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Sid_Vicious
09-16-2002, 09:39 AM
I need to find out what single layered water buffalo tip is the hardest, and possible the recommended tip in the WB line. I like hard tips, and the laminated tips have not lived up to the test of delamination so it's now time to switch away from layered tips. Thanks in advance, I do already know that I want the WB type and single layer(unless some layered tip manufacturer will reimburse my installer's fee if another layered tip breaks down)...sid

09-16-2002, 10:41 AM
I'm not sure what hardness the tip is in the WB line, but the one I use is a black WB (unless they are ALL black, then this is of little use), and it's definitely hard. It never mushrooms.

Troy
09-16-2002, 11:08 AM
Sid... Try contacting J&J America at http://www.jjcue.com/index.html
They carry single layer Water Buffalo tips.

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I need to find out what single layered water buffalo tip is the hardest, and possible the recommended tip in the WB line. I like hard tips, and the laminated tips have not lived up to the test of delamination so it's now time to switch away from layered tips. Thanks in advance, I do already know that I want the WB type and single layer(unless some layered tip manufacturer will reimburse my installer's fee if another layered tip breaks down)...sid <hr></blockquote>

Cueless Joey
09-16-2002, 11:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Joe Bloe:</font><hr> I'm not sure what hardness the tip is in the WB line, but the one I use is a black WB (unless they are ALL black, then this is of little use), and it's definitely hard. It never mushrooms. <hr></blockquote>]
They make a brown one too. That one is a little softer.
The black one is freakin hard. Good for breaking and jumping.

Rod
09-16-2002, 11:47 AM
Sid, I play with a hard WB. I got mine from Seyberts only because they come with a black fibre pad. Seyberts buys them from Schön. They are very hard and probably the same one that Joe made reference to. What they really are is the plain brown box With WB printed on the top. The ones on the website, from Troy, appears to show the med to med firm which are lighter brown in color. personally I like really those better. Since your after the hard ones be sure to ask for hard. They are very hard and a darker brown. When installed and the side burnished they appear to be black. They don't mushroom. Hey, there cheap too.

Sid_Vicious
09-16-2002, 11:59 AM
Thanks Y'all...I have access to the ones you mentioned Rod through Spiderman, and since I like the ones I already have of his on other experimental shafts of mine, that'll be the ones I go with again(with the WB on the box.) No sense in screwing with good results...sid

nAz
09-16-2002, 12:16 PM
Hi sid i have a friend who uses WB on his break cue.
tells me he made the tips even harder by soaking it in water for a few hours, then compresses the tip for two days, he swears by this and even gave me one of his modified tips but i have yet to use it... hope this helps

TonyM
09-16-2002, 01:17 PM
Within a box of WB brand water buffalo tips, you can find some pretty hard examples. So hard in fact, that I'd only reccommend them for breaking, not playing.

Sumo tips are also a very hard water buffalo tip.

Have you tried a Tiger laminated tip? I've never had any delamination problems. Same goes for the Moori.

Tony

BLACKHEART
09-16-2002, 01:22 PM
I agree with Troy. The water bufalo tips from J7J are the ones I put on all of the Qs I make. THEY ARE HARD &amp; do not mushroom...JER

SpiderMan
09-16-2002, 02:52 PM
Rod,

I've been buying my "WB" tips (sounds like same box as yours) from Atlas. They carry both a "brown" and a "black" variety. Are you saying that there is a hardness increase in the darker ones? I assumed it was just a personal-preference color thing, as the catalog doesn't say anything about a difference in hardness. I've only bought the blacks.

I like to use them with a pad also, but I've been doing my own pad attachment with epoxy because I know it will stay together. Some of the pre-padded tips I've used in the past were notorious for coming apart. The world's worst is Triumph, you can put the tip on and then pry it off again,
minus the pad.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
09-16-2002, 03:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr>

Have you tried a Tiger laminated tip? I've never had any delamination problems. Same goes for the Moori.


Tony <hr></blockquote>

I've also had good luck with Mooris staying together. I put a Moori Medium on a Meucci shaft about 18 months ago, played with it for about 6 months, sold it, and the new owner is still using it.

I've done about 8 or 10 Talismans for Sid, and he has reported three failures. We've looked at them under a lab microscope, and the Talisman failures are NOT delaminations (glue failures). Instead, they are the development of a "spongy layer" somewhere in the stack. It seems to take anywhere from one to six months for this to happen, and the bad layer is usually about three up from the ferrule. At first I thought it was because Sid liked to leave his tips tall, but after one failure I started shortening them by about 3 layers. This didn't alter the location of the failure.

SpiderMan

Rod
09-16-2002, 03:33 PM
Quote Spiderman, I've been buying my "WB" tips (sounds like same box as yours) from Atlas. They carry both a "brown" and a "black" variety. Are you saying that there is a hardness increase in the darker ones? "

Yes that is what I'm saying. Unfortunately in the world of pool cue tips, how they were made yesterday may not apply today. I don't have a box but I have seen and played with both by the same manufacturer. The dark ones are much harder. As I said you never know and I'm not current with what they are doing today but it still appears to be the same. Thats why I mentioned to Sid to be sure and ask or explain. LePro did that a few years ago. I was getting the mixed variety of LePros like everyone else did. On my next order I got 3 boxes and all of them was very dark brown and hard. Not as hard as the black tips you have but much harder all the same. You know or have a close idea as to how hard they are just by sanding the back. I believe Troy has both so he or Jer might chime in here.

TomBrooklyn
09-16-2002, 04:00 PM
Quote: TonyM:Within a box of WB brand water buffalo tips, you can find some pretty hard examples.<hr></blockquote>Tony,
How do you test for them for hardness? I realize you probably use some kind of indentation test.
-Tom

BLACKHEART
09-16-2002, 11:04 PM
I too get a quick idea about the hardness of the tips by sanding the back. I have made an experiment, that I will post separately, that you might try &amp; give me some feed back...JER

Tommy_Davidson
09-17-2002, 03:13 AM
&gt; I use the one piece Sumo,and can tell you from my observations,there isn't a tip out there that mushrooms less than these tips do. I've been using them on all my shafts,and not one has changed shape or mushroomed since installation. The ones I have are dark red,and have a unnatural looking "coating" on them before installation. While cutting them down,they have a mottled grayish-black look,and they seem to machine to a much finer appearance before sanding than other tips. I shaped mine on the lathe to about a dime radius,with a razor blade as opposed sandpaper or Willard's shaper,and stained the side with a Sharpie before sealing the sides with thin super glue for a highly polished effect. The super glue hasn't cracked YET after three years,which usually happens within an hour of play. NO MUSHROOMING AT ALL! They are extremely hard,but take chalk like an Elk Master. For whatever reason,Mueller's has assigned them a 77.3 medium hard rating,the Le Pro is 78.2,Triangle as 81.4 and the Talisman WB 76.3. None of these tips are anywhere close to a Sumo in hardness,as they all mushroom at least once after installation,and these haven't. They grab the ball nice too. Triangle tips are pretty good too,if squeezed in a vice and beat down a little with a cue ball or similar pounding object when shaping. On my break cue,I use an "abused" Triangle or Le Pro,and shape it nearly flat. By "abuse",I mean squeezed between two washers in a vice until the vice will not turn anymore without sliding a piece of pipe on the rod. I also hit it firmly several times with a smooth steel hammer while sitting on the back of the vice,and pound it several times after gluing the tip on. I then cut it down to where the sidewall of the tip is about 1/8 thick,and shape it to match the radius of the cue ball. As a finishing touch,I take the shaft outside and let it slide out of my fingers and bounce on a concrete slab like a side walk or concrete steps 20-30 times. When a tip like this fails,it comes apart in chunks,but other than a piece of phenolic,this as as hard as a tip gets. Tommy D.

TonyM
09-17-2002, 04:58 PM
Actually, I compress almost every tip in a vice slightly to pre-compress them before installation. After that I have afew methods to test for hardness. And yes, one is an indentation test.

Another is to stick the tip on a shaft and "bounce" it against a concrete floor (tip down). The harder the tip, the higher the bounce from a known height.

Some players will actually do a "bite" test. That's right, they actually bite the tip to get a sense of the hardness. They claim they can tell hard tips from medium this way.

I've also dropped the tips onto a glass surface and listened for the osund they make. A really hard tip will go "plink", while a softer tips will go "thud".

Tony
-master of sound effects...

09-17-2002, 09:01 PM
Spiderman has installed a WB branded(big letters on the box) tip already, waiting for a trim job. I assume that this tip will be at least as hard as two others he installed on a couple of EK-1 McDermott shafts, but who knows if the consistency is repeatable. I could end up in hardness heavan or mushy hell. Both of the McDermott shafts play really nice, but I gotta admit I wonder if there's another level of hardness that'll make my day. Either there is or else I'll find my limit and have nothing but a break tip on one of my shafts.

I've also talked with Tony and I'm considering trying one of the extra WBs coming off of the production line. That ought to settle an issue or two if my guess is right.

Thanks everyone for your advice, y'all are great!!!sid