loss of industry compared with declining union membership. Then we'd get to debate over who killed who! Did losing industry kill unions? Did unions kill off industry? Was it Colonel Mustard in the study with a candlestick?

Sack </div></div>

Do you really think that Unions are behind corporations moving to other countries, rather than being able to exploit slave labor???

G.

Gayle in MD
03-07-2011, 09:47 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That some now want American labor to compete with and earn the same wages, and have the working conditions as in India, China, and the Philippines....there goes, for the most part...the middle class. There goes the housing market, as well, and the auto industry...who could buy cars on min wages?
And in the end we would have labor camps, and two stores ...Wal-Mart East, and Wal-Mart West, </div></div>

Bingo. Spot on.

What they want is Great Britain in the 1930,s. A ruling class and the rest are plebs who should be grateful for the crumbs that fall off the table.

You will like this. LOL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 17pt'>Texas immigration bill has big exception</span> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

(CNN) -- Amid a number of bills filed in Texas that address the issue of illegal immigration, one, proposed by Republican state Rep. Debbie Riddle, stands out.

As proposed, House Bill 1202 would create tough state punishments for those who "intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly" hire an unauthorized immigrant. <span style='font-size: 20pt'>Violators could face up to two years in jail and a fine of up to $10,000.</span> </div></div>

Well, no surprise there, eh?

It gets SOOOOOOOOOOO much better. Enter republican hypocricy..LOL..this it too good...LMAO


Wait for it.




















<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But it is an exception included in the bill that is drawing attention. Those who hire unauthorized immigrants would be in violation of the law -- <span style='font-size: 26pt'>unless they are hiring a maid, a lawn caretaker or another houseworker. </span></div></div>



/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif


link (http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/03/01/texas.immigration.bill/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn)



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Texas state Rep. Aaron Pena, a Republican, said the exception is a wise one.

<span style='font-size: 20pt'>"With things as they are today, her bill will see a large segment of the Texas population in prison" if it passes without the exception, he said.</span>

"When it comes to household employees or yard workers it is extremely common for Texans to hire people who are likely undocumented workers," Pena said. "It is so common it is overlooked." </div></div>


Do these people realise what they are saying?

Q </div></div>

The Repiglicans have been fine, behind the scenes, all along, with illegals, as long as illegals became their slaves.

Reagan was all about bringing in cheap labor, hence, his Amnesty.

G.

Sev
03-07-2011, 10:01 AM
More piffle.

sack316
03-07-2011, 11:07 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Do you really think that Unions are behind corporations moving to other countries, rather than being able to exploit slave labor???

G. </div></div>

No, I don't think that was a purposeful intent. I think we all are responsible for that. Unions pushed for better wages, safer work environments, reasonable hours etc etc (all good things). This also increases production costs.

We, as consumers, want as good and as much product as we can get for as little possible. This isn't a bad thing either.

But when we put those two things together, we can easily see how much industry and production moved overseas. We can call it "greed" on the part of manufacturers... we can even call it "greed" on the part of ourselves as consumers and investors. But it's just business, and the wisest move for both sides financially speaking...unfortunately.

Sack

Gayle in MD
03-07-2011, 11:21 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Do you really think that Unions are behind corporations moving to other countries, rather than being able to exploit slave labor???

G. </div></div>

No, I don't think that was a purposeful intent. I think we all are responsible for that. Unions pushed for better wages, safer work environments, reasonable hours etc etc (all good things). This also increases production costs.

We, as consumers, want as good and as much product as we can get for as little possible. This isn't a bad thing either.

But when we put those two things together, we can easily see how much industry and production moved overseas. We can call it "greed" on the part of manufacturers... we can even call it "greed" on the part of ourselves as consumers and investors. But it's just business, and the wisest move for both sides financially speaking...unfortunately.

Sack </div></div>

I can't agree, because I refuse to buy anything that isn't made in America, not in my private life, and not in my business life, AND I have had this commitment since the early seventies.

Which is exactly what we should all do, if we want to have a positive impact, on our jobs situation.

AND,.... there are loads of disreputable things that corporations do to cheat on their taxes, as we know, only 2/3's of them pay any.

I'm sure you've heard about that.

So, if we wan't to build our country, we should put our money where our mouths are, and only buy American made products. It isn't really THAT hard to do, once you do all of the initial research, to find out where A.M.P.'s are.

It is a shame, that we have corporate fascists pigs, who gouge the hell out of the American public, pollute our environment, destroy the air and water, make us ill, and then drop us when we become ill, while they are scooping up on record breaking profits, building a vast void between the wealthiest at the top, and all of the rest losing ground, for decades, while they are hiding their money offshore, and scoopipng up our tax dollars, in the form of subsidies and loopholes, insured to them by REpiglicans....is that patriotic?

Is THAT kind of behavior, indicative of Christian Values?

We should all be taxed, in order to further fill up their pockets? THAT isn't redistribution of WEALTH?

G.

Sev
03-07-2011, 11:30 AM
Well then perhaps we should have 100% tariffs on all imports.

pooltchr
03-07-2011, 12:51 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I can't agree, because I refuse to buy anything that isn't made in America,

G.

</div></div>

You might think you don't, but it ain't so.
You buy a Chevrolet that is actually built in Mexico.
You can buy a Kia made in Georgia, but that isn't an American company.
We live in a global economy, and just about everything is either made with foreign parts, or partially assembled overseas.
What brand of gasoline do you put in the gas tank??? Do you think it was drilled for, processed and refined, and distributed in the US?

Even you can't be so foolish as to actually believe that you don't buy foreign products.

Steve

sack316
03-07-2011, 02:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can't agree, because I refuse to buy anything that isn't made in America, not in my private life, and not in my business life, AND I have had this commitment since the early seventies.

Which is exactly what we should all do, if we want to have a positive impact, on our jobs situation.
</div></div>

Agreed... in an ideal situation we could do that. But even "made in USA" isn't made 100% in the USA anymore (I say as I put out my cig in my ashtray bearing the logo of a US tobacco company... ashtray made in France).

Sack

wolfdancer
03-07-2011, 02:21 PM
that's classic "doublethink" on the part of the lawmakers down there.They don't want undocumented workers, but then a few exceptions to save a buck on household expenses. Sounds to me like
"plantation mentality"
In this version of Utopia for Mexicans.....they are supposed to be satisfied with menial jobs and below minimum wages, while seeing all around them.. relative "wealth"
there are a few "hidden costs" in this wealth disparity arrangement...crime, and medical costs for them

wolfdancer
03-07-2011, 02:44 PM
The rallying cry of big business, as they attempt to destroy organized labor, and the unfair costs associated with it...decent wages,benefits,grievance procedures....etc:
"Be Happy in your work"!!!!!

JohnnyD
03-07-2011, 04:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">More piffle. </div></div>This is the truth.

LWW
03-07-2011, 05:18 PM
Excellent post.

LWW

LWW
03-07-2011, 05:19 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I refuse to buy anything that isn't made in America, not in my private life, and not in my business life, AND I have had this commitment since the early seventies.
G.

</div></div>

So Gee has no television?

LWW

pooltchr
03-07-2011, 05:56 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I refuse to buy anything that isn't made in America, not in my private life, and not in my business life, AND I have had this commitment since the early seventies.
G.

</div></div>

So Gee has no television?

LWW </div></div>

I wonder where her computer was made.

Steve

LWW
03-08-2011, 04:01 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I refuse to buy anything that isn't made in America, not in my private life, and not in my business life, AND I have had this commitment since the early seventies.
G.

</div></div>

So Gee has no television?

LWW </div></div>

I wonder where her computer was made.

Steve </div></div>

Actually I commend the spirit, and attempt to buy everything I can made in the USA myself ... but to suggest that someone has done this without violation for 40 years is a whopper of gargantuan proportion.

IMHO ... I suspect that Gee has a Yamaha powered boat and drives a Lexus, or something very similar.

LWW