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Gayle in MD
05-07-2011, 07:12 AM
Saudi Arabia King Abdullah Bin Abdul-Aziz

Saudi Arabia said it hopes the killing of militant leader and former Saudi citizen Osama bin Laden will boost efforts to fight terrorism. According to the Associated Press, the Saudi Press Agency carried an official statement Monday expressing hope that bin Laden's death with be a "step that supports the international efforts against terrorism."





Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari
"Osama bin Laden's death illustrates the resolve of the international community including Pakistan to fight and eliminate terrorism. It constitutes a major setback to terrorist organizations around the world," the Pakistani government said in a statement. "It is Pakistan's stated policy that it will not allow its soil to be used in terrorist attacks against any country. Pakistan's political leadership, parliament, state institutions and the whole nation are fully united in their resolve to eliminate terrorism."

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Palestinian Hamas Leader Ismail Haniyeh

"We condemn the assassination and the killing of an Arab holy warrior," Ismail Haniyeh told reporters, according to Reuters. "We regard this as a continuation of the American policy based on oppression and the shedding of Muslim and Arab blood."</span>


Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas"Getting rid of bin Laden is good for the cause of peace worldwide but what counts is to overcome the discourse and the methods -- the violent methods -- that were created and encouraged by bin Laden and others in the world," Palestinian Authority (PA) spokesman Ghassan Khatib is quoted by Reuters as saying

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Former Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf

"America coming to our territory and taking action is a violation of our sovereignty. Handling and execution of the operation is not correct," Musharraf reportedly said in an interview. "The Pakistani government should have been kept in the loop...foreign troops crossing the border into Pakistan will not be liked by the people of Pakistan. U.S. forces should not have crossed over into Pakistan." </span>comments(1486)

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>
Afghan President Hamid Karzai

"Once again I call on NATO to say that the war on terror is not in Afghanistan. Osama was not in Afghanistan: they found him in Pakistan," Karzai said said of the discovery that the world's most wanted man was holed up in a garrison town in Pakistan, according to the Wall Street Journal. "The war on terror is not in Afghan villages, the war on terror is not in the houses of innocent Afghans, the war on terror is not in the bombardment and killing of Afghan children and women, but in the safe havens of terrorism outside Afghanistan."</span>


Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari

"We, like many people in the world, are delighted to see an end to his mentality and his devious ideology," Zebari is quoted by the BBC as saying. "Iraqis suffered a great deal at the hands of this man and his terrorist organization. Thousands of Iraqis were murdered and killed because of his ideologies. We as Iraqis have suffered enormously as a result of Al Qaeda and its leader."
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<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood

Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood condemned Osama bin Laden's killing as an "assassination." A statement released Monday said the group "is against violence in general, against assassinations and in favor of fair trials," according to the Associated Press.
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British Prime Minister David Cameron

"Of course, it does not mark the end of the threat we face from extremist terror. Indeed, we will have to be particularly vigilant in the weeks ahead. But it is, I believe, a massive step forward," Cameron is quoted by Haaretz as saying in a televised statement, while noting that bin Laden's death would be "welcomed right across our country."
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Turkish President Abdullah Gul

Gul said the news should serve as a warning to terrorist leaders elsewhere, according to the Wall Street Journal. "This news shows that the fate of terrorists and the leaders of terrorist organizations is to be caught in the end, dead or alive," he said. "That the most dangerous and sophisticated [terrorist] leader was caught this way, should be a lesson to everyone."

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev

"The Kremlin welcomes the serious success the United States achieved in the war against international terrorism," Medvedev said in a statement, according to the AFP. "Retribution inevitably reaches all terrorists." He went on to say Russia was "ready" to step up its cooperation with the U.S. in the fight against international terror networks: "Only a joint and united fight against global terrorism can achieve substantial results. Russia is ready to step up this type of cooperation

Former U.S. Secretary Of State Condoleezza Rice

"This clearly shows that the president and his team did a superb job of pulling all of this together," Rice is quoted by the AFP as saying."I'm very grateful to them for closing this chapter." She went on to call the successful weekend military strike on bin Laden's compound "a good story for continuity across two presidencies...what it really shows is that the United States will be persistent and patient. Our reach is long. You may be able to harm us, but you will ultimately not defeat us."

Former U.S. President George W. Bush

"This momentous achievement marks a victory for America, for people who seek peace around the world, and for all those who lost loved ones on September 11, 2001," Bush said in a statement as quoted by CBS. "The fight against terror goes on, but tonight America has sent an unmistakable message: No matter how long it takes, justice will be done."


Former U.S. President Bill Clinton

"This is a profoundly important moment not just for the families of those who lost their lives on 9/11 and in Al Qaeda's other attacks but for people all over the world who want to build a common future of peace, freedom, and cooperation for our children," Clinton said in a statement, according to USA Today. "I congratulate the President, the National Security team and the members of our armed forces on bringing Osama bin Laden to justice after more than a decade of murderous Al Qaeda attacks."

German Chancellor Angela Merkel

Merkel described the event as a "decisive strike against Al Qaeda," via her spokesman Steffen Seibert, according to Dow Jones. "Last night, the forces of freedom were successful." Still, international terrorism "has not yet been defeated", and "we will all have to remain alert."

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French President Nicolas Sarkozy

"The scourge of terrorism has suffered a historic defeat but it's not the end of Al Qaeda," Sarkozy warned in a statement, according to Haaretz. "The combat against the criminals who claim to form part of it should continue without respite and unite all the states who are victims of these crimes."
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Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard

"I welcome the death of Osama bin Laden," Gillard said. I welcome this news." She went on to confirm the government is updating travel advisories, warning Australians abroad to "exercise enhanced vigilance in terms of their personal security."

Indian Home Minister P Chidambaram

The killing of Osama bin Laden near Islamabad is proof that "terrorists belonging to different organizations find sanctuary in Pakistan," Indian Home Minister P Chidambaram is quoted by the BBC as saying.



[b] <span style='font-size: 17pt'>Looks like we have a few here who fully support the views of our enemies..... </span>

Perky
05-07-2011, 08:49 AM
In the development of a personal philosophy to live your life by and in the making of important decisions... it is always essential to look around and be aware of the quality of the individuals who are standing with and beside you. If you find they are individuals of honour, high morality and character you can be assured you are in good company and you are on stable, high ground. However, if you find yourself surrounded by hate mongers, bigots and individuals of low moral standing... if you were to look down, you would no doubt see your feet deeply mired in the muck of the gutter... you would be well advised to re-evaluate your own thinking priorities... as self-indulgent political expediency is surly blinding you from the truth.

Gayle in MD
05-07-2011, 09:52 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Perky</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the development of a personal philosophy to live your life by and in the making of important decisions... it is always essential to look around and be aware of the quality of the individuals who are standing with and beside you. If you find they are individuals of honour, high morality and character you can be assured you are in good company and you are on stable, high ground. However, if you find yourself surrounded by hate mongers, bigots and individuals of low moral standing... if you were to look down, you would no doubt see your feet deeply mired in the muck of the gutter... you would be well advised to re-evaluate your own thinking priorities... as self-indulgent political expediency is surly blinding you from the truth. </div></div>


Would you care to explain how in the world anything you have written, has anything at all to do with my post?


RU yet another AZ attacker?

Another LWW alias?

Another RW radical, who thinks that killing bin Laden, on sight, was somehow illegal, after he slaughtered thousands of people all over the world?

I see no relevance of this post of yours, to my thread.

G.

pooltchr
05-07-2011, 10:08 AM
Please excuse Gayle. When she is confronted with anything she can't comprehend, her immediate reaction is to attack.

You'll get used to her if you spend any time here.

Steve

LWW
05-07-2011, 11:54 AM
She is simply giving cover to one of her sock puppet's new alias.

Perky
05-07-2011, 12:19 PM
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Gayle... I'm certainly no Whining Weenie like LWW. I think you get attacked so much for your opinions on here that perhaps you may at times be oversensitive to the possibility of another attack. Not the case here... we're very much on the same side. The relevancy of my post is really to the heart of your last line...

"Looks like we have a few here who fully support the views of our enemies..... "

I am very much a supporter of President Obama. The elimination of ObL should be seen is a victory for all Americans and specifically for the Obama administration. Bush may have initially gotten the "get Obl" ball rolling but he hesitated in Tora Bora and failed to make a decision. After Tora Bora He also made the very clear statement that he no longer considered capturing ObL important and cut back on resources for the hunt of ObL. Obama made the capture or killing of ObL a priority... put the appropriate resources to that effort... and in under three years gave the order that put an end to bin Laden's personal evil on this planet. Credit where credit is due... the bin Laden buck stopped with Obama.

That anyone here or anywhere should attempt to minimalize this significant accomplishment... brings into question whether their loyalties are more to their own misguided selfish political self-interests rather than to America and freedom from terrorists.

wolfdancer
05-07-2011, 01:29 PM
what exactly are you trying to imply her?
This is another Republicans/good...Democrats/evil ...claim?
You believe that just because she chooses to freely vote against
say, your party...you then claim she is mired in the gutter,because.... she is then in the company of hate mongers, bigots and individuals of low moral standing?
What a crock of ****.
Take your collar and your alb off, and look around.... the people you are condemning are as a group as good, as decent as your sides.
If Gayle is going to end up in Hell, it won't be because she voted Democratic, and against the morals charges majority

LWW
05-07-2011, 02:42 PM
http://goodbadandugly2.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/crazy-peeps2.jpg

wolfdancer
05-07-2011, 03:01 PM
Maybe he can make up his own mind, without the help of your usual
"I can insult Gayle safely, because of her age and health" remarks, to guide him.
I had erroneously made a "rush to judgment" concerning him. I thought he was another ASB transplant....but now I realize he is both fair minded and intelligent....both of which would disqualify him for admittance to your ....er, group.

Perky
05-07-2011, 03:15 PM
Whoa /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif be still my spinning head. Need to re-examine what I said... to see what you find offensive.

I stated I'm not a whining Weenie like LWW ...I have no respect for him. Was that offensive?

I stated the I wasn't attacking Gayle but rather supported and agreed with her. Was that offensive?

I stated I was a strong supported of President Obama, which would seem to imply I'm a Democrat and a liberal. Was that offensive?

I suggested it was only those on the far right fringe, for their own selfish political purposes & supporters of terrorists who might attempt to minimize the Obama administration's success at removing bin Laden... Was that offensive?

This certainly would NOT include Gayle.

You might want to re-read my original post... you used to actually like my other posts in the past when I spent more time here, particularly when I used to rake the Weenie over the coals with my photo-shopped images... often in your defense /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

eg8r
05-07-2011, 06:58 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Former U.S. President George W. Bush

"This momentous achievement marks a victory for America, for people who seek peace around the world, and for all those who lost loved ones on September 11, 2001," Bush said in a statement as quoted by CBS. "The fight against terror goes on, but tonight America has sent an unmistakable message: No matter how long it takes, justice will be done."


Former U.S. President Bill Clinton

"This is a profoundly important moment not just for the families of those who lost their lives on 9/11 and in Al Qaeda's other attacks but for people all over the world who want to build a common future of peace, freedom, and cooperation for our children," Clinton said in a statement, according to USA Today. "I congratulate the President, the National Security team and the members of our armed forces on bringing Osama bin Laden to justice after more than a decade of murderous Al Qaeda attacks."
</div></div>Agree 100%

eg8r

eg8r
05-07-2011, 07:01 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think you get attacked so much for your opinions on here that perhaps you may at times be oversensitive to the possibility of another attack. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That anyone here or anywhere should attempt to minimalize this significant accomplishment... </div></div>LOL, you might be overly sensitive to the point that you do not understand the difference between minimalizing the accomplishment and making sure the embellishments do not reach a crescendo.

eg8r

Perky
05-07-2011, 08:40 PM
LOL... back atcha /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif I realize how much it must totally suck these days to be one of the more extreme Republicans . Ya just gotta suck it up... you'll only have to put up with President Obama for a minimum of another 5 1/2 years /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

wolfdancer
05-07-2011, 09:27 PM
I have already written about my error re: your post, and apologize once again for the confusion on my part. I have come to expect expect each "new" member, to be either another new web alias for "the man with a thousand faces"/"the man who knew too much" (as, he believes),or has come over here to join in the purge by the right

pooltchr
05-07-2011, 09:35 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Perky</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL... back atcha /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif I realize how much it must totally suck these days to be one of the more extreme Republicans . Ya just gotta suck it up... you'll only have to put up with President Obama for a minimum of another 5 1/2 years /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif </div></div>

It probably doesn't suck anywhere near as much as it would to be a radical leftwing nutjob. I can't imagine waking up every day wondering how you will have to try and defend this administration. One victory will not overshadow the host of screw-ups we have seen in the last two years. May God help us if Obama gets a second term!

Steve

wolfdancer
05-07-2011, 10:21 PM
I believe God has already assisted him in being elected to his first term.
As all Presidents come under attack, by extremists from the opposition party, using your "nutwing" terminology, I still believe he will do just fine. Didn't Bush ride the 9/11 horse into a second term?
I'm sure that had Sarah been elected, OBL would had been forced to surrender peacefully, and we could have forgiven him for 9/11,
and given Haliburton a no bid contract to rebuild their infrastructure, and the compound, maybe even thrown in free HBO for life!!, but lacking her dynamic negotiating skills....President Obama opted to use the "Gunfight at the OK Corral" methodology.

pooltchr
05-08-2011, 09:19 AM
No, I don't think Bush rode the 9/11 horse to the white house. He won for the same reason Obama won...the other party's candidate sucked worse than the eventual winner.

And I know this is really difficult for you to understand, but Sarah was not ruinning against Obama. She would not have been POTUS, so that is just a lame attempt to make another jab at her. You are just following the party line, attacking the weaker part of the ticket. McCain might very well have won with a stronger second on the ticket. But the MSM, who were in the bag for Obama set out to completely destroy Sarah...and continue to do so in order to "keep her in her place", so to speak.

Steve

wolfdancer
05-08-2011, 09:31 AM
Sarah wasn't running for POTUS?....Damn these people that lww claims are spoon feeding the news to us...must have given us the wrong info, but according to your theory, nobody on the left, even if they are teaching political science at the University level....no lefty has a clue; not your amazing insight, nor your insider's info. You probably should have thrown your hat in the ring?
Who did run against President Obama then....was there someone else on the ticket?

pooltchr
05-08-2011, 09:39 AM
Your ignorance knows no limits! You really are clueless.

Look at your boy's political history. Every political victory he has, came by attacking the reputation of his opponent, not by campaigning on the issues. He is a champion mud slinger, and a complete failure as a leader.

Steve

wolfdancer
05-08-2011, 10:21 AM
You might also, when you are not lecturing on politics/and interpreting the news for others....check out Richard Nixon's own
election strategies. He defined "mud slinging"
In today's perilous times, I wonder how a "no issues" candidate was able to defeat candidates with strategies like Palin/McCain, and wasn't that ticket....above reproach?

pooltchr
05-08-2011, 11:03 AM
I believe it was McCain/Palin. You would love to believe it was the other way around, but that is just your ignorance shining through again.

And, for the record, I was never a big fan of Nixon.

Steve

Perky
05-08-2011, 11:13 AM
No problem... all is good.

Perky
05-08-2011, 11:29 AM
Lol... well I certainly have no doubt that you've got 5 1/2 years of sleepless nights ahead of you. Absolutely no sympathy from me for any of the the self-deluded few, attempting to create and then flaunt their own false self-fulfilling prophesy /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif Personally I'm going to sleep just fine knowing that the country is in such good hands /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I understand that in a recent pole... Republicans were given an opportunity to choose from all the possible potential Republican candidates to be their nominee for President.

The vast majority of them chose suicide.

wolfdancer
05-08-2011, 11:41 AM
I saw that posted on another site....and thought it was the best joke that I have read lately.

pooltchr
05-08-2011, 12:01 PM
I'm not sure I would blame them.

The fact that out of over 300 million people, we can't find anyone any better that the POS we have in there right now is a sad commentary. And anyone who can sleep well thinking that the country is in the hands of Obama just proves the old saying "Ignorance is bliss".

Steve

LWW
05-08-2011, 01:05 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe God has already assisted him in being elected to his first term.</div></div>

Another that deserves to live.

Perky
05-08-2011, 01:38 PM
"Ignorance is bliss"... pretty sure that's the new motto for the Republican Party.

...they're such a blissful bunch of happy cabbages :-)

pooltchr
05-08-2011, 01:55 PM
And the sheep who blindly follow the messiah of hope and change are far worse.

Steve

pooltchr
05-08-2011, 02:00 PM
You seem to fit in very nicely with the other sub moronic left wing dingbats around here.
Welcome to the forum!

Steve

wolfdancer
05-08-2011, 02:00 PM
McCain/Palin...you say? As John was rather silent, while Sarah was doing the mudslinging, I had figured that should that ticket prevail....he might have been our first acting President since RR
Look at the positive side....GWB's former Arbusto business partner, Salem Bin Laden's,....half-brother, is no longer a threat; although his organization remains a serious danger to our country.

LWW
05-08-2011, 04:19 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look at the positive side....GWB's former Arbusto business partner, Salem Bin Laden's,....half-brother, is no longer a threat; although his organization remains a serious danger to our country. </div></div>

Are you claiming that one man is also guilty of the crimes of his brother?

wolfdancer
05-08-2011, 04:59 PM
"Salem Bin Laden's,....half-brother, is no longer a threat; ..."
If you think that might not be a p.c. statement, address your complaints to someone that gives a ****
The "his" should have been understood to mean OBL's org. <s>Arbus</s> er, Al Qaeda

eg8r
05-08-2011, 07:19 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you'll only have to put up with President Obama for a minimum of another 5 1/2 years</div></div>LOL, lay off the dope.

eg8r

Perky
05-08-2011, 08:34 PM
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif "lay off the dope." ... or more appropriately... Lay off the dopes! Which is exactly what the country has been doing for the past 2 1/2 years and will assuredly continue to do for the next 5 1/2 years... LOL!! The Right has nothing but "dopes" to put forward... and nothing but more "dopes" in the wings as far as the eye can see. I feel your pain... lol /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif lol ...actually, no I don't... I just enjoy seeing your pain!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif But I am aware of how difficult it is for you righties to admit that you're totally screwed... and ever so totally screwed you are... for the, count em..1... 2... 3... 4... 5... & 1/2 years. I'm gonna love it as much as your gonna hate it.

As the plaintive lost soul wails of Weenie and all the sub-weenies of the right echos through the upcoming years. LOL

<span style='font-size: 23pt'>WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNIIIIIEEEEEE!!!</span>

LWW
05-09-2011, 02:43 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Salem Bin Laden's,....half-brother, is no longer a threat; ..."
If you think that might not be a p.c. statement, address your complaints to someone that gives a ****
The "his" should have been understood to mean OBL's org. <s>Arbus</s> er, Al Qaeda </div></div>

Why are you not answering the question? Was he a "THREAT" because his brother was?

LWW
05-09-2011, 02:44 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Salem Bin Laden's,....half-brother, is no longer a threat; ..."
If you think that might not be a p.c. statement, address your complaints to someone that gives a ****
The "his" should have been understood to mean OBL's org. <s>Arbus</s> er, Al Qaeda </div></div>

So you are now claiming Salem Bin Laden was a member of AQ?

Gayle in MD
05-09-2011, 08:10 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Perky</div><div class="ubbcode-body">:) Gayle... I'm certainly no Whining Weenie like LWW.


<span style="color: #990000">Glad to hear that, one of him, is already one too many. Sorry for the misjudgement, truly. </span>


I think you get attacked so much for your opinions on here that perhaps you may at times be oversensitive to the possibility of another attack. Not the case here... we're very much on the same side. The relevancy of my post is really to the heart of your last line...

"Looks like we have a few here who fully support the views of our enemies..... "

<span style="color: #990000"> That's good to know, we can always use another reasonable person around here, although, they usually don't last very long, considering we have a slew of unAmerican, US Government haters, who lack any ability to use critical thinking skills, and prefer, instead, to parrot idiots, like Beck and Rush, to slander our true patriots, and all those here, who don't agree with their radical views. </span>

I am very much a supporter of President Obama. The elimination of ObL should be seen is a victory for all Americans and specifically for the Obama administration.

<span style="color: #990000"> Tap, Tap, Tap. Considering how quickly the radical RW on this site, immediately tried to twist a huge success, into an irrational attempt to justify the Bush Administrations, law breaking, unAmerican acitvities, which had nothing to do with this demise of OBL, and the Bush Administration's failure on all levels of governing.


<span style='font-size: 20pt'>
As President Obama stated lst evening, "Anyone who thinks it was wrong to kill bin Laden, needs to have their head examined." </span>

That would surely be the required remedy, for several here, who immediately tried to twist this win, into something to use against our President's bravery, focus, and excellent decision making.

As we know, he was totally hands on during this whole process, for many, many MONTHs, including the preameters of the operation, that had to be fine tuned, and welll documented, before making his final dicision, even in the face of some division among top level advisors. A profile in courage, such as we haven't seen since JFK, IMO. </span>



Bush may have initially gotten the "get Obl" ball rolling but he hesitated in Tora Bora and failed to make a decision.

<span style="color: #990000"> Yeah, that was just more Cowboy bravado, which he never even meant, nor ever even followed through with, when OBL was cornered.

I actually think it was worse than a failure to make a decision, IMO, it was his policy, not to kill anyone in the bin Laden family, his own family's, close business partners, for decades.

I've studied the Bush family, all the way back to Prescott's business dealings with Hitler, and President Bush One, in bed with the bin Laden's, and the Saudi's, the latter, financing GWB, in his first business failure, in the Oil Industry, as ell as financing terrorist operations, and now we find that operational intelligence, wasn't even acted on, more than once, when Bush could have killed bin Laden, but then we have a whole history of Republicans, propping up dictators, like Saddam, and others, over the decades, and proof in the pictures of all of the hand holding and man on man kissing, going on between the Bush's and our enemies, over decades.

I'd like to see the whole damn family deported for crimes against America.

Tora Bora, was so obvious. bin Laden, was cornered, and Rumsfeld, and Franks, refused to send in air support. Does that sound like a logical run up to "Wanted! Dead or alilve!"

Bush gave that order. Anyone who thinks that decision, was made without direction from Bush, needs his head examined. </span>


After Tora Bora He also made the very clear statement that he no longer considered capturing ObL important and cut back on resources for the hunt of ObL.

<span style="color: #990000">That was VERY clear. All threats from al Q. and b. Laden, were minimized, and transferred over to Saddam, aka agressive Cherry picking and outright lies, which we now know, and have known for a very long time.

Saddam was no threat, he was a bluffer, just as ur to[ Intelligence told Bush, and we have loads of documented lies, by all in the Bush Administration, which proves it.

As Greenspan stated, Iraq, was about OIL, but not for us, for the Oil Industry, which has shown about the same amount of loyalty to our country, as Prescott displayed, while he was in business with Hitler.. </span>


Obama made the capture or killing of ObL a priority... put the appropriate resources to that effort... and in under three years gave the order that put an end to bin Laden's personal evil on this planet. Credit where credit is due... the bin Laden buck stopped with Obama.

<span style="color: #990000"> Absolutely and Bravo, to our brilliant President. And Bill Clinton, was the first President to recognize the coming threats, organized a Unit to focus solely on getting OBL, and alQaeda, which Bush/Cheney, quickly destroyed. Cheney's statements, "don't bring me anyting about al Qaeda, I'm ony interested in anything you can find about Saddam. Worst foreiign Policy decisions in the history of this coountry, according to five former Secretaries of STate. And 16 national Intelligence Agencies.

Those are the facts, and as usual, those are the facts that the right seeks to rewrite to suit their desperate attempt, to change their reputations from being war criminals, to trying to horn in on trying to take some of the responsibility, for President Obama's excellent judgemennt and successful decision to get bin Laden. One of the most obvious Republican Scams, of our times.

Bush deserves nothing, but to be hung, along side Rice, Rumsfeld and Cheney. All caught in outrageous lies, all of them documented.

President Obama, has shown a great deal of humility. Yet the right is attacking him, while he is praising all those who aided in this huge success, for which he has given credit, our brave Special Ops, and all of our Intelligence personel, who were so frustrated, from the start, with the Bush Administration's refusal to take the many warnings of our coming attack on 9/11, seriously, and hence, we lost thousands, and were then lied into the Bush Hubris that killed thousands more, in Iraq, who should never have even been targets. </span>

That anyone here or anywhere should attempt to minimalize this significant accomplishment... surely proves that if anyone uses the words, "Spoon Fed" they should be looking in the mirror, when they say it.

Welcome Aboard, friend. I hope you can withstand the personal insults, slander and attacks, which you will surely be subjected to, if you continue to write the truth, on this forum, which seems to have no monitor, at all, except in the case of banning Liberals, and ignoring even unlawful behavior, by Radical RW members, who prove more and more the depths they to which are willing to stoop, to misrepresent personal information, out of sheer lack of dignity, and decency, lies are his forte'.

Gayle in MD. </div></div>

Gayle in MD
05-09-2011, 08:36 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe God has already assisted him in being elected to his first term.
As all Presidents come under attack, by extremists from the opposition party, using your "nutwing" terminology, I still believe he will do just fine. Didn't Bush ride the 9/11 horse into a second term?
I'm sure that had Sarah been elected, OBL would had been forced to surrender peacefully, and we could have forgiven him for 9/11,
and given Haliburton a no bid contract to rebuild their infrastructure, and the compound, maybe even thrown in free HBO for life!!, but lacking her dynamic negotiating skills....President Obama opted to use the "Gunfight at the OK Corral" methodology. </div></div>

LOL, remember when he was writing that the deficits didn't matter?

That the left was scared of Sara Palin in the Presidential election?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

Now, he is writing that he just can't celebrate the death of the world's most hated person, OBL!!!!!


Uh, just one of three, of the world's most hated people, BTW, bin Laden, Bush and Cheney! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

pooltchr
05-09-2011, 08:45 AM
You and pperkey...two of a kind....both worthless....and woofie dreams to be like you someday.

If you actually think he is reasonable, you are suffering from a severe mental deficiency.

Steve

Gayle in MD
05-09-2011, 08:45 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Perky</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lol... well I certainly have no doubt that you've got 5 1/2 years of sleepless nights ahead of you. Absolutely no sympathy from me for any of the the self-deluded few, attempting to create and then flaunt their own false self-fulfilling prophesy /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif Personally I'm going to sleep just fine knowing that the country is in such good hands /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I understand that in a recent pole... Republicans were given an opportunity to choose from all the possible potential Republican candidates to be their nominee for President.

The vast majority of them chose suicide. </div></div>

LOL, BTW, I'm sincerely sorry to have misunderstood your post. Please forgive me, for thinking even for a moment, that you could be part of the Little Wonkie Weenie cabal around here.

I should have realized it from the start, since you're obviously, very intelligent, which would exempt you from being a member of the, shall we say, Palinban, Beckistan, Anti-American, terrorist protectors, who just couldn't celebrate bin Laden's death.

Unbelievable huh? Given his vicious, racist attacks on our brilliant President, he draws the line when it comes to celebrating the death of the man who slaughtered nearly three thousand Americans.

What a guy!

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

pooltchr
05-09-2011, 09:08 AM
The fact that you can celebrate the loss of human life tells the world all there is to know about you!

Steve

Gayle in MD
05-09-2011, 09:14 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The fact that you can celebrate the loss of human life tells the world all there is to know about you!

Steve </div></div>

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>That fact that you defend OBL, and condemn this President for killing him, armed or unarmed, exposes you as an enemy of America, and a desperate, partisan LEMMING!. </span>

pooltchr
05-09-2011, 10:41 AM
You really don't get it. I do not in any way defend OBL. What I do defend is the right to life for EVERYONE.

You obviously don't share my passion for human life.

You were outraged when you saw people celebrating the loss of life on 9/11...and justifiably so. But to turn around and celebrate any human death makes you no better than those who were the source of your outrage.

If those who celebrated 9/11 are scum, what does that make you?

Steve

Gayle in MD
05-09-2011, 11:24 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You really don't get it. I do not in any way defend OBL. What I do defend is the right to life for EVERYONE.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'> Yeah, you defend the right to life, for everyone, including the man who assassinated three thousand innocent Americans, you defend his right to life!


SICK! </span>


You obviously don't share my passion for human life.


<span style='font-size: 14pt'> NO, I don't share your passion for defending bin Laden, "right to life" He had no "right to life" and stating that you can't celebrate his death! What a total Crock pof repulsive BS! </span>

You were outraged when you saw people celebrating the loss of life on 9/11...and justifiably so. But to turn around and celebrate any human death makes you no better than those who were the source of your outrage.

If those who celebrated 9/11 are scum, what does that make you?

Steve </div></div>

You can't celebrate Obama, blowing OBL away, but you can back up Bush's torturing people!If those who celebrated 9/11 were scum, it would seem to me, that the question is, what does that make YOU!!!! For defending the Death To Americans, groups, and their radical statements against our country, the threats of the words of his followers!!!!

You're the one who has been critical of our country for killing the man who has led the whole "Death to Americans" campaign and mass murder of three thousand innocent AMericans, with continuing threats to our safety, for the last twenty years!BUT, Bush's torture program, A-OK with YOU, without any problem.

I think you're showing your lemmings stripes, bodaciously, and in doing so, you have exposed the real "spoon fed lemming" top one on the forum, IMO..

You can't celebrate assassinating OBL!!!Absolutely repulsive, to me, and I'm quite sure, to most Americans!

You talk about politicizing this momentous accomplishment,, then you go about bashing the President, with all of the attacks on his honor, and his decisions, and it's all because you can't stand the FACT, that the LYING pos "Cheer leader" was all hat, no cattle, dropped the ball on getting bin Laden, STATED HE DIDN'T EVEN THINK ABOUT THE LEADER OF OUR ATTACKERS, and our president, picked uP THE BALL, continued to identify the threat, correctly, not with a boatload of cherry- picked LIES, and ran the ball across the correct goal line, instead of picking it up and running the wrong damn way with it, like BUSH did.YOU'RE BOY BUSH SAID, "WANTED, DEAD OR ALIVE!" WTH DID YOU THINK HE MEANT??? I didn't hear any of your BS passion about every human life, back then!!!!

For once, admit it. You're nothing but a Liberal hating, a Terrorist defender!

You are putting bin Laden, on an equal with world leaders, saying, it wasn't fair to assassinate him?????

Saying, well, he did have a lot of followers?????!!!!!

How sicko is that!!!


And THEN YOU are accusing ME
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But to turn around and celebrate any human death makes you no better than those who were the source of your outrage.

</div></div>



What a sicko you are! You're a mixed up person, whose hatred cancels out any rational thinking, at all.

REPULSIVE!!!!

YOU'RE DAMN RIGHT I AM CELEBRATING OBL'S DEATH, I'D RATHER HAVE SEEN THEM THROw GASOLINE ON HIS ASS, AND LET HIM BURN, as SLOOOOOOOOWLY AS POSSIBLE! Even that, would have been too damn good for that SOB!

I suppose you didn't like when we killed Hitler, either. Worried about his right to life, I suppose?

What total BS.

You should write to all those children, who lost their parents, on 9/11, and telll them of your passion for bin Laden's right to life!

G

pooltchr
05-09-2011, 01:21 PM
So I guess we should just go ahead and make you judge, jury, and executioner. You decide who lives and who dies.

Sorry, but I believe that right needs to remain in the hands of a slightly higher authority.

But, you liberals always seem to think you know what is best for everyone. I'm not surprised.

Steve

Gayle in MD
05-09-2011, 02:51 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not sure I would blame them.

The fact that out of over 300 million people, we can't find anyone any better that the POS we have in there right now is a sad commentary. And anyone who can sleep well thinking that the country is in the hands of Obama just proves the old saying "Ignorance is bliss".

Steve </div></div>

<span style="color: #990000">Oh, so now famed pool teacher, from the south, thinks the man who got bin Laden, the man who restored our intenational honor, the man who was the President of the Harvard Law Review, who passed a health Care Bill, that both Republican and Democratic President's had failed to accomplish, in over forty five years, thinks this brilliant man, is a POS, according to our brilliant resident ignoramus!

We didn't need any proof of ignorance is bliss, around here, we've had you and LWW on here long enough to provide ample proof of that!

G.</span>

pooltchr
05-09-2011, 05:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
[color:#990000]Oh, so now famed pool teacher, thinks this brilliant man, is a POS, </div></div>

That's old news!

Why are you stalking my posts?????????????????

LOL


Steve

LWW
05-09-2011, 05:43 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Salem Bin Laden's,....half-brother, is no longer a threat; ..."
If you think that might not be a p.c. statement, address your complaints to someone that gives a ****
The "his" should have been understood to mean OBL's org. <s>Arbus</s> er, Al Qaeda </div></div>

So you are now claiming Salem Bin Laden was a member of AQ? </div></div>

Well woofie?

LWW
05-09-2011, 05:45 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
[color:#990000]Oh, so now famed pool teacher, thinks this brilliant man, is a POS, </div></div>

That's old news!

Why are you stalking my posts?????????????????

LOL


Steve </div></div>

Today she was threatening me with retaliation if I didn't change my opinions and posting style.

Pure extortion is what woofie, aitch, and stretch call it.

pooltchr
05-09-2011, 06:31 PM
No, it couldn't possibly be....they would never apply the same standards to one of their own that they apply to others.

They would find a way to justify it.

Steve

LWW
05-10-2011, 03:29 AM
It has long been a staple of Alinskyism to use nuisance suits, and the threat thereof, to silence truth.

Stretch
05-10-2011, 08:26 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It has long been a staple of Alinskyism to use nuisance suits, and the threat thereof, to silence truth. </div></div>

So that was your excuse for doing it to Gayle? Nice to know. At least you can articulate in detail what most folks would simply describe as being a 2 bit loser. When you're done projecting your sins on others can we get back to the topic? Maybe the few remaining moderates have something to say if holding their nose while typing does not proove too difficult. St.

pooltchr
05-10-2011, 08:53 AM
I don't recall Larry ever threatening to sue anyone. Can you refresh my memory?

Steve

Gayle in MD
05-10-2011, 10:19 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't recall Larry ever threatening to sue anyone. Can you refresh my memory?

Steve </div></div>

You also don't recall Bush breaking the Geneva Conventions. Lying to the American People. Breaking the FISA laws. Lying about his DWI. Saying he was not going to take part in Nation Building. Telling the world the MISSION ACCOMPLISHED, when he had actually gone off half cocked, and ran the ball in the wrong direction, up the field, scoring points for Iran, al Qaeda, North Korea, Russia, and running up the majority of our current debts.

I never mentioned sueing anyone, anyway. You and your twin weenie, like to make up lies, it's part of your M.O.

Get over yourself.

G.

Perky
05-10-2011, 10:27 AM
Hello Stretch... good to see you here. You may not recognize me under this new tag but had to create a new persona because the Chalk Board is never very good about letting anyone back in if they haven't posted in a long while. You'll likely remember me from the days long past when we had an opportunity to shoot a few at your old stomping grounds at Buddies in Petawawa. Buddies has now gone under due to very poor management... shame because it was a decent place to play. The Great Canadian Warehouse is the main place for pool in Petawawa now. I'm actually now President of the pool league there, "Ottawa Valley 8-Ball League" and have recently set up a web site for it if you want to check it out... ov8bl.com . Lot of good people in the league and the level of play is always improving. Hope your own game is staying sharp and if you ever should happen to make it back to this area, I'm easy to contact through the league.

Mostly just stopped back into this site to see what a few of the people I liked were up to and to kick a few of the weenies I don't care for, to the curb. Generally speaking I don't really feel it's worthwhile to spend too much time here with the "haters" from the right... not good for the spirit /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Perky
05-10-2011, 11:07 AM
No Problem Gayle /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif With all the, "over the edge" righties on here I can easily understand you caution. I always enjoyed our conversations when I used to post here more often. With the Obama administration's elimination of bin Laden I was curious as to what the conversation here might be. No big surprise that the haters from the right were more concerned with President Obama receiving credit due, than in ridding the world of of such evil... very telling about their backward thinking priorities. I can imagine how they would have crowed had Bush gotten bin Laden and had that been the case, Bush certainly would have deserved the credit. It clearly implies some combination of bigotry, racism and hypocritical thinking, for anyone to be inversely unable to now give President Obama that same praise.

Life is good for me here in Canada a land that actually realizes the benefits of universal health care... despite the obstruction of ignorance down there.. this will eventually become one of Obama's most appreciated legacies.

I'm now retired from teaching... wonderful career, including receiving the highest award for teaching Canada had to offer. Now enjoying returning to my own artwork... still painting but also indulging in some sculpture these days... perhaps I'll post a couple pics. Also now President of a local pool league, Ottawa Valley 8-Ball League... ov8bl.com if you want to check it out.

I may only stop in here occasionally... not good for the spirit to spend too much time with the "Haters of the Right". Did want to see what some of you I respected were up to... and of course kick the Weenie ans sub-weenies to the curb. Thought it was funny that despite the fact that I gave The Weenie the boot in virtually all my posts... his silence was a sign that he clearly remembered me /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

I may not post here a lot... but will still stop in periodically.

Stretch
05-10-2011, 11:49 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Perky</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hello Stretch... good to see you here. You may not recognize me under this new tag but had to create a new persona because the Chalk Board is never very good about letting anyone back in if they haven't posted in a long while. You'll likely remember me from the days long past when we had an opportunity to shoot a few at your old stomping grounds at Buddies in Petawawa. Buddies has now gone under due to very poor management... shame because it was a decent place to play. The Great Canadian Warehouse is the main place for pool in Petawawa now. I'm actually now President of the pool league there, "Ottawa Valley 8-Ball League" and have recently set up a web site for it if you want to check it out... ov8bl.com . Lot of good people in the league and the level of play is always improving. Hope your own game is staying sharp and if you ever should happen to make it back to this area, I'm easy to contact through the league.

Mostly just stopped back into this site to see what a few of the people I liked were up to and to kick a few of the weenies I don't care for, to the curb. Generally speaking I don't really feel it's worthwhile to spend too much time here with the "haters" from the right... not good for the spirit /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif </div></div>

Hell ya i remember you! Since you didn't mention your name i won't. Probably wise in this atmosphere of lies and deceit. Good job in steping up to handle the league stuff!

You must be retired by now are ya? I still got a few more years to put in myself. Then look out, i'll be getting back into all the leagues and tournaments again. Had to pack all that in when my job changed to doing nights so my game is a tad rusty. Still bat the balls around quite often on my home table but with no insentive other than casual play with friends from time to time, it's tuff. You get lazy lol

So i know where to find you now, that's good! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif I'll be heading to Petawawa the last 2 weeks of August for the girls annual cousins reunion. We'll be staying at my sisters on Black Bay road so i'll be sure to get in touch and get out for a few racks. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Great to here from you again Perks, TC. St.

pooltchr
05-10-2011, 01:50 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't recall Larry ever threatening to sue anyone. Can you refresh my memory?

Steve </div></div>


I never mentioned sueing anyone, anyway. You and your twin weenie, like to make up lies, it's part of your M.O.

Get over yourself.

G.
</div></div>

Is there anything between your ears besides air? Look closely, dearie...that comment was not directed to you! Of course, I understand that you think it's all about you all the time, but, heartbreaking as it might be, you are quite insignificant in the scope of things.

Steve

LWW
05-10-2011, 02:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It has long been a staple of Alinskyism to use nuisance suits, and the threat thereof, to silence truth. </div></div>

So that was your excuse for doing it to Gayle?</div></div>

And, of course, I never said that was my reason ... and my reason has been stated here before.

For the intelligence challenged ... Charlotte has passed herself off as a pro unionist. I presented evidence that she and her husband operate two non union businesses. She has represented herself as someone who has only bought US goods ... both personally and professionally since the 1970's. I presented evidence that they have earned a nice living peddling imported printer cartridges and products made from imported wood. She represented herself as a hater of the EEEVILLL rich. I have presented evidence that she is in fact a member of that class. She claimed she had never sued anyone. I presented evidence that she has.

Sorry that the truth pains you so.

LWW
05-10-2011, 02:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I never mentioned sueing anyone, anyway. You and your twin weenie, like to make up lies, it's part of your M.O.

G.
</div></div>

Who is the twin weenie and what are the made up lies?

LWW
05-10-2011, 02:09 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there anything between your ears besides air?

Steve </div></div>

Only what dear leader and the party put there.

wolfdancer
05-10-2011, 02:47 PM
Hear, hear!!!
Great post, well stated !!!!
Oddly enough, I ran across a raging debate on whether "hear,hear",
or "here,here" is the proper form.... for a split moment, I thought I had been redirected back to the CCB

Gayle in MD
05-11-2011, 10:08 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It has long been a staple of Alinskyism to use nuisance suits, and the threat thereof, to silence truth. </div></div>

So that was your excuse for doing it to Gayle?</div></div>

And, of course, I never said that was my reason ... and my reason has been stated here before.

For the intelligence challenged ... Charlotte has passed herself off as a pro unionist. I presented evidence that she and her husband operate two non union businesses. She has represented herself as someone who has only bought US goods ... both personally and professionally since the 1970's. I presented evidence that they have earned a nice living peddling imported printer cartridges and products made from imported wood. She represented herself as a hater of the EEEVILLL rich. I have presented evidence that she is in fact a member of that class. She claimed she had never sued anyone. I presented evidence that she has.

Sorry that the truth pains you so. </div></div>

Keep it up,.... I have never sold, created, marketed, nor had anything at all to do with printer cartridges!

Your posts about me, are not only lies, but laughably incorrect!

But as I stated, I'd advise you to back off. Every continuing threats, and lie you tell on here, is being documented.

In fact, that documentation, is the only reason why I am still here.

G.

bobroberts
05-11-2011, 10:57 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It has long been a staple of Alinskyism to use nuisance suits, and the threat thereof, to silence truth. </div></div>

So that was your excuse for doing it to Gayle?</div></div>

And, of course, I never said that was my reason ... and my reason has been stated here before.

For the intelligence challenged ... Charlotte has passed herself off as a pro unionist. I presented evidence that she and her husband operate two non union businesses. She has represented herself as someone who has only bought US goods ... both personally and professionally since the 1970's. I presented evidence that they have earned a nice living peddling imported printer cartridges and products made from imported wood. She represented herself as a hater of the EEEVILLL rich. I have presented evidence that she is in fact a member of that class. She claimed she had never sued anyone. I presented evidence that she has.

Sorry that the truth pains you so. </div></div>

Keep it up,.... I have never sold, created, marketed, nor had anything at all to do with printer cartridges!

Your posts about me, are not only lies, but laughably incorrect!

But as I stated, I'd advise you to back off. Every continuing threats, and lie you tell on here, is being documented.

In fact, that documentation, is the only reason why I am still here.

G. </div></div>
Thats pretty funny.What do you suppose to do with your documents.
Use them as toilet paper?
Ever heard of free speech?
Guess not?

LWW
05-11-2011, 03:11 PM
Then you have an issue with MD Yellow Pages and other websites which show your business as computer printing supplies.