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LWW
03-13-2011, 08:54 AM
Some would suggest that since both the Quran and the Bible are claimed to be Holy writ by their followers, somehow a moral equivalence between them must exist.

Using simple logic, on the face of things this has an air of "TRUTHINESS" to it.

The evaporates however by even the most cursory examination of the two books.

The deception is enabled by using Old Testament scripture in comparison with the Quran.

To begin with, both Christianity and Islam recognize the Old Testament as a forerunner to the New Testament/Quran.

According to the Quran, Mohammed was the true prophet who came to deliver an ideology overturning the Old Testament ... and that the OT had been voided because it had become corrupted by man, especially the Jews, and didn't go nearly far enough in expressing the will of the Creator of the universe and that the word of Allah must be spread even if force was required.

According to the New Testament, Jesus was the true prophet who came to deliver an ideology overturning the Old Testament ... and that the OT had been voided because it had become corrupted by man, and that the true word of the Creator of the universe must be spread by word and acts and that violence must be rejected.

Now that the schism between the two faiths has been established, let's review the key players in the world's two major Abrahamic religions.

LWW
03-13-2011, 08:55 AM
* Jesus never forced followers to continue believing. After Jesus made a difficult saying, "many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him. Then Jesus said to the twelve, 'Will ye also go away?' Then Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.'" (John 6:31-69)

* Muhammad forced followers to continue believing, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him." (Hadith al-Bukhari, Vol. 9, Bk. 84, No. 57)

LWW
03-13-2011, 08:56 AM
* Jesus taught "forgive those who trespass against you." (Matthew 6:10-15)

* Muhammad taught to avenge trespasses against your honor, family or religion. "Narrated Anas bin Malik: 'On the day of the Conquest, the Prophet entered Mecca, wearing a helmet on his head. When he took it off, a man came and said, "Ibn Khatal is clinging to the curtain of the Ka'ba." The Prophet said, "Kill him."'" (Hadith Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 5, Book 59, No. 582)

"Ibn Khatal ... had two slave girls who used to sing for him and for his companions songs full of abuse of the Prophet. The Prophet's instructions specified that the two slave girls should also be killed. Another (to be kiilled) was al-Huwayrith Nuqaydh Wahb Qusayy, one of those who used to insult him in Mecca." (Sirat Rasul Allah)

LWW
03-13-2011, 08:56 AM
* Jesus never tortured anyone.

* Muhammad tortured the chief of a Jewish tribe.

“Kinana had been guardian of the tribe's treasures, and he was brought before the apostle, who asked where they were hidden. But Kinana refused to disclose the place. The apostle of Allah handed him over to al-Zubayr, saying, 'Torture him until he tells what he knows', and al-Zubayr kindled a fire on his chest so that he almost expired; then the apostle gave him to Muhammad b. Maslama, who struck off his head.” (Sirat Rasul Allah)

LWW
03-13-2011, 08:58 AM
* Jesus did not retaliate when violence was committed against him, saying "Father, forgive them." (Luke 23:34)

* Muhammad retaliated when violence was committed against him, ordering the death of his enemies.

"Muhammad sent Abdullah to use diplomacy to gain an opportunity to assassinate Sofyan. Abdullah went forth, pretending to be on his Sofyan's side, and when the moment was right, cut off his head. He carried it to Muhammad, who was in the Mosque in Medina. Muhammad was so gratified, he gave the assassin his staff, saying: 'This shall be a token betwixt you and me on the day of resurrection. Verily, few on that day shall have anything to lean upon.'" (Sirat Rasul Allah).

"Ibn Sa'd Tabaqat reported: 'The apostle of Allah entered through Adhakhir into Mecca. He ordered six men and four women to be killed." (Kitab al-Tabaqat, written by Ibn Sa'd (A.D. 745-845), Vol. 2, p. 168.)

LWW
03-13-2011, 08:58 AM
* Following Jesus was voluntary, from the inside out.

* Following Muhammad could be coerced, from the outside in.

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued." (Sura 9:29)

LWW
03-13-2011, 08:59 AM
* A martyr in Christian and Jewish thought is one who dies for his faith.

* A martyr in Islamic thought is one who dies for his faith while killing infidels.

"Narrated Abu Huraira: 'The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr)."'"(Hadith al-Bukhari Vol 1, Bk 2, #35)

LWW
03-13-2011, 08:59 AM
*None of Jesus' Apostles led armies. A village did not receive Jesus "and when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, 'Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elias did?' But he turned and rebuked them, and said, 'Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.'" (Luke 9:52-56)

* All of the caliphs who followed Muhammad led armies. (Caliphs Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Muawiyya, the Umayyads, the Abbasids, etc.)

LWW
03-13-2011, 09:00 AM
* In the first 300 years of Christianity, there were 10 major Roman persecutions, and Christians were fed to lions in the Coliseum. Never did Christians lead an armed resistance against those who attacked them.

* In the first 300 years of Islam, Muslim armies conquered Arabia, Persia, the Holy Land, North Africa, Spain, Southern France, Central Africa, and invaded vast areas of Asia and Asia Minor.

LWW
03-13-2011, 09:00 AM
Fighting is inconsistent with Jesus' example but not Muhammad's, as the Sirat Rasul Allah records Muhammad personally led 27 raids, including Battle of Badr, 624 AD; Battle of Uhud and expulsion of Banu Nadir, 625 AD; Attack on Banu Mustaliq, 626 AD; Battle of the Trench and killing Banu Qurayza, 627 AD; Battle of Khaybar, 628 AD; Battle of Mu’tah, 629 AD; Conquest of Mecca, Battle of Hunayn, Battle of Auras and Siege of al-Ta’if, where Mohammed used a catapult, 630 AD; Battle of Tabouk, Subjugation of Banu Thaqif (Yemen) and subjugation of Ghassanids (Arab Christians), 631 AD.

LWW
03-13-2011, 09:01 AM
Jesus' teaching on how to treat enemies:

* Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, pray for them which despitefully use you (Matthew 5:44).

* Resist not evil (Matthew 5:39).

* If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to them the other (Matthew 5:39).

* If someone takes your coat, give them your shirt (Matthew 5:40).

* If someone make you carry something one mile, carry it two (Matthew 5:41).

* Forgive and you shall be forgiven (Matthew 6:14).

* Judge not, that ye be not judged (Matthew 7:1).


* Blessed are the peacemakers (Matthew 5:9).

* Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy (Matthew 5:7).

* Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not kill, but I say who ever is angry with his brother is in danger of the judgment (Matthew 5:21-22).

* Treat others the same way you want them to treat you (Luke 6:27-36).

* Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick, whatever you do to the very least you have done unto me (Matthew 25:40).

LWW
03-13-2011, 09:02 AM
Muhammad's teaching on how to treat enemies:

* Infidels are your sworn enemies (Sura 4:101).

* Be ruthless to the infidels (Sura 48:29).

* Make war on the infidels who dwell around you (Sura 9:123, 66:9).

* Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day (Sura 9:29).

* Strike off the heads of infidels in battle (Sura 47:4).

* If someone stops believing in Allah, kill him (al-Bukhari 9:84:57).

* Take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends (Sura 5:51, 60:13).

* Never be a helper to the disbelievers (Sura 28:86).

* Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (Sura 2:191).

* No Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel (al-Bukhari 1:3:111).

* The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land (Sura 5:33).

LWW
03-13-2011, 09:02 AM
* Jesus never killed anyone.

* Muhammad killed an estimated 3,000 people, including beheading 700 Jews of the Banu Qurayza tribe in Medina, A.D. 627:

"The Jews surrendered and the apostle confined them in Medina. Then the apostle went out to the market and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. ... There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka'b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, 'Will you never understand? Don't you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!' This went on until the apostle made an end of them." (Sirat Rasul Allah)

LWW
03-13-2011, 09:03 AM
* Jesus never owned slaves.

* Muhammad received a fifth of the prisoners taken in battle, including women. (Sura 8:41)

"Muhammad gave command and the heads of the two chiefs were severed from their bodies. The scene of torture and bloodshed was hardly ended when Muhammad sent Bilal to fetch the wife of Kinana. ... He cast his mantle around her in token that she was to be his own." (Conquest of Khaybar, A.D. 628, Sirat Rasul Allah)

"The apostle occupied the Jewish forts taking prisoners as he went. Among these were Safiya, the wife of Kinana. The apostle chose Safiya for himself. The other prisoners were distributed among the Muslims." (Sirat Rasul Allah)

"Married women are forbidden unto you, except those whom your right hands possess (taken in battle.)" (Sura 4:24)

LWW
03-13-2011, 09:04 AM
Now that the harsh light of truth has been shown upon yet another Islamic apologist myth, I ask the reader to determine if they see a substantive difference between the two faiths?

I report, you decide.

Soflasnapper
03-13-2011, 12:11 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some would suggest that since both the Quran and the Bible are claimed to be Holy writ by their followers, somehow a moral equivalence between them must exist.

Using simple logic, on the face of things this has an air of "TRUTHINESS" to it.

The evaporates however by even the most cursory examination of the two books.

The deception is enabled by using Old Testament scripture in comparison with the Quran.

To begin with, both Christianity and Islam recognize the Old Testament as a forerunner to the New Testament/Quran.

According to the Quran, Mohammed was the true prophet who came to deliver an ideology overturning the Old Testament ... and that the OT had been voided because it had become corrupted by man, especially the Jews, and didn't go nearly far enough in expressing the will of the Creator of the universe and that the word of Allah must be spread even if force was required.

According to the New Testament, Jesus was the true prophet who came to deliver an ideology overturning the Old Testament ... and that the OT had been voided because it had become corrupted by man, and that the true word of the Creator of the universe must be spread by word and acts and that violence must be rejected.

Now that the schism between the two faiths has been established, let's review the key players in the world's two major Abrahamic religions. </div></div>

You left out the part where Islam considers Jesus a great prophet, his teachings therefore from God, and so great a prophet that Islam teaches that Jesus will sit at the right hand of God on the day of judgment, and himself judge the quick (the living) and the dead. Islam also agrees Jesus was born of a virgin, and ascended bodily into heaven.

As to Jesus' teachings canceling or overturning the OT, this is the scriptural analysis from the RC catechism:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Jesus, the Law, and the Temple

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Simplified

« prev : next »
Fulfilling the Law (577)

At the very beginning, Jesus presented the law given on Sinai in light of the New Covenant. Jesus said, "Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill" (Mt 5:17). Anyone who breaks the least law and teaches others "will be called least in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt 5:17-19).
Keeping the Law (578-580)

As Israel's Messiah, Jesus kept the law in its all-embracing detail, to "the least of these commandments" (Mt 5:17-19). The Jews admitted that they could not observe the Law and had an annual Day of Atonement.

The Pharisees had a zeal for the Law but unfortunately they lapsed into a hypocritical casuistry. Otherwise, they could have prepared for God's intervention in Jesus.

Only Jesus, the Divine Legislator, "born of a woman, born under the law," could perfectly fulfill this law (Gal 4:4). Jesus had the Law engraved on his heart. He took upon himself "the curse of the Law" so he could redeem men "from the transgressions under the first Covenant" (Gal 3:13).
Offending Some Teachers (581-582)

Jesus (seen by the people as a rabbi) offended the Jewish teachers because he refused to put his teachings alongside of theirs (as just another opinion). He spoke "as one who had authority and not as their scribes" (Mt 7:28-29). "You have heard it said.... But I say to you..." (Mt 5:33-34). He also rejected the Pharisees' human traditions which made "void the Word of God" (Mk 7:13).

Concerning dietary laws, Jesus brought out their real meaning, showing that only what comes from the heart can defile a man (Mk 7:18-21). The other teachers did not accept Jesus even though his preaching was accompanied by miracles. They especially rejected his teaching that someone could help his neighbor on the Sabbath.
Respect for the Temple (583-584)

Jesus showed the deepest respect for the Temple, going there every year of his hidden life (Lk 2:41). When twelve years old, Jesus remained in the Temple to remind his parents that he must be about his Father's business (2:46-49). In John's Gospel, he patterned his public ministry according to his pilgrimages to Jerusalem.

For Jesus the Temple was a house for prayer and he was angered when its outer court was used for commerce (Mt 21:18). After the Resurrection, the apostles continued to revere the Temple (Acts 2:46).
The Temple's Destruction (585-586)

Jesus predicted the Temple's destruction. Not one stone would remain "upon another" (Mt 24:1-2). This prophecy was distorted at his trial (Mk 14:57-58) and used as an insult on the cross (Mt 27:39-40).

Jesus willingly paid the Temple tax for himself and Peter. He identified himself with the Temple by claiming to be God's definitive dwelling-place among men. His death presaged the destruction of the Temple and began a new age when man "will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem" (Jn 4:21).</div></div>

So your setup gloss is theologically incorrect.

JohnnyD
03-13-2011, 12:22 PM
LWW,outstanding posts.

LWW
03-13-2011, 01:31 PM
Sorry ... but your smokescreen machine is malfunctioning.

Yes, you are correct that Islam honors Issa ... Jesus ... and that is entirely irrelevant to the discussion as they also reject the New Testament version of the message of the Christ and claim that he was someone of the same belief system as Mohammed.

Next shameless defense of the most intolerant and violent faith on Earth please?

LWW
03-13-2011, 01:53 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So your setup gloss is theologically incorrect. </div></div>

Baldersdash and poppycock.

You obviously have no knowledge of the Christian faith if you aren't aware of the concept of the new covenant.

Learn:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 <span style='font-size: 11pt'>But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.</span>

7 <span style='font-size: 11pt'>For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.</span>

8 <span style='font-size: 14pt'>For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:</span>

9 <span style='font-size: 11pt'>Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.</span>

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, <span style='font-size: 11pt'>A new covenant, he hath made the first old.</span> Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

-Book of Hebrews Chapter VIII-</div></div>

cushioncrawler
03-13-2011, 04:40 PM
Islam iz a cult.

But none of any of this proovs or even shows (but it might hint) that Mohamed woz wrong (ie that islam iz wrong), even if indeed islam iz a cult. Just koz its a cult duznt mean that allah duznt exist.

But all of this iz a bit silly.
Here we are, uzing morals to kriticize a religion, when a religion defines morals.
If a religion sez u havta do something, or that u havta not do something, then thats that.
mac.

LWW
03-13-2011, 05:57 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Islam iz a cult.

But none of any of this proovs or even shows (but it might hint) that Mohamed woz wrong (ie that islam iz wrong), even if indeed islam iz a cult. Just koz its a cult duznt mean that allah duznt exist.

But all of this iz a bit silly.
Here we are, uzing morals to kriticize a religion, when a religion defines morals.
If a religion sez u havta do something, or that u havta not do something, then thats that.
mac. </div></div>

Agreed.

My point was that making the argument that they are equivalent is ridiculous.

To use your analogy ... to be a Christian one must love the sinner even if they hate the sin, for the sinner possesses an immortal soul which may yet be redeemed. To be a Muslim, by the Quran, one must force others to either convert, live as subhumans, or die.

Qtec
03-13-2011, 08:28 PM
Thank you for this post. It shows how utterly confused you are. You have NO IDEA what you are taking about.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">According to the Quran, Mohammed was the true prophet <span style="color: #990000">Correct</span>who came to deliver an ideology overturning the Old Testament ... and that the OT had been voided because it had become corrupted by man, especially the Jews, and didn't go nearly far enough in expressing the will of the Creator of the universe and that the word of Allah must be spread even if force was required.

According to the New Testament, <span style='font-size: 20pt'>Jesus was the true prophet </span>who came to deliver an ideology overturning the Old Testament ... and that the OT had been voided because it had become corrupted by man, and that the true word of the Creator of the universe must be spread by word and acts and that violence must be rejected. </div></div>

Lets begin with this.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is Jesus God? <span style="color: #990000"> ie God, not a prophet.</span>The Only Alternatives
Is Jesus God? Many people have dealt with this "spiritual" dispute by intellectually accepting Jesus as a great man, great teacher, or great prophet. However, Jesus and His inspired followers didn't mince words when they declared Him to be God (John 10:30-38, Matthew 16:13-17, Mark 14:61-64, John 14:6, Hebrews 1:8, Colossians 1:16, John 12:40-41 [quoting Isaiah 6:1-10]). Therefore, any type of intellectual compromise calling Jesus a "good man" is logically inconsistent. Why? Because there are really only three legitimate alternatives for the identity of Jesus Christ. He is either a liar, a lunatic or our Lord and God. Since Jesus claimed to be God, His claims are either true or false. If false, He must have been a liar, deliberately misleading the multitudes. Or, He was a lunatic, sincerely believing Himself to be God, when in reality He was just a man. However, if Jesus was a "good man," as most people now agree, how then could He be both good and crazy, or good and a liar? There is only one logically consistent alternative - He must have been telling the truth. In addition to the logical inconsistency, the remarkable historical, archaeological and manuscript evidence shows that Jesus was neither a liar nor a lunatic. <span style='font-size: 20pt'>Again, the only position left is that His claim is true. Jesus is Lord and God.</span><span style="color: #990000">Not a prophet.</span>

<span style='font-size: 26pt'>Jesus Christ was the promised Messiah, God come to earth in human form.<span style="color: #990000">Not a prophet. </span></span> When Jesus had continued to talk to the Samaritan woman, He told her who He was. "The woman said, 'I know that Messiah' [called Christ] 'is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.' <span style='font-size: 26pt'>Then Jesus declared, 'I who speak to you am he'"</span> (John 4:25-26). </div></div>


Jews and Muslim's see Jesus totally differently from the way Christians do.


Q

wolfdancer
03-13-2011, 08:58 PM
If Jesus were here on earth today, and people were questioning him,
....(Then Jesus declared, 'I who speak to you am he'")
He might reply instead.....
"I am what I say I am"

Qtec
03-13-2011, 09:11 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If Jesus were here on earth today, and people were questioning him,
....(Then Jesus declared, 'I who speak to you am he'")
He might reply instead.....
"I am what I say I am" </div></div>

I disagree but again I'm no expert.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am what I say I am </div></div> is pretty vague unless he says exactly what he is.

In this case, the woman specifically says the Messiah,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The woman said, 'I know that Messiah' [called Christ] 'is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.' </div></div>

and Jesus says,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">'I who speak to you am he' </div></div>

To me its quite clear from this and other quotes that Jesus did declare him as God. That's why they crucified him.

JMO

Q

wolfdancer
03-13-2011, 09:25 PM
Q, "I am what I say I am"...is a rap "song"? by, Eminem

JohnnyD
03-13-2011, 09:28 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Q, "I am what I say I am"...is a rap "song"? by, Eminem </div></div>
Who cares!

Stretch
03-13-2011, 10:58 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Q, "I am what I say I am"...is a rap "song"? by, Eminem </div></div>

Didn't he say " i am what i am, and that's all that i am?" Ooop sorry, that was Popeye. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif St.

wolfdancer
03-13-2011, 11:29 PM
lol, I forgot that originally was a Popeye saying.

LWW
03-14-2011, 03:02 AM
The misconceptions among our resident Biblical scholars is astounding JohnnyD.

Soflasnapper
03-14-2011, 11:47 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

To me its quite clear from this and other quotes that Jesus did declare him as God. That's why they crucified him.

JMO

Q </div></div>

All of those kinds of claims are only found in the non-synoptic Gospel of John, which reflected the non-standard beliefs of the large cohort of Gnostics in the early church.

The Gnostics were eventually anathematized, slaughtered and repressed, leaving only this gospel to remember them by (along with the mystical idea of the Trinity, which passed into accepted church dogma by a single vote of the Council of Nicea, iirc., via the pressure of Sol Invictus-worshipping Constantine.)

The Sanhedrin asked Jesus directly, 'are you the son of God?' His reply did not affirm this, and rather said, 'some say I am.'

LWW
03-14-2011, 03:53 PM
That explains why the Society of Novus Spiritus, Ecclesia Gnostica, the Thomasine Church, the Apostolic Johannite Church, the Alexandrian Gnostic Church, and the North American College of Gnostic Bishops thrive to this very day.

What isn't explained is why none of the Islamic apologists want to discuss the actual topic?

OTOH, the reason seems to be self evident.

Soflasnapper
03-14-2011, 07:11 PM
Some latter day self-described Gnostics have indeed taken up the banner.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> A number of 19th century thinkers such as William Blake, Arthur Schopenhauer,[96] Albert Pike and Madame Blavatsky studied Gnostic thought extensively and were influenced by it, and even figures like Herman Melville and W. B. Yeats were more tangentially influenced.[97] Jules Doinel "re-established" a Gnostic church in France in 1890 which altered its form as it passed through various direct successors (Fabre des Essarts as Tau Synésius and Joanny Bricaud as Tau Jean II most notably), and which, although small, is still active today.[98]

Early 20th century thinkers who heavily studied and were influenced by Gnosticism include Carl Jung (who supported Gnosticism), Eric Voegelin (who opposed it), Jorge Luis Borges (who included it in many of his short stories), and Aleister Crowley, with figures such as Hermann Hesse being more moderatedly influenced. Rene Guenon founded the gnostic review, Le Gnose in 1909 (before moving to a more "Perennialist" position). Gnostic Thelemite organizations, such as Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica and Ordo Templi Orientis, trace themselves to Crowley's thought.

The discovery and translation of the Nag Hammadi library after 1945 had a huge impact on Gnosticism since World War II. Thinkers who were heavily influenced by Gnosticism in this period include Hans Jonas, Philip K. Dick and Harold Bloom, with Albert Camus and Allen Ginsberg being more moderately influenced.[97] A number of ecclesiastical bodies which think of themselves as Gnostic have been set up or re-founded since World War II as well, including the Society of Novus Spiritus, Ecclesia Gnostica, the Thomasine Church, the Apostolic Johannite Church, the Alexandrian Gnostic Church, the North American College of Gnostic Bishops. Celia Green has written on Gnostic Christianity in relation to her own philosophy.[99]</div></div>

That some have re-kick-started the religion in some form or another starting back in 1890, and some more recent congregations dating from after WW II, in no way shows some unbroken chain back to the 3rd century CE.

Where there is perhaps an unbroken chain, as in the case of the Mandaean community, for example, these can hardly be classified as Christian Gnostics.

In other [Gnostic traditions] (e.g. the Notzrim and Mandaeans), [Jesus] is considered a mšiha kdaba or "false messiah" who perverted the teachings entrusted to him by John the Baptist.[12]

I'm sure you recognize the source as your own.

hondo
03-14-2011, 08:42 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now that the harsh light of truth has been shown upon yet another Islamic apologist myth, I ask the reader to determine if they see a substantive difference between the two faiths?

I report, you decide. </div></div>

To be honest, Mohammed's version of his revelation reminds me of Joseph Smith's ridiculous tale of urim and thummin.
I never did buy it.

hondo
03-14-2011, 08:47 PM
Jesus was very cognizant of needing to fulfill OT prophecy of a Messiah, even hiring the ass to ride into Jerusalem.
So to that extent you are correct.
Still, we have to look at what he said, which, in my mind, directly contradicts the questionable decrees of Yahweh.

hondo
03-14-2011, 08:50 PM
"Jews and Muslim's see Jesus totally differently from the way Christians do."

I absolutely agree.

hondo
03-14-2011, 08:51 PM
Or maybe, " I yam what I yam and that's all what I yam."

OOPS! Just saw Stretch's post.
Sorry, Stretch. Great minds run the same track. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

hondo
03-14-2011, 08:55 PM
LOL! Perhaps you have guessed by some of my comments about Yahweh- I am a bit of a gnostic.

wolfdancer
03-14-2011, 09:05 PM
This site should have been at, or near the bottom of any list of sites, ....to have any meaningful discussion on that topic.
But that is just my opinion.

hondo
03-14-2011, 09:28 PM
Oh, I don't know. I've enjoyed it.

wolfdancer
03-14-2011, 09:56 PM
it may have it's "moments"....
Lately, I both wonder and worry about the mental status, or psyche, of a couple of members here. At least one seems to be working himself into a rage where he can then justify some form of violence. I've been frequenting the pawn shops, and Dick's Sporting Goods stores, looking for a good home defense weapon.
xyz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ2vrrFkgV4&feature=player_detailpage)
If this lady can do it....should be a cinch for me:
XXX (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrteiQLcYvs&feature=player_detailpage)

wolfdancer
03-14-2011, 10:13 PM
Hondo I was sorry to see you post on this thread, as lww was about to set a new record for commenting on one's previous comments, The count was up to 16, a new ccb board record, breaking an older one that he had previously set.

LWW
03-15-2011, 04:17 AM
Sadly the cabal has again trashed a thread, assuring that the topic at hand not actually be discussed.

hondo
03-15-2011, 05:30 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sadly the cabal has again trashed a thread, assuring that the topic at hand not actually be discussed. </div></div>

Yet you encourage the weasel to trash every thread and even
join in.
Bloody hypocrite!~

Qtec
03-15-2011, 05:36 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sadly the cabal has again trashed a thread, assuring that the topic at hand not actually be discussed. </div></div>

Yet you encourage the weasel to trash every thread and even
join in.
Bloody hypocrite!~ </div></div>

Ain't that the truth.

Q

Soflasnapper
03-16-2011, 02:11 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now that the harsh light of truth has been shown upon yet another Islamic apologist myth, I ask the reader to determine if they see a substantive difference between the two faiths?

I report, you decide. </div></div>

To be honest, Mohammed's version of his revelation reminds me of Joseph Smith's ridiculous tale of urim and thummin.
I never did buy it. </div></div>

There are ridiculous mathematical symmetries in the Koran, centered around the number 19, that are extremely hard to imagine that semi-literate at best man contriving to put into that text. I'd guess they were impossible to appear there by coincidence, and impossible for it to be his own work.

So there's that. See here. (http://www.submission.org/miracle/history.html)

Why 19? One past 18 is a hint.

Soflasnapper
03-16-2011, 02:14 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Jews and Muslim's see Jesus totally differently from the way Christians do."

I absolutely agree.


</div></div>

That's half right. Jews, certainly. Muslims see Jesus about 85-90% the way Christians do. The differences are critical of course, in that they deny the death on the cross and the resurrection, anything close to the Trinity doctrine, etc.

LWW
03-16-2011, 03:15 AM
Sorry ... but neither the Bible code nor the Q'uran code hold up to mathematical scrutiny.

Qtec
03-16-2011, 03:20 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Christian doctrine of the Trinity, one of the most important in mainstream Christian faith, teaches the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons (Greek: hypostases)[1] in one divine Being (Greek: Ousia), called the Godhead.[2]

According to this doctrine, God exists as three persons <u>but is one God,</u> </div></div>

Now, the Bible may be a cut and paste job to reflect a certain ideology but its what mainstream American Christians believe.

Tom DeLay hopes the world ends tomorrow! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjMRgT5o-Ig)

Q

hondo
03-16-2011, 05:31 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry ... but neither the Bible code nor the Q'uran code hold up to mathematical scrutiny. </div></div>

LINK?

Soflasnapper
03-16-2011, 01:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry ... but neither the Bible code nor the Q'uran code hold up to mathematical scrutiny. </div></div>

You have a degree in mathematics? Me too!

wolfdancer
03-16-2011, 02:02 PM
I believe that he has an online doctorate in the theory of imaginary numbers.

Soflasnapper
03-16-2011, 02:04 PM
Or the irrational numbers, prolly? LOL!

LWW
03-17-2011, 03:07 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry ... but neither the Bible code nor the Q'uran code hold up to mathematical scrutiny. </div></div>

You have a degree in mathematics? Me too! </div></div>

Not at all.

But I do know that the same procedures used for the Bible Code were applied to other large books and produced similar results.

"MOBY DICK" I believe was the test book used, and it predicted all kinds of things.

hondo
03-17-2011, 06:21 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry ... but neither the Bible code nor the Q'uran code hold up to mathematical scrutiny. </div></div>

You have a degree in mathematics? Me too! </div></div>

Not at all.

But I do know that the same procedures used for the Bible Code were applied to other large books and produced similar results.

"MOBY DICK" I believe was the test book used, and it predicted all kinds of things. </div></div>

O WHALE!

Soflasnapper
03-17-2011, 04:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry ... but neither the Bible code nor the Q'uran code hold up to mathematical scrutiny. </div></div>

You have a degree in mathematics? Me too! </div></div>

Not at all.

But I do know that the same procedures used for the Bible Code were applied to other large books and produced similar results.

"MOBY DICK" I believe was the test book used, and it predicted all kinds of things. </div></div>

You are correct that a researcher did allege that, although the Bible code advocates claim there was too much ad hoc-ery in his methodology making it too reliant on tricks that don't make for a real comparable 'code' per se. I haven't looked into either of these sides of that dispute to have an opinion.

However, that's not mathematical scrutiny-- more logical assumptions scrutiny. For all I can tell, the mathematics of these famous code analyses are correct, and the attack is rather on how they massage their findings, what they decide to mention and what they leave out.

LWW
03-18-2011, 03:30 AM
Here it is in a nutshell ... if you take a million word document and then search for words spelled forwards, or backwards, or vertically ... including vertically reversed ... or diagonally ... including diagonally reversed ... and then allow incorrect spelling so long as they are reasonably phonetically correct, well you can find whatever you want.

And, FWIW, since we have a cabalist in the crowd defending the Bible code ... I wonder how he handles that the Bible code called Obama the antichrist?

hondo
03-18-2011, 07:03 AM
Moby Dick says Glen Beck is the Anti-Christ.
If you play Lady Gaga's latest song backwards, it says
"Sarah Palin is 666."

Who to believe?

wolfdancer
03-18-2011, 03:02 PM
"I am, I said, to no one there, and no one heard at all, not even the chair"
XXX (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNdp-8P859o&feature=player_detailpage)

Qtec
03-18-2011, 09:17 PM
OK.

Something else.

Ian Dury? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WGVgfjnLqc&feature=fvwrel)

just brilliant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvs1Vbgc6pI)

live (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNLVMDF9mUo)

feelgood song to finish (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuNIsY6JdUw&feature=related)

Q

wolfdancer
03-18-2011, 09:22 PM
the last one was more my style...jazz, rhythm and blues, also classical and new age

Qtec
03-18-2011, 09:42 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">jazz, rhythm and blues </div></div>


/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

the master (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOi_wxypeGc&feature=related)

Q

wolfdancer
03-18-2011, 09:49 PM
Thanks for the link Q....I never heard him before....sounds pretty
good, i'm just on the first song.

Stretch
03-18-2011, 10:52 PM
All good Vids, Q......i don't know about a few of yours. Thank god knowone linked to Justin Bieber or i'd just have to hit that "notify" button. That's a bannable offence! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif St.

hondo
03-19-2011, 06:17 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All good Vids, Q......i don't know about a few of yours. Thank god knowone linked to Justin Bieber or i'd just have to hit that "notify" button. That's a bannable offence! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif St. </div></div>


/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Soflasnapper
03-20-2011, 02:34 AM
Check the 'Solid Air' vid listed on the right.