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LWW
07-24-2011, 04:19 AM
Many across America, especially those on the far left, are of the belief that there should be no such thing as a "DEBT LIMIT" and that as long as money can be printed and placed into circulation all will be just peachy.

History, sadly. teaches a far different lesson. BTW ... out of respect for Q's unwillingness to actually review any data provided in it's entirety, I shall condense this down to it's main warnings from history and provide a link at the end:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In economics, hyperinflation is inflation that is very high or "out of control". While the real values of the specific economic items generally stay the same in terms of relatively stable foreign currencies, <span style='font-size: 11pt'> ... <span style="color: #3333FF">We are seeing this now with the dollar's continuing slide against many foreign currencies.</span></span>

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Inflació_utan_1946.jpg

Sweeping up the banknotes from the street after the Hungarian pengő was replaced in 1946 </div></div>

OH DEAR! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation)

LWW
07-24-2011, 04:40 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 11pt'>The main cause of hyperinflation is a massive and rapid increase in the amount of money (including bank credit, deposits, and currency) that is not supported by a corresponding growth in the output of goods and services.</span> ... <span style="color: #3366FF">We are seeing the beginnings of this now as the fed has issued fiat dollars at a rate unprecedented in modern US history/</span> ... This results in an imbalance between the supply and demand for the money, accompanied by a complete loss of confidence in the money, similar to a bank run. <span style='font-size: 11pt'><span style="color: #3366FF">This has also begun as people flock to gold, companies and the rich sit on hordes of cash, and foreign assets flee the country.</span></span> ...

Once inflation has become established, sellers try to hedge against it by increasing prices. This leads to further waves of price increases.[8] Enactment of legal tender laws and price controls to prevent discounting the value of paper money relative to gold, silver, hard currency, or commodities, fail to force acceptance of the rapidly increasing money supply which lacks intrinsic value. <span style='font-size: 11pt'><span style="color: #3366FF">Anyone following the flight from the dollar to gold/silver? Anyone notice that the Chinese and Arab and oil producing nations are buying gold by the ton and bailing out of dollars?</span></span> If the entity responsible for increasing bank credit and/or printing currency promotes excessive money creation, with other factors contributing a reinforcing effect, hyperinflation usually continues. <span style='font-size: 11pt'><span style="color: #3366FF">That would be the Federal Reserve.</span></span> ...

Hyperinflation effectively wipes out the purchasing power of private and public savings, distorts the economy in favor of extreme consumption and hoarding of real assets, causes the monetary base, whether specie or hard currency, to flee the country, and makes the afflicted area anathema to investment. Hyperinflation is met with drastic remedies, such as imposing the shock therapy of slashing government expenditures or altering the currency basis. <span style='font-size: 11pt'><span style="color: #3366FF">IOW ... the guilty hammer the poor and middle class to protect the wealthy, and do it all while claiming to be doing it to protect the people.</span></span>

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>As it allows a government to devalue their spending and displace (or avoid) a tax increase, governments have sometimes resorted to excessively loose monetary policy to meet their expenses. Inflation is effectively a regressive consumption tax,[11] but less overt than levied taxes and therefore harder to understand by ordinary citizens.</span> <span style='font-size: 14pt'><span style="color: #3366FF">The American left really needs to come to grips with this simple truth.</span></span>

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>In both Cagan's model and the neo-classical models, a tipping point occurs when the increase in money supply or the drop in the monetary base makes it impossible for a government to improve its financial position. Thus when fiat money is printed, government obligations that are not denominated in money increase in cost by more than the value of the money created.</span> <span style='font-size: 11pt'><span style="color: #3366FF">This is the event horizon we now stand at. We must choose to step away ... or leap headfirst into the abyss.</span></span> ...

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>From this, it might be wondered why any rational government would engage in actions that cause or continue hyperinflation.</span> One reason for such actions is that often the alternative to hyperinflation is either depression or military defeat. The root cause is a matter of more dispute. <span style='font-size: 14pt'>In both classical economics and monetarism, it is always the result of the monetary authority irresponsibly borrowing money to pay all its expenses.</span> <span style='font-size: 11pt'><span style="color: #3366FF">I'm hoping that a few light bulbs have gone off by now.</span></span>

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Bundesarchiv_Bild_102-00104%2C_Inflation%2C_Tapezieren_mit_Geldscheinen. jpg

Germany, 1923: banknotes had lost so much value that they were used as wallpaper. </div></div>

OH MY! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation)

Soflasnapper
07-24-2011, 11:47 AM
Our world monetary system uses debt to create money. Not just at one-to-one ratios, but at 20-1 ratios, or more.

As large amounts of debt have been written off, this multiplier effect has viciously reversed itself. 1 dollar of debt written off causes 20 dollars less in the system, or more, depending on reserve requirements.

As countries, states, cities, brokerage houses, banks, businesses and individuals are all de-leveraging their debt to one degree or another, there is a massive loss of volume of 'money,' as understood correctly in this world monetary system.

It is that LOSS of money that allows a huge amount of more traditional money (which is also debt money, btw) to be issued without the kind of effects supposed in this piece. Because we've taken out massive backhoe sized chunks of money out of the system, and by comparison, we're putting in human sized shovel-fulls, we are in no danger, and cannot possibly, cause inflation or hyperinflation by too great a volume of 'money.' The money volume continues to be way down, and threatens deflation, not inflation.

Sure, given sectors of commodities, whatever, may show speculative price inflation, but that is from large holders of money deciding to flood out those sectors seeking high returns. That's casino wagering bidding up those prices, and bubble effects, not true money volume inflation. And the way it works, when those commodities go up, costing people extra for goods, other goods become starved for demand and do not go up, making a net average of no inflation.

We've seen how all commodities tanked 20 and 30 percent (whatever) in unison, including gold coming down off its prior highs, as the speculative bubble was pierced when people needed their money. That is not consistent with the story that this is all money volume related.

The problem with all standard analyses that may have been correct under the previous steady state economic regime is that always before, the base money and lending levels stayed constant and grew, with minor burp retracements along the business cycle. Now, we are in wholly uncharted waters, where the standard analysis is wrong, since we've had a semi-worldwide vast destruction of debt and money associated with that debt at high multiple levels, as has never really been seen before.

LWW
07-24-2011, 12:06 PM
TRANSLATED:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.starvingofftheland.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/IMG_4672_3.jpg

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>My friends and I believe whatever the regime
spoon feeds us ... we see no reason at all to
question whatever we are told by those who
think for us. Life is so much simpler that way.</span>

http://ozrisk.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/researchstlouisfedorg.png

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>Data such as the above don't trouble us at all because dear leader has assured us that he knows best what is good for us all.</span>

</div></div>

Soflasnapper
07-24-2011, 12:23 PM
That measures the money money, not the debt money's collapsing figure, nor the additional demand in the economy that has been lost from the wealth effect's reversal. ($20 trillion in lost wealth in this country alone has led to about $400 billion in lost demand a year.)

Note as well, and sad to say you are amazingly incompetent at times, the date on this data is as of 2008. Which relates to what is going on since the crash in late 2008 in what specific way that you claim?

To be as clear as you may require to understand this point, this graph ends before the crash of 2008, let alone reflect what's going on now in 2011.

The Fed no longer even publishes the M-3 monetary aggregate figure, because it no longer reflects anything about the real money supply.

cushioncrawler
07-24-2011, 06:57 PM
Yes, but all of this (krappynomix mainly) iz about money. The usofa cake haz got little to do with money, cake (ie real produktion) depends mainly on employment.
Fix employment first. Secondly, secondly, secondly, i forget secondly.
mac.

Qtec
07-25-2011, 01:09 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To be as clear as you may require to understand this point, this graph ends before the crash of 2008, let alone reflect what's going on now in 2011. </div></div>


What a surprise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Q

Qtec
07-25-2011, 01:10 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many across America, especially those on the far left, are of the belief that there should be no such thing as a "DEBT LIMIT" and that as long as money can be printed and placed into circulation all will be just peachy. </div></div>

The USA has been doing that for decades, why stop now?

Q

Qtec
07-25-2011, 01:16 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many across America, especially those on the far left, are of the belief that there should be no such thing as a "DEBT LIMIT" </div></div>

Do you remember when Cantor, McConnell and Boehner stood up to GW and said, " Make cuts or no raising of the the debt. Think of the debt you are unloading onto our grand kids and the next POTUS. Its time to be responsible GW."???????


LMAO


Q

LWW
07-25-2011, 02:00 AM
Nobody here has ever stood up to defend the deficits of the Bush era.

OTOH ... there are morons such as yourself that see running up a decade of 2007 debt in a single year and then doing it for years to come as just peachy because it's dear leader's wish.

LWW
07-25-2011, 02:04 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many across America, especially those on the far left, are of the belief that there should be no such thing as a "DEBT LIMIT" and that as long as money can be printed and placed into circulation all will be just peachy. </div></div>

The USA has been doing that for decades, why stop now?

Q </div></div>

TRANSLATED:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://thepeoplescube.com/red/gallery/supercommissar-maksim-a34/covet-i2654.jpg

Q </div></div>

Soflasnapper
07-25-2011, 01:47 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">TRANSLATED:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.starvingofftheland.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/IMG_4672_3.jpg

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>My friends and I believe whatever the regime
spoon feeds us ... we see no reason at all to
question whatever we are told by those who
think for us. Life is so much simpler that way.</span>

http://ozrisk.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/researchstlouisfedorg.png

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>Data such as the above don't trouble us at all because dear leader has assured us that he knows best what is good for us all.</span>

</div></div> </div></div>

Also note, where is this hyperinflation from the straight up money supply figure shown in your graphic?

Did it happen in '08, in your view? Has it happened in the meantime, close to 3 years later?

Soflasnapper
07-25-2011, 01:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many across America, especially those on the far left, are of the belief that there should be no such thing as a "DEBT LIMIT" and that as long as money can be printed and placed into circulation all will be just peachy. </div></div>

The USA has been doing that for decades, why stop now?

Q </div></div>

TRANSLATED:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://thepeoplescube.com/red/gallery/supercommissar-maksim-a34/covet-i2654.jpg

Q </div></div> </div></div>

That's an obscenity, and you should be ashamed.

The proper graphic representation in that picture should be elderly people in hospitals, rest homes, small apartments with meager possessions, hungry minor children, people having to decide whether to pay rent or eat, and people huddled in freezing dwellings or sweltering to death, as the energy assistance has been cut back.

That's who this money will be taken from, not able-bodied workers. It's a monstrous crime that's being proposed, and all to make sure the poor rich class, which isn't quite rich enough to create jobs yet, will get sufficiently more rich so maybe one day they'll decide investing in jobs, instead of investment vehicles, although that has never really worked, ever.

Investing in business, and jobs, is hard work, and it's a lot easier to make some calls with the broker and put the money out to work, instead of putting people to work.

LWW
07-26-2011, 02:30 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many across America, especially those on the far left, are of the belief that there should be no such thing as a "DEBT LIMIT" and that as long as money can be printed and placed into circulation all will be just peachy. </div></div>

The USA has been doing that for decades, why stop now?

Q </div></div>

TRANSLATED:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://thepeoplescube.com/red/gallery/supercommissar-maksim-a34/covet-i2654.jpg

Q </div></div> </div></div>

That's an obscenity, and <s>you</s> <span style='font-size: 11pt'>THE MOONBAT CRAZY LEFT</span> should be ashamed.</div></div>

I fixed that for you.

Kudos, however, for drudging up every tear jerker false flag argument known to the modern left.

The reality is that the productive class is attempting to save a system that shows compassion for the poor, the disabled, and the elderly.

The regime seeks to use them as movable pieces on the stage of their agitprop theater ... all to pimp the naive minded among us who believe that limitless expense can be continued forever.

LWW
07-26-2011, 02:36 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also note, where is this hyperinflation from the straight up money supply figure shown in your graphic?

Did it happen in '08, in your view? Has it happened in the meantime, close to 3 years later? </div></div>

Have you been to a gas station or grocery market? Paid any attention to the price of gold and silver? Or guns and bullets?

Of course, you never question your beloved messiah who spoon feeds you the "TRUTH" that there is no inflation ... while the price of everything continues to rise.

As has been shown to you ... which prompted you to bury your head ever deeper into the regime's dogma ... if we measured inflation the way we did in the Carter era, we are dancing at 10% right now. If we measured GDP growth by the old standards, our GDP is still dropping ... and at a rapid pace.

You take solace in the fact that the "MINISTRY OF PLENTY" keeps telling you that your rations are being expanded.

Much like the Soviet citizens who kept believing that "IF ONLY STALIN KNEW!" they wouldn't be starving to death in fly over country ... the O-cult will gladly march into the abyss believing dear leader to be completely innocent.

Qtec
07-26-2011, 02:48 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The reality is that <u>the productive class </u>is attempting to save a system that shows compassion for the poor, the disabled, and the elderly.</div></div>

Yeah right.
That's why you and the GOP want to slash spending that hurts ONLY "the poor, the disabled, and the elderly."!




Q...BTW...What does <u>Wall St</u> actually produce?

LWW
07-26-2011, 03:08 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The reality is that <u>the productive class </u>is attempting to save a system that shows compassion for the poor, the disabled, and the elderly.</div></div>

Yeah right.
That's why you and the GOP want to slash spending that hurts ONLY "the poor, the disabled, and the elderly."!</div></div>

How about citing some specifics.

Stretch
07-26-2011, 03:42 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The reality is that <u>the productive class </u>is attempting to save a system that shows compassion for the poor, the disabled, and the elderly.</div></div>

Yeah right.
That's why you and the GOP want to slash spending that hurts ONLY "the poor, the disabled, and the elderly."!</div></div>

How about citing some specifics. </div></div>

Ya, because LWW has spent the last 10 years holed up living on wings (right wing only) and Weenies. St.

Qtec
07-26-2011, 04:05 AM
Planned Parenthood.

Q

LWW
07-26-2011, 04:35 AM
How does that help?

Soflasnapper
07-26-2011, 11:10 AM
I'm paying $3.70 for PREMIUM gas in Oregon right now.

10% is not hyperinflation.

All the runups in the commodities got a haircut, since it was a bubble speculative frenzy effect, not a core inflation effect.

WHERE IS THE HYPERINFLATION?

Unless and until the wages start growing, we cannot have it, as greater costs of more essential goods will require people not buy so much of less essential goods-- inflation in some prices will cause deflation in other prices, and then overall, average inflation will be far lower on a net basis than some of the price increase leaders might indicate.

LWW
07-26-2011, 04:08 PM
The $3.70 is roughly double what it was in 12/08.

That, and hyperinflation doesn't happen in an instant, if you had read any of the data supplied you would know this by now ... and we still have time to turn back from the abyss at this point.

Sadly, too many Americans have been victimized by public education and believe as you do that this can continue forever.

Finally, the US is still in a unique position for the moment as the world's reserve currency ... a benefit the Weimar Republic never had.

But, fear not ... soon all of America's greatness will have been squandered and you can sit in your tent camp with a daily ration of potato soup mumbling "IF ONLY OBAMA KNEW THIS WAS HAPPENING HE WOULD SAVE US ..."