PDA

View Full Version : Shooting an object ball



Bambu
04-10-2011, 10:41 AM
Say you have a situation where your opponent is on 2 fouls in 9 or 10 ball. Instead of shooting the cue ball for a typical 3rd safe, you shoot an object ball to completely bury your opponents next shot. Though your opponent now has ball in hand, he has to make a jump shot to hit the top of his object ball.

So, would intentionally shooting an object ball be legal? Dirty?
If somebody did that to me, I think I would be baffled.

Sid_Vicious
04-10-2011, 11:41 AM
I am very interested in player's answers to this. We hardly ever play 3-fouls here, but if it isn't deemed illegal(I hardly see how it can be, since screwing the player with a conventional safe for the third foul is legal), how it can be anything but great strategy. If it's legal, then how, in 9B, can ethics and dirty be acknowledged? sid

tatcat2000
04-10-2011, 01:45 PM
In BCAPL play, the act of intentionally contacting an object ball directly with the cue tip is defined as UC by the third paragraph of BCAPL Applied Ruling 1.45, Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

Under World Standardized Rules, the OP's act is addressed by WSR 6.6, Touched Ball, and further defined by the last sentence of 6.6 as UC.

Under either rule set the penalty, by rule, is at the discretion of the referee. Given the OP circumstances I seriously doubt that any competent referee would issue anything less than loss of game.

Can't answer for play that is not BCAPL or WSR.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

<span style='font-size: 8pt'> * The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. <u>The Official Rules of the BCAPL</u> is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules. </span>

Bambu
04-11-2011, 07:15 AM
Thanks Cat. The thing is, I dont even know what rule set I use when I play. We use "predator rules" but I guess they arent really a rule set. So what are "texas rules?" I never heard anyone around here calling BCA rules, only texas.

Fran Crimi
04-11-2011, 08:05 AM
Doesn't matter what set of rules are used. It's considered unsportsmanlike conduct and should result in loss of game. Unfortunately, if you have league operators or TD's who aren't informed, they may not see it as unsportsmanlike or might not issue a harsh enough penalty.

04-11-2011, 10:42 AM
This situation actually happened at the World Pool Championships, one year. I think it was Vilmos Foldes that did just that, to try to 3 foul his opponent. If I remember right, the opponent found the OB completely buried, so he took BIH and jumped the CB on top of the covered OB, making a good hit.


Eric

pooltchr
04-11-2011, 11:03 AM
Bambu,
Texas express rules were developed several years ago when the Texas Express tour started. Randy Goettlicher was the force behind that whole tour. You might be able to learn more by contacting him.

Try sending a PM to BCA Master Instr

You will also find the complete TE rules here:

http://web.me.com/bigc057/EXTRAS/POOL_TOURNEY_files/TexasExpress9-Ball-Rules.pdf


Steve

Sid_Vicious
04-11-2011, 12:20 PM
IMPO, the 3-foul rule should go by the wayside just like roll out after every shot, and eliminating the kitchen/dirty/clean-shots before BIH was put into place. I am happy 3-foul is not hardly used here locally, and always reject the idea when it is offered. jm2c sid

pooltchr
04-11-2011, 12:35 PM
I have mixed feelings on that one. If a guy can play 3 lock-up safeties in a row, that should be rewarded...but on the other hand...getting BIH 3 times in one game really should be enough for most good players to run out.
Steve

BCA Master Instr
04-11-2011, 01:20 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bambu,
Texas express rules were developed several years ago when the Texas Express tour started. Randy Goettlicher was the force behind that whole tour. You might be able to learn more by contacting him.

Try sending a PM to BCA Master Instr

You will also find the complete TE rules here:

http://web.me.com/bigc057/EXTRAS/POOL_TOURNEY_files/TexasExpress9-Ball-Rules.pdf


Steve </div></div>


Texas Express 9-Ball Rules. We dabbled into one pocket but that was all. The driving force was John McChesney. It was his vision, Robin & I were active partners.

randyg

Bambu
04-11-2011, 01:52 PM
Thanks for all the input, everyone. I remember Texas rules taking effect in NY, early 90's maybe. What that really meant wto us was all balls stay down, and BIH anywhere on the table.

I have never heard a rule where someone could get disqualified for taking the wrong shot. Then again, I could also see how it could be considered dirty.

Sid_Vicious
04-11-2011, 02:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have mixed feelings on that one. If a guy can play 3 lock-up safeties in a row, that should be rewarded...but on the other hand...getting BIH 3 times in one game really should be enough for most good players to run out.
Steve </div></div>

What if the guy rolls himself hard once and or scratches? I don't really know if that is still in the 3 foul string, but I assume so. That would be unfun for many of the locals who run against, being the B+ to A- people. Frankly I should be more in favor for the 3F. I play better than decent safes, and my luck factor for rolling stupid would be pure unhappiness if I was shooting myself. I still don't like the 3F.

But tell me so I will know, is a scratch(such as the break, but not limited) start the 3F string one of the three if the opponent can cause the second, and or the 3rd with their skill on the lockup(s)? Like I stated, I maybe played 3F 2-3 times in 20 years, so I don't know the specifics. sid

pooltchr
04-11-2011, 02:56 PM
Yes, if one player scratches on the break, that would be the first. Now, his opponent need only force two more consecutive fouls.

Usually, when I've seen it happen, it is attempted immediately following the first foul. At that point, you only have to force two more, which is a little easier.

I will admit, I played a guy in a tournament who was obviously trying at every opportunity to go for the 3F. I asked him if he was that afraid of shooting against me. After that, he was too embarassed to try it again.

Steve

Sid_Vicious
04-11-2011, 03:01 PM
Thanks. sid

Rich R.
04-12-2011, 07:31 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tatcat2000</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In BCAPL play, the act of intentionally contacting an object ball directly with the cue tip is defined as UC by the third paragraph of BCAPL Applied Ruling 1.45, Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

Under World Standardized Rules, the OP's act is addressed by WSR 6.6, Touched Ball, and further defined by the last sentence of 6.6 as UC.

Under either rule set the penalty, by rule, is at the discretion of the referee. Given the OP circumstances I seriously doubt that any competent referee would issue anything less than loss of game.

Can't answer for play that is not BCAPL or WSR.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

<span style='font-size: 8pt'> * The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. <u>The Official Rules of the BCAPL</u> is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules. </span>

</div></div>
Maybe I am misunderstanding the situation, but I don't believe the OP meant that an object ball was hit with the cue tip to bury the next ball in sequense. I believe he meant that the cue ball was hit into an out of sequense object ball, to bury the correct sequense object ball. In this case, the shooter would accept one foul himself and give the opponent, with two fouls, ball in hand.
If I have the situation correct, I don't see how this could be considered UC.

Sid_Vicious
04-12-2011, 09:20 AM
That was my first take too Rich, which was why I made my first response on the subject. I think though that the player was in fact poking directly at the OB first, not the CB. If you are right, then I go back to what I said first,,,totally OK. sid

Deeman3
04-12-2011, 09:42 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, if one player scratches on the break, that would be the first. Now, his opponent need only force two more consecutive fouls.

Usually, when I've seen it happen, it is attempted immediately following the first foul. At that point, you only have to force two more, which is a little easier.

I will admit, I played a guy in a tournament who was obviously trying at every opportunity to go for the 3F. I asked him if he was that afraid of shooting against me. After that, he was too embarassed to try it again.

Steve </div></div>

I lost a game on 3 fouls at DCC this year, the first time in years I remember doing so!

Fran Crimi
04-12-2011, 04:38 PM
I thought that he meant that the cue tip struck the ob directly. Hey Bambu! Can you clarify what you meant?

mlwjoplinmo
06-09-2011, 04:08 AM
I've played and watched quite a bit of three foul. Saying that ball in hand three times should be enough is a terrible statement. I say that not meaning to be disrespectful of your post. First of all, you don't get ball in hand three times, you get it twice. The third foul results in loss of game for your opponent. The main difference in three foul and the now more conventional way of play is this; players start thinking about percentages more. Percentages of getting the break out and a shot after. Most often when a game is won playing three foul there is multiple ball tie ups. The percentages would suggest that three fouling an opponent would be easier than running out. Those cluster of balls that are most likely present are great hiding places for the cue ball.