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eg8r
08-18-2011, 02:56 PM
I saw an interesting article on the CNN website... California bill could give juveniles in prison for life a second chance (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/18/california-bill-could-give-juveniles-in-prison-for-life-a-second-chance/?hpt=hp_t2)

I think this is pretty interesting and something I have never given any thought to. I guess I just never thought that a kid could get a life sentence. I don't watch a lot of local news so I have no idea how often this might happen in Florida but there is a Senator in California that is try to pass a bill that could give some kids a second chance.

After reading the article (not the bill so I have my reservations) I think I like the idea. I am a big proponent of giving second chances and certainly never think anyone is beyond rehabilitation. I know quite a few kids that have had their run ins with the law and sent to prison and that was enough to completely change their life and then I also know a few whom did not learn their lesson and they are spending more time in jail. I am not sure what type of crime leads to a lifetime of imprisonment other than maybe first degree murder so my reservations are tied to the risk of letting someone like that back into the public.

First the families of the victims would probably have a serious problem with this, and rightfully so, but I still wonder if that is enough to keep a rehabilitated child/adult behind bars forever. I also have a problem with the costs associated with lifetime sentences. I am not saying I would let that drive the decision to release a murderer but just that I do know it is expensive so if the criminal has been rehabilitated maybe it is worth giving them a second shot. My second reservation is much more scary to me.

The second reservation I have is what happens if the newly released, or after some time has passed, criminal goes out and kills someone else. This would, for me, be the ultimate fail on the multiple accounts. I would be utterly speechless and have no idea what to say to the second victims family. Second, how would you find root cause in the evaluation process of whether the person was rehabilitated when the process is entirely subjective (meaning other than banning this law how could you make sure it did not happen again)?

What are your thoughts?

eg8r <~~~hoping this stays politics free but also stay active

LWW
08-19-2011, 04:14 AM
Murder is a bridge too far.

Qtec
08-19-2011, 04:37 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess I just never thought that a kid could get a life sentence. </div></div>

WHAT!!!!!!!!! You were unaware of this? You obviously never read my posts. First you don't know who Pam Geller [ nutjob anti-Muslim (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/) is and now this?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">California law allows kids as young as 14 to be sentenced to life without parole for certain crimes. </div></div>

Barbaric.

Q

LWW
08-19-2011, 05:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barbaric.

Q </div></div>

Why?

Qtec
08-19-2011, 05:25 AM
Ask Perry or Bachmann. They SAY they are all for a more Christian America.

Jesus preached love, not hate.
Jesus preached forgiveness, not revenge.

Putting a child in jail with no hope of release is barbaric. It all about punishment, not rehabilitation.

Q

LWW
08-19-2011, 05:35 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Putting a child in jail with no hope of release is barbaric. It all about punishment, not rehabilitation.

Q </div></div>

And?

Are you claiming people shouldn't be punished for their crimes?

Qtec
08-19-2011, 05:37 AM
How many bankers are in jail?

Q

LWW
08-19-2011, 05:38 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jesus preached love, not hate.
Jesus preached forgiveness, not revenge.

Q </div></div>

You have no clue of what you speak:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gospel of Saint Matthew, Chapter 5, verses 21 - 26</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.</div></div>

Qtec
08-19-2011, 05:45 AM
and?

What is your point?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">esus' Attitude toward Adultery
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: Ex. 20.14 Deut. 5.18
28 but I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 <span style='font-size: 14pt'>And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out,</span> and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Mt. 18.9 Mk. 9.47
30 <span style='font-size: 14pt'>And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off,</span> and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Mt. 18.8 Mk. 9.43

</div></div>

Sounds like Sharia Law!

Q

LWW
08-19-2011, 05:49 AM
Not even remotely close ... but comprehension never was your long suit.

I also find it amusing how you flipped from"JESUS TEACHES NO PUNISHMENT FOR CRIME" to "JESUS TEACHES SHARIA LAW" in one post.

The sad part is your doublethinking brain believes both statements to be true.

eg8r
08-19-2011, 08:05 AM
Yep, I was unaware.

eg8r

eg8r
08-19-2011, 08:10 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jesus preached love, not hate.
Jesus preached forgiveness, not revenge.
</div></div>Why do people always equate forgiveness and forgetfulness. Putting a criminal in jail has nothing to do with forgiveness, that is up to the victim or the victims family. No where in the Bible does it say you should forget. Jail is perfectly acceptable for those who do wrong.

I am a bit conflicted as to the idea of a life sentence for a kid if the kid is rehabilitated at some point and there is a very lock solid non-subjective way to judge this.

If a child murders someone in cold blood (like the guys did not too long ago for killing the man because he was black) then a very long time in jail is acceptable. Life, I am not sure. However, let's say the courts think like you and call life sentence barbaric and only give these kids 10 years. What happens if they go out and do it again once released. What would you desire as far as punishment?

eg8r

eg8r
08-19-2011, 08:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also find it amusing how you flipped from"JESUS TEACHES NO PUNISHMENT FOR CRIME" to "JESUS TEACHES SHARIA LAW" in one post.
</div></div>It is unfortunate that people will pick and choose what they want to use as ammo given the subject they want to convey. Like you said qtip mentioned Jesus' love as proof why Christians should agree with him that life imprisonment for a child is barbaric however when presented an example of the Bible sending someone to prison qtip abandons his "Jesus is love mantra" and tells us that Jesus wants to cut your hand off.

eg8r

eg8r
08-19-2011, 08:17 AM
I don't think he is claiming that at all. I think the complaint is that it does not include both with the opportunity for the criminal to prove themselves rehabilitated.

This is a tough subject and I wish more people would join the discussion.

eg8r

eg8r
08-19-2011, 08:17 AM
Don't change the subject. The first one is tough enough as it is.

eg8r

eg8r
08-19-2011, 08:18 AM
So in your mind one strike is all you get? I can accept that and felt the same way my whole life but now I am questioning it for myself.

eg8r

LWW
08-19-2011, 09:00 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So in your mind one strike is all you get? I can accept that and felt the same way my whole life but now I am questioning it for myself.

eg8r </div></div>

In the case of murder one, yes.

To allow such a person back into the community is negligence of the first order.

Assault, robbery, other crimes ... I can see where a redeemed criminal gets a chance to be free once they have paid a price commensurate with the crime.

What price is commensurate with the crime of taking the life of an innocent in cold blood?

IMHO it is entirely immoral for a society to not seek vengeance on behalf of an innocent victim who has been victimized in the extreme.

Soflasnapper
08-19-2011, 10:47 AM
Murder must be the crime for which they've been sentenced to life. And it cannot be murder in the second degree, but in the first degree, pre-meditated murder in cold blood. At least I think that is so.

Normally, murder is a crime with a very low, and perhaps the lowest, recidivism rate. That stat would argue that there is relatively little risk for society to let these perps loose. However, that is a stat for mainly adult murderers, and would include the second degree murderers.

So it might not apply that clearly to psycho-killing juveniles who have already displayed depraved indifference to human life at so early an age. I would judge the likelihood of THEIR recidivism as higher than the general murdering population. Meaning that there could very well be a significant risk to society.

I don't think looking at society's cost to incarcerate them permanently is the way to decide this. One should instead balance those costs against the likelihood of repeat offending (meaning, more deaths from murders from these people).

While this may vary from case to case, and maybe SOME of these perps could be considered rehabilitated (or matured), I doubt most of them would be. So I don't favor a wholesale allowance of review. Sadly, these kids have put themselves on the garbage heap of failed lives, and society has the interests of everyone else to take into account.

LWW
08-19-2011, 12:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think looking at society's cost to incarcerate them permanently is the way to decide this. One should instead balance those costs against the likelihood of repeat offending (meaning, more deaths from murders from these people). <span style='font-size: 11pt'><span style="color: #3333FF">A just hanging takes that likelihood to essentially zero. A life sentence takes the likelihood far higher as someone doing life has little to fear from the law when a lesser criminal or guard crosses them.</span></span> ...

Sadly, these kids have put themselves on the garbage heap of failed lives, and society has the interests of everyone else to take into account. <span style='font-size: 11pt'><span style="color: #3333FF">I couldn't have said it better myself.</span></span>

</div></div>

Soflasnapper
08-19-2011, 03:01 PM
It's bad enough that we have juvies in prison for life. We certainly do not need to execute them, as in fact may be illegal, although I'm not sure of that.

In any case, given the permanent nature of any error as to those the state executes (see: Perry executes innocent persons, e.g.), I do not support the death penalty for anyone, let alone minors.

Most countries we'd want to be associated with don't have the death penalty at all (Israel makes an exception only for war criminals), and most countries that continue to have a death penalty, we wouldn't want to be associated with (China, dictatorships throughout the 3rd world, etc.).

In places like NY, the death penalty is only considered when it's a murdered police officer case, iirc.

LWW
08-19-2011, 03:20 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do not support the death penalty for anyone</div></div>

So somebody who breaks into a car to steal a $500.00 stereo should be forced to share a society with a cold blooded killer ... but not you?

Soflasnapper
08-19-2011, 06:16 PM
What preposterous line of thought leads you to say that?

I doubt it's even true in the first place, that smallish crimes as you've posited get people in general population with 1st degree murderers sentenced to life imprisonment. I suspect they are held in segregated quarters, away from the general population.

But you know, if you're right, IF I am convicted of a crime myself, THEN I'd also 'share a society' with that heinous criminal.

No crime, no conviction, no problem, in any event.

LWW
08-20-2011, 05:24 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What preposterous line of thought leads you to say that?

I doubt it's even true in the first place, that smallish crimes as you've posited get people in general population with 1st degree murderers sentenced to life imprisonment. I suspect they are held in segregated quarters, away from the general population.

But you know, if you're right, IF I am convicted of a crime myself, THEN I'd also 'share a society' with that heinous criminal.

No crime, no conviction, no problem, in any event.
</div></div>

You are OK with a murder one conviction resulting in the animal being incarcerated for life among innocent guards and lesser criminals ... knowing that the legal system has absolutely zero means of further punishing someone who is on a life sentence.

Why?

Under what logic do you sentence others to endure this ... simply so you can maintain a false belief that you are a kind and benevolent person?

Soflasnapper
08-20-2011, 10:49 PM
My stand against capital punishment is to ensure the state does not use the strongest punishment of all, execution, on innocent persons. As it most certainly has-- executing innocent parties who did not do the crime. Why is this outcome somehow better in your view from a problem you claim exists but which probably doesn't?

I am unaware of any significant numbers of murders in prison from those serving life sentences for murder 1 (likely because of the segregation of populations that I've suggested is the case), and will also note that murders in prison can be done by anyone in prison for any crime, carrying any length of sentence.

If these guys had impulse control to not commit a crime because they feared punishment, they probably wouldn't be in prison in the first place.

Soflasnapper
08-20-2011, 10:54 PM
Prison murders plunge in US jails

Many suicides occurred within the first week in custody
The number of US prisoners who are murdered in jail or commit suicide has dropped dramatically since 1980, according to the government.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Murder in state prisons fell by more than 90% from 1980 to 2002</span>, and suicide rates dropped by 60%.

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>Civil rights groups say the falling figures are due to a better separation of violent and non-violent inmates.</span>

The report, compiled by the US justice department, compares death in custody in 1980 with 2002.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Murders in state prisons fell from 54 per 100,000 prisoners in 1980 to four per 100,000 in 2002</span>, the department said.

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4173046.stm)

Qtec
08-21-2011, 03:04 AM
The guy in the link (http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog/archives/2011/08/19/flash-west-memphis-3-freed-in-plea-bargain-on-1993-murders) , he was on death row. The guy is totally innocent. His was crime was 'looking weird'.

Q

LWW
08-21-2011, 03:33 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My stand against capital punishment is to ensure the state does not use the strongest punishment of all, execution, on innocent persons.</div></div>

And, in reality, that practice actually insures that innocents pay the highest price.

Do you honestly believe that people doing life stop killing simply because they are doing life?

LWW
08-21-2011, 03:36 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The guy in the link (http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog/archives/2011/08/19/flash-west-memphis-3-freed-in-plea-bargain-on-1993-murders) , he was on death row. The guy is totally innocent. His was crime was 'looking weird'.

Q </div></div>

Strangely your link doesn't say anything even remotely close to what you claim it says?

In fact ... it says that they plead guilty, and admitted that the state had sufficient evidence to convict them, in a plea bargain for a reduced sentence.

Soflasnapper
08-21-2011, 02:16 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My stand against capital punishment is to ensure the state does not use the strongest punishment of all, execution, on innocent persons.</div></div>

And, in reality, that practice actually insures that innocents pay the highest price.

Do you honestly believe that people doing life stop killing simply because they are doing life? </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ryan had halted all executions in the state nearly three years earlier after courts found that 13 Illinois death row inmates had been wrongly convicted since capital punishment resumed in 1977 - a period when 12 other inmates were executed.</div></div>

cushioncrawler
08-21-2011, 05:25 PM
I am thinking that it would be Christian to be nice and lenient, with praps some forgivness even.
Then later of course God will make sure that they burn in Hell for eternity.
mac.

LWW
08-22-2011, 02:23 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am thinking that it would be Christian to be nice and lenient, with praps some forgivness even.
Then later of course God will make sure that they burn in Hell for eternity.
mac. </div></div>

The ten commandments don't state "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" as most people believe.

LWW
08-22-2011, 02:28 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My stand against capital punishment is to ensure the state does not use the strongest punishment of all, execution, on innocent persons.</div></div>

And, in reality, that practice actually insures that innocents pay the highest price.

Do you honestly believe that people doing life stop killing simply because they are doing life? </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ryan had halted all executions in the state nearly three years earlier after courts found that 13 Illinois death row inmates had been wrongly convicted since capital punishment resumed in 1977 - a period when 12 other inmates were executed.</div></div> </div></div>

As valid as your point is ... we don't live in a perfect world and this sadly comes down to math.

With the death penalty, sometimes the system errs and an innocent dies.

Without the death penalty, the killer quite often kills again.

I wish I could provide a flawless system ... but I can't.

Absent perfection, all I can promote is the system which provides society with the highest level of protection while attempting to eliminate the errors inherent in a human system.

Qtec
08-22-2011, 03:28 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As valid as your point is ... we don't live in a perfect world and this sadly comes down to math </div></div>

Not math.
As I have shown in the 'West Memphis 3'thread, , 3 innocent kids were sent to jail , for LIFE, because a of a dumb ass superstitious jury and a crooked police force.

Q

LWW
08-22-2011, 04:02 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As valid as your point is ... we don't live in a perfect world and this sadly comes down to math </div></div>

Not math.
As I have shown in the 'West Memphis 3'thread, , 3 innocent kids were sent to jail , for LIFE, because a of a dumb ass superstitious jury and a crooked police force.

Q </div></div>

And multiple confessions ... as recent as last week.

Why do you continue to paint a lopsided reality?

What's that?

Reality doesn't advance your agenda?

eg8r
08-22-2011, 11:53 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With the death penalty, sometimes the system errs and an innocent dies.

</div></div>I think at that point if there is the possiblity then we would need to stop the executions. I have had a big change of heart on this subject in the last few years and I am now against the death penalty. Solitary confinement is not as terrible an option and will give people on the outside time to prove innocence if possible.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
08-25-2011, 11:15 AM
With the death penalty, sometimes the system errs and an innocent dies.

Without the death penalty, the killer quite often kills again.

The first is definitely true. The second is not true.

The truth of the second situation is that a murderer very rarely kills again. Recidivism of murder is among the most rare among criminal recidivism. And that is true, even though many murderers are released from prison. It is still more true when they are IN prison.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Recidivism rates

As reported on BBC Radio 4 on 2 September 2005, the recidivism rates for released prisoners in the United States of America is 60% compared with 50% in the United Kingdom but cross-country statistical comparisons are often questionable.[citation needed] The report attributed the lower recidivism rate in the UK to a focus on rehabilitation and education of prisoners compared with the US focus on punishment, deterrence and keeping potentially dangerous individuals away from society.

The United States Department of Justice tracked the rearrest, re-conviction, and re-incarceration of former inmates for 3 years after their release from prisons in 15 states in 1994.[10] Key findings include:

Released prisoners with the highest rearrest rates were robbers (70.2%), burglars (74.0%), larcenists (74.6%), motor vehicle thieves (78.8%), those in prison for possessing or selling stolen property (77.4%), and those in prison for possessing, using, or selling illegal weapons (70.2%).

Within 3 years, 2.5% of released rapists were arrested for another rape, and <span style='font-size: 17pt'>1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for homicide. These are the lowest rates of re-arrest for the same category of crime.</span>

The 272,111 offenders discharged in 1994 had accumulated 4.1 million arrest charges before their most recent imprisonment and another 744,000 charges within 3 years of release.

</div></div>

eg8r
08-25-2011, 11:48 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It is still more true when they are IN prison.

</div></div>Do you think that their lack of privacy and easy access to weapons might be the driving factor instead of actual rehabilitation?

eg8r

LWW
08-25-2011, 11:50 AM
A completely misleading stat as most murderers get life.

But. let' accept it as valid.

If 10 murders are released each year per state, then 6 more murder victims will have been de facto issued a death sentence to satisfy your urge to be seen as a compassionate person.

Soflasnapper
08-25-2011, 07:53 PM
Your math is correct, but your conclusion, mistaken.

The 1.2% is for the RE-ARREST on homicide charges, not eventual proof of guilt and conviction on that charge at that rate.

As we know, a significant number of even those CONVICTED of murder are innocent. How many more among those just ARRESTED for murder are innocent as well?

You don't suppose being a prior convicted murderer might occasion an arrest for that person, even when he did not commit that crime?

Qtec
08-25-2011, 08:24 PM
75% of the 250 or so death row convicts, who have been released after DNA evidence proved their innocence, were convicted on eye witness testimony.

Don't get me started about false confessions.

Q......see the Memphis 3 confession. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

LWW
08-26-2011, 04:01 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your math is correct, but your conclusion, mistaken.

The 1.2% is for the RE-ARREST on homicide charges, not eventual proof of guilt and conviction on that charge at that rate.

As we know, a significant number of even those CONVICTED of murder are innocent. How many more among those just ARRESTED for murder are innocent as well?

You don't suppose being a prior convicted murderer might occasion an arrest for that person, even when he did not commit that crime?

</div></div>

Your lame argument also ignores murders for which no charges are ever brought.

And if you claim a significant amount of those convicted are innocent ... define significant and then make your case.

Soflasnapper
08-26-2011, 05:12 PM
I think the figure for the Illinois death row was 23% innocent, when it was looked into.

LWW
08-26-2011, 06:45 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the figure for the Illinois death row was 23% innocent, when it was looked into.

</div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you make a claim, you post a link.

Q </div></div>

Soflasnapper
08-28-2011, 12:10 PM
There is no available citation for what I think, other than what I post. So the link is right here.

From what I've seen looking around, about 1 person has been released from death row for every 7 who have been executed (in that same time period, after the SCOTUS moratorium on the death penalty was lifted), which is a 14+% rate, but not really measuring what I was talking about.

Then there's this: Death sentences overturned in 2 out of 3 appeals. (http://partners.nytimes.com/library/national/061200death-penalty.html) Which was the figure as of the 2000 publishing date. Other sources state also confirm an 82% overturning of the death penalty for such convictions that make it to appeal.

Unfortunately, the execution-happy bid of the DLC and Clinton to take the death penalty away from the GOP as an issue resulted in the '96 Effective Death Penalty Act, which limited those convicted to just one habeas corpus appeal, even when there was later proof of innocence. It was ruled that the state is under no obligation not to execute provably innocent persons, which comes perilously close to state murder, in my view.

What the Illinois finding was, was 14 innocent men on death row, as of Ryan's suspension of the death penalty by his commutation of all death penalties to life in prison (the 14 were released). If the number of persons on death row there was 61, then the 14 innocents would be about 23%. (Haven't found the number who were there at that time.) Or do your own math, and let me know what percentage of innocents YOU think is acceptable to execute.

If it were 'only' 12%, would that be ok with you?

DickLeonard
08-28-2011, 12:46 PM
Soflasnapper GWB killed 152 prisoners. The odds of them being guilty is pretty low according to the facts that are now coming to light.####

Soflasnapper
08-28-2011, 02:19 PM
I will disagree with how you put it, Dick, while I know and appreciate and agree with part of it (to a degree, but not to that extent).

It is true that the state of Texas, using the laws of Texas, did these things. It is also true that W, although possessing only the weak powers of the weakest governorship in the country, failed to use the powers he did have to perform anything like a reasonable executive review over these sentences, which he certainly should have done. But then, there's this:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">b. In Texas, due to the misuse of the pardoning power by Governor Miriam Ferguson (1933-35), the power was limited by the establishment of the state Pardons and Paroles Board, which must recommend to the governor what action he or she can take; without a recommendation, the Texas governor can only grant one thirty-day stay of execution </div></div>

Soflasnapper
08-28-2011, 03:01 PM
I will add that W could have directed the pardon and parole board to re-examine any particular case, and they probably would have done that, considering they were his appointees.

So far as I know, W did not do that, except in the case of the notorious serial killer, Henry Lee Lucas.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In 1998, the Texas Board of Pardon and Parole voted to commute Lucas's death sentence to life imprisonment, in accordance with Governor George W. Bush's request. </div></div>

That is understandable, of course, because probably Lucas killed no more than 15 to 17 people, not the 350 or 650 that were attributed to him. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif (cough)

I expect MOST of those persons Texas executed under Bush's leadership were guilty of the crime as charged, convicted, and sentenced.

But it's also fair to say that W had no way of really knowing that, given his perfunctory reviews, and that almost certainly, some of those executed were innocent.