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09-18-2002, 11:05 PM
This is addressed to the regular readership of this forum and those who love pool and billiards books; which works are the most memorable to you?

I have a curious pick for my first book, one that I read four or five times in the 1960s: "The Bank Shot and Other Great Robberies" by Minnesota Fats as told to Tom Fox. I know, it's filled with typical Fats braggadocio, bluster and outright blarney, but it was a lot of fun too. Because of Fox's writing, it captured an era for me, a young man of 16 at the time. It's also the first time I learned about a game called One-Pocket. A little anecdote to go along with the book. In 1970, Fats was traveling around giving exhibitions for some table manufacturer when he stopped in Denver. Naturally, he played many young children, which thrilled them, especially when he let them win. After the exhibition, almost everyone clamored for his autograph. Fats took out his ubiquitous stamp and ink-pad and began stamping whatever they threw in front of him, from scraps of paper to dollar bills. When I presented my book, a hardcover edition, he paused and said, "You shelled out cash for a hardback of my book. I'm going to sign yours." and he did.

My second book, the first one I genuinely learned something valuable from, was Mosconi's "Winning Pocket Billiards." I remember going over the pictures and text again and again, trying to emulate everything Mosconi did and said. I loved the photos with the paths of the balls illustrated in nice, bright tape, particularly the break shots in 14.1. Because I'm short, I took the basic stance from him and it has served me well to this day. In retrospect, I realize quite a few things were missing, like the vital concepts of drag draw and deflection, but it still remains a sentimental favorite of mine. In 1988 I had a chance to meet Willie and have him sign his book. I related the story of Fats and "Bank Shot ..." Willie's response was, "You should have handed him the book and told him to keep it." I think ol' Willie really did despise Fats. Oh, well.

I loved the small selection of trick shots in Willie's book too, particularly the massť made famous in the film "The Hustler." Admittedly, the book in no way taught me to execute this shot properly; that would have to wait for another writer and teacher, which brings me to my third author. About 15 years ago I ran into a book by a fellow named Robert Byrne. Everyone here knows the title of his first book: "Byrne's Standard Book of Pool and Billiards." I learned so much from this work, and its grace and wit made it a pleasure to read. Naturally, I went on to buy "Byrne's Treasury of Trick Shots in Pool and Billiards," "Byrne's Advanced Technique in Pool and Billiards," "Byrne's Book of Great Pool Stories," "McGoorty" and you name it if it had the Byrne name attached to it. Since I appreciate well thought out explanations and a gift for bringing them to the page, I never went wrong with his works. Men like Ray Martin, George Fels, Jack Koehler, Phil Capelle, Mike Shamos, Victor Stein and Paul Rubino, Eddie Robin and Bob Henning have contributed immensely to the game over the years, but Robert Byrne set the standard, so to speak, for top-notch writing and accurate illustrations. By the way, I can do that massť now for the amusement of non-pool playing friends.

Lastly, I must mention a book that deeply impressed me ... negatively, that is: Kanov and Stauch's "Precision Pool." It is so poorly written, edited and proofread that it is an embarrassment to instructional pool books. I've read small, self-published books that have fewer mistakes. I won't belabor the point, but if you want to find out precisely what is wrong with this work you can read my review on Amazon.com under the title, "Imprecise Pool."

All the best to you straight shooters out there ... and let me know what you find memorable. I'm curious.

Bob

Chris Cass
09-18-2002, 11:10 PM
Hi Bob,

You need to allow yourself to receive PM's.

C.C.

09-18-2002, 11:57 PM
Every pool player needs a copy of "Point The Way" by the Monk.

Misel
09-19-2002, 04:26 AM
Hi,
My sentimental prefferite is Willie,s Game,the autobiography of my idol Willie Mosconi.I loved to read the stories of Willie and Greenleaf and the intensity with which he played.Great book.

bluewolf
09-19-2002, 06:09 AM
Eva Lawrence book "billiards for dummies" and phil capelle's book 'play your best pool' are pretty good book,mostly for beginners.i like the pictures showing how the basics are supposed look.

for books to increase my skills i like '99 critical shots of pool' and expect to really like 'black belt billiards'once the mail brings it to me. on pins and needles daily. <G>

Laura

NH_Steve
09-19-2002, 06:56 AM
fightingbob, You've got pretty thorough coverage there! Back in the 70's when I was learning, I found Johnny Holiday's little books to be pretty helpful. My copies have sadly grown legs, so I can't go back & see what they look like now. Even though they would probably be considered poorly written by today's standards, there weren't too many books with advanced position diagrams back then.

However, my two current favorites would be Eddie Robin's One Pocket books, of course -- but they're recent! Among the older books, 99 Critical shots & McGorty stick in my mind.

BillPorter
09-19-2002, 07:17 AM
Bob,

If you haven't read "Billiards" by John Grissim, do yourself a favor and read it! It is a 1979 copywrite book that has become hard to find. The book contains some wonderful stories about some of pool's all-time greats, historical stuff and great photos. For what it's worth, Bill Stroud once told me that it was his all-time favorite pool book. By the way, I love the subtitle of the book: " Hustlers & Heroes, Legends & Lies and The Search for Higher Truth on the Green Felt."

Kato
09-19-2002, 07:38 AM
Bill, great book. I bought that book for Voodoo for Christmas last year (read it 3 times before I gave it to him). I also of course loved Playing Off The Rail, I've read it at least 5 times. Tony A is playing in the Open. I should bring my copy and see if I can get him to sign it.

Kato

Nostroke
09-19-2002, 07:41 AM
couldnt find that review at amazon.com-how about a link?

BillPorter
09-19-2002, 08:02 AM
Kato,

I applaud your ability to select Christmas presents! It was a perfect choice for a long-time pool person like Voodoo. I also enjoyed Playing Off the Rail, especially seeing the names of a few old players I haven't seen in years and years (like Alfie Taylor). Enjoy yourself at the Open, wish I were there.

AustinFilAm
09-19-2002, 08:03 AM
Hi Bob,
I too have a few collections of billiard books. My sentimental favorite would be the same as yours "Winning Pocket Billiards" by Mosconi. I found this old book at our local Half Price bookstore for just $2.85. What a find!!! The pictures of Willie alone makes this book worth its weight in gold.

Angelo

stickman
09-19-2002, 08:41 AM
Not that I have a large library, but the most interesting and helpful that I have read yet is "The Pleasures of Small Motions". I have some of Robert Byrne's books, and videos that are very good too.

Fred Agnir
09-19-2002, 08:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: fightingbob:</font><hr> ... and let me know what you find memorable. I'm curious. <hr></blockquote>

For stories, I really like:

Billiards, Hustlers and Heroes..., Grissim (out of print)
memorable part(s): the meeting of a young unknown Efren Reyes, and the one-pocket banter between Jersey Red and the great Gene Nagy.

McGoorty... (several different titles), Byrne
memorable part(s): Lem the Barber, and curing of an STD.

Great Pool Stories, Byrne
memorable story: The Hungarian Cinch. It's a close encounter of the hustling kind.

and for a local New England flavor:

The Wonderboys, Mike Mason - a story of pool when it was thriving in New England. Some of the people in the story are legendary players in my area that are still kicking around.

For instruction:

Winning One-Pocket, Eddie Robins
Shots, Moves, Strategies..., Eddie Robins

Fred

09-19-2002, 09:07 AM
and for a local New England flavor:

The Wonderboys, Mike Mason - a story of pool when it was thriving in New England. Some of the people in the story are legendary players in my area that are still kicking around.

Fred

Fred, you should check out my book DO IT FOR THE GAME. It has many of the Joss players. www.doitforthegame.com (http://www.doitforthegame.com)
Bob Campbell

09-19-2002, 10:15 AM
Nostroke,

Here's the link. I tested it and it works from within the post. Once you're at the "Precision Pool" page, you'll have to scroll down to read my review, or click "see all customer reviews ..." and it's the first one listed since they're in chronological order. It was posted September 5th.

Link: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0880118970/qid%3D1032450769/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/104-9485880-2102352

Bob

09-19-2002, 10:46 AM
Bill,

Thanks goes to you and Fred Agnir for recommending Grissim's book. It sounds like a great read. I did an informal search over the Internet and found it to be a rather expensive used hardback. It must me a good book, and a rare one too, for the prices used bookstores are asking. Unfortunately, my local library doesn't have a copy either, just "Playing Off the Rail," which is a pretty good read too. I guess I'll have to search for it through interlibrary loan.

Take care.

Bob

09-19-2002, 11:25 AM
Yes, Steve, you're right. Johnny Holiday's "Continuous Hi-Runs" is a good book on 14.1. The illustrations are nothing to write home about, but the text more than makes up for them. It has many choice insights and tidbits that make it a permanent part of my library.

In a similar vein are George Fels "Mastering Pool," "Advanced Pool," a recent updating of MP absent the chapter on One-Pocket and "How Would You Play This?" Fels, like Byrne, is a good, entertaining writer.

Naturally, Robin's One-Pocket books are classics. I'm lucky to have both of them. My only complaint is that the first edition of "Winning One-Pocket" has a large errata sheet. In converting the text from a PC to a MacIntosh just before publication many fractions were lost. There are several misspellings too. Unfortunately, the second edition was not offered to first edition buyers, even buyers of the leather bound edition, at a discount - I feel strongly it should have been - so I never purchased it.

Thanks for your reply, and keeping me on my toes.

Bob

09-19-2002, 11:53 AM
Misel,

"Willie's Game" is setting on my shelf, just begging to be read. It's next on my list.

I never saw Willie play in tournaments, for I was not around when he was in his prime. What I remember are the straight pool shoot-outs shown on Wide World of Sports in the 1960s and early 1970s. I have fond remembrances of watching Irving Crane, Luther Lassiter, Jimmy Caras and Steve Mizerak play. My favorite among the bunch, however, was Irving Crane. I like the way he carried himself and, as Mike Sigel recently pointed out in BD, the way he played position. I was fortunate to talk with him by phone a year or so before he passed away. He was a man of class, as was Willie.

Frankly, sometimes I wish I would have been born earlier in the 20th century so I could have watched all the greats play, particularly Ralph Greenleaf. Those were the days when pool had real clout, rivaling baseball for newspaper coverage, or so I've read.

Take care.

Bob

09-19-2002, 12:07 PM
Stickman,

I just got Fancher's "Pleasures of Small Motions," and it looks like a thorough coverage of the mental, and therefore vitally important, aspect of the game. I'll probably be including Mr. Fancher in my list of influential writers on the sport, but I'll have to read the book first and see.

Thanks for your reply.

Bob

09-19-2002, 12:21 PM
Hi Angelo,

Yeah, Willie looks great, doesn't he. And that classic stance. No chin cleft or pausing on the backstroke for him, if you know what I mean. A man of real class!

Thanks for your reply, and keep shootin' straight.

Bob

09-19-2002, 12:36 PM
Hi Chris,

Do you really think I should. I figure with the review I gave "Precision Pool," I open myself up to some personal hate mail. I have nothing against Mr. Kanov or Mrs. Stauch (I guess I should use Ms., but I'm an unreconstructed traditionalist), but someone had to say something about the lack of care taken in producing this book. I don't know who's at fault, but the end product really suffered.

So, do you still think I should receive personal messages anyway?

Thanks, and good hearing from you again. Take care.

Bob

Fred Agnir
09-19-2002, 12:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: doitforthegame:</font><hr>
Fred, you should check out my book DO IT FOR THE GAME. It has many of the Joss players. <a target="_blank" href=http://www.doitforthegame.com>www.doitforthegame.com</a>
Bob Campbell <hr></blockquote>
Been meaning to Bob. I just keep forgetting about it when I get home. Old age, don't ya know.

Fred

09-19-2002, 03:02 PM
Sounds like a good book, Robert. I'll add it to my next Amazon.com order, which should be very soon since I'm always buying DVDs of classic films.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Bob

09-19-2002, 04:45 PM
Dear Laura,

Being of Scandinavian descent myself, anything the charming Ewa does is okay by me. But seriously, I've heard very good things about this introductory book; however, I believe it's part of "The Complete Idiot's" series and not the "Dummies" series. The only thing I don't like about it is the title.

Frankly, I hate a book that begins with The Complete Idiot's this or that for Dummies. I think these publishers are trying to appeal to an individual's insecurity about learning anything new. But most beginners aren't idiots. These books should be titled the "Smart Person's Guide ..." or, better still, "The Wise Guy's Guide ..." because any beginner who knows they need a good "beginner's" book for the fundamentals is pretty wise.

Regarding Phil Capelle's excellent book, "Play Your Best Pool," I wouldn't consider it a beginner's book because it goes far beyond just the fundamentals, as I understand Ewa's book does. Mosconi's "Winning Pocket Billiards" is more a beginner's book because it stresses the fundamentals and doesn't go much further.

Martin's "The 99 Critical Shots in Pool" is a fine book, but as Bob Jewett recently pointed out in BD, it's not perfect. I'd like to see a second edition with better illustrations. That said, it was this book that taught me the importance of drag draw and how vital it is to master this shot, particularly if you like to shoot on fast tables that sometimes roll off.

Thanks for your reply, and keep on shootin'.

Bob

09-19-2002, 04:48 PM
Oops, the Anonymous was me. I guess I forgot to log in. Sorry about that.

Bob

Barbara
09-19-2002, 06:48 PM
Ditto, ditto, ditto!!

The Grissim book was awesome, I read it within two days, and that was re-reading the chapter of the one pocket game between Jersey Red and Gene Nagy twice!! I swear, Grissim had to have a tape recorder going to get all that banter.

Byrnes' book, what can I say? Awesome! The Hungarian Cinch was absolutely one of the best short stories in that collection. Every time I see those 1-P players betting a bunch of jellybeans, that story comes to mind.

I've got a couple of Johnny Holiday books that won't ever see the outside of my house anymore.

Just acquired the "Winning One Pocket" book by Eddie Robins. Still perusing that one and it will also never see the light of outside daylight.

Any of Robert Byrnes' instructional books are highly recommended. As also Phil Capelle's books.

And I also recommend "The Theory and Practice of Gamesmanship -or- The Art of Winning Games Without Actually Cheating" by Stephen Potter.

Barbara~~~has read only half of the books she owns... Hmmmm...

Barbara
09-19-2002, 07:32 PM
You read it three times, only THREE TIMES before you gave it up??

Are you sure that was all???

Hm Kato, you seem to need your own copy.

Barbara~~~remembers that first email to RJB on those two eBay auctions...

bell
09-19-2002, 07:33 PM
Yo, pool playing cognoscenti where are you? The totally best(IMHO) pool book of the decade, "Playing Off the Rail" by David McCumber.

Chris in NC
09-19-2002, 07:36 PM
I'm surprised no one yet has mentioned two of my favorites - The Hustler and The Color Of Money. The latter had absolutely no resemblance to the 1986 movie version. I also agree that Playing Off The Rail was a very captivating book. - Chris in NC

Barbara
09-19-2002, 07:46 PM
bell,

I always wanted to write to McCumber and ask for him to do a retake/rewrite on a couple paragraphs that would've never made a difference on the outcome of the game, but it did in a marriage of one of the road players he met up with.

Not that it would make a diff in the marriage outcome, but he should've had more discretion in his description of the situation.

I really didn't think it was a good read. Neither was Peter Rabbit's.

Barbara~~~not a McCumber fan at all...

Rod
09-19-2002, 08:44 PM
Bob, I have 5 books plus rule books and finding the value of a cue by Brad Simpson, I forgot the book name. Playing off the rail which I can really relate to because of the players I know. WIllie Mosconi on Pocket Billiards. Not the same book but like you I found this book to be of great value when I first started playing. Winning Pocket Billiards has more info. The last two are books by Eddie Robin. Winning One Pocket and the other Shots, Moves and Strategies. All four are excellent books actually. Mosconi didn't go into a lot of the fancy terms used today like drag draw etc, but those shots are in there to a degree. He just gave you all the tools and it was up to you to experiment, practice and execute. Fact is advanced players can still struggle with some of the shots and drills. I think the amusing part to me anyway is the new books get into so much detail. Thats ok I guess but people read so much into this stuff, their interpretation, they get confused. Oh I forgot I bought The Billiard Encyclopedia. I did have Hoppie on three cushion but someone must have liked it more than me.

Voodoo Daddy
09-19-2002, 09:01 PM
Billiards, Hustlers and Heroes..., Grissim (out of print)
memorable part(s): the meeting of a young unknown Efren Reyes, and the one-pocket banter between Jersey Red and the great Gene Nagy.


Grissim...yep, THIS is the book to read.

Playing of the Rail, McGoorty and the Byrnes series books are good reads as well. "99 Critical Shots" by Ray Martin and "High Runs" by Johnny Holliday {my friend Danny Christian wrote the preface for it} are the best for 14.1. Jack Kohlers One Pocket book is on my top 5 reads. Everyone see's it different...thats my veiw.

Tom_In_Cincy
09-19-2002, 09:02 PM
"Golf is not a game of Perfect" Great stories of many great golfers. and how they obtained excellence at their game

"The Inner game of Tennis" great book about how you mentally approach learning how to improve your chances of winning and playing well.

09-19-2002, 11:45 PM
Chris,

I'm ashamed to say I haven't read either of Walter Tevis's books. Naturally, in this visual age I've seen both films. "The Hustler" is a gritty character study and, in my opinion, a classic not only of the 1960s but of the entire Twentieth Century. It's not just a "pool movie," but a brutal examination of both personal character and the American Character, what winning means in this culture and what one will do to be the best. It's also about what it means to be a winner and a loser. Though I love the well photographed and edited pool sequences - the cinematography and art direction (the look of the movie) won the Academy Award - it's the acting, the dialogue and the story that make it a classic. One scene in particular sticks in my mind: the picnic in the park with Fast Eddie and Sarah Packard. After Eddie describes in his uneducated but nonetheless eloquent way what it means to shoot pool like "no one has shot pool before ..." Sarah says, "Eddie, your not a loser; you're a winner. Some men never get to feel that way about anything." Well, that's the real truth of it, isn't it? But it's the Bert Gordons, the kings sitting on his thrones at the end, who succeed in this culture, in any culture really. The artist? Well, he has to be content with his craft, his art. No matter how you look at it, it's one of the great films in America cinema.

"The Color of Money" was exceedingly shallow by comparison. I see it almost strictly as a "pool movie," and not a very good one. I mean, who the hell lets the cueball go banging into objects balls and driving back into cushions in that montage mishmosh that's a poor excuse for good editing. Thelma Schoonmaker should be ashamed. And the story? Well, it had its entertaining moments, like the scenes with Keith McCready, but overall it's a contrived, uninteresting mess. And I won't begin to talk about that preening ass of a pool player, Tom Cruise, and his stupid Ninja tricks. I'll tell you what was overheard at the Denver Open in 1986 or 87, right after the movie was a hit with the general public: "Look, he has a Tom Cruise runout." What that meant was the player had three easy stop shots to the 9-ball, the only difference being he wasn't twirling his cue like a pair of nunchucks. If you have ever seen the films "Raging Bull" and "Goodfellas," sophisticated, powerfully realized character studies, you'll realize "The Color of Money" is second-rate Scorsese. The book has to be better than this. Maybe I should pick it up and see, eh.

Thanks for your reply, and keep on shootin'.

Bob

P.S. I guess you can tell I'm a frustrated film critic at heart.

Misel
09-20-2002, 04:54 AM
BoB,
The book really inspired me because i felt like i was there.There are a lot of stories with Irving Crane who was the biggest rival of Mosconi in the 50s.I also was thinking how it would be if i would be born in the golden era of pool.Like my idol Willie said in an interview before he passed away"the excelence is missing today".I am sure that the game was played very differently back then,they were real gentlemans.I hope you,ll enjoy the book like i did.

All the best,
Misel

Mr Ingrate
09-20-2002, 12:03 PM
Bob,

I have read Dr. Fancher's book. In my opinion, it is best described as a tautology.

I enjoyed Bob Campbell's "Do it for the Game" while in the hospital. I also re-read "Playing off the Rail" which is one of my favorites.

If you can get by the poor writing and the lack of a good proof reader and editor "The Green Felt Jungle" is an interesting primer on the scummy side of pool.

Alfie
09-20-2002, 02:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Mr Ingrate:</font><hr> I have Dr. Fancher's book. In my opinion, it is best described as a tautology. <hr></blockquote>Would you elaborate, please?

09-20-2002, 04:27 PM
Alfie,

Tautology is a word commonly found in philosophical texts. What Mr. Ingrate means, I assume, is that the book is filled with repetitious statements that are logically true but practically meaningless. Take the statement: A wheel is round. Round doesn't tell you anything more about the word wheel because the definition of wheel already contains the concept of round. In other words, the book doesn't say anything more than we already know and is a waste of time. Frankly, I'm sorry to hear that; I was looking forward to reading it. But I've been able to take away something from every book I've read, no matter how bad, even "Precision Pool."

Bob

09-20-2002, 04:30 PM
Damn, I forgot to log in again. The explantion of tautology was from me, fightingbob. Sorry about that.

Bob

Mr Ingrate
09-20-2002, 08:30 PM
Alfie,

Merriam-Webster Online http://www.m-w.com/dictionary.htm defines it as follows:

1. needless repetition of an idea, statement, or word

There are others who found Dr. Bob's book the greatest thing since sliced bread. I feel that repeating a questionable point does not make it unquestionable. Just my opinion.

09-21-2002, 12:06 PM
Wow. That's quite a statement from someone who hasn't even read the book. You wouldn't happen to be Dr. Fancher in disguise, would you? LOL!

A fan.

Alfie
09-21-2002, 12:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Mr Ingrate:</font><hr> Merriam-Webster Online <a target="_blank" href=http://www.m-w.com/dictionary.htm>http://www.m-w.com/dictionary.htm</a> defines it as follows:

1. needless repetition of an idea, statement, or word

There are others who found Dr. Bob's book the greatest thing since sliced bread. I feel that repeating a questionable point does not make it unquestionable. Just my opinion. <hr></blockquote> How about a couple of fer instances as pertains to the book.

And you do not feel that Fancher proves his points for the most part?

bluewolf
09-21-2002, 01:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Alfie:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Mr Ingrate:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; I have Dr. Fancher's book. In my opinion, it is best described as a tautology. &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;Would you elaborate, please? <hr></blockquote>

yeah mr ingrate. you have a higher vocabulary than me. could you please tell us what the word means and how that meaning relates to the book?

thanks in advance

Laura

9 Ball Girl
09-21-2002, 01:30 PM
The word tautology, like Alfie posted, is a needless repetition of an idea, statement, or word. So, for example, a tautology would be something like "It's raining outside" or "Is it raining out?". In this case, the word outside is not needed because it is assumed that when it rains, it's outside.

Wendy~~someone correct me if I'm wrong /ccboard/images/icons/crazy.gif

bluewolf
09-21-2002, 01:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> Dear Laura,

Being of Scandinavian descent myself, anything the charming Ewa does is okay by me. But seriously, I've heard very good things about this introductory book; however, I believe it's part of "The Complete Idiot's" series and not the "Dummies" series. The only thing I don't like about it is the title.

Frankly, I hate a book that begins with The Complete Idiot's this or that for Dummies. I think these publishers are trying to appeal to an individual's insecurity about learning anything new. But most beginners aren't idiots. These books should be titled the "Smart Person's Guide ..." or, better still, "The Wise Guy's Guide ..." because any beginner who knows they need a good "beginner's" book for the fundamentals is pretty wise.

Regarding Phil Capelle's excellent book, "Play Your Best Pool," I wouldn't consider it a beginner's book because it goes far beyond just the fundamentals, as I understand Ewa's book does. Mosconi's "Winning Pocket Billiards" is more a beginner's book because it stresses the fundamentals and doesn't go much further.

Martin's "The 99 Critical Shots in Pool" is a fine book, but as Bob Jewett recently pointed out in BD, it's not perfect. I'd like to see a second edition with better illustrations. That said, it was this book that taught me the importance of drag draw and how vital it is to master this shot, particularly if you like to shoot on fast tables that sometimes roll off.

Thanks for your reply, and keep on shootin'.

Bob <hr></blockquote>

bob,

you are right on all accounts. ewa's book is in the idiots series. her book and phil capelle start out with basics like stroke stance etc, although they have some more advanced stuff too.i especially think ewas book is very good. how about this title "Learning Billiards -a few minutes to learn, a lifetime to master" i stole that from what they say about 'othello' tsk tsk

when i practice i love doing drills. i dont just like knocking balls in unless i am focussing on a particular skill with it. so i like crit shots and the berne video and scott's video because it gives me skills to practice.that has been pretty typical of me in other sports i was in too.although not an expert, and not taking karate anymore, i still do drills several times a week. i just like a sport better when i can work on improvement in certain skills as i get bored with just messing around.i guess i need goals.

i am so excited with this topic.you guys are such a fountain of knowlege. i wish i could read all of these books but after reading all the suggestions,here is the list i came up with (mentioned by more than one person)

black belt billiards-in the mail
do it for the game
point the way
billiards by grism and winning at one pocket both op so will have to do some scrambling to get those.
playing off the rail
robert byrne books

i have 3 capelle books but although i can tell they are very good, for some reason they dont rock my boat.i think phil is a little verbose for me even tho his diagrams are okay.and he seems kind of 'waffly'? probably wrong word...maybe too right brained? please dont get me wrong i still read his stuff cuz i see it is good but think what rocks your boat may be a personal thing and how a persons brain works.

thanks guys!!!!

Mr Ingrate
09-21-2002, 05:03 PM
Alfie,

My copy of Dr. Bob's book and other pool related tomes were included with the sale of my pool table when we moved from California to British Columbia. I no longer have it in my possession. In my previous post I meant to say "I have read Dr. Fancher's Book."

In any case, there was a great debate on this board some time ago. The author took part in the extremely spirited intercourse.

Now I'm kind of sorry I even posted regarding his book because I certainly don't want to dredge up those discussions again. I should have known I wasn't going to get away with being succinct.

Dr. Bob makes some good points in his book and some that cause you to say, "WHAT?"

He was vigorously questioned on this forum and defended his views mainly by saying that we, his questioners, were not qualified to judge what he was saying.

Needless to say he did not endear himself to some ccb members, myself included. I suspect that may have influenced my enjoyment of his publication.

Although his book had a modest number of pages, I felt it probably could have been published as a pamphlet. I feel repetition of a point can become boring regardless its validity. Again, just my opinion.

Sorry, I can't give you specifics. I urge you to read his book. If you feel I unfairly criticised the good doctor you have my apology. If you agree that the word "tautology" is an accurate and succinct description I'll reimburse you for the cost of the book. You can't lose and I would really like your opinion.

Mr Ingrate
09-21-2002, 05:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> The word tautology, like Alfie posted, is a needless repetition of an idea, statement, or word. So, for example, a tautology would be something like "It's raining outside" or "Is it raining out?". In this case, the word outside is not needed because it is assumed that when it rains, it's outside.

Wendy~~someone correct me if I'm wrong /ccboard/images/icons/crazy.gif <hr></blockquote>

Hi Wendy.

I would think your examples show redundancy. Saying "It's raining. There is precipitation. Showers are happening." Would be the kind of repetition to which I was infering with my use of the word "tautology".

Rod
09-21-2002, 07:52 PM
Dave,
I never took part in that discussion or if I did it may have been only a post. I had not read the book thus no real opinion. I do remember the good doctor got extremely frustrated and left. It's seems to me passing off his psychology of a game he knew little about didn't fly all that well. Now that you mention it I do remember you and he had several words. Ok I'll shut up now.

Mr Ingrate
09-21-2002, 08:14 PM
Hi Rod,

Your memory is pretty good, although I was one of the least voluable correspondents. A certain "good ol' boy", who shall remain nameless, had me ROFLMAO with his counterpoints.

Tom_In_Cincy
09-21-2002, 08:55 PM
Dr. Bob also wrote a few colunms for BD. One column stated that one of the major reasons we play is for STATUS.. his words (roughly translated) explained that we were looking to improve our place in the pecking order of who is the best player. I was amused by this coming from non-pool player that Dr. Bob admitted, although he did eventually take lessons. I wonder what he thinks about that status statement now?

Rod
09-21-2002, 10:20 PM
I remember that also Tom. He may still believe that although he would not even make a book of listings. Well maybe on his street is certainly possible.

bluewolf
09-22-2002, 06:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> Wow. That's quite a statement from someone who hasn't even read the book. You wouldn't happen to be Dr. Fancher in disguise, would you? LOL!

A fan. <hr></blockquote>

i think he was referring to the meaning of 'tautology'

bw

09-22-2002, 12:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Mr Ingrate:</font><hr> Hi Rod,

Your memory is pretty good, although I was one of the least voluable correspondents. A certain "good ol' boy", who shall remain nameless, had me ROFLMAO with his counterpoints. <hr></blockquote>

i remember dr.(?) bob as being very entertaining in kinda the same way it's entertaining to whack your little brother and watch him get all red and run around screaming whilst you study cloud formations.

he was, i recall, a failed new york city marriage counsellor who suddenly became "the only sports psychologist who knew a darn thing". somehow, he figured out that he could psychologize the balls into the holes. unfortunately, no-one told the balls. last i heard he was in austin where absolutely nobody on the pool scene has seen him.

actually, he was very warmly received here till he started getting nasty to us dumb pool shooters at which time he became "entertainment". then he left. for reasons that escape me still, the very highly respected g.fels gave him his own column at b.d. which was pretty unreadable and not at all entertaining.

dan...we have no status of which we are aware.

09-22-2002, 03:52 PM
Follow the yellow brick thread.

Follow the yellow brick thread.

Follow the follow the follow the follow the FOLLOW THE YELLOW BRICK THREAD!

You're off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of _____ (you fill in the blank).

THINK BEFORE YOU MEDDLE. BETTER YET, DON'T MEDDLE. (We know...you can't stop because meddling is what you do.)

Wally_in_Cincy
09-22-2002, 05:24 PM
Post deleted by Wally_in_Cincy

09-23-2002, 12:23 AM
The last half of my post was written rhetorically and with a certain irony, Anonymous, and not to be taken too literally. The last sentence was written to take another, and probably uncalled for swipe, at "Precision Pool."

After I read the "Pleasure of Small Motions," which I started this weekend, I plan to write a review on Amazon.com. So far, I'm not impressed. Figure 1 (pg. 2) and Figure 3 (pg. 36) conjure up two deadly P words I was afraid I might encounter after reading between the lines of previous posts: Pretentious and Pseudoscientific. Derivative comes to mind too, but I won't say of what yet; I need to read more.

Bob

09-23-2002, 12:38 AM
Dan,

I enjoyed your informative and humorous post. You make Bob Fancher, Ph.D., sound like the Dr. Joyce Brothers of pool. So far I'm not impressed with his book (read my reply to Anonymous), but I'm going to reserve judgment until I'm finished.

Thanks.

Bob

09-23-2002, 01:10 AM
I'm glad you like the post, Laura. I figured it would generate interesting questions and answers, like any good book or film does for that matter. I only regret that in my initial post I didn't ask those replying why they like the books they do. Of course, not everyone is introspective enough to answer that question; they just know they like it, which is fine. I'm just happy that many posters didn't limit themselves to instructional books, but like a wide variety of the sport's literature. Stories are alive and well!

Regards,
Bob

09-23-2002, 01:46 AM
Wally,

Is this the anti-intellectual and proud of it stance? Frankly, I don't like ivory tower academicians any more than you do; maybe less because the general public gets the impression that's what intellectuals are like.

It's disturbing to me that so much of American culture is filled with this anti-intellectual, anti-aesthetic attitude, as if to read a classic, watch a foreign film or listen to a symphony is too highfalutin. There are those who enjoy watching the film "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre" but wouldn't be caught dead reading Chaucer. The irony is that "Treasure" is based on Chaucer's "The Pardoner's Tale."

Now, I'm not saying you should do any of these things so you can posture, pipe hanging knowingly from your mouth, and act superior. I like to skewer people like that. Rather it's about enriching your life and understanding a bit more about the human condition.

Many of my friends can change a water pump in a '72 Cutlass, know who Chaucer is, and may have read a tale or two and learned something from them. You could call them working class intellectuals, but I'd just call them inquisitive and curious.

Bob

BillPorter
09-23-2002, 06:21 AM
Nice post, Bob! Not all pool players are anti-intellectuals, though I'll admit that pool rooms are not your best bet if you are looking for a conversation about Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle or eastern philosophy. Some of the contributors on this board are bright, curious and have had more than a smattering of higher education. There may even be a few college professors lurking about...though any with a degree in psychology would be well advised to maintain a low profile!

bluewolf
09-23-2002, 06:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi Bob,

You need to allow yourself to receive PM's.

C.C. <hr></blockquote>

lol i had to ask ww what pm meant.when i was a medical technologist, it stood for 'post mortems' rofl

Laura

Wally_in_Cincy
09-23-2002, 07:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: fightingbob:</font><hr> Wally,

Is this the anti-intellectual and proud of it stance? Frankly, I don't like ivory tower academicians any more than you do; maybe less because the general public gets the impression that's what intellectuals are like.

It's disturbing to me that so much of American culture is filled with this anti-intellectual, anti-aesthetic attitude, as if to read a classic, watch a foreign film or listen to a symphony is too highfalutin. There are those who enjoy watching the film "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre" but wouldn't be caught dead reading Chaucer. The irony is that "Treasure" is based on Chaucer's "The Pardoner's Tale."

Now, I'm not saying you should do any of these things so you can posture, pipe hanging knowingly from your mouth, and act superior. I like to skewer people like that. Rather it's about enriching your life and understanding a bit more about the human condition.

Many of my friends can change a water pump in a '72 Cutlass, know who Chaucer is, and may have read a tale or two and learned something from them. You could call them working class intellectuals, but I'd just call them inquisitive and curious.

Bob <hr></blockquote>


Lighten up. Sometimes I pretend to be a dumb hick but I'm really not. I admire folks who have finished college because it's something I never did. I listened to Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 20 and No. 25 at work Saturday. I read (past tense) enough classics in school to satisfy me. I like biographies when I can find time(Reagan, Andy Jackson, Lincoln, Henry Clay, Mozart, Jefferson, Washington etc.)
I've met academicians who were normal, I've met many who were not. I would rather play pool than read Chaucer.

Later

Fred Agnir
09-23-2002, 07:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: fightingbob:</font><hr> Stickman,

I just got Fancher's "Pleasures of Small Motions," and it looks like a thorough coverage of the mental, and therefore vitally important, aspect of the game. I'll probably be including Mr. Fancher in my list of influential writers on the sport, but I'll have to read the book first and see.

Thanks for your reply.<hr></blockquote>
I am the (self-proclaimed) champion against the "pool is mental" saying. I think it's bogus, misleading, and helps to add yet another excuse for piss poor playing ability. I also didn't like Fancher's condescending posts here with his "it's over your non-psychology heads" attitude coupled with the fact that he was a novice at pool.

That being said, there are wonderful nuggets of information and ideas in Pleasures of Small Motions that make the book worth the hassle of getting through his back-patting introduction. He does approach the "mental game" from a more physical point of view. *That*, in my opinion, is truly where the mental game stems, and not vice versa. You're only as good as your best physical game.

It's not a "pool is mental" book, and maybe that's where the disappointment lies from those who expected something along those lines. Since it agrees with my point of view, of course I'll like it :-)

Fred

09-23-2002, 07:59 AM
I just read your review on amazon, as a review of your review let me say. All I read was an attempt to impress the reader with what you think you know. Your review could have been condensed to a few lines. But instead you feel compelled to try to make a case why you are right and no one better disagree. You could have said something like, "Not very good and filled with technical mistakes. I would not recommend this book." Instead you go on for a page. Man, after reading some of the stuff you write here and after reading that review you are really full of your self. Are you this annoying in real life, or just when you write? By the way, Do you actually play? How would you judge your speed?

SPetty
09-23-2002, 08:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I am the (self-proclaimed) champion against the "pool is mental" saying.
&lt;snip&gt;
He does approach the "mental game" from a more physical point of view. *That*, in my opinion, is truly where the mental game stems, and not vice versa. You're only as good as your best physical game.

It's not a "pool is mental" book, and maybe that's where the disappointment lies from those who expected something along those lines. Since it agrees with my point of view, of course I'll like it :-)

Fred <hr></blockquote>Okay, Fred, I'm having just a smidge of difficulty reconciling your post here with your current signature tag line:

<font color=blue>Two things that undermine a good game: thinking too much and not thinking enough. </font color=blue>

The game is physical, not mental, yet variances in mental thinking undermine it. Hmmmm....

Fred Agnir
09-23-2002, 09:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fred Agnir:</font><hr>I am the (self-proclaimed) champion against the "pool is mental" saying.
&lt;snip&gt;
He does approach the "mental game" from a more physical point of view. *That*, in my opinion, is truly where the mental game stems, and not vice versa. You're only as good as your best physical game.

It's not a "pool is mental" book, and maybe that's where the disappointment lies from those who expected something along those lines. Since it agrees with my point of view, of course I'll like it :-)

Fred <hr></blockquote>Okay, Fred, I'm having just a smidge of difficulty reconciling your post here with your current signature tag line:

<font color=blue>Two things that undermine a good game: thinking too much and not thinking enough. </font color=blue>

The game is physical, not mental, yet variances in mental thinking undermine it. Hmmmm....
<hr></blockquote>

Odd that I see no contradiction. My objection has always been how people seem to think that pool is a mental game as if it were chess. They even say "pool is all in your head." Nonsense. It certainly has more mental challenge than playing kickball, but in the end, your pool game is defined by your physical ability, and all the mental capacity will not make you better. The mental game can bring one's game down, however (undermine). That's my point of view.

There are those that truly believe that the mental game is such magic voodoo that it can elevate one's game. I can't see how that's possible.

Fred

Tom_In_Cincy
09-23-2002, 09:42 AM
And some College Profs, play one pocket pretty good.. too,

Next time its a even game Bill, no more kidding around. You are just too good for me to give up any more weight...

Great finally getting to play you at a good game.. we'll have to do it again.. soon..

SPetty
09-23-2002, 11:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Odd that I see no contradiction. My objection has always been how people seem to think that pool is a mental game as if it were chess. They even say "pool is all in your head." Nonsense. It certainly has more mental challenge than playing kickball, but in the end, your pool game is defined by your physical ability, and all the mental capacity will not make you better. The mental game can bring one's game down, however (undermine). That's my point of view.

There are those that truly believe that the mental game is such magic voodoo that it can elevate one's game. I can't see how that's possible.<hr></blockquote>Don't get me wrong - I don't disagree with what you're saying. But, I want to see if I can see it as clearly as you do, and I don't ... yet.

So, do you think that everyone starts out with a perfect mental game, and all they can do from that point out is screw it up? What about the players who start out all screwed up - you don't think that changing their thinking or mental game can improve their game?

Again, I basically agree with you that pool is a physical game, but I also believe the mental plays into it for many players. I don't think I'm unusual that I can shoot very well when I'm alone with no one watching, but when people are watching, especially if there are expectations (either good or bad) of some sort, I don't play as well. Yes, I will make some physical errors, but I believe I make mental errors as well that I wouldn't make if I weren't being watched. And, I believe that some of those mental errors lead themselves to physical errors.

(BTW - I think that common phenomenon is all Bob meant by the word "status"...)

So, you may think that I undermine my game via that mental problem just described. However, maybe my *real* game is the bad one that is being undermined, while the practice game is an improvement over my *real* game by a change in mental thinking...

Again, though, I don't disagree with your basic premise. The better you can physically perform, the less the mental plays a role.

SPetty ~~~ kickball champion in a former life

Fred Agnir
09-23-2002, 02:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr> So, do you think that everyone starts out with a perfect mental game, and all they can do from that point out is screw it up? <hr></blockquote>
That'd be interesting way to look at it ;-) I more like to think that as novices, the mental game isn't a priority.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr> What about the players who start out all screwed up - you don't think that changing their thinking or mental game can improve their game? <hr></blockquote>
Without a change in their physical game, no I don't think so.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Again, I basically agree with you that pool is a physical game, but I also believe the mental plays into it for many players. <hr></blockquote>
Oh certainly. I definitely agree. I just disagree with the representation of the mental game as presented by most people.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>So, you may think that I undermine my game via that mental problem just described. However, maybe my *real* game is the bad one that is being undermined, while the practice game is an improvement over my *real* game by a change in mental thinking...<hr></blockquote>
I suppose it might be all which reference point you want to choose.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Again, though, I don't disagree with your basic premise. The better you can physically perform, the less the mental plays a role. <hr></blockquote>
It's not as cut and dry as I so harshly write it. Pool is a physically dominated game that has enough mental attributes that warrants the mental games study. It lies somewhere in the middle of chess and the 100 meter dash. I just get really miffed when the "it's all mental" saying gets so easily tossed around.

Fred &lt;~~~ not really miffed

SPetty
09-23-2002, 03:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I just get really miffed when the "it's all mental" saying gets so easily tossed around.<hr></blockquote>Thanks Fred. I appreciate the feedback.

You get miffed at this the same way I get miffed at the folks who so easily toss around "It's easy to pocket balls, it's the position that's difficult!"

09-23-2002, 07:29 PM
Yep, worse in person - a real schmuck.

On re-reading the review, I can see how it could be taken the wrong way. There are things I should have left out, like rewriting some of the authors passages in my own words. It does make me sound arrogant, but I'm really not. That said, I do feel I could edit this book and make it better.

Originally, I wrote the review as if it were to be published in a pool magazine rather than for readers of Amazon.com. This was a mistake. Another mistake was that I was a little upset when I wrote it. I spent good money on this book, and here are all these five star reviews, at least one by a writer from Pool and Billiard Magazine, convincing me to fork over the dough. I think that's a conflict of interest considering how poorly edited and proofread it is. I felt it was just another hustle from a sport where the hustle doesn't end on the playing field, so to speak.

So, the reason I wrote this review is so other people wouldn't fall into the trap I did. I presented accurate, detailed information in answer to all the five star generalities I read. This might get people to think twice about purchasing this book, and wait until a second, corrected edition comes out. Frankly, I don't think the material covered in the book is bad at all, but it's sloppily presented. Why should people have to pay for that?

There's no doubt I can be very opinionated, but I won't be the first or the last in this discussion group to have that trait. And, if trying to express myself in an articulate manner makes me "full of myself," then I plead guilty.

As far as playing pool, I learned the game when I was eight and I've been playing it off and on ever since. I'm 49 now. My speed? Probably not up to yours because I like playing for the beauty of the game - straight pool and one-pocket on 4-1/2 x 9s - and take more chances because of it. Since there aren't any straight pool tournaments in this area, it's hard to tell how I'd do under tournament conditions. I love One-Pocket, but I need to hone my skills there. This is as fair of an appraisal of my game as I can give. Still, one doesn't have to be the best pool player to be a student of the game or know a good book from a bad one.

Just one question, Anonymous, do you happen to be a friend of the authors or maybe one of the authors responsible for this book? Just curious.

Bob

09-23-2002, 07:37 PM
I screwed up. The last post was from me, but I assume you know that. I can't keep this thing logged in.

Bob

09-23-2002, 08:00 PM
I guess my sense of humor had gone south that evening, Wally. Sounds like you've read some good books. And don't feel bad; I didn't finish college either; I didn't have the mathematical talent to be the kind of physicist I wanted to be. However, I fell into cultural anthropology and folklore, which I really enjoy, even if I don't do it for a living. Frankly, I'd rather play pool than read Chaucer too, but with Twain or Hemingway it would be a toss-up.

Take care.

Bob

09-23-2002, 08:26 PM
Bill,

I do appreciate your pat on the back after being accused of being "full of myself" by an Anonymous poster. I agree with you about regular posters here at BD. I genuinely like what they have to say.

Interestingly, a friend of mine, a non-pool player, was very impressed with the folks at this discussion group and their effort to communicate and write well. He told me it dramatically contrasts with the open source computer people and their posts. I guess the computer folks feel they are too busy to care about their English and are actually disdainful of anyone who takes the time to try.

Thanks again, and take care, professor.

Bob

09-23-2002, 11:20 PM
No, I know nothing about the author and actually have not bought a book on pool in years. It was just a very strange review. What exactly is the beauty of the game? Is that to say you are above competing? You say you don't know how you would do under tournament conditions. Does that mean you have never competed? Don't tell me there is no one in the room where you play to match up with.

Rod
09-24-2002, 01:31 AM
Quote, So, you may think that I undermine my game via that mental problem just described. However, maybe my *real* game is the bad one that is being undermined, while the practice game is an improvement over my *real* game by a change in mental thinking..."

yes

Rod
09-24-2002, 02:10 AM
Quote Fred, It's not as cut and dry as I so harshly write it. Pool is a physically dominated game that has enough mental attributes that warrants the mental games study. It lies somewhere in the middle of chess and the 100 meter dash. I just get really miffed when the "it's all mental" saying gets so easily tossed around."

I can identify with that Fred. I"m slow at a 100 meter dash not to mention not a whiz at chess. It's in there somewhere. I get miffed how people find any number of crazy reasons they missed a shot. Whether they dreamed them up or misread a book or didn't see what they thought they saw on a tape. Oh yes there is the mental your miffed about too. Well some might be valid but I know many times people are looking in all the wrong places for an answer. The answer is in the basics, with the stroke being at the top of the list. I'm not picking on you SPetty, well maybe just a little. If I was allowed to miss some shots then position would be easy or not.

~~ rod not really miffed either

bluewolf
09-24-2002, 07:02 AM
I tend to agree with fred. I just had a major breakthrough on some mental things that were seriously hampering my game.Does that mean I will magically jump from a 2 to a 7? Of course not. No matter how much I work on overcoming my mental limitations, it still does not take the place of time on the table, practice and development of those skills. I do have some advanced mental pool concepts that I am not yet able to execute because I do not yet have the skills to do so. So I work on the basics and try to keep improving my ability to pocket balls, play simple position and safety. Don't know how long it will take me to get good, but guess it takes as long as it takes. I do have 'heart' drive, indomnnible spirit so am confident I will get there, just dont know how long it will take. Trying to be patient and look at each day as another day to work on skills,drills, and fundamentals.

bw

09-24-2002, 05:36 PM
The beauty of the game? I think that would be obvious. Pool is a game, a sport, and therefore requires two competitors, but it shares with chess the fact that it is also a science and an art. You only need to pick up Jack Koehler's "The Science of Pocket Billiards" or some physics book dedicated to the subject to see its scientific, analytical side. On the artistic side is what I would call, with apologies to Dr. Fancher, the pleasures of rolling spheres. It's the geometry, the aesthetics of the movements (best when everything is pulled off perfectly), but also the strategy and tactics that attract me to both pool and chess. For this reason I'd like to eventually take up 3-cushion billiards, possibly after I retire. Who knows, I may like it better than pool. I certainly like to watch it as well, except for the exceptional 150 and out straight pool runs of giants like Irving Crane and Mike Sigel.

Regarding my play, one problem I have when playing chess or shooting pool is perfectionism. Take 9-Ball, for example. Running a 9-Ball rack isn't good enough. It has to be run as I picture it beforehand, with the cueball on a string, or I'm not happy. Screwing up position on one shot often carries over to the next and sometimes snowballs into a bank on the 9. Though I've made the banks far more often than not, I can't forget the sloppiness of that rack and I think about it into the next one, which does me no good whatsoever. If I can get past that &amp;#8230; well &amp;#8230;

Tournaments? I have competed in chess tournaments but never a pool tournament, and that's a shortcoming. I plan to remedy that situation when I retire in two to three years. As I said, there are no straight pool tournaments in this area, but there are one-pocket tournaments. I'd like to get in a few 9-ball tournaments, too, but I'll have to improve my break greatly to be competitive at all.

Leagues? I'd love to be in one if there were some regulation table leagues in this area. They are all bar-box, and I don't care for either the atmosphere or the equipment. I'm not saying it doesn't take skill to play well on a 3-1/2 x 7 foot table, but it just doesn't interest me in the least. I guess it excites me about as much as 4-1/2 x 9 footers excited Willie Mosconi after playing on 5 x 10 tables most of his life.

Now, Anonymous, since I've told you a little about myself, my likes and dislikes, my strengths and weaknesses, why don't you come out from behind the curtain, let us know who you are, and tell the readers of this forum a little about yourself. It's only fair.

Bob

09-24-2002, 09:11 PM
I don't know, I always seem to look down a little on the players that over intellectualize the game into more then what is and can't really play. I never look down on a "player" regardless of their speed. The game is fun to play but it is not brain surgery. Name dropping obscure books or playing chess does not make one superior to someone else. In fact when I meet someone that has done a lot of odd ball reading or plays good chess, I figure they have been in jail for a while. Players play, they don't just talk about it. I could not imagine going to a tournament to sit and watch and not play. I think that is my only beef with guys like you, (assuming you are what I am perceiving you to be). Every poolroom has one. They just talk a good game. I had a similar conversation with a bunch of billiard players once. They had some idea they were better then pool players because they played a game they felt was in some way was an intellectual endeavor. It came up when I commented I thought one of their better players couldn't play. They asked if I played billiards and I said no not really. To make a long story short, I offered to play the guy. We player 30 point games for $300.00 a game. In three games he never got past 15. What they did not understand about my statement was, I did not mean he did not know the game, but he had very little cue skills. With my little bunch of shots that I make with high percentage I knew I could beat him even though I know little about the game. Not really, but you know what I mean. I won't pursue this any more I don't mean to offend or insult you. I can only say, you are not a player unless you compete, I don't care how well you practice. I have more respect for the guy that comes in last then for the critic in the stands. I think I am rambling here. You know 9-ball is a better game then you give it credit for. The looseness of the game is one of it's beauties. It calls for a kind of creativity. There is not a perfect way to run every rack. I have known world class straight pool players who played below par 9-ball because they wanted to control the balls to much. Sometimes you must change the balls and devise a new plan. The game lends itself to this kind of play. Straight pool also can be very forgiving. That is about enough, I am tired of typing. I just get amused sometimes when I read what some of the writers post here. That bunch heading to the US Open this week. I don't think any of them are playing or really care about seeing the play. They are excited about going out to dinner. Heck, when most of them get there, a lot of the players will already be out. If you break down their cost by the number of matches they will actually sweat, that is a lot per match. That dinner better be pretty good.

09-25-2002, 12:17 AM
You're not trying to insult me? Hell, what have you been doing since your first e-mail but insulting me when you've never met me nor understand how I think or feel. How do you know I can't play? Because I haven't been in tournaments? You say because I quote from books and movies and play chess that I'm probably a jailbird and think I'm superior. Neither one is true, but I'm glad you think so because it says more about you and your insecurities than it does about me.

By your own admission you haven't bought a pool book in years. I assume you haven't bought any book in years. Maybe you should; you just might learn something, but that would go against your anti-intellectual grain, wouldn't it?

From your story about the billiard players, I can tell with you it's all about winning with nothing left over for the game, but imagine what you could be if you really loved the game. Unfortunately, with your attitude you'll always remain second rate, in contrast to the top players - I mean the cream of the crop - who are students of the green baize.

Besides, anyone who remains behind the anonymous veil not only lacks class, they lack character. Adios.

bluewolf
09-25-2002, 06:52 AM
bob,

i have been insulted too but trying to ignore.i am capable of defending myself, but then it adds fuel to the fire.

the message i am getting is that many people want a break from the bantaring.that is why i have not been responding when someone insults me. yeah, and i have done my share in the past.just trying to do things a little differently.

you have some good ideas bob. in reflecting on insults,'consider the source' and dont 'throw pearls before swine'.

bw

09-25-2002, 08:42 AM
This is a different anonymous poster than the one you were exchanging posts with. Fightingbob, putting aside the fact that you feel insulted, you must know that it's true that historically, the cream of the crop that you refer to are the talent and not the intellectuals. They may have an intellectual on their team to help them address certain issues with their games, however, they are strictly talent. With pool, most of the cream of the crop go it alone because they can't afford to have intellectuals on their team, and they seem to do alright.

Even though you have called pool a sport in a previous post, I think I saw you do that, you seem to be speaking of it as if it were a game. As you know, the similarities to chess end at the point where the player must execute.

Your book reviews are all very cerebral and focus on verbiage, consistency and particular shots, but there is no mention or discussion from you on what it really takes to play pool, and that is execution, particularly under fire.

Whether you feel insulted or not, the anonymous poster makes some good points.

09-25-2002, 09:39 AM
I couldn't agree with you more, Anonymous. And yes, the other Anonymous made some good points; he just presented them in an insulting manner. In these times when incivility is the norm, I appreciate a post like yours and can't deny its truth.

No matter how much you know about the game, it's still about execution and, therefore, talent. I remember reading a comment made about Willie Mosconi and what made him so great. The writer - maybe it was George Fels - said it was his ability to execute under pressure. That's the key to it, all right. It's the "under pressure" part that's a problem for many a sportsman or sportswoman and game player, myself included. Let me tell you, it happens in chess too, particularly when you are in time trouble (tournament chess is played with a clock) and you have many moves to make before your flag falls.

Executing under pressure is where character really counts. Like Tom Ross recently pointed out in his BD column, the top competitor's attitude when faced with pressure is "bring it on." Most of us have to work at it.

Thanks, again.

All the best,
Bob

09-25-2002, 09:49 AM
Thanks for your words of wisdom, Laura. As I just posted, Anonymous made some good points, but he presented them in an insulting manner. No one should tolerate that. Though, as you said, it's best to ignore it ... and maybe learn something from it too.

All the best,
Bob

09-25-2002, 10:38 AM
You may be surprised what players may know. That guy you perceive as a dope, may just not spout off in order to impress people. He doesn't need to. His stories come from experience and not something he read in a book or saw in a movie. When he comments about a famous player, it is because he knows the player and has played them, not because he once saw them in an Accu-Stat video. Should he comment on a cuestick, it is because he has owned the cue and knew the cuemakers, whether it be a Balabushka, Szamboti, Southwest, or whatever. Not because he saw one in the Bluebook or once knew someone who owned one. I think my original dislike for your attitude was your attack on Meucci cues. Of course you are above them now you own a Joss West and could not waits to work the fact in into the conversation. You actually sent a registered letter to Bob to complain about his cues. Meucci cues are what they are, and if you don't like them don't buy one. If someone else likes them that is their business. You have done the same thing regarding different shafts. If you don't like one then everyone must agree with you. I doubt you really know anything about the construction of a cue or a shaft, but you have opinions, and the net has given you a forum to express them.

HOWARD
09-25-2002, 12:51 PM
FIGHTINGBOB, I HAVE READ BOTH OF MR. TEVIS' BOOKS - AND ON THE POSITIVE SIDE I WILL SAY THE FIRST FEW PAGES OF "THE HUSTLER" ARE VERY GOOD WITH BIG JOHN BANKING THE THREE BALL AND THE WORKERS GOING THROUGHT THE ROUTINE OF OPENING UP AMES POOL HALL. AND BIG JOHN'S LINE ABOUT FAST EDDIE: "HE PROBABLY SHOT EVERY NINE BALL SHOOTING FARMERS FROM HERE TO CALIFORNIA" WAS GREAT TOO. MR. TEVIS, I REMEMBER READING WAS VERY FIRM THAT HE CREATED MINNISOTA FATS. AS FAR AS I CAN TELL SOMEONE THAT WAS NAMED NEW YORK FATS TOOK ON A NEW IDENTITY. BUT THE REST OF "THE HUSTLER" AND "THE COLOR OF MONEY" I DID NOT ENJOY THAT MUCH. I AM NOT A CRITIC SO I WILL JUST SAY MR. TEVIS STYLE DID NOT SUIT ME. I WILL SAY THE SCREEN WRITER FOR "THE HUSTLER" DID A BRILLIANT JOB. AND THE SCREEN WRITER FOR THE COLOR OF MONEY DID A VERY GOOD JOB. - HOWARD

09-25-2002, 04:22 PM
I guess I hit a real nerve there with my Meucci posting. I can understand a cue warping, any cue from any maker, shaft or butt, but to not make good on defective merchandise, particularly if you happen to be a dealer carrying his cues, is reprehensible. Contrary to the e-mails, I have less of a problem with his cues than I do with the man, who through his actions has proven himself to be an unprincipled, unscrupulous business man. Hey, Enron. I have just the man for you.

Regarding cue-making, I've been in Dave Kikel's shop and watched him work. You could say I know a smattering here and there. I'd like to learn a lot more about the craft before I leave this world, if I can find the time.

bluewolf
09-25-2002, 06:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: fightingbob:</font><hr> I guess I hit a real nerve there with my Meucci posting. I can understand a cue warping, any cue from any maker, shaft or butt, but to not make good on defective merchandise, particularly if you happen to be a dealer carrying his cues, is reprehensible. Contrary to the e-mails, I have less of a problem with his cues than I do with the man, who through his actions has proven himself to be an unprincipled, unscrupulous business man. Hey, Enron. I have just the man for you.

Regarding cue-making, I've been in Dave Kikel's shop and watched him work. You could say I know a smattering here and there. I'd like to learn a lot more about the craft before I leave this world, if I can find the time. <hr></blockquote>

well we have sceptre cues. the guy was really good at making them.then he sold his business to people who dont do as good as a job. we got our's before the quality went down and still like them.

i dont know much about the different cues but heard the meuccis were pretty good. different 'strokes' for different folks.

bw

09-25-2002, 06:57 PM
unprincipled, unscrupulous, Pretty strong terms. Have you even met the man? I have known him for 35 years and he is anything but. I would say he is quite the opposite. First, this took place 14 years ago and based on that one dealing with the company you think you know everything about them. Then this seem to be a theme with all you knowledge. You learn a little and think you know a lot. You had the cue for a year and a half and it warped and you feel you got ripped off. From what you describe in regard to the joint, the wood under it had shrunk. This was probably the case with the shaft also, causing the problem with the ferrule. The cue was in a much dryer environment then when it was built. This kind of stuff happens to cues. It was more prevalent back then because cuemakers for what ever reason did not seal the wrap area before wrapping and most cues warped in the wrap area was common. I have a cue Billy Stroud built me years ago and it is crooked as hell in the butt. Nowadays cuemakers are sealing the cues completely. Billy I think was the first cuemaker using Nelsonite. Many cuemakers now use laminated dowels in the wrap area and a lot are coring cues to help prevent warping as well as other reasons. Cues are built better today then 14 years ago that includes the top cuemakers. They would for the most part not even think of building a cue the same way they did 14 years ago. My point is you made a very unfair indictment of a company and someone you know nothing about based on one incident from 14 years ago. I think you should get over it.

09-25-2002, 07:20 PM
Thanks, Howard, for your reply.

You're right about Minnesota Fats; he was New York Fats before the film. He claimed the character in the film was based upon him, but Tevis always denied it. No matter, really. Fats was a colorful character and seemed to be, at least when I saw him, a good person at heart. I guess accounts very as to how well he played the game. There were two things I'd say were questionable decisions on his part: to have his own TV series called "Celebrity Billiards" and appear in an abominable film called "The Players" or "The Pool Players," or something like that.

I remember seeing the "The Players" back in 1970 or 71, and couldn't believe how bad it was. With the exception of one, impressive force draw shot on an object ball behind the head string that curved the cueball in a wide arc to break the rack and continue the run, it had no entertainment value at all. I remember one scene where Fats looked directly into the camera and then down as he walked out of frame. I guess they couldn't find an editor.

The movie was so forgettable you can't find it listed at www.imdb.com (http://www.imdb.com) or www.allmovie.com. (http://www.allmovie.com.) I searched the web and couldn't find any mention of it, but I did find some great links if anyone is interested.

∑ Pool in literature and the fine arts
www.home.earthlink.net/~acetoscano/coolpool.html (http://www.home.earthlink.net/~acetoscano/coolpool.html)
∑ Old, classic videos I've never seen listed anywhere else, especially No. 4, 6 &amp; 9
http://www.bertkinister.com/classic_player_tapes.html
∑ An Epitaph for Boston Shorty
http://www.lib.rochester.edu/rbk/epitaph/17_1.stm
∑ And the complete screenplay for "The Hustler"
http://sfy.iv.ru/sfy.html?script=hustler1961

Great thing about the web, finding things you never knew existed. Still, nothing on "The Player." It's as if it disappeared off the face of the earth. Anyone remember it?

And "Celebrity Billiards"? What better picture can I give you than Fats playing ZaZa Gabor, who hardly knew one end of the cue from the other. I remember thinking, why the hell is he embarrassing himself like this. It gave Fats a chance to spout his entertaining blarney, often during the celebrity's shot, so I guess that's why.

"The Hustler," as you said, is a brilliant screenplay. I haven't read the book, but some say the movie is more profound, as I tried to describe in the posting you read. As far as "The Color of Money," it would have been much better without Tom Cruise playing the lead (I understand he's opening a hall called "The Twirling Cue" /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif) but I still think the story was rather shallow. I've never read the screenplay, so I don't know how much it deviated, if at all, from the movie. I just expect more from Scorsese since he is one of the better film directors around today.

All the best,
Bob

09-25-2002, 08:28 PM
Yes, I realize how wet Georgia can be and how dry Colorado gets, but that still doesn't explain why Bob didn't open my certified letter. In fact, you are assuming the worst about that letter, as if it were a screed against the man. It was nothing of the sort. It stated the facts, asked politely for him or someone in his company to look at the cue and possibly provide a replacement. The first letter was never answered. The second, similar to the first, but with a mention of the first not being responded to, came back unopened. Now, how would you feel? I think you'd be damned upset if that happened to you. Even a letter back from Bob or his secretary saying, "Sorry, that's not our policy," would have been the courteous thing to do. What do I get? Bupkis!

Now, the reason I brought it up here at the forum is that BD refused to print a letter to the editor years ago. Why? Because one of their advertisers was Meucci. I can appreciate that, but it didn't do anything to set the record straight as to what I saw as pretty shoddy treatment.

Now, you say Bob is not anything like I perceive him to be. If so, how do you explain this post: http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccbboard&amp;Number=32411&amp; Search=true&amp;Forum=ccbboard&amp;Words=pot-passer&amp;Match=Entire%20Phrase&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25 &amp;Old=3months&amp;Main=32407

Maybe I have been excessive in my condemnation, but how about this fellow carrying Bob's line of cues? Does he have a beef or doesn't he? How does this square with what you're claiming is "quite the opposite." Either way, I certainly got somebody to take notice. The letter was opened, this time. I remember what my anthropology professor said years ago, "... if you're foolish enough to forgive the wrongs done you." Well, I'll get over it, but I can't forgive it.

09-25-2002, 10:51 PM
No cuemaker replaces cues the owner has played with for a year and a half because it warped. The other story, I think the writer says it was when Meucci first started out, making the story like 30 years old. I doubt it is very accurate. It is probably more like the guy was a player that also hustled cues on the side that he carried around in the trunk of his car. I would also bet the guy had screwed Bob around in the past creating the problem. You need to know both sides of the story. You should take that story with a grain of salt. A third hand 30 year old story is not exactly evidence. I was a Meucci dealer for years and that just is not the case. There was a place where all repairs were done, I think the guy that ran the shops name was Mike something. Replacements and repairs were done quick with no problem. I never thought a lot of Meucci cues other then they were pretty good for the money. A lot of good players liked them though and still do. I don't mention the fact that I was a Meucci dealer to imply some kind of loyalty. I don't care one way or another. But as I said in another post, if I tell a story it comes from first hand experience and not friend once told me of a friend who had a friend. With all the competition out there Meucci would not even be in business if they operated as you say. Meucci also protected their dealers. I sold McDermott also and one time another room in town began selling McDermott's at dealer cost. They made nothing, they had a bar and were not really in the cue business so they figured the good will was worth it. Mean time I have $5000. worth of cues I can't give away. When I complained to McDermott they said it was not their policy to tell the dealer how to run their business. Meucci would have pulled the plug on the guy.

09-26-2002, 01:36 AM
First hand experience? What do you call my experience with Meucci, chopped chicken liver? I admit I can't vouch for the dealer's claim, but neither can you deny it happened just the way the post said. There are two sides to every story, no doubt about that, but making assumptions about the dealer selling cues out of the trunk of his car without knowing the first thing about him amounts to character assassination. I do know my own case firsthand, and I know I was treated shabbily.

You write that "Meucci would not even be in business if they operated as you say." Have you ever heard of marketing? They're good at that. And God ... or the Devil ... only knows why they have a mystique among some players. Some people like Edsels too (God, now I'll hear from the Edsel people).

You say you have no loyalty toward Bob Meucci, but you certainly defend him like a friend. If it's "my friend, right or wrong," how can we trust anything you write. If what you say about McDermott is true, then that doesn't speak too highly of them either. I heard a similar thing about Brunswick and their tables from a dealer in Colorado. However, dragging McDermott's name into it doesn't clear Meucci's name, does it? In fact, it looks like you'll invoke anything or anyone in contrast to Bob's actions so we'll think, "Bob ... well ... he's not so bad." Frankly, it sounds like they're all putzes.

I see you, and I believe others see you, as making excuses right and left for Bob Meucci. I admit I made a mistake on my book review, but not once, NOT ONCE, have I heard you say, "well, cue makers don't replace warped, 1-1/2 year old cues, but Meucci should have answered your letter. It was the courteous and right thing to do." No, you can't do that; it's just not in your nature to admit Bob blew it, or worse, didn't care. And you talk about me being "full of myself."

Your move!

bluewolf
09-26-2002, 06:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: fightingbob:</font><hr> First hand experience? What do you call my experience with Meucci, chopped chicken liver? I admit I can't vouch for the dealer's claim, but neither can you deny it happened just the way the post said. There are two sides to every story, no doubt about that, but making assumptions about the dealer selling cues out of the trunk of his car without knowing the first thing about him amounts to character assassination. I do know my own case firsthand, and I know I was treated shabbily.

You write that "Meucci would not even be in business if they operated as you say." Have you ever heard of marketing? They're good at that. And God ... or the Devil ... only knows why they have a mystique among some players. Some people like Edsels too (God, now I'll hear from the Edsel people).

You say you have no loyalty toward Bob Meucci, but you certainly defend him like a friend. If it's "my friend, right or wrong," how can we trust anything you write. If what you say about McDermott is true, then that doesn't speak too highly of them either. I heard a similar thing about Brunswick and their tables from a dealer in Colorado. However, dragging McDermott's name into it doesn't clear Meucci's name, does it? In fact, it looks like you'll invoke anything or anyone in contrast to Bob's actions so we'll think, "Bob ... well ... he's not so bad." Frankly, it sounds like they're all putzes.

I see you, and I believe others see you, as making excuses right and left for Bob Meucci. I admit I made a mistake on my book review, but not once, NOT ONCE, have I heard you say, "well, cue makers don't replace warped, 1-1/2 year old cues, but Meucci should have answered your letter. It was the courteous and right thing to do." No, you can't do that; it's just not in your nature to admit Bob blew it, or worse, didn't care. And you talk about me being "full of myself."

Your move! <hr></blockquote>

Nobody's perfect &lt;VBG&gt;

bw

Chris Cass
09-26-2002, 08:09 AM
Yes Bob,

It ends the clutter when wanting to tell someone off the cuff, something. Don't think you'll have any dissagreements on your assessment(sp) on the book. It's your opinion and you have every right to speak it.

Regards,

C.C.

09-26-2002, 09:16 AM
This board has a great number of readers and posters. Most don't seem to have a problem voicing an opinion. Meucci cues are so widely used if your problem was common place they would chime in. I am suer some are following this back and forth between us. About your the guy selling cues from his car. Your friend said "He didn't own a store just was considered a dealer from Meucci because he bought and sold so many." He was in fact hustling cues. These guys are around poolrooms all the time. They make deals in the parking lot to avoid a conflict with a room owner who sell cues themselves. I think the story speaks for it's self. As for your experience, I have no doubt it happened just as you said. There was a time that Bob was messing around with race horses and was a little burnt out by the business. For a time he tried to have the business run almost as an absent owner business. If you ask anyone that was working for him at that time they will tell you it got very chaotic. There is nothing wrong with trying to do this, it is done all the time. But letting the company be run by employees, even good ones, is risky. You can end up trying to put out a lot of fires. No one runs your company as well as you can, (in most cases anyway). It may have occurred during that time. I am not giving a free pass to Bob Meucci but your indictment of him and in the personal terms you choose to use are out of line. My guess is he never know you or your problem even existed. That is not to excuse him because he owns the company but it is all I can think of to explain you problem. I can only tell you what I know of the man. You could now walk up to him now, and tell him your 14 year old story and he would be interested. He loves to talk cues, they are not just a product to him. He is passionate about them which you would see if you met him. Lets just say, what happened to you was unfortunate and should not have happened. How and why it happened we can only speculate. But I don't think that is going to help the hate you harbor over your warped cue. I think I have run out of words on the subject.

09-27-2002, 03:19 AM
After reading your last post, Anonymous, I'll accept that you understand the way I feel. And from reading your quote, the dealer could indeed have been selling cues out the back door, so to speak, so I also accept that. But, what I can't accept is the all too common practice nowadays of making excuses not only for ourselves but for others, a situation that has added laws to the books, made a travesty of the court system, and trivialized the genuine rule of law in this country. Where did personal responsibility go?

I've tried to live my life in contrast to this attitude, so it's most difficult for me to accept Meucci Originals' apparent irresponsibility. I realize it may not have been Bob Meucci who was personally involved in the rejection of my letter, but the president is the ethical backbone and leader, or lack thereof, of his company. I also realize that Meucci cues may not have always been this way, but changed due to Bob's temporary neglect that lowered morale to the point where things went to hell. I understand this; I've seen it where I work. But this is all the more reason that with the president of a company "the buck stops here" ... well ... unless you're Enron or WorldCom, then "the buck never got here." /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

That said, I know no one is perfect, including me for the merciless and cynically humorous attacks upon Bob Meucci and his cues, so I'll move on. However, do me a favor sometime; bring this up with Bob, tell him what happened 14 years ago or thereabouts, and how the company's neglect led to one, angry customer. It's a lesson all companies can learn if they care at all to be respected.

I don't know if you're interested or have already seen this, but as a matter of good faith and a way of burying the hatchet, here is a billiard link I came across the other day that has a tremendous variety of other billiard links to its credit.

http://home.earthlink.net/~acetoscano/coolpool.html

I hope you enjoy it.

Bob

HOWARD
09-27-2002, 12:10 PM
FIGHTINGBOB, I DID SEE SOMETHING MANY YEARS AGO, MINN. FATS VERSE WILLIE MASCONI- PLAYING EIGHT BALL, NINE BALL STRAIGHT POOL AND MAYBE SOMETHING ELSE - BUT NOT ONE POCKET. AFTER THE FIRST DAY - MASCONI WAS KICKING ALL OVER THE TABLE. FATS SHOWED UP THE SECOND DAY WITH A ROLL OF MONEY THAT WOULD CHOKE A HUNGARY BEAR AND PULL IT OUT AND WAS WAVING IT AT MASCONI FOR A GAME OF ONE POCKET. MASCONI REPLY WAS LETS PLAY SOME STRAIGHT POOL FOR 100 GRAND. I BELIEVE CHRIS SCHENKEL WAS THE MC - AND DID NOT KNOW ONE END OF A POOL TALBE FROM THE BUTT OF CUE. ALL I CAN REMEMBER ABOUT FATS SHOOTING WAS A LOT STICK PAST THE BRIDGE. - WE HAD OLD TIMER HERE IN SAN FRANCISCO NICK NAME TUG BOAT, WHO PLAY WELL ENOUGH TO HAVE BEEN A SHORTSTOP AT ONE TIME, THAT THEORIZED YOU DID NOT NEED MORE THAN FOUR INCHES OF CUE PAST THE BRIDGE. - BEST REGARDS, HOWARD

Fred Agnir
09-27-2002, 12:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: HOWARD:</font><hr> - BEST REGARDS, HOWARD <hr></blockquote>
Howard,

Please unlock the caps lock.

Fred

Mr Ingrate
09-27-2002, 12:59 PM
One Pocket Fans,

Check out my Book Chain post.

09-27-2002, 06:56 PM
Yeah, I think that was on Wide World of Sports or something back in the late 1970s, I think 1978. My Father watched it and told me about it, so I tuned in for the end when Fats was going on and on, bemoaning his bad luck and how he'd beat Willie if real money was at stake. I guess Willie busted him up pretty good.

It was either in a player profile by Fels or a BD article by Stanley Cohen, the author of the then soon to be published "Willie's Game," that there was an anecdote about Fats being tapped out by Willie at one-pocket. Fats called a backer for more money, telling him that Mosconi "didn't know how to play the game; he's running 8s." Funny story, if true.

By the way, I went out to www.imdb.com (http://www.imdb.com) to see if it mentioned anything about Willie and Fat's encounter on Wide World. It only had "Celebrity Billiards (1967)" listed. If you click on CB, it has one side-splitting recommendation down at the bottom of the page: "If you like this title, we also recommend ... Night of the Living Dead." Yeah, I can second that.

All the best,
Bob

PQQLK9
09-27-2002, 07:52 PM
I purchased a trivia tape from Willie Joplin 434-384-8525 that contains 160 minutes of old movies and video clips....one segment is a six ball match (complete race to five) between Fats and Willie Mosconi in Atlantic City (circa 1985) thats narrated by John Madden and Allen Hopkins...VERY entertaining. Willie Joplin sells this tape as well as his One Pocket and Trick Shot tapes...I recommend them.

09-28-2002, 04:07 AM
Thanks, Nick. I love recommendations like this. I have Jopling's "Ultimate Trick Shot Tape," but now it looks like I'll have to add two more tapes to my collection. Where am I going to find the room? Accu-stats better go to DVDs soon so I can free up some space. /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif

Bob

bluewolf
09-28-2002, 07:15 AM
Before mr ingrates comment on dr fancher's 'pleasures of small motions' i had generated a list of books to read from others comments and ordered it.

i just got black belt billiards by socrates in the mail yesterday...yeah.

a few days before, i had received 'pleasures of small motions'
both ww and i have started reading it and like what we have read so far.with our current financial sit,we can only get one new book a month.

anyway, will let you know what we think of 'pleasures of small motions'once we finish it. i do think in the beginning of the book,he comes across as somewhat arrogant,which doesnt bother me but might bother some folks. also the fact that he was a league player and maybe not a pro with wins behind him,some may have problems with that. i have the attitude, i can learn from anyone,take what i need and throw away the rest, but will post a review once we have read it, probably under another topic.

socrates book has lots of drills progressing from easy to difficult so am looking forward to starting that today.

bw

bluewolf
09-28-2002, 07:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Mr Ingrate:</font><hr> One Pocket Fans,

Check out my Book Chain post. <hr></blockquote>

whitewolf really wants the book 'winning at one pocket' but we dont want to do the chain letter thing. if anyone gets a lead on a copy, please write one of us pvt.

bw

09-28-2002, 11:11 PM
I respect your attitude, Laura. Always keep an open mind. But as I learned from the brightest, most profound people I've met, listen and read critically, using your common sense to separate the wheat from the chaff. Do that and your far ahead of the game, so to speak.

All the best,
Bob

bluewolf
09-29-2002, 08:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: fightingbob:</font><hr> I respect your attitude, Laura. Always keep an open mind. But as I learned from the brightest, most profound people I've met, listen and read critically, using your common sense to separate the wheat from the chaff. Do that and your far ahead of the game, so to speak.

All the best,
Bob <hr></blockquote>

thanks.i went to amazon.com to put the books i want in my wish list.there was one i was considering,cant remember name, but i read your review and dedided i did not want that book.somepeople have no sense and think everything is good,taking all the author says 'hook line and sinker'.that book had two glowind recs, then yours. when i read yours especially the parts with the diagrams and texts contradicting each other, i really questioned whether it was a good book at all.

wanted a book on the mental aspects.i know it is a physical game. but i play bad tapes in my head at league and have this confidence problem. i can play a 4-5 if i dont know their number in apa and it is a tough match.it comes down to the last two balls almost always. i make some great shots,play decent position and good safety play.even though so far,they have beaten me, i played an excellent game .but when i go to league i have these bad tapes, they are a 4, i am supposed to lose or something like that,so i lose and stay a 2.it is not on purpose, i am not sandbagging,i just think my mind problems are keeping me from playing as well as i can,whatever that might be.that is why i got fanchers book, hoping it will help some.

Laura

09-29-2002, 08:28 AM
You may be making a little too much of that book, It is not really that good. It is nicely done and does have a lot of nice pictures of players and captions. But if you know one pocket, you can pick apart the instructional material. Two-thirds of the material is telling you what not to do. In other words, he gives you examples of several things to do on a given shot. and then shows what in his opinion is right choice. I just felt it was a beginners book in a fancy package. I guess people get excited over it because it was the only think out there. If you did find a copy it may cast you $100. or more and unless you are a collector or something not worth it. You are not going to really learn much from the book, it is just nicely done and fools you into thinking it is much more then it is. I have been wanting to say this for some time, when I read the raves about the book. I would be curious what any of the excited readers could point to specifically they learned from this book? If you know absolutely nothing about one pocket, then yes, you will learn a little to get started. I will say this also, you will lose a lot of games trying some of the stuff he has in there. A lot of it is just plain silly. Amazingly enough, I got $91.00 for my copy on ebay a couple of years ago. I could not believe it.

09-29-2002, 08:49 AM
I don't think reading books on the mental side of the game will help, if you don't play well. Confidence comes from past positive experience. Knowing what you can do, and knowing you know what you can do. Then you won't get beat by players you know you can beat. This comes from practice and playing. Pool is an acquired skill and takes time. You could have someone lecture you about everything there is to know about the game and when you went to the table you would not be one percent a better player. When you have played many thousands of games and pocketed tens of thousands of balls you will find yourself becoming a better player. There is no secret out there that is being kept from you, that only top players know and are hiding. No magic aiming system, or cue, just a table, balls and time. Try to developed a proper set of fundamentals and then practice.

09-29-2002, 02:11 PM
To Laura and Anonymous:

I agree with most everything you say here, Anonymous, but there are people who want to win so badly that they freeze and can't let all those years of work pay off. Some even get the shakes, which I believe has the technical name "purpose tremor." There's no doubt past successes build confidence, but if you've also choked in the clutch then you remember that too, which gets in the way of letting your body do what it has been trained to do.

There is one book, a non-pool book, that has been around since the 1960s that as far as I'm concerned is better than anything I've read up to now on the mental aspects of competition and self esteem written exclusively with pool in mind . It's called "Psycho-Cybernetics" by Maxwell Maltz ( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671700758/qid=1033327880/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-9638687-3115909 ). It's one of the original "self-help" books, before self-help became a rather perverse, self-perpetuating industry.

It has been years since I read it, but I believe Dr. Maltz's basic contention is that the subconscious does the real work, and that willing something to happen just gets in the way of actual progress, particularly in the physical realm. If there is any book that applies here and has survived the test of time, it is this one.

All the best,
Bob

bluewolf
09-29-2002, 02:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> I don't think reading books on the mental side of the game will help, if you don't play well. Confidence comes from past positive experience. Knowing what you can do, and knowing you know what you can do. Then you won't get beat by players you know you can beat. This comes from practice and playing. Pool is an acquired skill and takes time. You could have someone lecture you about everything there is to know about the game and when you went to the table you would not be one percent a better player. When you have played many thousands of games and pocketed tens of thousands of balls you will find yourself becoming a better player. There is no secret out there that is being kept from you, that only top players know and are hiding. No magic aiming system, or cue, just a table, balls and time. Try to developed a proper set of fundamentals and then practice. <hr></blockquote>

i agree with most of what you say. i dont believe anything can take the place of time on the table. i also took a lesson from scott to help me have better fundamentals.the problem is that shots i have a high percentage of getting i miss in a match.it is that negative self talk,nervousness and difficulty with focus.it is not llike i am going to get good overnight,but i would like to at least play at my skill level in a match instead of getting all nervous and missing the easy shots i make all the time.

bw

09-29-2002, 04:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bluewolf:</font><hr> i would like to at least play at my skill level in a match instead of getting all nervous and missing the easy shots i make all the time.<hr></blockquote>As an APA-2 there are very few shots that you can make all the time. You appear to be suffering from a common delusion amongst beginner players wherein they analyse their own game at a much higher level than their actual skills warrant. Your motivation and tenacity are admirable, however, and will serve you well if you reconcile your expectations and set more realistic goals. Slim (clo)

09-29-2002, 04:54 PM
I met Mr. Maltz and went to one of the rare lectures he did. The father of a friend was the captain of a sailboat owned by one of the richest men in the world. I got a tour of the boat and in the owners cabin was that book next to the bed. I have read the book many times. You may also want to get the book "Advanced Psycho Cybernetics and Psychofeedback" It is a follow up book by Paul G. Thomas. I am not a big believer in self help book with a few exceptions. I believe in a positive attitude but the problem is, many times players with a negative attitude have good reason to feel like that. They don't know what they are doing and no amount of positive thinking will help. A player that practices well but folds in competition has not developed that part of their game yet. You may play in a dozen tournaments and go 2 and out. At a point it will just go away and you will be able to perform. What makes a player not perform up to their real level is a fear of failure. They worry about not playing well and it poisons their game. But you know what? It just goes away. The key is to keep playing. A player that think they can't compete till they play better has it backwards. Competing is what makes a player. Draw someone like Varner in a tournament and have him end up beating you 11 to 7. You come away with a great feeling. He did not beat you 11 to 0, you played your speed and made a good showing for yourself. No book can give you that kind real positive feedback. I know I am rambling here but I can't make the point strong enough. There is a difference between really wanting to be a good player and doing what it takes and just wishful thinking. They are mostly of the book buyers. Let me add something else. Everything you do usually cost a little money. I have a boat that cost me $300.00 a month to dock and at least a $100.00 every time I take it out. If you play golf it cost money. I see players spend time and money practicing and yet won't pay a $50.00 entry fee to play in a tournament. They are cheating themselves out of the best part of the sport, competing. Is it the money, fear, I don't know, but you see them at every tournament sitting in the stands. It is a lot more fun to take part, then just being a watcher. You can say I played Strickland and not just seen him play once. I sometimes wonder why some of these guys bother practicing.

cheesemouse
09-29-2002, 08:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>I see players spend time and money practicing and yet won't pay a $50.00 entry fee to play in a tournament. They are cheating themselves out of the best part of the sport, competing. Is it the money, fear, I don't know, but you see them at every tournament sitting in the stands. It is a lot more fun to take part, then just being a watcher. You can say I played Strickland and not just seen him play once. I sometimes wonder why some of these guys bother practicing. <hr></blockquote>

Here Here~~~~~~practice is essential for your games improvement but if you don't put your game out there and compete your just kidding yourself and missing out on the object of it all~~~~winning....

09-29-2002, 11:17 PM
Do I recognize the voice of my old friend of the Meucci posts?

It may surprise you, but I happen to agree. While in high school I remember reading Irwin Shaw's short story, "The Eighty-Yard Run." In it Christian Darling recalls the pinnacle of his youth, a memory he treasures because his life had been all downhill from there, an eighty-yard run for a touchdown. Unfortunately, and quite tragically, it had only been a practice run. No one wants their life to be the subject of tragedy, so compete and be proud of what you have accomplished.

That said, you just couldn't avoid taking a swipe at "book buyers," as if they're all Christian Darlings. Maybe it's time to distinguish between "book buyers" and "book readers," those who actually learn something from what they read and are capable of applying it. When Eric Hoffer, the author of "The True Believer," was still alive, he used to relate an anecdote about an old black man, a man who worked many years as a janitor in a college and was now retiring. The man was very well liked by the professors, whose offices he cleaned, so they got together and threw him a party. Naturally, he received the traditional gold watch followed by a speech given by a particularly pompous professor in which he said, "I imagine you feel quite honored to have been around so many learned men all these years ..." When it was the old man's turn to speak, he stood up and graciously thanked all the professors in attendance for their years of friendship and ended by saying "I've met many learned men over my 35 years, but very few learning ones." Some book readers are learning men and women who know that experience without understanding is equally as vacuous as understanding without experience.

Will you agree with this? I don't know, but I think it's rather evident. Of course, there has only been one grudging nod in my direction, so I would rather doubt it. I think the word is ego. Probably the same thing that makes you such a natural competitor.

bluewolf
09-30-2002, 07:22 AM
thanks for the pvt and insight, friend

bw

09-30-2002, 08:51 AM
I think my meaning was that books may point the way and have very good advice if one put it into action. Successful people got there by doing. We all know the guy, that whenever he is in your place business loves to say, 'You know what you should," or "You know what I would do if I was you"? The funny thing is, they usually have good ideas and you look at them with a sort of curiosity because they them selves are often not successful, depending how you define success. In the case of the person on here that is ordering one book after another thinking there is a secret out there if they could only discover it, and so on. They should know there is not, other then hard work. Your reference to me as an egotistical competitor is not accurate. I am more a doer then a competitor. It is the case with everything in my life and rings true with my hobby of pool as well. I practice and play for several reason. One, it a lot of fun and interesting. Second, I like to test myself in real situations. Not competing, reminds me of many artistes who never show their work for fear of rejection. Pool by the way is harmless. You can't be hurt or killed such as if your hobby was skydiving or auto racing. People are welcome to do whatever they wish, but they are cheating themselves of the best part. You know, I in no way had you in mind when I wrote that. It is just what I believe and will often replete.

09-30-2002, 11:40 AM
Yes, I have to agree with you there. If you buy books and think that through some incantation their lessons will magically osmosis and turn you into a great player or, more importantly, a great person, then I've got news for you. You have to practice, play, and fear no one, which is easier said then done, but you have to do it.

That said, I'm not exaggerating when I say that one book changed my view of the world, a very personal work written by my late cultural anthropology professor. But it wasn't just the book, it was the man behind the book, a rough and tumble SOB who bowed to no man or woman in his controversial opinions. I learned a lot from that man - from my father and mother, too - but without his character showing through, the book would have been just dead, lifeless paper. Unfortunately, 90 percent of what's written is just that, dead.

I'm glad we could come to some kind of meeting of minds.

Bob

09-30-2002, 01:33 PM
Quote: "Some book readers are learning men and women who know that experience without understanding is equally as vacuous as understanding without experience."

I guess the implication here is that you're one of the "some" who've already learned that. Of course you are.

That comment you made matched Fancher's words, verbatum, here on the CCB a year ago.

What a coincidence.

smfsrca
09-30-2002, 02:24 PM
This is one long thread!
As with many very long threads it tends to degenerate into a pissing contest.
That comment aside, here are my most memorable:

For fundamentals I have never seen a single book as detailed and as accurate as "The Complete Snooker" by Joe Davis. I didn't see this one mentioned anywhere in this thread. It is out of print and difficult to find. I found it from a Canadian Bookseller for $20.00.
Joe Davis is now deceased but was undefeated champion for almost 20 years. He is often mentioned by snooker experts as best ever. His book certainly is the best I have ever seen describing fundamentals. This is an important book! Afterall, the truth of your game lies in the details of your fundamentals. Most pool books I have seen give only vague descriptions of fundamentals (soft grip, balanced stance, closed bridge) with no real details as the how these characteristics are actually accomplished or why one may be preferred to another.
Get Steve Davis' book now and you will never refer back to another regarding your fundamentals.

Other books I found of interest are:
"Willie's Game" if you want to read anecotes from the master himself.

Koehler's "The Science of Pocket Billiards" if your interested in the mechanics of billiard ball action/reaction.

Shamos' and Bennet's coffee table photo essay "Shooting Pool". I like this one particularly because I am in it.

For the psychology of playing and competing take your pick. What ever it takes to inspire you or give some personal insight. I personally like "The Zen of Archery". Ultimately, no matter what you read, you will develop toughness under competition only by developing strong fundamentals and competing.

Fred Agnir
09-30-2002, 02:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: smfsrca:</font><hr> Steve Davis is now deceased but was undefeated champion for almost 20 years. <hr></blockquote>
You mean legendary Joe Davis. Steve Davis is alive and kicking.

Fred

bluewolf
09-30-2002, 04:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: bluewolf:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; i would like to at least play at my skill level in a match instead of getting all nervous and missing the easy shots i make all the time.&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;As an APA-2 there are very few shots that you can make all the time. You appear to be suffering from a common delusion amongst beginner players wherein they analyse their own game at a much higher level than their actual skills warrant. Your motivation and tenacity are admirable, however, and will serve you well if you reconcile your expectations and set more realistic goals. Slim (clo) <hr></blockquote>

there are some shots i have an 80% success on.some are 30-50% others i rarely make and when i make them call it luck.no i am not delusional. if i make a shot all or nearly all the time in practice,then get so nervous in a game, i even miss things whcih are totally simple,that is what i am talking about. and i have beaten 3s and low 4s before when it was not a match but both of us were trying.

well anyway, i think the pressure i was putting on myself caused me to play bad in a match.it doesnt matter if i win or not but dont like playing cruddier than i really am.

btw, i have seen some other people ranked 2 who actually made a lot of balls and even more 3s.

bw

09-30-2002, 05:13 PM
To be honest, playing in a league is often more pressure then tournaments or gambling. You may be having problems with the other players. No one wants to be the one that caused the team to lose the match. It can be very scary for a good player much a player of limited ability. I would say you are in fact dogging it, from the team pressure. It is nothing to be embarrassed about, it happens to everyone. From reading many of your posts I think it may be hard to get over. I know you care what people think and want to play good for the team. Play the best you can and hopefully you will start doing better. But try not worrying about the rest of the team. If they don't like it, that is too d%^&amp; bad. Just play. I think this is probably the honest answer.

09-30-2002, 07:31 PM
Is this for real, or are you putting me on? No kidding, show me. I find coincidences like this interesting. I'm not saying I want to be associate with Mr. Fancher - I just began reading his book, and ... well ... I'll see - but it's the coincidence aspect that fascinates me, no joke. So, if you can find it, give me the link.

Thanks.

Bob

bluewolf
10-01-2002, 10:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> I met Mr. Maltz and went to one of the rare lectures he did. The father of a friend was the captain of a sailboat owned by one of the richest men in the world. I got a tour of the boat and in the owners cabin was that book next to the bed. I have read the book many times. You may also want to get the book "Advanced Psycho Cybernetics and Psychofeedback" It is a follow up book by Paul G. Thomas. I am not a big believer in self help book with a few exceptions. I believe in a positive attitude but the problem is, many times players with a negative attitude have good reason to feel like that. They don't know what they are doing and no amount of positive thinking will help. A player that practices well but folds in competition has not developed that part of their game yet. You may play in a dozen tournaments and go 2 and out. At a point it will just go away and you will be able to perform. What makes a player not perform up to their real level is a fear of failure. They worry about not playing well and it poisons their game. But you know what? It just goes away. The key is to keep playing. A player that think they can't compete till they play better has it backwards. Competing is what makes a player. Draw someone like Varner in a tournament and have him end up beating you 11 to 7. You come away with a great feeling. He did not beat you 11 to 0, you played your speed and made a good showing for yourself. No book can give you that kind real positive feedback. I know I am rambling here but I can't make the point strong enough. There is a difference between really wanting to be a good player and doing what it takes and just wishful thinking. They are mostly of the book buyers. Let me add something else. Everything you do usually cost a little money. I have a boat that cost me $300.00 a month to dock and at least a $100.00 every time I take it out. If you play golf it cost money. I see players spend time and money practicing and yet won't pay a $50.00 entry fee to play in a tournament. They are cheating themselves out of the best part of the sport, competing. Is it the money, fear, I don't know, but you see them at every tournament sitting in the stands. It is a lot more fun to take part, then just being a watcher. You can say I played Strickland and not just seen him play once. I sometimes wonder why some of these guys bother practicing. <hr></blockquote>

you have made some very good points here. i hope it applies to me eventually that my lots of practice and doing better at practice than in competition will eventually bleed over into competition.i am trying to take the pressure off and play for fun .someone suggested to get my captains to not tell me what sl i am up against.maybe that will help. i have a laid back team who like to win but dont get bugged if they lose because they see it as a game. they are not putting any pressure on me. all of the pressure has been within myself.and sometimes i think i should be better than i am. and sometimes i am better than i give myself credit for. i know i just need to chill,relax and have fun...hopefully will get better in this regard.

bw

Wally_in_Cincy
10-01-2002, 10:39 AM

bluewolf
10-01-2002, 10:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> To be honest, playing in a league is often more pressure then tournaments or gambling. You may be having problems with the other players. No one wants to be the one that caused the team to lose the match. It can be very scary for a good player much a player of limited ability. I would say you are in fact dogging it, from the team pressure. It is nothing to be embarrassed about, it happens to everyone. From reading many of your posts I think it may be hard to get over. I know you care what people think and want to play good for the team. Play the best you can and hopefully you will start doing better. But try not worrying about the rest of the team. If they don't like it, that is too d%^&amp; bad. Just play. I think this is probably the honest answer. <hr></blockquote>

thanks. you are right. i think if i played in tournaments that would take the team pressure off. but i also know i am putting that pressure on myself, my teamates are not putting it on me most of the time. Afew times though i have been told to run out and the next shot was a 90% cut.when i missed i got all mixed up thinking they expected or thought i was better than i was. but anyway, thanks, i need to learn to relax, play for fun.

bw

bluewolf
10-01-2002, 10:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: fightingbob:</font><hr> Is this for real, or are you putting me on? No kidding, show me. I find coincidences like this interesting. I'm not saying I want to be associate with Mr. Fancher - I just began reading his book, and ... well ... I'll see - but it's the coincidence aspect that fascinates me, no joke. So, if you can find it, give me the link.

Thanks.

Bob <hr></blockquote>

well i just got 'pleasures of small motions'too.ww keeps stealing it from me so i have not gotten very far in it.so far have found some things i liked and somethings in my opinion he is way off on. so once we finish will say what i think but think ww would perceive it differently since he is a diff sl and ed background different.

bw

bluewolf
10-01-2002, 10:50 AM
what would you like for us to call it? &lt;G&gt;

bw

10-01-2002, 11:25 AM
I think he is making reference to starting a new thread so the whole old threat is not continually brought up. Just the current stuff.

bluewolf
10-01-2002, 12:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> I think he is making reference to starting a new thread so the whole old threat is not continually brought up. Just the current stuff. <hr></blockquote>

good idea since we dont seem to be talking about books much.

bw

dddd
10-01-2002, 02:19 PM
as in many things there are people who get the connections and people who dont, each is valuable in its own right, you dont get the connection so you need to look elsewhere
many people do get the connection and its a good place for the information so i beg to differ.

"if you know one pocket" " if you know absolutely nothing about one pocket"
these are quotes and one would think one knows it all
and that is a dangerous thing to think,
the book has great value and the value is on many planes
which you do not get which is fine you need to look elsewhere
but for me i will always look to anything and anyone for info.
i have played one pocket for many a year and the play reflects that

10-01-2002, 04:36 PM
The point was, People are seeking this book out and paying ridiculous prices for it like it is the holy grail. It is not, it is just a nicely done book and little else.

10-24-2002, 12:42 AM
You should get it down and read it.i liked it lots.

10-25-2002, 01:23 PM
http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/newreply.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccbboard&amp;Number=37512&amp;page =1&amp;view=expanded&amp;sb=5&amp;0=31

Quote: houstondan:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




he was, i recall, a failed new york city marriage counsellor who suddenly became "the only sports psychologist who knew a darn thing". somehow, he figured out that he could psychologize the balls into the holes. unfortunately, no-one told the balls. last i heard he was in austin where absolutely nobody on the pool scene has seen him.

actually, he was very warmly received here till he started getting nasty to us dumb pool shooters at which time he became "entertainment". then he left. for reasons that escape me still, the very highly respected g.fels gave him his own column at b.d. which was pretty unreadable and not at all entertaining.

dan...we have no status of which we are aware.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



There are roughly 90 million people who live within one hour's flying time from Manhattan, and yet not one PAID student ever posted a paean or homily after receiving instructions from the BCA Master Talkdowner Fran Crimi.

And to think of all the accolades that Scott Lee, Randy G., Jerry Briesath and others have received here... market forces just don't lie :-)

In "The Pleasures of Small Motion", Fancher paid tribute to Fran as his first teacher and spiritual comrade. So when I read the above-quoted:

"...[snip]... actually, he was very warmly received here till he started getting nasty to us dumb pool shooters at which time he became "entertainment". then he left. for reasons that escape me still, the very highly respected g.fels gave him his own column at b.d. which was pretty unreadable and not at all entertaining."

I couldn't help but spill my afternoon coffee! :-)

10-25-2002, 02:08 PM
Quote:

"...[snip]... actually, he was very warmly received here till he started getting nasty to us dumb pool shooters at which time he became "entertainment". then he left. for reasons that escape me still, the very highly respected g.fels gave him his own column at b.d. which was pretty unreadable and not at all entertaining."


You can pretty well substitue "he" with "she" and see history repeating itself. The diff with Fran is she has a dozen or so pathetic low-brows here who feel elevated by her has-been celeb presence and will defend their queen bee till Kingdom comes. Bob Fancher, however similarly insulting and condescending, did not raise the sullen masses from their hitherto peon status- thus he didn't elicit a similar fanatical following.

They are both highly flawed individuals with few redeeming virtues. BD had to be embarrassed to be continually reminded of these two's past associations with their mag. Given the more high-brow and internationlist flavor in their editorials I think the present chat group-like masses residing here cannot be representative of their general readership. But once entrenched these CCBers now dominate by dint of sheer amount of time on hand. The same 30 people pen 90% of the posts here and they act like they own the Board. Just look at AZB with that nut Harry Gremlin dominating (obsessing about his Pan-Irish domination of the pool and snooker world) and scaring most others away. The same fate is about to happen here and anyone not bowing in front of the Crimi Board Club (CBC) altar is in danger of being run out of here. Need I remind you all of a recent, dramatic example? (Hint, a wildlife is involved.)

Conform or speak up, the choice is up to all you thousands of lurkers out there!

Alfie
10-25-2002, 04:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr>
There are roughly 90 million people who live within one hour's flying time from Manhattan, and yet not one PAID student ever posted a paean or homily after receiving instructions from the BCA Master Talkdowner [snippity snip snip] <hr></blockquote> I realize that just the thought of Frances elicits great emotion in some.

I see the wound is deep.