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View Full Version : 9B, Safe-Miss With Strategy On Runouts



Sid_Vicious
08-04-2011, 07:45 PM
OK, first thing you need to know is that I don't manufacture B&Rs in 9B hardly ever, nor take a semi open table after the break and finish a rack, BUT at the same time, almost nobody else I play against here does either. Oh I can find that talent of players who do, but we're talking about A-rated players and down, and they more times than not faulter on the end of a long run here. This brings up a question. If you understand your runout game, and at the same time understand the opponent enough to KNOW it is a very high probability that you or they, will likely remove maybe 4 or 5 balls or more in the run, then cough up badly on not so hard a shot near the end, like the 8 ot 9 itself,,wouldn't it possibly be best to play-the-player and make a safe-miss with strategy included instead of trying the runout at all? This idea came to me once when one of the players in the peanut gallery gave me that very advice when playing a certain player, "Martin, he can't hardly ever get out with a 6-7 ball run, so missing early to let him remove balls for you is good."

Now before all you runout streakers jump me and preach "Get better and make your runouts"...reality is that I nor these general talented players I play will ever do that, age itself is a vicious enemy for that kind of improvement. Otherwise we would have done it already, reality is that the general personal talent pool of players in this class, has seldom improved that much over the last 10 years or so for a finish on a long run in 9B. Saying that though, the 5-7 ball runs are getting to be more frequent than yesteryear, at least for me, yet in 9-Ball, that's not always a good thing when you miss one of the last several balls. The game of 8B certainly has that advice strategy in that it's not good to shoot a lot of balls in if you don't KNOW you have the runout, otherwise a smart opponent will make you suffer with lock ups safeties with you having only one ball left. I think it possibly fits in 9B too, especially against certain talent levels, or with certain players. Thoughts???(about the concept, not tutorial advice on improving the runouts today please) sid

JJFSTAR
08-05-2011, 09:41 AM
Safety play in 9B among “B” players is fairly rare and in 8B is very common. I think purposefully missing in the thought that “more often than not I am going to get an inning with less balls on the table; therefore I will probably have an easer run” is not a good idea.

I have a student in the North Hills on Tuesday afternoon there is a group of “B” players that come to play 9B every day; but they don’t play 9B they play a different game I call it “try n run the table”. I have on several occasions been there all afternoon and not seen a single safety. I would be willing to bet my last dollar that this is true of your group also. They will try this long bank breakup shot long before they would consider the, shoot the ball to the other end of the table and leave the CB behind this small cluster they are trying to break.

Generally speaking 9B around here is played with almost silly over aggressiveness. I would suggest a more thorough analysis of the table and identification of the tougher transitional moments that are very likely EVEN IF THIS DOES NOT INVOLVE A SMALL CLUSTER BREAK.

I do not think that a purposeful miss early in the game is going to get you an easier run on an open table more than half the time. If it were me I would try the strategy that you are advocating BUT THEN try a much more conservative 9B game and really see what does work better. I would be willing to bet that the overly conservative game works a little better than the purposeful miss in the early stage of the game OVER TIME.

Now it will take some humility because those guys are going to think that you have “suddenly turned soft”; they are going to run tables that you played safe on and turn around to you and say “why didn’t you just try and run the table?” after you blow a couple of these safeties. I say give this a chance, the more safety play you do the better you get at it; like anything it may take time and you probably won’t be “an overnight success” with it. Good luck with both and if you do find that your “purposeful miss early” works better than a “much more conservative” game I would certainly like to know.

jjinfla
08-05-2011, 10:02 AM
I thought a definition of an A player is one who does run racks on a regular basis.

In theory if you "dog" the 3 or 4 in the hopes of your opponent then running 3 or 4 balls before he misses you will get to the table having to make only a couple of balls to win.

Sounds good in theory but for some reason in never seemed to work for me.

Probably be better off making 3 or 4 balls and playing safe and then running the table when he gives you BIH.

Sid_Vicious
08-05-2011, 10:46 AM
I really wasn't talking about a totally on-purpose miss early on, but taking a lower percentage shot that would A. Give yourself grand shape or open the table up if you make it and B. If you miss, you miss on the professional side and at least give the opponent a raggedy start with lots of balls on the table. If there's nothing really tied up on the table, then forget that idea right off! I may be guilty of personally over-using safeties, as a few people who have played me over time have expressed, but the chess game aspect intrigues me as much if not more than the pure agressiveness of running out from nowhere. It also frustrates many people who are chomping at the bit to get to the table and streak in balls. This question today is really about a variant of a safety, combined with agression, very early in the game, with the added flavor of almost being certain that the opponent isn't going to run out that consistently from a deep stack of balls from a possible early miss, which is done in a care free state of mine. You have to KNOW you opponent a little, that's important.

Yes an A-player by definition is supposed to be rated because they should finish more consistently. Those doing the rankings are off target many times though, and very many A-players digress in talent, they don't play often, life gives problems, yet they wrongly retain their A status. I agree though that if you have a solid-A, any goofing around early expecting that giving up the table will be a possible advantage after a late run miss, is a bad idea. I'm also talking more about gambling, and many A-players here, unless they happen to be semi-regular money players, don't play like A-players when under cash-pressure, especially after they get down a little. You gotta also remember that there were less-than A-players mentioned, but these are players are keen enough at shot making for several balls, just not runout artists from early on after the break. They can surprise you many times though on 3 and 4 ball runs, even though runs from early after the break is nearly non existent. I'm also saying I'm one of these weak A-players, or simply a badly rated A-player by local standards. Just being called an A, doesn't mean you are an A. That's my take anyway.

Sorry for the vagueness of the original question, but that's what a discussion board is for, begin with a question and then elaborate. sid

08-05-2011, 11:48 AM
Around here, that type of player you describe is not "A-rated players and down..." More like C+ to barely B players and down.

For playing C+ players, it's a decent strategy, especially if you don't runout much either.


Eric

jjinfla
08-05-2011, 11:49 AM
I See. Now the truth is out. You really are an A++ player but you want people to believe you are much less. Too late for that.

Actually here in central Florida no one is rated using the A, B, C, etc system. It is strictly the number system given to players by the TD. You move up or down strictly by how much money you win in the tournaments. Strictly subjective on the TD's part. At least that was the way is used to was. I haven't played in a tournament in several years. I am thinking about going to one Sunday.

Sid_Vicious
08-05-2011, 01:05 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jjinfla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I See. Now the truth is out. You really are an A++ player but you want people to believe you are much less. Too late for that.

Actually here in central Florida no one is rated using the A, B, C, etc system. It is strictly the number system given to players by the TD. You move up or down strictly by how much money you win in the tournaments. Strictly subjective on the TD's part. At least that was the way is used to was. I haven't played in a tournament in several years. I am thinking about going to one Sunday.


</div></div>

No I am not an A-player per the runout equation, just one of the people who has put in 20 years, lots in leagues, around Dallas, played A and even A-Masters one season(that was a rude awakening), but I can even lose just as much even in B-league or against a 2-3 APA or TAP player on any given night. Injustice comes though because many TDs and some LDs here locally still call me an A-player during a tournament, along with many others who get mislabeled as well. It's not just me, the systems around here are screwy on how people get assignments to a status in pool, some just because they played in a higher league at some point. You can find a higher ranking status a lot easier than you can get downgraded. It bites when going to play in local handicapped tournament and get stacked up with the A crowd, cuz money is money, no sense tossing it away. Makes a lot more sense to me to gamble and wrangling a decent spot. At least I'm rating myself that way.

We are getting a bit off topic here though, but at the same time I find that I can sometimes "manufacture" wins in these mismatched events by "playing the player", i.e, throwing early safes to break their stride, etc. Now that I think about it, I've watched "bigger" players lose against "smaller" players at times because of the unusual turns the innings takes sometimes. You take 2 real A players, and there is usually only 2 innings on average...the innings end in expected fashion most of the time. You mix in a shotmaker who's lucky to boot, and it's funny how the bigger player will lose, at least in short races or single games. Very off innings come from that matchup many times.

One thing I've been told is that the A-class player in Phoenix is stronger than the A-class players around Dallas, and I am sure Phoenix is just an example. I'm sure Dallas A-players probably out class the same group in Little Rock or Atlanta. The ranking systems around the country are just to muddled to ever be called acurate.

Oh well, like I said, we're getting off topic. Jm2c sid

SpiderMan
08-05-2011, 02:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing I've been told is that the A-class player in Phoenix is stronger than the A-class players around Dallas, and I am sure Phoenix is just an example. I'm sure Dallas A-players probably out class the same group in Little Rock or Atlanta. The ranking systems around the country are just to muddled to ever be called acurate.
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When I was last in Phoenix, they were using a numerical system that seemed to be based on performance rather than perception. They had a quasi-state-wide ranking system, an online database, a ratings board, and tournaments whose directors recorded players' results. Certain tournaments were open to certain ranges of player skill ratings, and if you consistently won you would move up. I'm sure sandbagging occurs, but I played tournaments every night for a week without encountering anyone who seemed 'way off from his rating.

At the time, I was an APA-7 8-Ball player in Dallas, probably a "B" by the "runout rating" system, and I was considered an "A" in my Dallas BCA league, which was at that time operated by Randy Goettlicher. So, as you note, often an "A" in Dallas is not as strong as might be presumed elsewhere. Our Dallas A/B designations (if derived from league-director ratings) should be considered stricly local, and they definitely suffer from "grade inflation".

BTW, I was rated as a 7 in the Arizona tournament system. Since I've improved, I think I'd probably rate an Arizona 8 by now. Rod Elliot, who posts here, was my "host" in Phoenix. As I recall, he was rated a 10.

SpiderMan

Fran Crimi
08-05-2011, 04:17 PM
I would say don't do it. There are too many variables that you can't control. If you don't think you can run out a particular layout, then play safe shots until you feel comfortable enough to go for the win, or pocket 1 or 2 balls and then play safe to get you closer to a comfortable runout.

You have a much better chance of controlling the outcome of a safety shot than trying to control the outcome of shooting a low percentage shot/miss, or worse, turning over an open table to your opponent. Not a good idea, even if they don't generally run out. When they're shooting, you no longer are in control of your own destiny.

Sid_Vicious
08-05-2011, 05:11 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would say don't do it. There are too many variables that you can't control. If you don't think you can run out a particular layout, then play safe shots until you feel comfortable enough to go for the win, or pocket 1 or 2 balls and then play safe to get you closer to a comfortable runout.

You have a much better chance of controlling the outcome of a safety shot than trying to control the outcome of shooting a low percentage shot/miss, or worse, turning over an open table to your opponent. Not a good idea, even if they don't generally run out. When they're shooting, you no longer are in control of your own destiny. </div></div>

I think you gave the best answer Fran. Thanks all! sid

jjinfla
08-05-2011, 05:27 PM
Are you looking for a strategy to win the game/match. Or just to make the game/match look a lot closer than it really is?

I get the feeling that you are an "A" player who wants to be thought of as a "B" player by your opponent and are playing a "C" player who believes he is a "B" player.

Sid_Vicious
08-05-2011, 11:18 PM
You, just like me, over think stuff here in these discussions. sid

jjinfla
08-06-2011, 05:18 AM
Several years ago I realized that I had reached my level of incompetancy in pool and no matter what I did from then on my improvement in the game would be miniscule. That was very depressing until I realized that there were a whole lot of people playing the game that didn't understand what I had learned. So it was a blessing in disguise.

As a result, I found that it was a lot easier to talk a good game than to actually play a good game.

Corey lost to Bucky? Who is Bucky? Now that is an accomplishment - Bucky beat Corey. I could play Corey all day long and probably never win a game. Even if he gave me the 5, and all the balls above the 5 and all the balls below the 5.

Sid_Vicious
08-06-2011, 12:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jjinfla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you looking for a strategy to win the game/match. Or just to make the game/match look a lot closer than it really is?

I get the feeling that you are an "A" player who wants to be thought of as a "B" player by your opponent and are playing a "C" player who believes he is a "B" player.
</div></div>

"I get the feeling that you are an "A" player who wants to be thought of as a "B" player by your opponent and are playing a "C" player who believes he is a "B" player."

That's what gamblers do, right ;-) sid

jjinfla
08-06-2011, 02:21 PM
Yep. Besides having a good game a good gambler has to be a good actor. Contrary what many people have told me it is better to receive than to give. Especially receiving the 8 when you should be giving the 7.