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jjinfla
07-16-2011, 08:05 AM
All this talk (forever) that pro pool players should be treated like professionals and be given preferential treatment is all bunk. Besides the players, their family and a few fans the world of professional pool is mighty small.

Most of the amateur players care less about the pros and don't know who they are.

To test this theory, and prove that they are a marketable commodity, the pros should start charging admission for their tournaments and be paid strictly from the gate. Then they would see how popular they really are. Right now the better players just take money from the weaker players. And over the hill players like Archer and Williams try to strong arm the TD's into giving themselves an advantage by seeding the tournament.

Now they want to wreck the US Open - the only venue that really does charge an admission fee. The Pros don't even realize that the world is passing them by. And acting like baffoons is not helping them at all.

bradb
07-16-2011, 09:07 AM
Its a problem created by pool itself.

I went to the last US open because I was playing in the adjoining amateur league 8ball next door. But if I was just on vacation I would never have known there was a major tournament in town. There was absolutely zip advertising anywhere in Vegas! And even if there was the arena in which the pros were playing in wasn't big enough to hold more than 50 people. And of that number only half of the audience had seats where they could even see the table.

It was a joke! It was hard to even find where to buy the tickets. As I have said before, pool doesn't know how, or doesn't care to promote itself. The last time it was done right was when with Minnesota Fats and Willy... sadly Fats is the only player most non pool players even know about.

Brad

Fran Crimi
07-16-2011, 04:26 PM
I'm curious. What's the preferential treatment you're referring to?

jjinfla
07-16-2011, 05:48 PM
seeding instead of random draw.

Fran Crimi
07-16-2011, 08:38 PM
That's it? Other than the seeding issue, is there anything else that's bothering you about them?

jjinfla
07-17-2011, 06:29 AM
Seeding is the preferential treatment I mentioned. Their club members are the only ones seeded which guarantees that they will not face each other for the 1st 4, 8, etc rounds, depending on how many entrees they have.

The problem with the men's club, unlike the WPBA, is that they do not set up the tournaments. They go to other tournaments and then tell the TD how to run it.

Somehow, they do not do that when they play in the Seminole tournaments.

Oh well, it really doesn't matter what I think. I don't even bother to go to many tournaments any more. (To watch or play) Last weekend was the first one in a couple of years and I haven't watched it on TV for as long. And nothing has changed, people still love to pick on Earl, yet he is the one most people want to watch. In fact, I just found out last week that Appleton beat Corey in the 2010 US Open. Pool just became unimportant for me the last few years.

I guess I got spoiled when I moved here and found out that there were a lot of tournaments close to me where I could go and see the pros play. I was amazed that they never played to the fans it was always about themselves. I was even more amazed that pool amateurs didn't care to watch the pros play - even when they could do so for free.

I went to a local bar to play in their weekly tournament and there Nick Varner Playing Dan Lavoi (sp) $50 sets. So I decided to sit there and watch them play rather than get in the tournament. Only one other person besides myself watched the match. That amazed me how no one cared. It wasn't much of a match. More a pool lesson because Dan had no chance of beating Nick. In fact Nick was giving Dan pointers throughout the match.

If Barry can stream the US Open and get paid royalties from pay per view then he certainly can change the game and bring money to the players.

Just think if the US Open was strictly by invitation, had a round robin format where after each round they match the best players against the best and use a point system like Trudeau had or now Corey has. Then you would truly see top quality play.

Yes, I understand that seeding rewards the players for playing well all year and it ensures that the tournament will have the better players in the final rounds, but you either seed all players, or none.

So, are you still giving lessons? Ever think about playing in a tournament anymore? Do you play in any tournaments? Are you still active in the WPBA? Is pool still #1 in your life?

Rich R.
07-17-2011, 06:45 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its a problem created by pool itself.

I went to the last US open because I was playing in the adjoining amateur league 8ball next door. But if I was just on vacation I would never have known there was a major tournament in town. There was absolutely zip advertising anywhere in Vegas! And even if there was the arena in which the pros were playing in wasn't big enough to hold more than 50 people. And of that number only half of the audience had seats where they could even see the table.

It was a joke! It was hard to even find where to buy the tickets. As I have said before, pool doesn't know how, or doesn't care to promote itself. The last time it was done right was when with Minnesota Fats and Willy... sadly Fats is the only player most non pool players even know about.

Brad

</div></div>
Brad, that must have been the U.S. Open 10 Ball Championship if it was in Vegas. That has no connection to the U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship which is held in Chesapeake, Va.

There are pro tournaments at the same time as some of the major league championships in Vegas but they get lost in the shuffle. Frankly, I think pro tournaments get better attendance when they are far away from the bright lights of Vegas.

Fran Crimi
07-17-2011, 08:06 AM
Jake, I'm just trying to understand what your frustration with the pros is. No question about it ---- seeding does favor the stronger players. As you stated, there are legitimate arguments on both sides of the fence about seeding. Sometimes I'm for it and sometimes I'm not. I kind of like the idea of a totally open random draw in the U.S. Open because the tournament is an OPEN event.

However, Barry has been doing some seeding in his own event for awhile now. First, he makes sure that players of the same country from overseas don't play each other the first round. He can't do that with the U.S. players because there are too many of them. Also, the last few years, there has been a mandatory European event that the European players had to attend just before the U.S. Open, so in order to allow them sufficient travel time to the U.S., Barry arranged for their matches to be played the 2nd day.

I'm not passing judgement on this --- only to point out that the U.S. Open is not a totally random draw to begin with.

To answer your questions, yes I'm stil playing, but right now only in my local 14.1 league. Yes, I'm still teaching, which I probably will do for the rest of my days. Pool will always play a major role in my life, but it may not always sit in the #1 spot, depending on what I'm doing at the time.

bradb
07-17-2011, 08:31 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Brad, that must have been the U.S. Open 10 Ball Championship if it was in Vegas. That has no connection to the U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship which is held in Chesapeake, Va.

There are pro tournaments at the same time as some of the major league championships in Vegas but they get lost in the shuffle. Frankly, I think pro tournaments get better attendance when they are far away from the bright lights of Vegas. </div></div>

Thats right Rich it was 10ball and onepocket. But the best players in the world were there.

Vegas can be one of the easiest towns to advertise in, all you need to do is get listed in the schedules as an event and show ticket prices and location. Plus they did'nt even bother to get on the hotel marquee. I think there would be a lot of curious people who would like to check it out especially if you did a bit of gate build up on the local closed circuit cable channels.

I've been to other big tournaments and it wasn't much better. They just don't do much advertising, they rely on the established fan base to know where they are. They probably don't want to risk any extra money and go after the general public, advertising and large arenas are expensive, but until somebody does try it and make it work, pool just won't grow past where it is.

Brad

jjinfla
07-17-2011, 03:16 PM
Well Fran, frustration sure is the right word. I sure don't hate or dislike or have anything against any of the pros. Well, perhaps little hitler is not my favorite and I do root for Earl when he plays him. Perhaps I just noticed more of the nonsense down here in Florida. This ABP ultimatum is just more of the same. If they can't have it their way then they are taking their bat and going home - just like little kids.

So the ultimatum states that the ABP Professionals (let's limit it to those professionals and not all professionals at large) want escrow money put up in advance. Barry said he will put up 50K 30 days before the tournament and have the rest the week of the tournament. But somehow that still is not good enough. So what else do the ABP Professionals want?

I am sure that all the ABP Professionals will have paid their entry fee far in advance of that 30 days so Barry can add it to the escrowed amount.

As far as Barry seeding some of the players from across the water I see nothing wrong with that since it is his touornament and he should be able to run it the way he wants to. But for a group of players to try and dictate to Barry how to run the tournament is not right. Oh, wait, that is the way the unions ran detroit. Ever been to Detroit lately? Hell, forget about Detroit, Orlanda just made #1 as the most unsafe place to walk down the street. (Nothing to do with pool - I am just rambling)

Do you think Barry will really make former US Open players pay their own entry fee? If so, I will offer to pay Tommy Kennedy's entry for 20% of his winnings. He always brightens up the room. Praise Jesus.

Soflasnapper
07-17-2011, 08:56 PM
We'll see an experiment on how popular the pro players are, if this sizable cohort including many of the bigger names ends up boycotting the event, as they say now they'll do.

Personally, I know I am a lot more interested to see a given round when there is someone I know and want to see, and vice versa (when I'll take the round off and go shoot some myself instead).

I suspect quite a few of the pool players or non-pool players who attend these events have an opinion close to mine. Those who do not attend are not particularly relevant to the discussion.

Brian in VA
07-18-2011, 09:20 AM
FWIW, I don't understand all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about seeding. Tennis tournaments have had it for as long as I can remember and whenever there are match play events in golf, both professional and amateur, seeding also is in effect.

Like Fran, I have some desire to see the best play the best in a random draw but I also understand the value of the seeding. (Good to see you posting Fran! I always enjoy your well thought and stated POVs.)

In any case, I plan to be at the Open ready to watch all of the players that are there. As you said, Phil, if there's no one I want to watch in particular, I'll head down to Q Masters for a few hours. (Let's play some!)

Brian in VA

Soflasnapper
07-18-2011, 10:45 AM
Without seeding, sometimes the bigger name players run into each other in the early rounds, putting one or the other on the one-loss side, AND then possibly meeting another bigger name player early on the one-loss side, leading to an early exit for somebody.

Last year many such players were in fact on the one-loss side within the first couple days of play, although maybe some were from lesser names having quite an upset win.

It makes for better matches early, and more critical matches earlier on the one-loss side.

So from a spectator's standpoint, the trade-off is greater interest earlier, compared to having the bigger names players sticking to the winners' side longer and lasting longer into later days of the tournament.

Now SOME PEOPLE only show up in the later days of the tournament (B, e.g.), and so might see no value in greater interest in the early days' matches, and a far greater value to having the names more widely around in the later days.

I can see it either way, really. And if the price to get them all there is the seeding, I would favor making that concession, even though it creates an additional burden to the tournament officials. And, of course, it creates a far greater hurdle for the lesser names, as whatever part of the chart they end up in will be populated with many names to go through, repeatedly.

Scott Lee
07-18-2011, 10:58 PM
Hey guys...don't be surprised if most of the players on the ABP list show up and play in the Open. I'm betting there are way more on the list who show up and play...than stay home, and miss a possible payday!

Scott Lee

jjinfla
07-19-2011, 06:39 AM
Yep, calmer heads will take over. Like Archer's wife; Mika's sponsor; Corey remembers he almost won it all last year; Appleton wants to repeat; Rodney knows that he can beat them all on any given day; Mike Sigel is working on his 2nd comeback, etc.

I seem to remember an old saying, "money talks..."

The Pros should keep in mind that they are not getting any younger and opportunities to make money in this business are few and far between. Who knows what next year will bring.

Anything new on talks between Barry and ABP?

Rich R.
07-19-2011, 07:29 AM
I find it interesting that the ABP has been very quiet, at least publically. I have heard a rumor that there is some kind of agreement pending but I don't know any of the details.

Agreement or not, I think most of the players on the ABP list will be there and playing. The boycott will consist of a few players at best.

Like Phil and Brian, I will be there to watch and maybe play a little on the side. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

jjinfla
07-19-2011, 09:59 AM
Checking the APB website I see that they have 65 members listed. Of those 34 are from the USA. Of the 65, 43 are listed as not attending the Open - 20 from the USA are not attending.

Oh well, it will be what it will be.

Tom_In_Cincy
07-19-2011, 02:50 PM
Hello from the Left Coast.

Talk out here is that Barry will have his 256 entries and not have to pay $7000 in past champion fees.

Another GREAT chance for Earl to win his 6th US Open 9 Ball Championship... Yeah, Go Earl.

Soflasnapper
07-19-2011, 04:36 PM
Hey, Tom-- best wishes!

Yes, I noticed most if not all of the past US Open champions were listed among the boycotters, including Shane, Mika, Johnny, Alex, Jeremy Jones I think, Gabe (?), Efron, Buddy Hall (not present that last couple), etc.

ALSO a good time for women entries, I should think.

jjinfla
07-20-2011, 06:09 AM
I can see why Varner and Immonen are not concerned about playing in the US Open again - they both won it two years in a row. Too easy for them, no challenge to them anymore. Besides if they win another US Open they would have to join Earl & Mike as the only players to have won 3 US Opens. Who wants an honor like that? Besides, Earl wants to set the bar higher and win his 6th US Open. Everyone is afraid of Earl. He sure is in shape now. He proved that by playing 180 games in 3 days.

Tom_In_Cincy
07-20-2011, 12:37 PM
While the ABP is watching this year, Asia will be watching also. According to AZBilliards news home page, Pat Flemming has inked a deal with ESPN-Asia to film the US Open 9 Ball event.

I hope there will be a PPV this year. I enjoy watching at home and not having to traverce the country and time zones... getting too old to fly and be felt up by the TSA. LOL

jjinfla
07-20-2011, 01:18 PM
I guess when Barry was talking with the ABP players they must not have heard him when he told them he was working to have cameras there. Or else they didn't believe him.

In the AZB article they quote Barry, "Our players should be happy, too. Now massive audiences can put a face to the names they have heard so many times or seen on Accu-Stats Tournament Match Pay-per-View and DVDs.

And, let's not forget, their sponsor's patches will be seen by millions as they compete for the America's most sought-after title. ESPN Star Sports, alone, has 175 million subscribers."

That sorta puts a new light on the Boycott - especially if you have a sponsor.

I think sponsors like words like "massive" and "millions". Especially when their logo is being viewed by them. Players should start practicing how to pose properly so that their sponsor's logo will be seen on camera. Logos need face time!

Okay, Boycott over. In the words of John Di Toro it's "time to rack, break and roll".

Rich R.
07-20-2011, 07:30 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jjinfla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Checking the APB website I see that they have 65 members listed. Of those 34 are from the USA. Of the 65, 43 are listed as not attending the Open - 20 from the USA are not attending.

Oh well, it will be what it will be. </div></div>

I strongly suspect this list will change drastically by mid October. For one thing, the foreign players are much more involved in international play and they won't want to pass up the WPA points. Also, none of the top players will want to pass up a chance at the money, even if it is paid late.

Scott Lee
07-24-2011, 09:58 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom_In_Cincy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... getting too old to fly and be felt up by the TSA. LOL</div></div>

Aw c'mon Tom! The TSA has a new machine that just "looks" underneath your clothes! No more touchy-feely! LOL I know you came to the Open many times before you moved to Sactown. We'll miss you, my friend. I will personally raise a toast in your honor at the dinner!

Scott Lee

Rich R.
07-25-2011, 08:12 AM
I hope everyone is not misunderstanding my stance on this issue.

Do I think the players should be paid timely. Definitely yes.
Do I think a boycott is a good thing for the players. Definitely not.

Everyone knows that Barry is far from perfect and I'm sure he can be a real bear to deal with in business. However, what will a boycott do to improve the situation.

For the sake of argument, let's just say that the players have a successful boycott of the Open. None of the known players show up and fan attendance drops to almost nothing. This ends with Barry going out of the tournament business and the U.S. Open is never held again.

What would all of this accomplish for the players?
The answer is absolutely nothing. In fact, there would be one less major even each year for them to play and earn money in.

The answer to this entire thing is for both sides to sit down and find some middle ground. Neither side works without the other and the sooner both sides realize this the better off everyone will be.

jjinfla
07-25-2011, 08:34 AM
Oh there would be a bigger fallout. Who could ever trust the ABP and their players again? No one likes threats or strong arm tactics. Who would buy anything the ABP or its players advertise?

I wonder how many sponsors of ABP players have contacted the players and told them if they do not play in the US Open then the sponsorship is over?

I wonder if Mica's sponsor is aware of this. If he has the same sponsor she used to post on message boards. But that was a while back.

I wonder if Archer's voice came back. He must have lost it yelling at all the people calling him. Will he be on the radio with Barry?

Rich R.
07-25-2011, 09:04 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jjinfla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh there would be a bigger fallout. Who could ever trust the ABP and their players again? No one likes threats or strong arm tactics. Who would buy anything the ABP or its players advertise?

I wonder how many sponsors of ABP players have contacted the players and told them if they do not play in the US Open then the sponsorship is over?

I wonder if Mica's sponsor is aware of this. If he has the same sponsor she used to post on message boards. But that was a while back.

I wonder if Archer's voice came back. He must have lost it yelling at all the people calling him. Will he be on the radio with Barry? </div></div>
Just to answer a couple of your questions, I believe Mika's main sponsor is currently Mezz Cues. Mika is also in a partnership that owns the US distribution of Mezz cues so I don't think he is going to get in trouble with his sponsor. However, this possibility does exist for other players.
I was at the Maryland 14.1 Championship all weekend. Archer was playing in this event all weekend and, in fact, won it late last night. He seemed like he had a cold but he didn't have any problem talking.

jjinfla
07-25-2011, 10:29 AM
Just think how much better he would play if he played with a Schon or a SouthWest.

This was on the other site:

Archer/Behrman RunOur Radio Segment Delayed
The RunOut Radio broadcast slated for Sunday July 24 will be postponed for a few days due to the illness of Johnny Archer. He called and let us know this and that he looks forward to being able to do the interview as soon as he is back in the pink again. Mr. Archer is unfortunately away from home and living up to a commitment he had made to play in a tournament this week but it is obvious from his voice that he is not feeling well.

Mr. Behrman has been informed of the postponement and is also eager to do the interview whenever possible. AZB will let you all know as soon as the discussion between these two gentlemen has been rescheduled. We would expect this to be sometime later in the week.

By Jerry Forsyth - 2011-07-23

Rich R.
07-26-2011, 07:01 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jjinfla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just think how much better he would play if he played with a Schon or a SouthWest.

This was on the other site:

Archer/Behrman RunOur Radio Segment Delayed
The RunOut Radio broadcast slated for Sunday July 24 will be postponed for a few days due to the illness of Johnny Archer. He called and let us know this and that he looks forward to being able to do the interview as soon as he is back in the pink again. Mr. Archer is unfortunately away from home and living up to a commitment he had made to play in a tournament this week but it is obvious from his voice that he is not feeling well.

Mr. Behrman has been informed of the postponement and is also eager to do the interview whenever possible. AZB will let you all know as soon as the discussion between these two gentlemen has been rescheduled. We would expect this to be sometime later in the week.

By Jerry Forsyth - 2011-07-23
</div></div>
All I can tell you is that Johnny was at the Maryland Straight Pool Championship this past weekend. He played all day Saturday and Sunday. The tournament didn't end until about 11:45 Sunday night and Johnny beat John Schmidt in the finals. Although Johnny seemed to have the sniffles, I spoke to him myself and his voice seemed to be fine.

jjinfla
07-26-2011, 10:11 AM
Hey, we all have priorities in life.

What's more important? To play in a tournament or to keep your word to appear in an interview with Behrman.