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Sid_Vicious
03-13-2011, 10:37 AM
I remember this topic posted a long time ago, but this topic has come up a lot in some of my recent experiences. Is it perfectly legal for a player who is hooked, to simply pick up the CB and hand it to you? Seems to me that a good hook could have been performed for a secondary reason, such as causing the opponent to break out something if the escape for getting to the OB is real tricky. I don't think I have ever picked up a hidden CB myself, but I will if it's generally accepted as totally legal by BCA rules. Thanks. sid

pooltchr
03-13-2011, 11:00 AM
I have done it myself, and coached players on my team to do the same, when it is the smartest play.

I play a lot of 8-ball, and in a case where a player would have to kick to get a good hit on the 8, and a miss could result in a scratch and loss of game, I prefer to give the opponent ball in hand and hope to get back to the table again.

It's good defense in many cases to give up ball in hand. Play the odds.

Steve

Sid_Vicious
03-13-2011, 11:54 AM
Thank you. I asked one of the head BCA refs this question once(a local player) several years ago, and he suggested at that time that there either was a sportsmanship rule in place, or one being considered, for at least the Nationals in LV, requiring that a player has to make an honest attempt to hit the CB. I saw a lot of possible "holes" in that plan, cuz it doesn't take much to nudge the CB and give up BIH that way. I guess I will start picking up the CB, and hope to not get swatted with a cue in Las Vegas.

BTW, I wasn't talking about general shots, but the times you put the lockup on the guy so hard, that you'd probably never get out of the hook without disturbing blocking balls around the CB. I totally agree about sacrificing a BIH intentionally. It was the delicate plucking of the OB out of the mess that I was talking about. I suppose it's all the same thing, but I thought I would ask anyway. sid

Bambu
03-13-2011, 01:23 PM
Great question. But legal or not, it would be tough to call a foul on someone for picking up the ball. To live with myself, I would have to make that rule clear before they picked it up.

pooltchr
03-13-2011, 01:47 PM
There is no doubt about calling a foul...if you pick up the cue ball, it is a foul. You are giving up ball in hand. The strategy being, do you disturb the other balls before giving up ball in hand, or just pick it up. You could just as easily touch the cue ball with the tip of your cue. Same result. Foul, BIH, and leave the table the way it is.
Steve

JJFSTAR
03-14-2011, 09:42 AM
I love this question, it comes up a lot. It comes up about as frequently as “can I shoot my own ball down and call a safe?” And my answer is “not in 9ball or one pocket but in 8ball or strait pool you can but its generally a bad idea more so in 8 than in 14.1.” Some people think they are so smart for doing this and often pat themselves on the back for making such a smart play without ever realizing that it usually isn’t the best one. Not that I have NEVER done this but IMHO it is done far too frequently. It is a very rare occasion that just picking up the CB or tapping it with your tip is the BEST shot. I see it done all the time and for every time it’s done 98-99% of the time it certainly was not the BEST play.

Usually there is SOMETHING you can do to improve your position or worsen theirs. Examples are 1. You can shoot down his duck if he has one taking away his insurance shot. 2. You can shoot the ball closest to the problem cluster making it more difficult to execute the break shot after BIH. 3. Is there a dead or nearly dead carom out of this problem cluster that you can nudge out of line? 4. If you look at his potential run is it a connect the dots and is there any way you can mess up that structure? In other words can you make it less of a “road map” by say for example leaving a lone ball on one side of the table making his run slightly more difficult by making his position zone smaller or making him take an extra trip up or down the table? 5. Does he have a problem cluster? Can you make one for him? 6. Does he have an easy ball in the center of the table that you can maybe accurately shoot to the rail and freeze it or leave it close to the rail near the side pocket?

I could go on but I think you get the idea. Another thing that people rarely think about is their cueing options when considering the CB tap or “pick up the ball” strategy. Remember you are going to foul anyway so it doesn’t matter if you “have to jack up” or whatever the rules state that you have to do to make a legal hit. If that ball is ¼ of a chalks width away from the CB you can still shoot into it because you are incurring the worst penalty BIH; unless of course the rules state that that is loss of game. I have had league players stop me before I shoot a purposeful foul and tell me I have to raise the butt of my cue 45deg WHEN I WAS SHOOTING INTO THEIR BALL of course I have made them see the absurdity of what they have said to me but a couple of them still got angry at me about it.

I once saw a pro do this it was Rodney Morris. I think (not sure though) it was during the “skins” tournament. He ended up somehow behind an OB with the CB nearly in the jaws of the pocket. Out of frustration he knocked the CB in the pocket. Now I ask you was that the best play? Well, IMHO no. He left that ball there as a duck and that is usually bad news.

I do play for every millimeter and I have won far more games playing for that millimeter that I have lost games trying to get that extra millimeter. Everybody’s different but I enjoy the task of trying to gain that little advantage; to many people this is trivial and I understand that and that is just fine. If your one of those people who say “I hate one pocket” you are probably one of those people and there is nothing wrong with that this is just how I see it.

So does it ever happen to me that I just pick up the ball or tap the CB? It sure does, about 3 or 4 times in the last decade of competition. To those of you that this happens to a few times a year (or a couple of times a season) I would suggest that you look over that table a little more closely before you decide to do this, I purposely foul all the time; but almost never tap the CB or pick it up and hand it to them.

pooltchr
03-14-2011, 10:14 AM
JJF
I agree that it is rare that just giving up BIH is the best option, but if shooting is going to open up the table for your opponent, it can be the best option.

You also have to consider the shooter's skill level. As I said, I have coached players to pick up the cb, simply because, for them, it really was the best option.

As in all shots, you need to evaluate all your options, and choose the best one. In come cases, picking up the cb and handing it to your opponent may well be the best option.

Steve

JJFSTAR
03-14-2011, 10:17 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree that it is rare that just giving up BIH is the best option, but if shooting is going to open up the table for your opponent, it can be the best option.
</div></div>

Yup as I said I have done it myself 3-4 times in the last 10 years.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You also have to consider the shooter's skill level. As I said, I have coached players to pick up the cb, simply because, for them, it really was the best option.
</div></div>

So have I, but my post is so long I probably lost some people as is; adding to it I thought would be ridiculously verbose, but you’re right on target you have to consider your skill level also.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As in all shots, you need to evaluate all your options, and choose the best one. In come cases, picking up the cb and handing it to your opponent may well be the best option.
</div></div>

I agree, not to sound smart but “that’s what I said”.

Fran Crimi
03-14-2011, 11:40 AM
Technically it's considered poor sportsmanship to pick up the cue ball during play (unless you have BIH), and can result in automatic loss of game. However, over time it's been more and more accepted. I still don't do it in order to avoid any confusion. If I want to hand over the cb to my opponent, I just tap the ball with my tip and let my opponent take BIH, if it's that type of game.

Another way to do it is to tap the cb with your tip, then pick up the cb and hand it to your opponent. At that point it's showing a courtesy as opposed to poor sportsmanship.

bradb
03-14-2011, 11:41 AM
I have only done this once myself.

My stripes were all in good position and my opponents solids were'nt when he managed to block me between his ball and the rail. I saw no advantage in moving his blocked ball away so handed him the QB. I told him what I was going to do first before I picked it up to avoid any argument. Brad

tatcat2000
03-15-2011, 12:30 AM
No, no and no.

Illegal in BCAPL play. First offense is warning in addition to the foul, second and subsequent offenses are loss of game. BCAPL Rule 1.40(b) applies.

In WSR, illegal under Rule 6.6, further specified by the last sentence of 6.6 as UC and a serious foul, penalty at the discretion of the referee.

I don't know how to attach disgrams or use Cue Table here, but it wouldn't take me more than a few seconds to draw you a diagram of a layout where simply picking up the ball would result in a horribly unfair advantage for a player when, on the other hand, being forced to put tip to ball would likely cost them the game.

We play by striking the cue ball with the cue tip - not our hands or the ferrule or shaft (intentionally). Picking up the ball is not in the spirit of the game. It doesn't matter whther or not it is risky to tap the ball an inch or two based on the table layout - the rule has to be the same regardless. 99.9% of the time, you can't write a different rule to cover every conceivable table situation - one rule must apply regardless of the situation. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

<span style='font-size: 8pt'> * The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. <u>The Official Rules of the BCAPL</u> is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules. </span>

pooltchr
03-15-2011, 06:14 AM
Wow, and there you go. Different leagues...different rules.

Steve

JJFSTAR
03-15-2011, 09:09 AM
Thanks tatcat

bradb
03-15-2011, 01:22 PM
You learn something new every day!

I can imagine a situation where an opponent has the QB surrounded with his own balls and should the QB be removed would not leave a shot on, so I can see the need for forcing the shooter to try and escape.

Chopstick
03-15-2011, 03:58 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Usually there is SOMETHING you can do to improve your position or worsen theirs.
</div></div>

Absolutely right. Total capitulation does not win games. You are also telling your opponent exactly what you can not handle so guess what he is going to be doing to you from then on. Every turn at the table, make a fight of it. There is always something that the other guy does not want you to do.

Fran Crimi
03-15-2011, 04:47 PM
Just to clarify, BCAPL rules are not the same as the rules in the BCA rule book. The rules in the BCA rule book are World Standardized Rules. It's always unclear when someone asks a question about BCA rules because sometimes they mean the BCA and sometimes they mean the BCAPL. The BCAPL is a privately owned league. WPA rules are used in WPA sanctioned International Pro Competition events.

tatcat2000
03-15-2011, 09:34 PM
I also quoted WSR in the second paragraph of my response. If you will read my signature, long though it may be, you will find the details concerning BCAPL not being WSR and vice versa.

The effect of picking up the CB is essentially the same in both sets of rules - penalties may differ slightly, based on the ref's/TD's feelings under WSR, whereas they are specified in BCAPL. Bad news either way - worse than your average foul. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Buddy

Fran Crimi
03-16-2011, 07:59 AM
Your response to him was much too intelligent for me to read all the way through. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

I wasn't criticizing you. I was just stating it in simplest terms for the poster that BCAPL rules are not BCA rules, so it depends on which rules he was referring to.

tatcat2000
03-17-2011, 01:33 AM
My god - that is the first time anyone has accused me of being intelligent.../forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Seriously though...thanks. I often come off as being snippy when that is not my intention. My sincere apologies if I seemed so.

I feel your pain regarding WSR vs. BCAPL. It is a looooooong struggle.

Buddy

bradb
03-17-2011, 04:28 PM
This is an example Tat mentioned above. Its solids turn to shoot and he is totally hooked. If solids picks up the QB and concedes ball in hand, stripes will have no shot or a chance for a safety no matter where he places the QB. If I were stripes I would insist that solids at least attempt to escape by tapping the QB which might result in bumping something out for a shot.

I'm wondering what either league would do here in this situation that would benefit solids by picking up the QB and conceding ball in hand? Brad


http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/brad1943/Ballblock.jpg

pooltchr
03-17-2011, 05:21 PM
Your link doesn't work, but given the BCAPL rule, I think it would be easy to just touch the tip to the cue ball. I've seen it happen numerous times by accident where the cue ball hardly moves at all, which is a BIH foul.
Also, when you do foul like that, is it unsportsmanlike to pick up the cue ball and hand it to your opponent after the foul? Don't most players call fouls on themselves?

Steve

bradb
03-17-2011, 05:25 PM
I fixed the link.

In the example shown even the slightest touch might improve stripes position. Brad

pooltchr
03-17-2011, 06:35 PM
I would probably shoot straight into the rail, and probably foul by pinching the cb against the rail.

Steve

bradb
03-17-2011, 06:58 PM
Yes, that would constitute a play on the QB. Hopefully by forcing solids to do that he might misjudge the delicate hit. In a tight match nerves could come into play, at least that way stripes has some sort of hope.

SpiderMan
03-18-2011, 12:26 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I fixed the link.

In the example shown even the slightest touch might improve stripes position. Brad </div></div>

I'd just touch my tip to the CB, probably in a way to double-hit "foul" against the rail. Then I'd watch carefully as my opponent picked up the ball - if he touched one of the stripes, I'd get ball-in-hand.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
03-18-2011, 12:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no doubt about calling a foul...if you pick up the cue ball, it is a foul. You are giving up ball in hand. The strategy being, do you disturb the other balls before giving up ball in hand, or just pick it up. You could just as easily touch the cue ball with the tip of your cue. Same result. Foul, BIH, and leave the table the way it is.
Steve </div></div>

Handing your opponent the ball without attempting contact is seldom going to be a good tactical move, even if it does not incur a penalty beyond the already-imminent ball-in-hand.

First, if you're not completely trapped but still certain to foul, you can often "foul constructively" by using the shot to worsen your opponent's table position.

Second, if you are completely trapped and don't want to spread the balls, touch the CB with your tip and LET YOUR OPPONENT PICK IT UP. Sometimes a shaky hand combined with a tight situation will cause him to "bump" one of the surrounding balls. If that happens, he has fouled, and the tables are turned because you now have ball-in-hand.

SpiderMan

tatcat2000
03-20-2011, 12:55 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...when you do foul like that, is it unsportsmanlike to pick up the cue ball and hand it to your opponent after the foul?...Steve </div></div>

No - quite the opposite. Polite, but certainly not required. Once the initial foul has occurred and the balls have come to rest, the inning is over and no further penalty would be appplied for touching the CB to hand it or move it to the offended player.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sometimes a shaky hand combined with a tight situation will cause him to "bump" one of the surrounding balls. If that happens, he has fouled, and the tables are turned because you now have ball-in-hand.</div></div>

In BCAPL play, not true if it is only a single ball that is disturbed. BCAPL Rule 1-38-3 applies:

<span style="color: #000099">"Immediately after a foul, when you are picking up the cue ball the first time to take ball in hand (as opposed to placing the cue ball or picking it up again for successive placements before the next shot), the provisions of Rule 1.33.1 apply to touching or disturbing a single object ball with the cue ball or your hand. You may request that a referee pick the cue ball up for you immediately after a foul."</span>

No such provision is stated in WSR, but I would not put it past some refs/TD's to make a similar decision...

Buddy

Chopstick
03-23-2011, 07:10 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I fixed the link.

In the example shown even the slightest touch might improve stripes position. Brad </div></div>

I'd just touch my tip to the CB, probably in a way to double-hit "foul" against the rail. Then I'd watch carefully as my opponent picked up the ball - if he touched one of the stripes, I'd get ball-in-hand.

SpiderMan </div></div>

See how he is. Try fading that action for 40 years. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

I would jack straight up on the cue ball and play a masse towards the one ball. You might take out the duck, have a reasonable chance of hitting the 8 ball and send two or three balls around the table to get into trouble.

Back in 88 at the Tennessee Nine Ball open I put a guy in the same position. He shot straight into the rail. The cue ball popped straight up into the air landed on top of the rail ran down the rail into the corner pocket still on top of the rail bounced off the far point of the pocket, hit the one ball which went one rail into the nine ball into the far corner pocket and won the game. I won the toss on that match and threw a six pack on the guy from the snap. Then he pulls off that shot. I wound up losing the match on the hill. Never underestimate the effect of confounding your opponent.

Deeman3
03-23-2011, 08:15 PM
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Never trust a spider!

bradb
03-25-2011, 06:54 PM
I think I would lay awake nights thinking about that loss. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cry.gif

Brad