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pooltchr
03-10-2011, 01:54 PM
Sometimes, in order to get someone to understand any concept, it is necessary to break it down into simple fundamentals.
Let's see if it works on the left leaning friends of the forum.

Public Sector employees work for the government.
That means they are paid by the taxpayers.
If they go into collective barganing, who are they barganing with? The taxpayers! But the taxpayers aren't involved in the negotiations. Their elected representatives handle that job.
The unions take member dues (paid by union members who are paid by the taxpayers) and give it to Democrats. So, all the taxpayers who pay the wages of the public sector employees are supporting the Democrat party, who supports the unions!
In Wisconsin, public sector employees are paid well above the average for similar private sector employees.
So the public sector employees are trying to negotiate higher wages and benefits from the people who pay them, who don't even make as much as they do already!

The above statements are facts, and given these facts, how can anyone in their right mind not understand how corrupt this system is?

An even better question....Why would anyone who pays taxes not be outraged that all of this can be allowed to happen??

Steve

LWW
03-10-2011, 06:53 PM
Dey dun't gots no time for no STEEN-KING facts man!

wolfdancer
03-10-2011, 09:16 PM
In an attempt to be fair minded, as a principled person like myself strives to be:.....here is an interesting article that represents/supports your side of the "raging debate"
( and does it very well)
*** (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyxuUjgHkgs&feature=player_detailpage)

pooltchr
03-10-2011, 09:45 PM
Yes, it does a very good job of laying out the facts. And still, we have people who just don't get it.

Everything about government employee unions is wrong. The only people who benefit from them are the unions themselves, and the democrats who get a lot of money from them.

Let me make that link a little bigger, in case anybody is interested in understanding why public sector unions are a losing proposition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyxuUjgHkgs&feature=player_detailpage

Steve

Qtec
03-11-2011, 03:44 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><u>Public Sector employees work for the government</u>. <span style="color: #990000">who are ALSO taxpayers.</span>
That means they are paid by the taxpayers. </div></div>

This attack on public sector unions has NOTHING to do with the deficit or budgets shortfalls. The GOP and especially Walker have show that..here is one Republican who says it out loud.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 17pt'>WI Senate GOP Leader Admits On-Air That His Goal Is To Defund Labor Unions, Hurt Obama’s Reelection Chances</span>

In an interview with Fox News’ Megyn Kelly moments ago, State Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald (R-WI), one of Walker’s closest allies in the legislature, confirmed <span style='font-size: 14pt'>the true political motive of Walker’s anti-union push.</span> <span style='font-size: 17pt'>Fitzgerald explained that “this battle” is about eliminating unions so that “the money is not there” for the labor movement.</span> <span style='font-size: 20pt'>Specifically, he said that the destruction of unions will make it “much more difficult” for President Obama to win reelection in Wisconsin: </span></div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FITZGERALD: Well if they flip the state senate, which is obviously their goal with eight recalls going on right now, they can take control of the labor unions. <u><span style="color: #3333FF">If we win this battle, and the money is not there under the auspices of the unions, certainly what you’re going to find is President Obama is going to have a much difficult, much more difficult time getting elected and winning the state of Wisconsin.</span></u> </div></div>

link (http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/09/scott-fitzgerald-obama/)


Thanks to the Citizens united ruling- overturning 100 yrs of law- corporations can now spend unlimited funds to turn an election. <span style='font-size: 17pt'>The ONLY thing standing in their way from total control is the unions.</span>


Its amazing how much big money can spread lies and have them accepted as the truth.

Unions and public sector <u>workers</u> are now being portrayed as the bad guys while the Banks, Wall St, the super rich tax dodgers, the companies who avoid paying tax etc etc etc get a free pass....<span style="color: #990000">meanwhile Wall St gives themselves massive amounts of cash and laugh at those who have been fooled.........ie you and your cronies.</span>



Q

LWW
03-11-2011, 05:11 AM
Some will continue to refuse understanding.

Soflasnapper
03-11-2011, 11:51 AM
Correct.

Here's an analogy I've seen describing what's going on.

Management brings 10 cookies into the lunchroom. Management takes 9 of the cookies, then tells the non-union worker to watch out for that union guy-- he's after your cookie!

ugotda7
03-11-2011, 12:24 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Correct.

Here's an analogy I've seen describing what's going on.

Management brings 10 cookies into the lunchroom. Management takes 9 of the cookies, then tells the non-union worker to watch out for that union guy-- he's after your cookie!

</div></div>

Meanwhile...behind the scenes management supported by the union using forced union dues turns around and gives free cookies which were originally paid for by non-union workers (by way of lower wages and benefits) to their union members to demonstrate how they're fighting for the workers.

Only straight up idiots buy this union crock of s**t propaganda being tossed out there these days.....come on, just how freakin' stupid, gullible and easily manipulated are people these days? This cancer has to be completely cut out and the sooner the better.

No wonder the country has been going down the crapper.

pooltchr
03-11-2011, 12:45 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ugotda7</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> just how freakin' stupid, gullible and easily manipulated are people these days? </div></div>

Considering how many times I have heard this irrelevent cookie story repeated, I think the answer is right in front of you!

Steve

LWW
03-11-2011, 04:15 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Correct.

Here's an analogy I've seen describing what's going on.

Management brings 10 cookies into the lunchroom. Management takes 9 of the cookies, then tells the non-union worker to watch out for that union guy-- he's after your cookie!

</div></div>

Here's a more appropriate analogy.

A baker makes a living baking five dozen cookies a day and selling three dozen while feeding his family with two dozen.

They hire 5 unemployed workers who each make five dozen cookies a day, or twenty five dozen. The person who built the bakery gives each family two dozen, plus his own two dozen, and sells the other 13 dozen. Three dozen cover his overhead and he has the proceeds of ten dozen cookies, minus the two dozen cookies needed for advertising and 1 dozen cookies paid to the bank, for a profit of 7 dozen cookies.

The employees are happy because they were unemployed and hungry. The owner is happy because the bakery and cookie dough put at risk has paid off handsomely.

Then along comes the union con man who says "HEY! You do all the work and only get 24 cookies each per day while the EEEVILLL baker gets 108 cookies, and only needs 24! Here's what we do ... we refuse to bake cookies unless you each get 33 cookies per day, which still leaves the EEEVILLL baker 63 cookies. In exchange for getting this done ... you each give me 6 cookies a day.

Well, the baker sees business going to the Keebler Company while his workers strike ... so the baker caves.

Two years later the union con man says "HEY! This still isn't fair. You work too hard. You should only have to produce 57 cookies instead of 60 per day. This still leaves the EEEVILLL boss 48 cookies a day.

Well, not wanting to lose business he caves again.

Two years later the union guy says "HEY! This is still no good. The EEEVILLL baker should pay 2 cookies a day for your health care and 1 cookie a day for your pension. This still leaves the baker 33 cookies a day, which is plenty."

Well, he the baker finally stands up to the union con man and says" I'll bake my cookies in China where the workers are happy to get 12 cookies a day, and even though it costs me another 12 cookies a day to ship them over here ... I'm back to where I was when I opened the big bakery.

Now, the 5 workers are back unemployed and hungry ... the union con man is over at the butcher shop organizing them, and the candlestick maker bails before they come after him.

LWW

Qtec
03-11-2011, 06:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's a more appropriate analogy.

A baker makes a living baking five dozen cookies a day and selling three dozen while feeding his family with two dozen.

They hire 5 unemployed workers who each make five dozen cookies a day, or twenty five dozen. </div></div>

..but guess what? S Walker gets in, slashes wages and funding and nobody can afford to buy the cookies. The baker fires the workers [ adding to unemployment eg even more of a drain on Govt resorces] the Baker can't pay his mortgage, gets foreclosed on, and is now living in a tent.

70% of the US economy comes from the spending power of the MC/working class. The less they have to spend.........

Q

Sev
03-11-2011, 06:21 PM
Union members are less than 12% of the work force. Considering the amount of work many of them actually do that may be a misnomer.

Imagine if all the money that the union bosses take from members was left in the workers pockets to spend in the market rather than funneled to the democrats.

It would seem to me that the unions hobble the ability of the employees spending power while both taking money out of their pockets and causing increases in the price of goods.

Qtec
03-11-2011, 06:22 PM
Correct. Its 'Divide and Conquer', pure and simple.

Q

ugotda7
03-11-2011, 06:50 PM
For the intellectually challenged.....public sector unions at work clearly explained:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=su4PwZCWUdg&feature=player_embedded

Qtec
03-11-2011, 07:00 PM
Only the intellectually challenged would believe that crap.

Divide and Conquer.........and you fall for it.

Q

Sev
03-11-2011, 07:10 PM
12% and falling as part of the work force.

Wait till public union employees start opting out.

When given the choice the people will keep their cash.

ugotda7
03-11-2011, 07:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Only the intellectually challenged would believe that crap.

Divide and Conquer.........and you fall for it.

Q </div></div>

So how it is not accurate? Come on, put your thinking cap on and show us how smart you are. You can do it.

Yeah right...

Qtec
03-11-2011, 07:23 PM
Prove any claim the guy makes.

Its easy to say the GOP are bunch of hypocrites.

Q

ugotda7
03-11-2011, 07:28 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Prove any claim the guy makes.

Its easy to say the GOP are bunch of hypocrites.

Q </div></div>


He clearly laid it out. I guess if he said water was wet you'd disagree with that too.

Oh well, you can lead a horse to water.....

pooltchr
03-11-2011, 07:50 PM
Notice, Q didn't challenge any of the material contained in the video...he just dismissed it out of hand because it goes against his democrat leanings.

It's easier to just call it crap, than to actually discuss the facts.

Typical duck and run tactics.

Steve

Stretch
03-11-2011, 11:58 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ugotda7</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Correct.

Here's an analogy I've seen describing what's going on.

Management brings 10 cookies into the lunchroom. Management takes 9 of the cookies, then tells the non-union worker to watch out for that union guy-- he's after your cookie!

</div></div>

Meanwhile...behind the scenes management supported by the union using forced union dues turns around and gives free cookies which were originally paid for by non-union workers (by way of lower wages and benefits) to their union members to demonstrate how they're fighting for the workers.

Only straight up idiots buy this union crock of s**t propaganda being tossed out there these days.....come on, just how freakin' stupid, gullible and easily manipulated are people these days? This cancer has to be completely cut out and the sooner the better.

No wonder the country has been going down the crapper. </div></div>

That's the way the Cookie crumbles. St.

LWW
03-12-2011, 03:52 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ugotda7</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Prove any claim the guy makes.

Its easy to say the GOP are bunch of hypocrites.

Q </div></div>


He clearly laid it out. I guess if he said water was wet you'd disagree with that too.

Oh well, you can lead a horse to water.....

</div></div>

If dear leader says water is dry, Snoopy will accept that water is dry.

LWW
03-12-2011, 03:52 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Notice, Q didn't challenge any of the material contained in the video...he just dismissed it out of hand because it goes against his democrat leanings.

It's easier to just call it crap, than to actually discuss the facts.

Typical duck and run tactics.

Steve </div></div>

He despises truth.

Qtec
03-12-2011, 05:59 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Prove <u>any</u> claim the guy makes.
</div></div>

You can't even do that.

Q

LWW
03-12-2011, 06:37 AM
Remember this one from the recent past:


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don’t have to prove anything.

Q </div></div>

pooltchr
03-12-2011, 09:48 AM
They love to argue, but they really don't want to talk about specific points. General mud slinging, and attack mode is more suitable to them.
When everything you support is falling apart, it's difficult to defend it. So they make a lot of noise, and hope nobody notices they really aren't saying anything.

Steve

Soflasnapper
03-12-2011, 11:17 AM
Your original post could be rephrased to refer to private or public companies hired by the government to do work as well as for unionized employees. To wit:

Private or public companies work for the government.
That means they are paid by the taxpayers.
If they negotiate a contract, who are they bargaining with? The taxpayers! But the taxpayers aren't involved in the negotiations. Their elected representatives handle that job.

The companies take their earnings from government contracts (paid by the taxpayers) and give it to the Republicans. So, all the taxpayers who pay the contracted price to companies are supporting the Republican party, which supports the companies!

How can anyone in their right mind not understand how corrupt this system is?

-----------

This exact thing appears to be a source of extreme cost to the Arizona taxpayers, because of Gov. Jan Brewer's incestuous relationship with the state's largest private prison operator. She has 3 or so of her top aides from that company, and her controversial law will create a huge increase in state incarcerations, at vast cost to the AZ taxpayers, and a cash bonanza to this company who is in bed with the governor.

pooltchr
03-12-2011, 11:44 AM
While you may have a point, it is completely irrelevant. Government contracts are supposed to be handled by the bidding process. There is competition that is supposed to make sure the taxpayers get the best deal. Whether or not that happens is a completely different issue.
There is no competition involved with public sector employees. If there were, competing unions could recruit teachers, and make a competitive bid for the contract. That doesn't happen. Public sector unions in effect have a monopoly on their particular industry, so taxpayers have no alternative but to give in to their demands, or do without their critical services.

Steve

ugotda7
03-12-2011, 11:50 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Prove <u>any</u> claim the guy makes.
</div></div>

You can't even do that.

Q </div></div>

Those cookies taste good don't they?

Soflasnapper
03-12-2011, 05:21 PM
Public sector unions in effect have a monopoly on their particular industry, so taxpayers have no alternative but to give in to their demands, or do without their critical services.

You have a counterexample showing this is wrong in Wisconsin.

Last year, they took an effective 3% pay cut from forced furloughs.

This year, they accepted up to a $5,000 cut in take home pay, everything Walker asked from them on a fiscal basis.

I'm pretty sure the union there did not 'demand' these things, and rather opposed them, but still accepted them.

pooltchr
03-12-2011, 07:48 PM
I wonder if the union members got to reduce their membership dues to help offset their loss.

Steve