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Sev
07-08-2011, 06:32 AM
We're from the government and we are here to help.

<span style="color: #000000">
<span style='font-size: 23pt'>US government openly admits arming Mexican drug gangs with 30,000 firearms – but why?
</span>
Mike Adams
Natural News
July 8, 2011

It is now a widely-reported fact that under the Obama administration, U.S. federal agents actively placed over 30,000 fully-functional weapons into the hands of Mexican drug gangs, then halted all surveillance and tracking activities of where those weapons were going.

This is not a conspiracy theory, nor a piece of fiction. It is now an openly-admitted fact that this was pulled off by the BATFE (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, more commonly called “ATF”) under orders from Washington. The program was called “Fast and Furious.”

Even Reuters is now covering the news and reporting how members of Congress are outraged to learn that this happened (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011…).

Details are also starting to leak about the cover-up inside ATF, which was led by the U.S. Attorney in Arizona, Dennis Burke, an Obama appointee

(http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/06/i…). The engineering of the illegal gun running went right up the chain of command to the director of the ATF, Kenneth Melson, who is now expected to resign. The real planning of this event went even higher up the chain of command in Washington, possibly all the way to Attorney General Eric Holder (http://dailycaller.com/2011/06/21/i…).

Among the firearms sold to the Mexican drug gangs were AK-47s, thousands of pistols and, remarkably, .50-caliber rifles which are typically used to disable vehicles or carry out sniper-based assassinations at extremely long ranges (up to two miles). The mainstream media is now reporting that these weapons are turning up in violent crimes being committed in Phoenix, Arizona. As an ABC news affiliate reports:

“According to the testimony of three Phoenix ATF agents, including Dodson, hundreds of weapons are now on the streets in the United States and Mexico, possibly in the hands of criminals. Dodson estimated the number could be as many as 1,800 weapons. He estimated agents in the Phoenix field division facilitated the sale of approximately 2,500 weapons to straw purchasers. A few hundred have been recovered.”

How the “Fast and Furious” program put thousands of weapons directly into the hands of Mexican drug gangs

Here’s how “Fast and Furious” worked: Under orders from Washington, ATF agents were specifically told to acquire these weapons using “straw” buyers in the USA, find new buyers in Mexican drug gangs, then sell the weapons and “lose track” of them. Although some agents raised concerns about the insanity, they were overruled by the higher-ups in Washington who wanted to pursue this policy for their own reasons. “It made no sense to us either, it was just what we were ordered to do, and every time we questioned that order there was punitive action,” said Phoenix Special Agent John Dodson.

But what could be the reasons for Washington initiating such a program in the first place? Why would the Obama administration actively send 30,000 sniper rifles, assault weapons and firearms into Mexico even while claiming to follow an anti-gun stance back in the USA?

To answer that question, you need to understand P.R.S — Problem, Reaction, Solution. It is the “playbook” that governments use to get what they want, which usually involves: 1) Disarming their populations, 2) Taking away all their rights and freedoms, and then 3) Ruling over their people as tyrants with complete power.

Precisely such an effort is now underway in the United States, led by the Obama administration which has repeatedly demonstrated itself to be an enemy of the U.S. Constitution and its Bill of Rights.

How Problem, Reaction, Solution really works

If you’re the U.S. government, you can’t just announce a new program to disarm the country, end the Bill of Rights and install yourself as the King. People won’t go for it if you try to sell it that way. Instead, you need to find a way to get people to BEG you to do all that.

So you need a way to put people in a state of mind where they are terrified of drugs, terrified of guns and terrified of the border violence — to the point where they insist that somebody in Washington do something about it.

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Therefore, you first need a way to cause the problem that results in all the violence that people react to. You effectively need to create violence and then wait for people to beg you to stop it.

This is where the Obama administration’s program to send 30,000 firearms into Mexico comes into play. If you want to cause gun violence and drug war violence, what better way to accomplish it than to just arm all the bad guys?

Think about it: 30,000 weapons in the hands of drug criminals! Then all you have to do is sit back and wait for all the violence to kick in. And it has kicked in — in huge numbers. Shootings on the border, kidnappings, armed conflict across the border with U.S. border agents, and so on. Violent crimes in Arizona are now being committed with these very same weapons the ATF trafficked into the hands of Mexican drug gangs.

As Judicial Watch president Tim Fitton explains, his belief is that Operation Fast and Furious was purely an anti-gun political ploy from the Obama administration, designed to put more guns into the hands of criminals as a justification for confiscating guns from all citizens. He adds, “I think another major part of this story is that the narrative of the Obama administration and the ATF is that, ‘wouldn’t it be great if we could tie guns, as part of our anti-gun agenda, to the Mexican civil war, as opposed to, you know, our lack of enforcement of the drug laws or failure to protect the borders.’” (http://dailycaller.com/2011/06/21/i…)

And here’s the real kicker: Of all the weapons now being confiscated by police in Mexico, an astonishing 70 percent came from the United States. So now you have a situation where the USA is actually arming the criminals in Mexico and destabilizing that country’s entire system of law and order. The drug gangs are at war with the police there, and thanks to thinks like U.S.-supplies AK-47s and .50-caliber sniper rifles, the drug gangs are winning!

ATF can now demand more power and bigger budgets

Getting back to the U.S. issue, if you’re the DEA or the ATF, you now have 30,000 more reasons to have your own budgets increased. There’s a wave of violence coming across the border! The drug gangs are out of control! They’re shooting back!

Well gee, I wonder why? It’s because the ATF actually sold them these 30,000 rifles under orders from Washington.

And now the Obama administration is, predictably, saying there’s so much “gun violence” in the Southern USA that new laws are needed to curb gun sales there.

Seriously? New laws? What about the 30,000 guns the ATF openly and admittedly sold to the Mexican drug gangs? Wasn’t that already a violation of law?

It all comes back to Problem, Reaction, Solution, you see. Want to keep the useless War on Drugs going a little longer? Just dump a few thousand pounds of cocaine into the hands of criminals and let ‘em run loose with it. Want to beef up the budgets of the ATF? Just distribute 30,000 illegal weapons into the hands of drug gangs and then sit back and wait for people to beg for your help. Want to justify a war on “terror” in the Middle East? Dream up some stupid story about Weapons of Mass Destruction and then launch a war.

For every power-hungry tyrannical agenda in Washington, there’s a false flag operation that will make it come true.

If the U.S. government would actively arm drug gangs, in what other ways might it betray the American people?

Now that you know the truth about how Washington put 30,000 guns into the hands of Mexican drug gangs, it naturally makes you start to wonder about the government’s involvement with things like vaccines.

Want to make people so afraid of infectious disease that they beg for vaccines? Just release an infectious disease into the population yourself! It’s a simple matter, really.

Want to get the public to beg for new food safety regulations? Just release e.coli into the food supply and then wait for the deaths to be reported in the news. All of a sudden people are demanding more food safety regulations.

Want to justify military imperialism and expansion? Just stage your own terrorist attack against your own country! Then magically find the passports of some terrorists at the scene of the crime and blame the whole thing on them.

When theory becomes fact

You see, all this used to exist solely in the realm of conspiracy theory. A few years ago, if you even suggested this kind of thing was going on, you were called a kook. But now it’s an established fact being reported by Reuters, Washington Post and other major news outlets. Now the U.S. government has been forced to admit that yes, it actively delivered 30,000 firearms into the hands of Mexican drug gangs and then intentionally stopped tracking where they went.

This is no longer conspiracy theory. It’s conspiracy FACT. And similar types of operations are being planned right now for other agendas the government has in mind: Taking away your Fourth Amendment rights, for example. How do you accomplish that? Just stage an airport terrorism attack, just like the one the TSA was caught rehearsing in Minnesota

(http://www.naturalnews.com/032458_T…).

Want to take away peoples’ Second Amendment rights? Just brainwash some low-IQ psychopath to walk into a shopping mall and start blazing away with fully automatic weapons that were provided to him by the ATF!

It’s simple, you see. Pick a topic, choose an agenda, then cause the problem yourself. Then sit back and wait for the reaction. Works every time.

The CDC pulled the same stunt back in the 1980′s with AIDS. At a time when the CDC was facing severe budget cuts, it actually hyped up the whole AIDS epidemic and started releasing complete scientific fictions as if they were fact. The disease mongering by the CDC caused widespread fear and panic across the country, earning it huge budget increases from the U.S. government.

This is all fully documented in the movie House of Numbers, by the way, using recorded video interviews from many of the key scientists involved in the whole fiasco who finally went on record to tell the truth. Almost everything you’ve been fed about AIDS is a fabrication or a distortion of the scientific truth. Watch these astonishing videos to see for yourself:

http://naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=D35F0…
http://naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=BE507…
http://naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=4FE73…


The American government is working AGAINST you, not for you

The point in all this is that much of what you see happening in the world today in terms of terrorism, the drug war, infectious disease and health care are just fabricated, staged events actually pulled off by the very people who stand to benefit from the reaction!

Suckers and sheeple always believe the mainstream news at face value. They believe we’re under attack from terrorists who bring down tall buildings, or we’re being assaulted by Mexican drug gangs on the border, or we’re threatened by the Swine Flu. That’s what suckers are supposed to believe, you see: That your government is never working against you… it’s always working FOR you, right?

But intelligent people know the opposite is true: Your government is usually plotting against you and trying to figure out how to expand its power, expand its reach, reduce your freedoms and control your life. This is accomplished by unleashing the very problems that the government claims to be fighting to prevent.

The government, for example, says it’s trying to solve our nation’s economic problems. And how does it accomplish that? By generating trillions of dollars in new fiat currency and handing it over to the criminals running Wall Street. This has the net effect of stealing money from everybody else through dollar devaluation.

How does the government solve our national health care crisis? By enacting Obamacare, which mandates that more people buy into a system that has utterly failed to serve the health interests of the American people in the first place!

So at the very same time the government says it’s working to improve the economy, it’s actually stealing from you behind your back. At the very same time the government says it’s trying to stop cancer, its own health-related agencies (National Cancer Institute, for example) are openly engaged in massive disinformation campaigns that spread false information about sunlight being “dangerous” to your health (while conveniently ignoring the truth about vitamin D and its cancer preventive properties).

The government says it wants to make your food safer, and yet the USDA keeps approving genetically modified foods that are essentially massive biological experiments that cause widespread infertility and disease.

The same story goes on and on… with fluoride in the water, mercury in dental fillings, aspartame in diet sodas, pesticide use in agriculture and so on. At nearly every turn, the government itself is actively plotting against the People to keep them financially enslaved, biologically diseased and mentally ignorant.

Shipping guns into Mexico, you see, is just a tiny part of the big picture that’s going on today in the USA. The same process — Problem, Reaction, Solution — is in use almost everywhere in government at both the state and federal level.

Big Government is the enemy of peace and freedom

Bureaucrats hate to lose their jobs, and if there’s a way to stage something that makes them suddenly look more important, they won’t hesitate to roll it out. The U.S. government, just so you know, has been actively engaged in weapons trafficking, drug running and counterfeiting for decades. If you or I did what our own government does every single day, we’d be arrested as felony criminals. But when the government runs guns into Mexico, or traffics in cocaine, or prints counterfeit dollar bills that have no backing with real value, somehow it’s all okay.

Amazing how our own government has now turned into the very criminals that it claims to be protecting us against, isn’t it? Who are the real terrorists in America? The ATF agents running guns into the hands of Mexican drug gangs, of course. And the FBI agents who set up Arab-looking patsies to try to set off fake bombs that the FBI actually assembled for them!

By the way, Alex Jones (www.PrisonPlanet.com) has been covering all this for years. He’s been saying this all along, and time and time again, he’s been proven right. I realize his presentation style may seem a little intense to some people, but at the end of the day, Alex Jones is far more accurate at decoding what’s really going on behind the scenes than any mainstream news channel or newspaper. Here’s an article from InfoWars on this very topic:http://www.infowars.com/obama-admin…

I’m scheduled to host the Alex Jones show next week and will likely be discussing more about the ATF’s gun-running activities in Mexico. In the mean time, stay tuned to NaturalNews.com for more stories that aren’t afraid to report the truth about what’s really happening in our world today.</span>

LWW
07-08-2011, 07:04 AM
If you remember a little bit ago I started a thread where Obama was quoted as claiming he was working on a means to get further gun control in the US by doing it under the table?

IIMHO this is what he was referring to.

Had this scandal never broke, the regime would be on a holy jihad against guns/gunshops using this as "PROOF" that our laws were so lax we were flooding Mexico with weapons.

I also have no doubt that the leftist mob would have easily been whipped into a frenzy ... never daring to question their beloved dear leader's regime was actually the one sending the weapons south while the <span style='font-size: 14pt'>EEEVILLL</span> gun shop owners were in reality trying to stop it from happening.

The bottom line is that the regime is knee deep responsible for the murder of US law enforcement and innocent Mexican citizens ... and the O-cult will deny it to their last breath.

Sev
07-08-2011, 07:18 AM
I this goes all the way to Holder the implications could be vast.

LWW
07-08-2011, 07:23 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I this goes all the way to Holder the implications could be vast. </div></div>

Probably true ... and the O-cult will insist that dear leader has no liability whatsoever for what Holder did, following 8 years of blaming <span style='font-size: 11pt'>B-B-B-BOOOOSH!!!!</span> because there was a long line at the concession stand at the NORML smoke in.

Soflasnapper
07-08-2011, 12:11 PM
Just as a general matter, it's common here for people to repost entire articles which carry a copyright. Fair use allows quoting, but not entire reproduction without permission. Eventually this board might run afoul of legal problems with this practice, AND it surely takes a lot of space. Perhaps quoting the relevant portions and linking to the rest would be preferred? Or if this cannot be a problem, contrary to my take, perhaps someone can explain how this is allowable without an issue?

Now, specifically, we have this statement:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">“According to the testimony of three Phoenix ATF agents, including Dodson, hundreds of weapons are now on the streets in the United States and Mexico, possibly in the hands of criminals. Dodson estimated the number could be as many as 1,800 weapons. He estimated agents in the Phoenix field division facilitated the sale of approximately 2,500 weapons to straw purchasers. A few hundred have been recovered.”
</div></div>

This is about the number I've heard in the past.

Where does the claim of 30,000 come from? If it's the Daily Caller's reporting, it is suspect, as are they.

Soflasnapper
07-08-2011, 12:27 PM
Looking around, it is true that 'it has been widely reported,' but in a circle jerk fashion, with semi-non-credible sites quoting each other to this effect. I have found nothing to indicate 'the government itself openly admits' anything of this magnitude.

I DID find this:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> THOUSANDS OF GUNS TRACED BACK TO U.S.

Of the nearly 30,000 firearms recovered in 2009 and 2010 in Mexico, where gun possession is illegal, some 70 percent were determined to have come from the United States, ATF officials told lawmakers last week.</div></div>

So the claim would appear to be an LWW-style reading comprehension problem.

First, this factoid doesn't support 30,000, but 21,000 weapons, even if one thinks in retarded fashion that despite the known estimate of 'hundreds,' this somehow indicates all these weapons came from the Fast and Furious program.

But did the cartels only start their drug dealing as of 2009? Or perhaps, prior to '09, refuse to use firearms, relying on machetes and baseball bats?

Isn't it obvious that a lot of weapons got into Mexico in the prior decades (yes, from the US to some large degree), quite before the F&F program? Or, if the F&F program was also in effect in past decades, it wouldn't have been O's administration doing that?

Sev
07-08-2011, 03:21 PM
As long as you give credit via a link I believe there is no problem.

http://www.infowars.com/us-government-op...rearms-but-why/ (http://www.infowars.com/us-government-openly-admits-arming-mexican-drug-gangs-with-30000-firearms-but-why/)

Soflasnapper
07-08-2011, 04:44 PM
Perhaps that's right, but I think not.

What about there being no 'openly admitting' found on the government's part (an open admission ought to be sourceable), and the 'widely reported' being a widely reported falsehood?

cushioncrawler
07-08-2011, 05:22 PM
Who writes that shit. Who reads it?? I didnt.
mac.

LWW
07-08-2011, 05:33 PM
You really are a nit.

Before the BARF involvement was made public, the left was trumpeting the fact that these weapons were traceable back to the US and that it was proof that gun shop owners were common criminals without a conscience.

Read Charlote's epic tomes on the topic ... or KO's venomously ignorant rants.

Qtec
07-09-2011, 04:24 AM
I agree. Its time for some serious gun control.

Q

LWW
07-09-2011, 06:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree. Its time for some serious gun control.

Q </div></div>

I practice gun control.

I can consistently place 9+ out of 10 inside the X ring with my faithful Sig at combat range.

All gun owners should practice their control.

LWW
07-09-2011, 06:50 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First, this factoid doesn't support 30,000, but 21,000 weapons, even if one thinks in retarded fashion that despite the known estimate of 'hundreds,' this somehow indicates all these weapons came from the Fast and Furious program.</div></div>

Dude ... you are so easy.

First off ... the 21K were sourced to then US because they were made in the US, pretty easy to source.

Second, the weapons in the 30K number consist of everything from .22LR on up.

Next ... the Obamedia can honestly claim that thousands are hundreds when they spoon feed the O-cult.

According to the reich wing CBS NEWS (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/23/eveningnews/main20035609.shtml) it was more like 2,500 weapons that were walked across to the narco terrorists.

These included 575 AK's and an unstated number of Barrett .50 cals.

The Barrett .5o caliber is the world's premier sniper rifle with an effective range of up to 2,000 yards ... yes, well over a mile ... and a deadly range of over 7,000 yards.

The Barrett has long been sought by such peace loving groups as Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and the Iraq insurgency.

There is little reason to believe that at least some of these won't make their way there.

At the very least ... they offer they offer the narco terrorists a means to hit targets well inside the US birder from the comfort of Mexico.

http://www.armyproperty.com/Equipment-Info/Pictures/XM107.jpg

OH DEAR! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82)

Sev
07-09-2011, 07:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree. Its time for some serious gun control.

Q </div></div>

The US has approximately 30,000 gun control laws on the books.

We need more guns and less criminals.

Sev
07-09-2011, 07:04 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First, this factoid doesn't support 30,000, but 21,000 weapons, even if one thinks in retarded fashion that despite the known estimate of 'hundreds,' this somehow indicates all these weapons came from the Fast and Furious program.</div></div>

Dude ... you are so easy.

First off ... the 21K were sourced to then US because they were made in the US, pretty easy to source.

Second, the weapons in the 30K number consist of everything from .22LR on up.

Next ... the Obamedia can honestly claim that thousands are hundreds when they spoon feed the O-cult.

According to the reich wing CBS NEWS (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/23/eveningnews/main20035609.shtml) it was more like 2,500 weapons that were walked across to the narco terrorists.

These included 575 AK's and an unstated number of Barrett .50 cals.

The Barrett .5o caliber is the world's premier sniper rifle with an effective range of up to 2,000 yards ... yes, well over a mile ... and a deadly range of over 7,000 yards.

The Barrett has long been sought by such peace loving groups as Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and the Iraq insurgency.

There is little reason to believe that at least some of these won't make their way there.

At the very least ... they offer they offer the narco terrorists a means to hit targets well inside the US birder from the comfort of Mexico.

http://www.armyproperty.com/Equipment-Info/Pictures/XM107.jpg

OH DEAR! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82)
</div></div>

Been trying to get one off Fatboy.

LWW
07-09-2011, 07:32 AM
REMIND ME TO STAY AT LEAST 2,001 YARDS AWAY FROM YOU! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Sev
07-09-2011, 11:19 AM
I'm good with KY windage. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Soflasnapper
07-09-2011, 01:33 PM
An interesting link to the CBS reporting. Tanks.

Still, you now have a report of 'thousands,' as in maybe as few as 2,500, not 30,000, and not from 'open govt admission' but from 'unnamed sources.' (from a February report).

Yes, we know a lot of guns in Mexico came from the US. That isn't the point. The question is how many of them got there through this particular ATF program. Do you say, ALL OF THEM! There's no evidence to support that, or to support anything like 30,000 (FROM THIS PROGRAM).

You have an echo chamber that pushes this factoid around without any regard to its truth, apparently based on several reports that involve far fewer amounts of arms, and the theory that anything that is alleged that is bad about this administration must be true. Taking that attitude is naive, and would lead one to a false conclusion often, and evidently, in this case.

LWW
07-09-2011, 03:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An interesting link to the CBS reporting. Tanks.

Still, you now have a report of 'thousands,' as in maybe as few as 2,500, not 30,000, and not from 'open govt admission' but from 'unnamed sources.' (from a February report).

</div></div>

The unnamed sources are the whistleblowers who have since came public.

LWW
07-09-2011, 03:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">\The question is how many of them got there through this particular ATF program. Do you say, ALL OF THEM! There's no evidence to support that, or to support anything like 30,000 (FROM THIS PROGRAM).</div></div>

You really will sacrifice your intellectual dignity to defend the regime.

The issue isn't whether it was 2,500 or 25,000,000,000 ... that is simply an uber lame deflection from the real issue ... the real issue is whether it happened at all.

LWW
07-09-2011, 03:54 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have an echo chamber that pushes this factoid around without any regard to its truth, apparently based on several reports that involve far fewer amounts of arms, and the theory that anything that is alleged that is bad about this administration must be true. Taking that attitude is naive, and would lead one to a false conclusion often, and evidently, in this case.

</div></div>

How many walked Barrett .50 caliber sniper rifles ... with a range of well over a mile ... bought with the obvious intent to murder US law enforcement near the border is a sufficient amount that you would denounce this criminal program?

I'd seriously like to here your number.

My number is 1.

Soflasnapper
07-09-2011, 04:02 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">\The question is how many of them got there through this particular ATF program. Do you say, ALL OF THEM! There's no evidence to support that, or to support anything like 30,000 (FROM THIS PROGRAM).</div></div>

You really will sacrifice your intellectual dignity to defend the regime.

The issue isn't whether it was 2,500 or 25,000,000,000 ... that is simply an uber lame deflection from the real issue ... the real issue is whether it happened at all. </div></div>

If that's the issue, I agree this appeared to happen.

But quoting a number an order or two magnitude larger doesn't reflect reality, and doesn't even matter, according to you, so why fudge up a true outrage with phony claims?

LWW
07-09-2011, 05:15 PM
1 - I didn't fudge anything.

2 - You never gave us your number.

LWW
07-09-2011, 05:30 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As long as you give credit via a link I believe there is no problem.

http://www.infowars.com/us-government-op...rearms-but-why/ (http://www.infowars.com/us-government-openly-admits-arming-mexican-drug-gangs-with-30000-firearms-but-why/) </div></div>

I think Alex Jones is a nutjob myself, along with Jeff Rense, but I remember a time ... when they were going after <span style='font-size: 11pt'>B-B-B-BOOOOSH!!!</span> ... that the far left considered Alex Jones to be an unimpeachable bearer of "TRUTH."

Where's hippie fool and the stories about the <span style='font-family: Arial Black'><span style='font-size: 14pt'>"</span><span style='font-size: 17pt'>B</span><span style='font-size: 14pt'>IG</span> <span style='font-size: 17pt'>S</span><span style='font-size: 14pt'>TONE</span> <span style='font-size: 17pt'>O</span><span style='font-size: 14pt'>WL"</span></span> ... complete with the Alex Jones stories of Jr and Sr <span style='font-size: 11pt'>B-B-B-BOOOOSH!!!!</span> joining up with Obama, Clinton, Kissinger, Bill Gates, and the Saudi princes in a drunken Satanic ritual dance in the Bohemian Grove.
http://www.lovethetruth.com/jis_images/cremation_of_care.jpg

Soflasnapper
07-09-2011, 07:22 PM
Yes, I'm quite familiar with Alex Jones and his credibility, or lack thereof, thank you. Actually, it's mixed, as you may know as well. But I think you would enjoy and agree with his 'The Obama Deception,' as even I found it entertaining, at least.

Did you fudge anything? I thought you supported the 30,000 number, for which there is no evidence (that it was the number of weapons transferred under the ATF F&F program).

My number? I thought it was the 'hundreds' from the testimony I'd seen (and that testimony did say that, as quoted in this article). Perhaps it is instead in the 2,500 range, as the CBS unnamed sources CLAIMED (which is evidence that the claim exists, but no evidence really that it is so).

Qtec
07-10-2011, 02:31 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">US government openly admits arming Mexican drug gangs with 30,000 firearms </div></div>

Actually, they don't.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dodson estimated the number could be <u>as many as 1,800</u> weapons. He estimated agents in the Phoenix field division facilitated the sale of approximately <u>2,500 weapons to straw purchasers. A few hundred have been recovered.</u>” </div></div>

Hardly 30,000!

Q

LWW
07-10-2011, 02:02 PM
And?

LWW
07-10-2011, 02:08 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, I'm quite familiar with Alex Jones and his credibility, or lack thereof, thank you. Actually, it's mixed, as you may know as well. But I think you would enjoy and agree with his 'The Obama Deception,' as even I found it entertaining, at least.

Did you fudge anything? I thought you supported the 30,000 number, for which there is no evidence (that it was the number of weapons transferred under the ATF F&F program).

My number? I thought it was the 'hundreds' from the testimony I'd seen (and that testimony did say that, as quoted in this article). Perhaps it is instead in the 2,500 range, as the CBS unnamed sources CLAIMED (which is evidence that the claim exists, but no evidence really that it is so).

</div></div>

1 - You still didn't answer the question.

2 - A googleplex can legitimately be claimed to simply be hundreds.

That argument reminds me woofie's head spinning off when he insisted the tea party protests were drawing small crowds.

As an example of how easily the lefty os played, I linked to the Dayton <s>Worker's Gazette</s> <s>People's Daily</s> <s>Daily Snooze</s> Daily News claim that the local tea party drew "over 1,000" ... while the Dayton PD used crowd estimation software to come up with a guess of over 10,000.

Well ... 10,000 is over 1,000 so technically they were telling the truth, although literally they were spoon feeding an agenda to the naive and dim witted.

Soflasnapper
07-10-2011, 05:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

1 - You still didn't answer the question.

</div></div>

What question to me is found in this?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think Alex Jones is a nutjob myself, along with Jeff Rense, but I remember a time ... when they were going after B-B-B-BOOOOSH!!! ... that the far left considered Alex Jones to be an unimpeachable bearer of "TRUTH."

Where's hippie fool and the stories about the "BIG STONE OWL" ... complete with the Alex Jones stories of Jr and Sr B-B-B-BOOOOSH!!!! joining up with Obama, Clinton, Kissinger, Bill Gates, and the Saudi princes in a drunken Satanic ritual dance in the Bohemian Grove. </div></div>

Where's hippie fool..., etc., is that the question? I don't know the answer to that.

I don't know much about Bohemian Grove, other than Nixon went once and proclaimed it 'the faggiest thing I've ever seen,' involving naked drum circles ala the Grateful Dead tours or something.

Sev
07-10-2011, 06:14 PM
<span style='font-size: 20pt'>UH OH. Update!</span>

To long to post.

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/july092011/holder-atf-death-tk.php

<span style="color: #000000">snip/

Holder Lied: DOJ News Release Shows Obama Admin Approved ATF Mexico Weapons Smuggling
Tim King Salem-News.com

Eric Holder gave false info. to a Congressional Committee last May about ATF operations tied to the deaths of two U.S. Agents; we have the proof.
Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and Special Agent Jaime Zapata from ICE
Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and Special Agent Jaime Zapata from ICE both died from weapons that were sent to Mexico from the United States. There is no knowledge as to how many lives the U.S. weapons smuggling programs claimed in Mexico.

(SALEM, Ore.) - New information indicates that U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder's actions are squarely behind the ATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms) operation known as "Fast and Furious", which orchestrated the delivery of almost 2,000 weapons to Mexican drug cartels[1].

Holder openly proclaimed his connection to the operation in April 2009 during a publicized speech in Mexico, then told a Congressional Committee in May 2011, "I probably heard of Fast and Furious the first time in the last few weeks."[2]

The ATF weapons smuggling ring involved the arrest of several government officials with the city of Columbus, New Mexico including the mayor and police chief, but that is all[3].

They were apparently known from the beginning and the weapons deals with 'straw buyers' were videotaped. Smuggled U.S. weapons from this operation, described as mostly semi automatic versions of military weapons like the AK-47, were found to be used in the shooting deaths of two U.S. federal agents.

The new information, which is not really new at all, proves that Holder had to be aware of the U.S. government weapons smuggling operation planned and implemented by federal agents from ATF which he denied to Government Reform Committee Chairman Darrell Issa (R-CA) less than two months ago, as detailed below. </span>

Click link to read the article in its entirety.

Soflasnapper
07-10-2011, 07:18 PM
If Operation Gunrunner is shown to be the Fast and Furious operation, this is a good point.

If it is not, it is a bad point.

Which is true would appear to be in the wheelhouse of Darrell Issa's committee to find out, using subpoena power that this paper reporting this information and we here do not have.

I presume it is the general opinion here that these must be the same operation, and therefore, the paper's claim is true.

I am neutral on the question, and await further evidence before making up my mind. Perhaps the wily veteran bureaucrat Holder has been caught in an obvious lie (having put in the budgeting for Operation Gunrunner), but I doubt it's that simple.

Sev
07-10-2011, 07:48 PM
This could be explosive for the administration.

Since Obama is a world court supporter I wonder what he would do if the Mexican government brought suit against the administration?

LWW
07-11-2011, 03:46 AM
You might want to read the provided data before dismissing it.

Qtec
07-11-2011, 04:02 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And? </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dodson estimated the number could be as many as 1,800 weapons. He estimated agents in the Phoenix field division facilitated the sale of approximately 2,500 weapons to straw purchasers. A few hundred have been recovered.” </div></div>

What else is there? The top estimate is 1800, not 30,000. A 2 year old could understand this, its not complicated.

If you have any REAL proof that the US delivered 30,000 guns to Mexican cartels, please, lets hear it.


Q

LWW
07-11-2011, 04:10 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

1 - You still didn't answer the question.

</div></div>

What question to me is found in this?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think Alex Jones is a nutjob myself, along with Jeff Rense, but I remember a time ... when they were going after B-B-B-BOOOOSH!!! ... that the far left considered Alex Jones to be an unimpeachable bearer of "TRUTH."

Where's hippie fool and the stories about the "BIG STONE OWL" ... complete with the Alex Jones stories of Jr and Sr B-B-B-BOOOOSH!!!! joining up with Obama, Clinton, Kissinger, Bill Gates, and the Saudi princes in a drunken Satanic ritual dance in the Bohemian Grove. </div></div>

Where's hippie fool..., etc., is that the question? I don't know the answer to that.

I don't know much about Bohemian Grove, other than Nixon went once and proclaimed it 'the faggiest thing I've ever seen,' involving naked drum circles ala the Grateful Dead tours or something. </div></div>

What a pathetic dodge.

How about this question:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 17pt'>How many walked Barrett .50 caliber sniper rifles ... with a range of well over a mile ... bought with the obvious intent to murder US law enforcement near the border is a sufficient amount that you would denounce this criminal program?

I'd seriously like to here your number.

My number is 1.</span> </div></div>

LWW
07-11-2011, 04:11 AM
What an even more pathetic dodge.

Are you claiming that 1,800 is an acceptable number?

LWW
07-11-2011, 04:51 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If Operation Gunrunner is shown to be the Fast and Furious operation, this is a good point.

If it is not, it is a bad point.</div></div>

The only relevant question to you here is whether this myth was spoon fed to you or if you simply fabricated it on your own?

Back to reality:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ATF Project Gunrunner has a stated official objective to stop the sale and export of guns from the United States into Mexico in order to deny Mexican drug cartels the firearms considered "tools of the trade".[16] However, <span style='font-size: 14pt'>since September 2009 under Project Gunrunner, operation "Fast and Furious"</span>, did the opposite by ATF permitting, encouraging and facilitating 'straw purchase' firearm sales to traffickers, and allowing the guns to 'walk' and be transported to Mexico. This has resulted in the death of US border agent Brian Terry and considerable controversy. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(CBS News) WASHINGTON - <span style='font-size: 11pt'>Keeping American weapons from getting into the hands of Mexican gangs is the goal of a program called "Project Gunrunner." But critics say it's doing exactly the opposite. CBS News investigative correspondent Sharyl Attkisson reports on what she found.</span>

December 14, 2010. The place: a dangerous smuggling route in Arizona not far from the border. A special tactical border squad was on patrol when gunfire broke out and agent Brian Terry was killed.

Kent, Brian's brother, said "he was my only brother. That was the only brother I had. I'm lost."

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>The assault rifles found at the murder were traced back to a U.S. gun shop. Where they came from and how they got there is a scandal so large, some insiders say it surpasses the shoot-out at Ruby Ridge and the deadly siege at Waco.</span> ...

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>"Project Gunrunner" deployed new teams of agents to the southwest border. The idea: to stop the flow of weapons from the US to Mexico's drug cartels. But in practice, sources tell CBS News, ATF's actions had the opposite result: they allegedly facilitated the delivery of thousands of guns into criminal hands.</span>

CBS News wanted to ask ATF officials about the case, but they wouldn't agree to an interview. We were able to speak to six veteran ATF agents and executives involved. They don't want to be quoted by name for fear of retaliation. These are their allegations.

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>In late 2009, ATF was alerted to suspicious buys at seven gun shops in the Phoenix area. Suspicious because the buyers paid cash, sometimes brought in paper bags. And they purchased classic "weapons of choice" used by Mexican drug traffickers - semi-automatic versions of military type rifles and pistols.

Sources tell CBS News several gun shops wanted to stop the questionable sales, but ATF encouraged them to continue.</span>

Jaime Avila was one of the suspicious buyers. ATF put him in its suspect database in January of 2010. For the next year, ATF watched as Avila and other suspects bought huge quantities of weapons supposedly for "personal use." They included 575 AK-47 type semi-automatic rifles.

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>ATF managers allegedly made a controversial decision: allow most of the weapons on the streets. The idea, they said, was to gather intelligence and see where the guns ended up. Insiders say it's a dangerous tactic called letting the guns, "walk."</span>

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>One agent called the strategy "insane." Another said: "We were fully aware the guns would probably be moved across the border to drug cartels where they could be used to kill."

On the phone, one Project Gunrunner source (who didn't want to be identified) told us just how many guns flooded the black market under ATF's watchful eye. "The numbers are over 2,500 on that case by the way. That's how many guns were sold - including some 50-calibers they let walk."

50-caliber weapons are fearsome. For months, ATF agents followed 50-caliber Barrett rifles and other guns believed headed for the Mexican border, but were ordered to let them go. One distraught agent was often overheard on ATF radios begging and pleading to be allowed to intercept transports. The answer: "Negative. Stand down."</span> ...</div></div>

OH DEAR! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gunrunner)

OH MY! (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/23/eveningnews/main20035609.shtml?tag=channelMore;pop)

Qtec
07-11-2011, 05:18 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What an even more pathetic dodge.

Are you claiming that 1,800 is an acceptable number? </div></div>

No you MORON. I'm saying 1,800 is not 30,000 !

Are you now admitting that the 30,000 number is bogus?

Q

Sev
07-11-2011, 06:57 AM
Its funny. Bush was accused of being a murderer.

Obama and Holder may in fact actually be.

The entire affair is looking more and more like a Nixonian style coverup.

Except this time a lot of people are dead.

eg8r
07-11-2011, 10:07 AM
So then all you are doing is trying real hard to change the subject FROM Obama giving guns to Mexican drug gangs TO Obama giving 1800 instead of 30,000. Is that worth arguing about?

eg8r

Soflasnapper
07-11-2011, 11:28 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This could be explosive for the administration.

Since Obama is a world court supporter I wonder what he would do if the Mexican government brought suit against the administration? </div></div>

Given his history of reversals, I'd think it possible he'd deny the world court's jurisdiction (ala Reagan, in their finding that mining the harbors in Nicaragua was actionable).

Soflasnapper
07-11-2011, 11:28 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You might want to read the provided data before dismissing it.
</div></div>

I read the links provided. Is there something else you mean to reference?

Soflasnapper
07-11-2011, 11:44 AM
How many walked Barrett .50 caliber sniper rifles ... with a range of well over a mile ... bought with the obvious intent to murder US law enforcement near the border is a sufficient amount that you would denounce this criminal program?

I'd seriously like to here [sic] your number.

The Mexican cartels are at war with a couple of people besides US law enforcement-- other competing cartels, and the Mexican authorities as well. A sniper rifle purchase may have many intended targets, cause killing any of their foes at longer range, lacking the ability to get closer at times, could be handy against other Mexican gangs or authorities.

Moreover, think this through slightly (I know it's hard, but try).

The purpose of the operation wasn't to apprehend the straw buyers, who are lower level interchangeable perps, but to understand the end buyers/users of these weapons. To get at THEM, you MUST let the straw buyers take those weapons to them. That all seems like standard procedure.

Where it gets trickier to judge is whether you then snap up the end buyers/users of the weapons immediately. First, how could you do it, exactly, since these transfers would be over the border line, I presume. The transfers could be covertly monitored, but arresting might be impossible. And even if it were possible, would that be the best idea, to let the cartels know of the existence of this sting, on its first go-round, and stop its effectiveness as to finding more end users/purchasers, only bagging the first persons thus found, and ensuring you couldn't catch more of them.

This sounds a bit like a DEA heroin sting, where the DEA uses heroin seized from traffickers to pretend to be suppliers, and then might allow it to actually be distributed to make a far larger case than busting the one buyer. Yes, if it is distributed, maybe a user dies. When they turn someone to a state's witness, maybe a murderer gets immunity as well.

I think these kinds of broken eggs occur when making law enforcement omelets, and maybe all are unacceptable on some abstract black/white analysis, and also maybe all occur out of fairly normal pragmatism.

ugotda7
07-11-2011, 11:51 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So then all you are doing is trying real hard to change the subject FROM Obama giving guns to Mexican drug gangs TO Obama giving 1800 instead of 30,000. Is that worth arguing about?

eg8r </div></div>

Some people need meaning in their lives.

LWW
07-11-2011, 03:42 PM
O never claimed the 30,000 was accurate.

My number to be considered unacceptable is 1.

What's yours?

LWW
07-11-2011, 03:44 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its funny. Bush was accused of being a murderer.

Obama and Holder may in fact actually be.

The entire affair is looking more and more like a Nixonian style coverup.

Except this time a lot of people are dead. </div></div>

They were only flyover bubbas as far as the left is concerned. If a few people die just so the regime can launch a false flag operation against the COTUS ... and the second amendment being the only thing between the people and a single party state ... isn't that a small price to pay?

LWW
07-11-2011, 03:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You might want to read the provided data before dismissing it.
</div></div>

I read the links provided. Is there something else you mean to reference? </div></div>

I even quoted it for you. I can lead you to knowledge, I can't make you think.

BTW ... what's your number? Mine is 1.

LWW
07-11-2011, 03:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So then all you are doing is trying real hard to change the subject FROM Obama giving guns to Mexican drug gangs TO Obama giving 1800 instead of 30,000. Is that worth arguing about?

eg8r </div></div>

I think you nailed it.

LWW
07-11-2011, 03:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How many walked Barrett .50 caliber sniper rifles ... with a range of well over a mile ... bought with the obvious intent to murder US law enforcement near the border is a sufficient amount that you would denounce this criminal program?

I'd seriously like to here [sic] your number.

The Mexican cartels are at war with a couple of people besides US law enforcement-- other competing cartels, and the Mexican authorities as well. A sniper rifle purchase may have many intended targets, cause killing any of their foes at longer range, lacking the ability to get closer at times, could be handy against other Mexican gangs or authorities.

Moreover, think this through slightly (I know it's hard, but try).

The purpose of the operation wasn't to apprehend the straw buyers, who are lower level interchangeable perps, but to understand the end buyers/users of these weapons. To get at THEM, you MUST let the straw buyers take those weapons to them. That all seems like standard procedure.

Where it gets trickier to judge is whether you then snap up the end buyers/users of the weapons immediately. First, how could you do it, exactly, since these transfers would be over the border line, I presume. The transfers could be covertly monitored, but arresting might be impossible. And even if it were possible, would that be the best idea, to let the cartels know of the existence of this sting, on its first go-round, and stop its effectiveness as to finding more end users/purchasers, only bagging the first persons thus found, and ensuring you couldn't catch more of them.

This sounds a bit like a DEA heroin sting, where the DEA uses heroin seized from traffickers to pretend to be suppliers, and then might allow it to actually be distributed to make a far larger case than busting the one buyer. Yes, if it is distributed, maybe a user dies. When they turn someone to a state's witness, maybe a murderer gets immunity as well.

I think these kinds of broken eggs occur when making law enforcement omelets, and maybe all are unacceptable on some abstract black/white analysis, and also maybe all occur out of fairly normal pragmatism.
</div></div>

That's a deflection with a little rant and some doublethink mixed in.

It certainly wasn't an answer.

My number is 1.

What's yous?

Sev
07-12-2011, 07:05 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This could be explosive for the administration.

Since Obama is a world court supporter I wonder what he would do if the Mexican government brought suit against the administration? </div></div>

Given his history of reversals, I'd think it possible he'd deny the world court's jurisdiction (ala Reagan, in their finding that mining the harbors in Nicaragua was actionable). </div></div>

I would tend to agree.
Its beginning to look like the Mexico is going to make some sort of move.
It will be interesting to see how Obama tries to contain it. Operation Fast & Furious is making the Obama administration look like the Iranians shipping weapons to Iraq.

Thousands of people have died in direct correlation to a botched US operation on Obama's watch.
Other than sweeping it under the carpet and ignoring it I dont see how they will be able to effectively deal with it.
You cant just admit the error apologize for something like this without consequences.

Many people are dead in a supposed allies country due to the actions of our government. And the killing still continues.

LWW
07-12-2011, 07:10 AM
And to the O-cult ... that means nothing.

If it advances the leftist agenda, empowers the state, removes the power of the people to defend their liberty, and dear leader declares that they should deny, denounce, deflect, and deceive ... that is exactly what will be done.

Soflasnapper
07-12-2011, 04:06 PM
That's a deflection with a little rant and some doublethink mixed in.

It certainly wasn't an answer.

My number is 1.

What's yous?

There's no showing that this is the obvious intent.

If it had been the obvious intent, how many US law enforcement officers have been murdered using a .50 caliber sniper rifle, to date, in your view?

If as I suspect the number is zero, how can this be accounted for? Clear motive and opportunity and means, no?

LWW
07-12-2011, 05:25 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's a deflection with a little rant and some doublethink mixed in.

It certainly wasn't an answer.

My number is 1.

What's yous?

There's no showing that this is the obvious intent.

If it had been the obvious intent, how many US law enforcement officers have been murdered using a .50 caliber sniper rifle, to date, in your view?

If as I suspect the number is zero, how can this be accounted for? Clear motive and opportunity and means, no? </div></div>

1 - That still wasn't an answer.

2 - My number was one ... yours is obviously infinity as you will never hold the regime responsible for anything.

3 - I can't believe you are denying that the guns were willfully allowed to walk into Mexico.

Sev
07-13-2011, 06:12 AM
The noose is starting be drawn tight.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/12/is...urious-letter/
<span style="color: #000000">
House oversight committee chairman Rep. Darrell Issa, California Republican, and Sen. Chuck Grassley, Iowa Republican, ripped Attorney General Eric Holder again in another Monday letter.

The top Republicans investigating the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Operation Fast and Furious also blasted Holder for allegations that he allowed his Justice Department to skew potential witnesses by prepping them with access to background information.

In this new letter, Issa and Grassley name 12 senior Justice Department political officials they believe may have been involved in the decision which allowed guns into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. They asked Holder to provide all records relating to communications between those 12 individuals regarding Operation Fast and Furious.

“As our investigation into Operation Fast and Furious has progressed, we have learned that senior officials at the Department of Justice (DOJ), including Senate-confirmed political appointees, were unquestionably aware of the implementation of this reckless program,” Grassley and Issa wrote to Holder. “Therefore it is necessary to review communications between and among these senior officials.”

Obama administration officials Issa and Grassley named in their letter were:

–Former Deputy Attorney General David Ogden
–Deputy Attorney General James Cole
–Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer
–Deputy Assistant Attorney General Kenneth Blanco
–Deputy Assistant Attorney General Jason Weinstein
–Deputy Assistant Attorney General John Keeney
–Associate Deputy Attorney General Matt Axelrod
–Former Associate Deputy Attorney General Ed Siskel
–Gary Grindler in the Office of the Attorney General
–Brad Smith, in the office of the Deputy Attorney General
–Kevin Carwile, section chief of the Capital Case Unit
–Joseph Cooley, in the Criminal Fraud Section

The records Issa and Grassley are requesting include emails, memos, briefing papers and handwritten notes. They also requested any records concerning any large weapons trafficking cases within ATF or in Phoenix. The deadline they gave Holder is July 18 at noon. (Grassley, Issa slam Holder again: Are you skewing witnesses?)

Operation Fast and Furious and Project Gunrunner were ATF programs the administration aimed at stopping guns from getting into the hands of criminals in Mexico.

With Operation Fast and Furious, Obama administration officials permitted “straw purchasers” to buy guns and then to sell them to Mexican drug cartels with the goal of tracking the flow of arms to determine how the market functioned. The program backfired with criminals ending up getting guns.

Most egregiously, two U.S. Border Patrol agents were killed by drug cartels using Operation Fast and Furious guns.

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/12/is...#ixzz1RwozUQXh</span>

Soflasnapper
07-13-2011, 08:20 AM
1 - That still wasn't an answer.

As Marisa Tomei told the prosecutor in 'My Cousin Vinnie,' it was a BS question, since you lack any evidence to support the predicate of your question (see my last reply)

2 - My number was one ... yours is obviously infinity as you will never hold the regime responsible for anything.

No, it's far short of infinity, as that would be far too many!


3 - I can't believe you are denying that the guns were willfully allowed to walk into Mexico.

You are correct in that disbelief, as I've never said anything of the sort. Clearly they were, AND THAT WAS THE POINT. To understand the smuggling operation, and find out who the end users were. WHICH REQUIRED THE GUNS GO ACROSS THE BORDER, unless the straw buyers did their resale in this country.

LWW
07-13-2011, 02:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1 - That still wasn't an answer.

As Marisa Tomei told the prosecutor in 'My Cousin Vinnie,' it was a BS question, since you lack any evidence to support the predicate of your question (see my last reply)</div></div>

That is Grade A Bravo Sierra and you know it.

Your lame defense of dear leader boiled down to since it wasn't 30,000 it wasn't an issue.

My question is what number would get you to denounce the regime for this?

My number is 1 ... since you refuse to give a number, I must assume your number is infinity no matter how much you deny it.

Next denial?

LWW
07-13-2011, 02:23 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AND THAT WAS THE POINT. To understand the smuggling operation, and find out who the end users were. WHICH REQUIRED THE GUNS GO ACROSS THE BORDER, unless the straw buyers did their resale in this country.

</div></div>

If that is the point, it makes Eric Holder a criminal. Being USAG you are charged with enforcing the law. You are not entitled to violate the law.

Again, after 8 years of listening to the left bleat that B-B-B-BOOOOSH!!!! was guilty of (Insert moonbat myth du jour here.) because he legally dismissed AG's at the start of his second term, didn't illegally use powers he didn't have before the Patriot Act, and did legally do those things after the Patriot Act ... we now see the left willing to excuse criminal acts by the regime that they don't even deny happened.

And all that from a guy who accepts the word of an inmate who claims that while imprisoned Jimmy Carter's regime allowed him out so he could fly Bush the Elder to France on a supersonic SR-71 Blackbird to negotiate with the Iranians in order to sabotage Carter's re-election bid.

I honestly am starting to believe that Snoopy is more rational than you.

LWW
07-15-2011, 05:08 AM
Well at this point it seems to be safe to assume that the cabal considers:

1 - 1,800 to 2,500 weapons being illegally shipped to Mexican narco-terrorists at the regime's order.

2 - A dead US border agent, from those weapons.

3 - Hundreds of dead Mexican innocents.

4 - Retaliation by the regime against the whistle blowers.

all to be acceptable.

The only thing I have seen that they deem to be unacceptable is the possible overstatement of the number of guns that were walked into narco-terrorist hands.

Soflasnapper
07-17-2011, 12:41 PM
If that is the point, it makes Eric Holder a criminal. Being USAG you are charged with enforcing the law. You are not entitled to violate the law.

The whole strategy of law enforcement is to let perps go, or receive diminished sentences on pled-down charges compared to what they're really guilty of, the better to convict the higher ups. Sammy the Bull was given immunity for over a dozen admitted to murders to bring down Gotti.

Sting operations don't always see the immediate arrest of those parties, if letting the illegal activities proceed further will allow the same better targeting of the higher ups.

If what you say is true, none of the above could happen, yet it happens constantly. Meaning what you say is not true.

LWW
07-17-2011, 01:29 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If that is the point, it makes Eric Holder a criminal. Being USAG you are charged with enforcing the law. You are not entitled to violate the law.

The whole strategy of law enforcement is to let perps go, or receive diminished sentences on pled-down charges compared to what they're really guilty of, the better to convict the higher ups. Sammy the Bull was given immunity for over a dozen admitted to murders to bring down Gotti.

Sting operations don't always see the immediate arrest of those parties, if letting the illegal activities proceed further will allow the same better targeting of the higher ups.

If what you say is true, none of the above could happen, yet it happens constantly. Meaning what you say is not true.

</div></div>

Barbara Streisand ... and you know it.

Your incredibly lame excuse would hold a drop or two of water ... if the regime had notified the Mexicans. They didn't.

Once the weapons crossed the border, and the Mexicans weren't notified, all opportunity to track the weapons and retrieve them was lost.

The clear and simple evidence shows that the regime allowed the weapons to walk knowing they would cause mayhem.

The only debatable question is why?

The only answers I can come up with are:

1 - Someone took a bribe from the terrorists.

2 - The regime wanted to destabilize Mexico for unknown reasons.

3 - The regime was willing to allow Mexicans to die in order to use it as an excuse to clamp down on the second amendment "UNDER THE RADAR" as they had stated.

Soflasnapper
07-17-2011, 09:02 PM
I don't see how you find that the ATF is violating any laws here.

OTHER PEOPLE are violating the law, and yes, to ATF's knowledge and permission in that they didn't intervene. But the GUNS weren't supplied by the ATF, the SALES weren't done by the ATF, the PURCHASES weren't done by the ATF, or in any respect, by agents on behalf of the ATF.

There is a doctrine and a law concerning misprision of felony, but it would appear to have no application in this case, because of how it's written (which see).

SO, WHAT LAW DO YOU SAY HAS BEEN BROKEN (other than the unlawful acts of the actual perpetrators)?

LWW
07-18-2011, 02:40 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't see how you find that the ATF is violating any laws here.

OTHER PEOPLE are violating the law, and yes, to ATF's knowledge and permission in that they didn't intervene. But the GUNS weren't supplied by the ATF, the SALES weren't done by the ATF, the PURCHASES weren't done by the ATF, or in any respect, by agents on behalf of the ATF.

There is a doctrine and a law concerning misprision of felony, but it would appear to have no application in this case, because of how it's written (which see).

SO, WHAT LAW DO YOU SAY HAS BEEN BROKEN (other than the unlawful acts of the actual perpetrators)? </div></div>

Your level of disconnect is astounding.

Were the sales legal?

No.

Did the shop owner attempt to stop the sales?

Yes.

Was it illegal to export them from the US?

Yes.

Did the BATF make sure it happened anyway?

Yes.

You aren't so stupid that you can't figure this out.