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LWW
08-10-2011, 01:54 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MADISON, Wis. - Republicans held on to control of the Wisconsin Senate on Tuesday, beating back four Democratic challengers in a recall election despite a political backlash against GOP support for Gov. Scott Walker's effort to curb public employees' union rights.
Fueled by millions of dollars from national labor groups, the attempt to remove GOP incumbents served as both a referendum on Walker's conservative revolution and could provide a new gauge of the public mood less than a year after Republicans made sweeping gains in this state and many others.
Two Democratic incumbents face recalls next week, but even if Democrats win those they will still be in the minority.


Read more: http://azstarnet.com/news/national/govt-...l#ixzz1UbuF176r (http://azstarnet.com/news/national/govt-and-politics/article_025904ed-c128-5932-b8b5-72ce40359191.html#ixzz1UbuF176r) </div></div> http://images.pictureshunt.com/pics/y/you_fail-14145.jpg

Sev
08-10-2011, 05:20 AM
Poor baby. Poor baby. -Nancy Pelosi.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t278/Sevelli/Emoticons/75.gifhttp://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t278/Sevelli/Emoticons/24.gifhttp://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t278/Sevelli/Emoticons/15.gif

LWW
08-10-2011, 05:34 AM
This can only be the work of ...
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wait for it ...
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http://www.cringer.com/images/evil-bush-sticker.jpg
<span style='font-size: 26pt'><span style='font-family: Comic Sans MS'>B-B-B-BOOO0SH!!!! </span></span>

Sev
08-10-2011, 06:07 AM
We could be witnessing the death of progressivism.

LWW
08-10-2011, 06:39 AM
Not a chance.

The desire for one group to impose their will upon another will never end.

Sev
08-10-2011, 07:19 AM
True.
However the grip seems to be weakening a bit.

Soflasnapper
08-10-2011, 12:23 PM
Yes, the grip is being loosened, and that loosening is being feared.

So much, that the plain facts of what happened there are being omitted, and some here turn to the warped reporting of a key insider newspaper FROM FREAKING ARIZONA (?!?!) to help hide these facts.

For, another fact to mention, and it is a key fact as to the outcome here, and I didn't see this mentioned in the article, the reason the Democrats failed to gain control of the Senate was that their SUCCESSFUL RECALLING OF TWO REPUBLICANS was not enough, needing 3 to have had that effect.

That they got 2 scalps is not a failure, but an amazing accomplishment that barely fell short of the ultimate goal.

Whether you agree with that characterization or not, surely it is a key fact, and omitting it is a sign of dishonest reporting.

Yes, the outside money came in huge, and while the union money and ground effort is referenced, nowhere did it mention that the money from out of state supporting the recalled GOP senators was very large itself.

LWW
08-10-2011, 03:45 PM
From the article:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until this year, there had been only 20 attempts since 1913 to recall any of the nation's state lawmakers from office. Just 13 of the efforts were successful.

Read more: http://azstarnet.com/news/national/govt-...l#ixzz1UfH9EGUc (http://azstarnet.com/news/national/govt-and-politics/article_025904ed-c128-5932-b8b5-72ce40359191.html#ixzz1UfH9EGUc) </div></div>

Any rational analysis would call spending $35M to get half of the prior historical average as an epic fail.

PAR VOUS:

http://pix.auctiva.com/pix/10/00/06/CRYING_TOWEL_TOW-04.jpg

Soflasnapper
08-10-2011, 05:07 PM
The unions relied on ground forces, as well as some money. I doubt that they outspent the pro-Walker/pro-GOP side, and $35 mil was the TOTAL spent, not just the total for one side.

LWW
08-10-2011, 05:36 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The unions relied on ground forces, as well as some money. I doubt that they outspent the pro-Walker/pro-GOP side, and $35 mil was the TOTAL spent, not just the total for one side. </div></div>

Wrong.

Again.

FOX pegs (D) spending at $35M.

The reich wing ABC NEWShas it at $30M (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/30-million-pouring-influence-wisconsin-recall-elections/story?id=14235471&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter) ... almost all of it from out of state.

The reich wing Reuters says $37M (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/10/us-wisconsin-recalls-analysis-idUSTRE77972W20110810) in total.

So ... by the most favorable estimate, the (D)'s outspent the (R)'s by 30:7 and lost.

At the least favorable estimate it was a 35:2 ratio.

If you average it ... they outspent the GOP by around a 7:1 ratio, and history shows that should have won 4 instead of 2 on average.

You can spin this however you want ... you merely make yourself look to be an agitprop.

Any way you try to spin this ... it is still an epic fail.

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/funny-pictures-bird-cat-cage.jpg

Sev
08-10-2011, 07:39 PM
Nice.

LWW
08-11-2011, 05:16 AM
http://kizzyinchainz.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/screaming.jpg

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>They are in deep mourning over their crushing defeat.</span>

Soflasnapper
08-11-2011, 12:38 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The unions relied on ground forces, as well as some money. I doubt that they outspent the pro-Walker/pro-GOP side, and $35 mil was the TOTAL spent, not just the total for one side. </div></div>

Wrong.

Again.

FOX pegs (D) spending at $35M.

The reich wing ABC NEWShas it at $30M (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/30-million-pouring-influence-wisconsin-recall-elections/story?id=14235471&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter) ... almost all of it from out of state.

The reich wing Reuters says $37M (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/10/us-wisconsin-recalls-analysis-idUSTRE77972W20110810) in total.

So ... by the most favorable estimate, the (D)'s outspent the (R)'s by 30:7 and lost.

At the least favorable estimate it was a 35:2 ratio.

If you average it ... they outspent the GOP by around a 7:1 ratio, and history shows that should have won 4 instead of 2 on average.

You can spin this however you want ... you merely make yourself look to be an agitprop.

Any way you try to spin this ... it is still an epic fail.

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/funny-pictures-bird-cat-cage.jpg
</div></div>

Wrong, <span style='font-size: 14pt'>wrong </span><span style='font-size: 20pt'>wrong!</span> (Did I mention you were wrong?)

Yes, outside money swamped the money from inside the state.

Yes, it was in the $30 million dollar range.

No, it wasn't all Dem/union side money, but EQUAL MONEY FROM BOTH SIDES. Why would you ever supposed differently? What kind of sources are you using, and why don't you read more carefully?

Here's how the ABC reporting had it:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> McCabe says voters in Wisconsin are "desperate for it to end" and the ads are "overwhelmingly negative" and "in the gutter." Despite both Republicans and Democrats claiming they are being outspent, he says it's close.

"I think the money battle is remarkably close," McCabe said, referring to both candidates and outside groups. "With interest groups…based on what we are seeing, there is a very slight edge to Republican groups, but not by much." [from page two]

[..]

"When it comes down to turnout and who votes, based on the primaries there might be an edge to Democrats, who've got the most stirred-up voters, but when it comes to campaigning and the money game, it's pretty close to a draw," McCabe said.

Jacobs agreed, saying he doesn't think it's possible to tell right now and polls are both close and unreliable when many Wisconsinites go to their summer cabins in the north, but the Democrats "have an outside chance" of gaining three seats Tuesday, stressing it is a "possibility." [from page three]</div></div>

Link to ABC story, page 2. (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/30-million-pouring-influence-wisconsin-recall-elections/story?id=14235471&page=2)

Here, a Tea Party spokesperson says 'the left' has poured nearly $14 million into the state (actually UNDER half of the alleged totals):

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> “The purpose of this tour is to help change the debate,” explained Tea Party Express communications director Levi Russell. “The left has pumped nearly 14 million dollars of frenzied fear mongering into the state, and waged war against the newly elected Governor and State Senators who are trying to balance the budget and keep the state economy on track</div></div>

Yahoo's story. (http://news.yahoo.com/outsiders-spend-millions-wisconsin-recall-elections-042423764.html)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reports, the labor-backed group We Are Wisconsin announced that it raised a total of $9.7 million for the recalls. The numbers are not as clear on the other side, but the paper reports that conservative groups are estimated to have actually spent slightly more than the liberals on the elections, though not by a huge margin.</div></div>

The cited article, linked at this link, says that surveys of the television spending for campaign ads in Milwaukee show the conservative side leading in those expenditures.

From the Talking Points Memo article. (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/08/badger-state-bucks-lots-of-money-spent-on-the-wisconsin-recalls.php)

LWW
08-11-2011, 01:08 PM
None of which supports your conclusion or disproves mine.

Imagine that?

Soflasnapper
08-11-2011, 06:27 PM
You said:

FOX pegs (D) spending at $35M.

The reich wing ABC NEWShas it at $30M ... almost all of it from out of state.

The reich wing Reuters says $37M in total.

So ... by the most favorable estimate, the (D)'s outspent the (R)'s by 30:7 and lost.

At the least favorable estimate it was a 35:2 ratio.

If you average it ... they outspent the GOP by around a 7:1 ratio, and history shows that should have won 4 instead of 2 on average.

For which you've shown no breakout of relative proportion of source, and no citation that actually said this was ALL UNION OR LIBERAL MONIES. These sources ballparked the TOTAL of ALL THE OUTSIDE MONEY.

YOU (and you alone, unless you have some idiot or lying commentator saying the same thing), then decided that all the outside money was from the Dem-supporting outsiders, and NONE of the outside money (only the inside money), was from the GOP supporters.

Is that sensible in the slightest? A critical bellweather political situation like this, and your assumption (did you ever have any citation to the contrary? I'd like to see it!) was that, boy, those cash-strapped conservative billionaires really had no choice but to sit on their wallets??!@?!?!

I've cited several sources, including professionals in Wisconsin cited by Wisconsin newspapers, stating that the outside money was close to evenly split.

If that is so, it guts your point, which point I've cited above. That even outspending the conservatives by a huge margin, the Dems failed.

The DEMS did NOT outspend the GOP by any large margin, likely by no margin at all, so your claim has been obliterated into smithereens.

Unless you have links to data showing something other than what my cited sources say.

Sev
08-11-2011, 06:38 PM
I cant wait till next weeks recall.
It would be nice to see both dems booted. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

LWW
08-12-2011, 01:29 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless you have links to data showing something other than what my cited sources say. </div></div>

Here's 1:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Democratic state Sen. Bob Wirch of Pleasant Prairie has outraised and outspent his Republican opponent in a recall election that will be decided next week.
Wirch reported Tuesday that he had raised $257,000 for the year and spent $200,000. His challenger, Republican Jonathan Steitz, has raised just $72,000 for the year and spent $49,000.


Read more: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/g...l#ixzz1UnV7mcDu (http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/elections/article_8ae88516-c2ce-11e0-bf3b-001cc4c002e0.html#ixzz1UnV7mcDu) </div></div>

LWW
08-12-2011, 01:30 AM
quote=Soflasnapper]Unless you have links to data showing something other than what my cited sources say. [/quote]

Here's 2:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Democratic Sen. Jim Holperin also outraised and outspent his Republican challenger Kim Simac. Holperin raised $494,000 for the year compared with $221,000 for Simac.

Read more: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/g...l#ixzz1UnVXWhuD (http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/elections/article_8ae88516-c2ce-11e0-bf3b-001cc4c002e0.html#ixzz1UnVXWhuD) </div></div>

And those are for the last 2 recalls.

LWW
08-12-2011, 01:36 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You said:Unless you have links to data showing something other than what my cited sources say. </div></div>

Here's 3:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[These] recall elections have have such unusual turnout and have received such inordinate attention from national third-party groups trying to influence the races and send a message. In fact, the recalls have essentially been special elections on steroids, with spending reaching nearly $30 million.

As of a couple weeks ago, about two-thirds of that has gone to benefit Democrats, and Republicans acknowledge that they were essentially caught flat-footed by the whole thing. </div></div>

OH DEAR! (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/the-wisconsin-recall-vacuum/2011/08/08/gIQAn3eH4I_blog.html)

LWW
08-12-2011, 01:40 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless you have links to data showing something other than what my cited sources say. </div></div>

Here's 4:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here are the total receipts and expenditures for the eight Democrat-led recall campaigns:

Committee to Recall Darling: $17,549 in receipts, $16,814 in disbursements.

Committee to Recall (Sen. Robert) Cowles (R-Green Bay): $57,791 in receipts, $57,301 in disbursements,

Committee to Recall Grothman: $7,434 in receipts, $7,434 in disbursements.

Committee to Recall Harsdorf: $67,646 in receipts, $67,156 in disbursements.

Committee to Recall Lazich: $6,334 in receipts, $6,334 in disbursements.

Committee to Recall Kapanke: $15,175 in receipts, $15,175 in disbursements.

Committee to Recall (Sen. Randy) Hopper (R-Fond du Lac): $40,143 in receipts, $39,653 in disbursements.

Committee to Recall (Sen. Luther) Olsen (R-Ripon): $37,032 in receipts, $36,292 in disbursements.

And here, by comparison, are receipts and expenditures for the campaigns against Democratic senators, from the four reports filed so far:

Committee to Recall (Senate Minority Leader) Mark Miller (D-Monona): $2,112 in receipts, $1,099 in disbursements.

(Sen.) Jim Holperin (D-Conover) Recall Committee: $6,110 in receipts, $4,636 in disbursements.

Recall (Sen.) Dave Hansen (D-Green Bay): $1,114 in receipts, $1,096 in disbursements.

Taxpayers to Recall (Sen.) Robert Wirch (D-Pleasant Prairie): $10,744 in receipts, $4,208 in disbursements. </div></div>

OH MY! (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/119134849.html)

LWW
08-12-2011, 01:43 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless you have links to data showing something other than what my cited sources say. </div></div>

Heres 5:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$20 million – that’s how much labor unions and their Democratic supporters reportedly poured into the recall elections in Wisconsin. They outspent Republicans two-to-one. And yet they fell short at taking control of the Wisconsin state senate, only winning two out of the six Republican seats they attempted to recall.

It’s a crushing blow to the unions, especially coming on the heels of their failure to oust Wisconsin Supreme Court Justice David Prosser just a few months ago. </div></div>

GOOD GOLLY! (http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/08/10/wisconsin-defeat-for-big-labor/)

LWW
08-12-2011, 01:45 AM
Heres 6:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Statewide, committees to recall Republican state Senators have so far raised and spent significantly more than the committees to recall Democrats that have filed finance reports, documents show. </div></div>

HOLY MOSES! (http://www.wiscnews.com/baraboonewsrepublic/news/local/article_1d1b40f2-623c-11e0-b08e-001cc4c002e0.html)

LWW
08-12-2011, 01:48 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless you have links to data showing something other than what my cited sources say. </div></div>

Here's 7:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So much for the recall of the Wisconsin Senate Republicans being a “grass roots” thing, eh? Guess the Democrats are making good use of the money that’s been funneled to them by unions.

Campaign finance reports are now posted for the recall efforts against eight Republican state senators, and it looks as if the Democrats are spending and organizing at a higher level than their counterparts.

It also looks as if the state Democratic Party itself, and a political action committee called Wisconsin Progress, are responsible for most of the spending in those campaigns, whereas the campaigns aimed at recalling Democratic senators collect and spend money independently of one another and of the Republican Party. </div></div>

JUMPING BUTTERBALLS! (http://khassy2010.wordpress.com/2011/04/03/democrats-outspending-republicans-in-wis-recall-races/)

LWW
08-12-2011, 01:56 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The DEMS did NOT outspend the GOP by any large margin, likely by no margin at all, so your claim has been obliterated into smithereens.

Unless you have links to data showing something other than what my cited sources say. </div></div>

http://www.glogster.com/media/4/28/21/26/28212676.jpg

As my good friend snoopy once said:


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I must say in LWW's defence, he really shot down Sofla with this line by line rebuttal.

Q </div></div>

Soflasnapper
08-12-2011, 07:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless you have links to data showing something other than what my cited sources say. </div></div>

Here's 1:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Democratic state Sen. Bob Wirch of Pleasant Prairie has outraised and outspent his Republican opponent in a recall election that will be decided next week.
Wirch reported Tuesday that he had raised $257,000 for the year and spent $200,000. His challenger, Republican Jonathan Steitz, has raised just $72,000 for the year and spent $49,000.


Read more: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/g...l#ixzz1UnV7mcDu (http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/elections/article_8ae88516-c2ce-11e0-bf3b-001cc4c002e0.html#ixzz1UnV7mcDu) </div></div>
</div></div>

From this link, admitting what all know to be the truth (except for LWW):

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> All the candidates are being outspent by outside interest groups on both sides which are pouring tens of millions of dollars into the races.

Read more: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/g...l#ixzz1UrqEcVvR (http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/elections/article_8ae88516-c2ce-11e0-bf3b-001cc4c002e0.html#ixzz1UrqEcVvR)
</div></div>

Which makes the details of any particular race's spending BY THE CANDIDATES quite aside from any relevant point.

We grade this effort, F for FAIL.

Soflasnapper
08-12-2011, 07:19 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">quote=Soflasnapper]Unless you have links to data showing something other than what my cited sources say. </div></div>

Here's 2:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Democratic Sen. Jim Holperin also outraised and outspent his Republican challenger Kim Simac. Holperin raised $494,000 for the year compared with $221,000 for Simac.

Read more: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/g...l#ixzz1UnVXWhuD (http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/elections/article_8ae88516-c2ce-11e0-bf3b-001cc4c002e0.html#ixzz1UnVXWhuD) </div></div>

And those are for the last 2 recalls.
[/quote]

Ibid my just prior critique, which see.

F, FAIL!

Soflasnapper
08-12-2011, 07:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You said:Unless you have links to data showing something other than what my cited sources say. </div></div>

Here's 3:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[These] recall elections have have such unusual turnout and have received such inordinate attention from national third-party groups trying to influence the races and send a message. In fact, the recalls have essentially been special elections on steroids, with spending reaching nearly $30 million.

As of a couple weeks ago, about two-thirds of that has gone to benefit Democrats, and Republicans acknowledge that they were essentially caught flat-footed by the whole thing. </div></div>

OH DEAR! (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/the-wisconsin-recall-vacuum/2011/08/08/gIQAn3eH4I_blog.html)
</div></div>

<span style='font-size: 20pt'>As of a couple weeks ago</span> ???

How about AT THE FREAKING END OF THE PROCESS?

F, FAIL!

Soflasnapper
08-13-2011, 10:11 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless you have links to data showing something other than what my cited sources say. </div></div>

Here's 4:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here are the total receipts and expenditures for the eight Democrat-led recall campaigns:

Committee to Recall Darling: $17,549 in receipts, $16,814 in disbursements.

Committee to Recall (Sen. Robert) Cowles (R-Green Bay): $57,791 in receipts, $57,301 in disbursements,

Committee to Recall Grothman: $7,434 in receipts, $7,434 in disbursements.

[etc.] </div></div>

OH MY! (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/119134849.html)
</div></div>

Now THIS one seems to have potential to show what you're claiming. Even the headline looks conclusive. But when we look at what's between the headline and the lead paragraph, the trouble with this citation is found:

[quote]Democrats outspending Republicans in recall races

By Tom Tolan of the Journal Sentinel

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>April 3, 2011 </span>|(488) Comments

Campaign finance reports are now posted for the recall efforts against eight Republican state senators, and <span style='font-size: 14pt'>it looks as if the Democrats are spending and organizing at a higher level than their counterparts</span>.[/unquote]

Whoops!

As the writer's provisional claim indicates ("looks as if"), the reason he couldnt' REALLY say is the date of this report, from early April. There was a lot more spending to come after that time, and so, the race after the first lap isn't indicative of who ended up in front.

A better try, but because this is a stale 4-month old early figure, once again, we judge F, FAIL!

(The pattern emerges, that you may have legitimately remembered all these early reports of vast outspending by Dems, but never updated your information to reflect the last frenzied months of spending. During which, apparently, if the Dems ever had a huge lead in spending, that lead was trimmed down to an even heat on expenditures.)

Soflasnapper
08-13-2011, 10:23 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless you have links to data showing something other than what my cited sources say. </div></div>

Heres 5:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$20 million – that’s how much labor unions and their Democratic supporters reportedly poured into the recall elections in Wisconsin. They outspent Republicans two-to-one. And yet they fell short at taking control of the Wisconsin state senate, only winning two out of the six Republican seats they attempted to recall.

It’s a crushing blow to the unions, especially coming on the heels of their failure to oust Wisconsin Supreme Court Justice David Prosser just a few months ago. </div></div>

GOOD GOLLY! (http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/08/10/wisconsin-defeat-for-big-labor/)

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This piece suffers from a different problem than the others. It takes a figure that's already been rejected as not stating anything about the final tallies of spending (that some time before the end, the Dems had at that time been shown to have spent 2/3rds of the money), calls the Dem side money 'reportedly $20 million,' and then apparently uses the $30 million figure to assert it was 2-1.

So, it offers no new cited totals, uses an older report well before the end of the race (weeks before), and while therefore itself is rejected because of use of stale, non-current data, it contradicts what YOU said:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 14pt'>FOX pegs (D) spending at $35M.</span>

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>The reich wing ABC NEWShas it at $30M </span>... almost all of it from out of state.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>The reich wing Reuters says $37M in total.</span>

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>So ... by the most favorable estimate, the (D)'s outspent the (R)'s by 30:7 and lost.</span>

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>At the least favorable estimate it was a 35:2 ratio.
</span>
If you average it ... <span style='font-size: 14pt'>they outspent the GOP by around a 7:1 </span>ratio, and history shows that should have won 4 instead of 2 on average. </div></div>

So, here the source you quote to prove you were right shows a 2-1 ratio, slightly below your 'average' 7:1 ratio. Why the disparity?

Because THIS source puts the D side spending at $20 million, not $30, $35, or $37 million.

Now, those reported TOTALS were for the entire outside figure, both sides (which you didn't seem to realize was possibly what they were saying). If total spending was $37 m, and total D spending was $20 m, then total GOP spending was $17 m.

This would indicate an 18% edge in spending for the Dem side, not the mis-reported 2-1 in this piece, and still less your super-inflated 7-1 ratio (which is based on your inability to read, or find in the first place TO read, reliable and current information).

We rate this one F=FAIL as well.

Soflasnapper
08-13-2011, 10:43 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Heres 6:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Statewide, committees to recall Republican state Senators have so far raised and spent significantly more than the committees to recall Democrats that have filed finance reports, documents show. </div></div>

HOLY MOSES! (http://www.wiscnews.com/baraboonewsrepublic/news/local/article_1d1b40f2-623c-11e0-b08e-001cc4c002e0.html) </div></div>

As of April 9, that may have been true. No reason to doubt it.

It is a meaningless early data point considering there was about 4 months to go in spending. One doesn't look at the score after the 1st quarter in football, or after the 3rd inning in baseball, to see who came out on top. The winner for points, for runs, or for fund raising, is determined by the FINAL AMOUNT, not any intermediary subtotal.

This is an astonishing display of bad evidence you've put together, taken as a whole. None of it shows what you claim as to the ratio of final spending between the sides.

Did you count on nobody clicking through, or nobody seeing the date lines of these articles?

Or, to be honest, did you think these DID prove what you were saying?

This is a tour de force in reducing your already diminished reputation to the height of an ant hill.

Either you don't understand what you're reading, or just blatantly lie about what it means?

Wow! Almost forgot, F=FAIL on this one as well.

Soflasnapper
08-13-2011, 10:45 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless you have links to data showing something other than what my cited sources say. </div></div>

Here's 7:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So much for the recall of the Wisconsin Senate Republicans being a “grass roots” thing, eh? Guess the Democrats are making good use of the money that’s been funneled to them by unions.

Campaign finance reports are now posted for the recall efforts against eight Republican state senators, and it looks as if the Democrats are spending and organizing at a higher level than their counterparts.

It also looks as if the state Democratic Party itself, and a political action committee called Wisconsin Progress, are responsible for most of the spending in those campaigns, whereas the campaigns aimed at recalling Democratic senators collect and spend money independently of one another and of the Republican Party. </div></div>

JUMPING BUTTERBALLS! (http://khassy2010.wordpress.com/2011/04/03/democrats-outspending-republicans-in-wis-recall-races/)
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Sheesh, another early APRIL article?

COMPLETE FAILURE to show anything relevant to supporting your claims.

Not entirely surprising, as this isn't the first time. 7 times, just in this thread, although showing us your best stuff, I'm sure.

<span style='font-size: 20pt'>HOW WILL EL DUB DUB SPIN THIS????</span>

LWW
08-13-2011, 11:18 AM
No need for me to spin at all.

I have presented my case.

You have presented nothing to support yours.

You have gouged your eyes out rather than look at anything that doesn't support what the party has spoon fed to you.

IOW ... nothing new here at all.

Soflasnapper
08-13-2011, 12:17 PM
I looked at everything you posted to support your position. Stil have both my eyes, btw. None of it did.

You used reports from months ago, and make the suppressed assumption that whatever the ratio was reported to be months ago is the same ratio that it ended up to be. Without any evidence that it is so.

I cited contemporaneous assessments of Wisconsin experts, that said the money was close to evenly spent on both sides, with a slight edge to the GOP. I'll re-cite them below to remind you.

You cite as support for your 7-1 spending ratio claim, a report that said it was 2-1, and that was based on a several weeks'-old report that 2/3rds of the money was at that time going toward the Dem side. Which doesn't support your low 'average' claim of 7-1 whatsoever-- it says your number is 3.5 x too large. As of several weeks ago.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Right-Wing Media Erase Conservative Cash In WI Recall Elections
August 12, 2011 3:13 pm ET — 165 Comments

Right-wing media have falsely claimed that "unions and left-wing groups" spent roughly $30 million, or have otherwise ignored money spent by conservative groups, to influence the recent Wisconsin recall elections. In fact, about $30 million was reportedly spent by right-wing and left-wing groups combined, "with a slight edge possible to Republicans overall."

[...]

... While Ignoring Reportedly Equal Spending By Right-Wing Groups

Mother Jones: "The $31 Million Spent On The Recalls ... Splits Evenly Between Left- And Right-Leaning Groups." From an August 5 Mother Jones article:

The $31 million spent on the recalls -- the six August 9 elections and two more targeting Democratic state senators on August 16 -- splits evenly between left- and right-leaning groups. Where the spending is lopsided, [Wisconsin Democracy Campaign Executive Director Mike] McCabe says, is between the candidates and outside spending groups. In-state and out-of-state independent advocacy groups have dropped five times more than the candidates. Not that the candidates are struggling: GOP state Sens. Alberta Darling and Dan Kapanke have both smashed the state senate spending record of $722,000 in their recall races; so far, Darling has spent more than $1 million and Kapanke more than $800,000. (For comparison, the average winning congressional campaign in 2010 cost $1.4 million, a figure Darling could exceed.)

[...]

While the spending is more or less even, here's the big difference between the two sides: The left-leaning groups usually disclose their donors, while the right-leaning groups mostly don't. For McCabe, the geyser of dark money is the big story of the recalls. He says two-thirds of the recall spending derives from undisclosed sources, and he blames the Supreme Court's Citizens United decision for allowing so much anonymous spending. [Mother Jones, 8/5/11]

Reuters: "Among Interest Groups ... Spending Has Been About Even With A Slight Edge Possible To Republicans Overall." From an August 4 Reuters article:

Spending on recall election campaigns for Wisconsin's Senate, seen as a potential gauge of public sentiment, has reached about $30 million, largely by outside interest groups, a nonpartisan watchdog said on Thursday.

[...]

Last year, registered special interests spent what was a then stunning $3.75 million on Wisconsin state Senate and Assembly races combined, a year in which both sides of the legislature shifted to Republican control, McCabe said.

Among interest groups, McCabe said, spending has been about even with a slight edge possible to Republicans overall. The Democratic We Are Wisconsin has been the biggest single spender this year at $7.9 million, while Republican spending was divided more among multiple groups. [Reuters, 8/4/11]

ABC News: "Spending Through Monday Was Estimated At About $28 Million From Outside Groups On Both Sides." An August 9 ABC News article reported:

The level of campaign spending has been unprecedented, especially considering it is a recall effort. Spending through Monday was estimated at about $28 million from outside groups on both sides of the aisle and about $5 million spent by the candidates themselves, according to the Wisconsin Democracy Campaign.

That number was expected to increase by today. Wisconsin Democracy Campaign officials "estimate at this point it's about even," research director Mike Buelow said of spending on both sides.

The group will do a full accounting of spending after the election and will have a clearer picture of whether the spending totals are even. [ABC News, 8/9/11]
</div></div>

Link includes quoting right wing sources making the same false claims you've taken at face value. (http://mediamatters.org/research/201108120024)

Stretch
08-13-2011, 12:17 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Heres 6:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Statewide, committees to recall Republican state Senators have so far raised and spent significantly more than the committees to recall Democrats that have filed finance reports, documents show. </div></div>

HOLY MOSES! (http://www.wiscnews.com/baraboonewsrepublic/news/local/article_1d1b40f2-623c-11e0-b08e-001cc4c002e0.html) </div></div>

As of April 9, that may have been true. No reason to doubt it.

It is a meaningless early data point considering there was about 4 months to go in spending. One doesn't look at the score after the 1st quarter in football, or after the 3rd inning in baseball, to see who came out on top. The winner for points, for runs, or for fund raising, is determined by the FINAL AMOUNT, not any intermediary subtotal.

This is an astonishing display of bad evidence you've put together, taken as a whole. None of it shows what you claim as to the ratio of final spending between the sides.

Did you count on nobody clicking through, or nobody seeing the date lines of these articles?

Or, to be honest, did you think these DID prove what you were saying?

This is a tour de force in reducing your already diminished reputation to the height of an ant hill.

Either you don't understand what you're reading, or just blatantly lie about what it means?

Wow! Almost forgot, F=FAIL on this one as well.

</div></div>

He's a trainwreck of tangled logic and deceit. I admire your patience in unraveling things for us but quite frankly when i see that kind of "birdsnest of bullshit" i just cut the line. St.

Soflasnapper
08-13-2011, 01:01 PM
Good point.

He throws everything on the wall and hopes something will stick.

At least I didn't get the F-1 key graphic, where he has a macro that inserts 'I must defend dear leader'!

Stretch
08-13-2011, 01:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good point.

He throws everything on the wall and hopes something will stick.

At least I didn't get the F-1 key graphic, where he has a macro that inserts 'I must defend dear leader'! </div></div>

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif St.

LWW
08-13-2011, 02:54 PM
It is by now common knowledge that you will always defend dear leader.