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View Full Version : Time for CCB forum changes



NH_Steve
09-19-2002, 07:42 AM
A quick breeze through the current threads of the CCB shows a whole lot of poor taste trash talk, quite a few no-pool-related posts & replies, and generally a decline in quality of pool related information in recent months, IMHO. And with plenty of competition for pool related internet readership (RSB, AZ, etc), it's time for Billiards Digest to get a grip on their site if they want to maintain a BB that reflects well on their fine magazine -- not the National Enquirer!

They should promptly excercise at least three or four of these options:

1) Locking down offensive threads -- This is standard practice on the NPR BB I regularly visit (<a target="_blank" href=http://www.uscho.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&amp;forumid=4>US College Hockey Online</a> if you would like to check it out.) When posts digress to incessant name-calling &amp; other drivel (as they inevitably often do -- that's a fact of life), they lock the thread. Really bad stuff, like racial slurs, get deleted by the 'moderator'. Every post has a little link in the corner "report this post to the moderator" -- if you feel like being a snitch /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif .

2) Split the CCB forum into at least two -- make the current CCB just for pool &amp; billiards, and create a CCB 'Cafe' for NPR topics &amp; chit chat. The Cafe at USCHO is pretty popular, and definitely helps elevate the quality of the main div 1 college hockey site -- by subtraction!

3) Get a grip on 'anonymous' posters -- Maybe by not allowing them, or maybe the problem would be largely solved simply by upgrading the role of the 'moderator' as I suggested above. I for one would have no problem reporting an anonymous post in poor taste, whereas I'm a bit more reluctant to snitch on a regular who has just got a little bit carried away.

4) Go ahead &amp; suspend a registered user for a few weeks if they repeatedly abuse the forum. I know it's no big deal to just reregister under another email address, but regular posters do get attached to their handles &amp; some like their post counts, too. It's not much, but it would help set the tone that BD wants.

None of these changes would limit 'free speech', IMO, but they would go a long ways towards getting a grip on the direction of the CCB. A quick visit to RSB might be a wake-up call -- they are clearly still getting some of the quality, knowledgeable posters that have lamentably been a bit absent from the CCB lately.

*Peace*

09-19-2002, 07:47 AM
i'm advised this morning that at least one change has been made, action taken. see if you notice.

dan

NH_Steve
09-19-2002, 07:50 AM
I did notice that I had to log in fresh this AM, apparently my 'cookie' was stale /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
09-19-2002, 07:50 AM
I like your suggestions. While you were writing that I was writing the post below:


When I saw d0wnt0wn's post yesterday I was hoping folks would just let it die. Instead it turned into one of the ugliest things I've seen here. Please don't let this board turn into an elementary school recess.

So far we've run off:

Howie Pearl-the greatest storyteller the CCB has ever seen. (#### Leonard is a close second and he doesn't come around much either).

George Fels-sometimes he will post but I'm sure he gets tired of wading thru the garbage.

Fran-obviously on hiatus now.

Chris in NC-I sure he's too busy to try to find the good stuff amongst the nonsense.

Randy G-We could all benefit from his knowledge but he's not nearly as active here as he used to be.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The best thing we can do is NOT RESPOND to malicious posts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The typical d0wnt0wn thread should go something like this:

d0wnt0wn: "(Insert name here) is an idiot"

nAz: "Ba ha ha you're funny"

bluewolf: "I think only left-brained people are idiots"

and if anybody else responds you're just asking for trouble.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK d0wnt0wn take your best shot, just don't expect a response.

Kato
09-19-2002, 07:51 AM
I do believe a moderator is a step in the right direction. I lurk on WZforums a little and they have moderators that lock and delete threads, switch them to seperate forums, ect. I do believe the moderators is a regular however.

Kato

9 Ball Girl
09-19-2002, 07:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: NH_Steve:</font><hr> Get a grip on 'anonymous' posters -- Maybe by not allowing them, or maybe the problem would be largely solved simply by upgrading the role of the 'moderator' as I suggested above. I for one would have no problem reporting an anonymous post in poor taste, whereas I'm a bit more reluctant to snitch on a regular who has just got a little bit carried away.<hr></blockquote>

You post a good argument. Only I'm not too crazy about the "not letting Anonymous" posters post because I'm sure you have a lot of the "higher caliber" players that lurk/post anonymously, JMO.

09-19-2002, 08:08 AM
Im am a little slow, what is the change?

NH_Steve
09-19-2002, 08:09 AM
I agree completely about some of the anonymous posters -- many of them are in fact highly informative posts, that's why I'd rather see the more active moderator approach instead of totally disallowing anonyposters...

NH_Steve
09-19-2002, 08:10 AM
obviously not disallowing anonymous posts /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

09-19-2002, 08:14 AM
Greetings, Steve. I think that your suggestions make sense. Thanks for your efforts.

Duke Mantee

09-19-2002, 08:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: NH_Steve:</font><hr> obviously not disallowing anonymous posts /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif <hr></blockquote>

no, i would argue against eliminating anon. posts.

well, if it is the policy of the board admin. not to announce such actions then i probably should not preempt them by doin so. i will say that the "contact us" button at the bottom of this page works.

dan

9 Ball Girl
09-19-2002, 08:36 AM
I believe HoustanDan is referring to the absence of our IP addresses.

Amanda
09-19-2002, 09:03 AM
I've seen this happen to countless forums over the past 14+ yrs. For many years it was the newsgroups on usenet, some forums became moderated but that can end up being a huge PITA to keep up with all the requested postings.

The first thing that has to happen to stop these flame wars is to stop feeding into it. People who thrive on the controversy will only stop when people stop replying to their banter. Someone posts insults, inflamatory remarks, calls names, lies, whatever, don't even dignify it with a response. If you do, you become just as responsible as the initiator. Just like IRL, doesn't matter who threw the first punch, you were both fighting so you are both guilty!

Second possibility (as mentioned by Steve) would be splitting into two forums. One moderated for serious pool discussion, another open forum for off topic discussions.

The responsibility falls on each of us to make this a better forum, a nice place to exchange information/knowledge on the sport we all love so much. What are YOU going to do to change it?

Amanda

TomBrooklyn
09-19-2002, 09:04 AM
Quote: Wally_in_Cincy:
The typical d0wnt0wn thread should go something like this:

d0wnt0wn: "(Insert name here) is an idiot"
nAz: "Ba ha ha you're funny"
bluewolf: "I think only left-brained people are idiots"

and if anybody else responds you're just asking for trouble. <hr></blockquote>This is one of the most succinct, simple, and yet thorough evaluations of the situation in recent memory.

Most of people who call for the CCB admin to censor dOwntOwn or anyone else don't need help in controling dOwntOwn or any other. They need help in controlling themselves. They can't control themselves, and instead of learning how, they seek an administrative power to control their activities for them.

They get involved in "offensive posts", they engage the "offender" in discussion. They debate him, write to him, and write about him.

Then they they cry out, get this guy out of here, I don't like him.

If you play with fire, you will get burned.

Don't wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty but the pig likes it.

If you don't want to play with a particular poster, don't. But don't play with them, and then go crying to mommie when you don't like the way it turns out.

=TB=

rackmup
09-19-2002, 09:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> I believe HoustanDan is referring to the absence of our IP addresses. <hr></blockquote>

...and the fact that at least one recent offensive poster has been evicted from the property, his belongings placed on the curb and his car tire "booted" for failing to adhere to the rules. It will be up to you to figure out who.

Regards,

Ken

09-19-2002, 09:20 AM
Howdy folks,
Our nation became the most regulated society on plannet Earth.No other Nation,I think,has so many Laws on the book.U cannot even paint your house with the color u like.we deceive ourselves with the slogans like``free country``.No doubt I have witnessed hate,mean,vicious,evil comments on this board most recently but this should not make us some drastic actions leading to further erosion of the first amendment.Some additional comments:
(1)I have seen some moderators of some rooms behave in Silly/irrational/immature/dictatorial/nasty/stupid manner.
(2)I am not in favor of eliminating Annonymous posters.I do not have to know who they are before I respond to them.It is silly to think that some body who puts some name is more credible/authentic/whatever.
(3)In the past I posted under the caption of ``Do not bleed when u are swimming with the sharks``.I,for most part,practice this principle in dealing with people( who should have been dead in the crib.But they did not and they became a menace to our society and CCB)
(4) some of the problems are caused by the so called respectable members of this board.These members with their Self righteousness/controlling mentality tried to control a comment from a crazy poster.This crazy posters became crazier and crazier.
I hope that the things are going change for better with out resorting to Gustapoism,Fascism,Dictatorialism.( u will not find these words in webster`s dictionary) cheers
Vagabond

MikeM
09-19-2002, 09:31 AM
Vagabond (if this is really you and I don't think it is),

Why do you use the term knee jerk reaction? The original post in this thread is a well reasoned, well phrased request for thought and opinion on the subject. Replies have mostly been well thought out and reasonable (except yours).

Phrases like "should have died in the crib", "most regulated society on the planet earth" and "facism, dictatorialism" are a little over the top don't you think.

Why don't you relax, read the threads, put some thought into your comments and keep it in perspective. Anything that happens on this particular internet discussion board is not likely to lead to the downfall of American society.

MM

Troy
09-19-2002, 09:33 AM
IP's have been gone for a day or two......

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> I believe HoustanDan is referring to the absence of our IP addresses. <hr></blockquote>

9 Ball Girl
09-19-2002, 09:40 AM
Yeah I know. I guess I should've said something like "I believe HoustanDan is referring to the absence of our IP addresses that went into effect a couple of days ago." Oopsie. Anyway, it's actually the fact that we lost one of our regular posters.

09-19-2002, 09:43 AM
Steve, at first glance, your suggestions make a lot of sense. I don't like to see people denigrated, and many good folks have left, rather then put up with the personal attacks. I've got to say though, that I enjoyed Rackmup's clever put-down's to the trash-talkers.I have a small problem though with narrowing the topics of discussion to only pool. I see the board as a group of folks that have pool as a common interest, but occasionally, ok, more then occasionally, have another topic to discuss, or share, or try to entertain us with. Is this a discussion forum, or a focus group? I post anonymously because I registered awhile back, forgot either the user name oe password, and after repeated emails cannot get that info from BD..also cannot reregister, Bd's "catch 22" anonymous jack

stickman
09-19-2002, 09:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> Anyway, it's actually the fact that we lost one of our regular posters. <hr></blockquote>

If this is what I suspect, it has to be at least one of the best things I've read here in a while. Lately it's taken a little looking to find the good stuff. LOL

09-19-2002, 10:01 AM
I DO NOT favor the elimination of 'anonymous' posts, but certainly would welcome a moderated forum.

I would however suggest a modicum of democracy in any actions that would directly affect the content of the board or the status of a registered CCB member. Such actions should not come at the whim of a single person, but perhaps require the consensus of at least three or more moderators.

Jay M
09-19-2002, 10:16 AM
Ack! now we're going to turn the CCB into a Representative Democracy.

Seriously,
This is the internet. You will ALWAYS have posters that try to flame other posters, hijack threads or just plain ruin the experience for others. The admin can only do so much, but the bottom line is that the internet is a free form forum for sharing information. Some of the information is good, some of it is bad. It's up to the individual user to decide what is good or bad TO THEM. I agree with the separate areas theory, that is the best solution. I play some online games and their message boards are set up with different sections and the moderators have the ability to move posts from one area to the next. All of those types of games have, at the very least:

1) main board - for on-topic posts
2) a "whineplay" board - for people that want to complain about something
3) a "flame" area - for people taking shots at others on a personal level.

Because the moderators (which are normally drawn from the active posters) are not admins, they can't really do anything to the messages themselves except move them into an appropriate forum or mark them for the true admins to review to see if a post or thread warrants deletion. This makes it so that all of those threads that have devolved into name-calling and bashing would be moved into the "flame" section. The threads still exist (unless the reviewer decides to delete them), but those that don't want to read them don't have to wade past them to find the real topics.

Jay M

TomBrooklyn
09-19-2002, 10:42 AM
Quote: NH_Steve:
(BD)should exercise at least three or four of these options:

1) Lock down offensive threads
2) Split the CCB forum into two -- pool &amp; billiards, and a CCB 'Cafe'
3) Get a grip on 'anonymous' posters
4) Go ahead &amp; suspend a registered user for a few weeks if they repeatedly abuse the forum.

None of these changes would limit 'free speech'. A visit to RSB might be a wake-up call -- they are getting some of the quality, knowledgeable posters that have lamentably been absent from the CCB lately. <hr></blockquote>1) None of these would limit free speech? Huh? Limiting speech is precisely what three of the four items call for.

2) You're correct that RSB has a lot of pool info and knowledgeable posters. They also have more posters than this board. They always have. And it was also around long before this forum or the world wide web even existed. And they used to come here sometimes. And they still do, when there is something here that interests them. Threads like this don't interest them.

3) However, RSB utilizes none of your suggestions and could not implement them even if they wanted to. Therefore, these ideas would make it less likely to attract RSBers, not more.

That being said, I hardly ever go to RSB. I like it here more. It is a smaller group and more socially inclined than RSB. It always has been. And I have rarely been disappointed in getting an answer to a pool related question or generating discussion on a pool related topic here.

4) If some of the more knowledgeable pool experts don't come here as much as they used to, it's not because of trolls or obnoxious posts, they have more of them there than here. It is because the trolls get lots of attention here. There is much whining and crying and gnashing of teeth. Lots of folks love to talk to the trolls, then write threads to talk about the trolls. It is one of the favorite topics here.

5) On RSB trolls are ignored, or blasted and then ignored, and then they move on quickly; precisely because there is no administrator who can do a thing about it. They have learned by necessity to be big boys and girls who know how to handle the problem.

6) Further, in the old CCB days when there were more of the posters that you say you like, long before you or most of the other complainers were here; there was no control whatsoever imposed by the webmaster, unlike the current version of the board.

7) You are not going to generate more pool topics by complaining about topics you don't like. You are only going to bury the existing pool topics beneath the complaints. This thread adds nothing pool related to the forum. I don't care, but why are you complaining? Your the one who perpetuates this stuff.

Personally, I enjoy these threads, but that should be obvious. How can one tell? Because I'm participating in them, ....just like you. The only difference between me and you is that I don't participate in something and then kid myself that I don't like it.

Trolls don't control my pool experience, I control my pool experience.

=TB=

heater451
09-19-2002, 11:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> . . .I post anonymously because I registered awhile back, forgot either the user name oe password, and after repeated emails cannot get that info from BD..also cannot reregister, Bd's "catch 22" anonymous jack <hr></blockquote>I don't know who you emailed, but just as a possibility. . . If you emailed the "webmaster", then you probably won't get a reply. The "ccb_admin" (find him/her in the User List) will be more likely to be able to help you.


=====================

rackmup
09-19-2002, 11:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr>Most of people who call for the CCB admin to censor dOwntOwn or anyone else don't need help in controling dOwntOwn or any other. They need help in controlling themselves. They can't control themselves, and instead of learning how, they seek an administrative power to control their activities for them.<hr></blockquote>

Tom,

While I agree to some degree, it is in the best interests of the CCB Admin to "patrol and control" the board. Others, who are new to the board, may not be aware of the verbage used by the "negative" posters and will inevitably stumble into posts that are offensive.

We, as "regulars", know what to expect from the knuckleheads and ultimately, can avoid them. Others, including our youth, can be the innocent recipients of the vulgarity.

Regards,

Ken

TomBrooklyn
09-19-2002, 11:16 AM
Quote: rackmup:...our youth can be the innocent recipients of the vulgarity.<hr></blockquote>Oh no, not the "We Have To Protect The Children" argument. No one can oppose the "We Have To Protect The Children" argument.

I think the CCB Admin should delete all posts that bring up the "We Have To Protect The Children" argument.

=TB=

Ross
09-19-2002, 11:30 AM
Steve,
All are EXCELLENT suggestions.

1. We need moderators.

All bulletin boards end up with flame wars. Admonishing posters to ignore them doesn't work because it only takes a few members to keep them going. The best board I have seen is http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/index.php . They have separate sections for different topics - US Mens Team, MLS, ... Each section has one or more volunteer moderators. Their function? To quote "Moderators oversee specific forums. They generally have the ability to edit and delete posts, move threads, and perform other manipulations. Becoming a moderator for a specific forum is usually rewarded to users who are particularly helpful and knowledgable in the subject of the forum they are moderating."

They also have a yellow card, red card system like in soccer, with a yellow card (which appears next to your name when you post) being a warning for personal attacks, and a red card if the poster persists. Privileges (starting new threads, etc.) are reduced for those with red cards.

Note that the moderators are not "thought police." They don't squelch arguments, disagreements, wacky ideas, etc. They only step in when the posts are blatant personal attacks. Read one of the BigSoccer Forums and you will see that there is still plenty of room for opinionated posts, and moderate flaming.

2. We need different forums within CCB.

As you suggest there should be a social chat section ("The Billiard Parlor"?) so that the CCB community can talk about non-pool related things. Then there needs to be one or more pool-related only sections. Any non-pool related posts are moved to the "The Billiard Parlor." I would suggest more than one pool section. For example there could be a forum for "Rules" related posts, one for "Play" for posts related to the play of the game (techniques, etc.), one for "Equipment" relating to cues, tables, etc,and finally one labeled "General" which could contain any other other pool-related posts (for example UPA/Open, WPBA, upcoming tournaments, etc.).

I don't know if Infopop software will support setting up different forums and moderator privileges for selected posters. If not, maybe BD could pick some new software. But I do know that Bigsoccer.com has grown into the number one (by far) board for soccer discussions. The professional players and the national team coach all read it regularly. With some organization and "non-heavy handed" moderators CCB could become such a place. This in turn could lead to good publicity/business for BD.

nAz
09-19-2002, 11:45 AM
So who is going to be on the board of monitors? you , me?
or some non pool player. I sugest CRIMI, Downtown, Tom in Cin. and Tom in BKLN. and bluewolf.
Jesus crist this board is crasy skip over the non pool treads and stop the arguements!
DAMN Tom you are right i agree with ya!

And as for starting a two seperate forums one for pool and nonpool thats good too,i know all you people who complain about the useless post now will be in the Nonpool forum more then the pool one BITCHING about some thing else

SPetty
09-19-2002, 12:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Ross:</font><hr> 2. We need different forums within CCB.

Then there needs to be one or more pool-related only sections. Any non-pool related posts are moved to the "The Billiard Parlor." I would suggest more than one pool section. For example there could be a forum for "Rules" related posts, one for "Play" for posts related to the play of the game (techniques, etc.), one for "Equipment" relating to cues, tables, etc,and finally one labeled "General" which could contain any other other pool-related posts (for example UPA/Open, WPBA, upcoming tournaments, etc.). <hr></blockquote>NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

Um, I mean, Hi Ross,

I seem to disagree with the suggestion of multiple sections. It was my greatest fear when the board changed over to the format it has now. I absolutely appreciate the pool rules questions right next to the equipment discussions right next to the tournament talk right next to the book reviews right next to the "How I did in league last night" right next to "Here's a story for you" right next to Barbara's nuts /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif . I believe it would be a big mistake to make separate sections for different topics. It would make it much more difficult to keep up with the board, and I believe the information would be much less useful and usable.

I believe we can be "self-policing" by, as suggested so many times, not responding to posts that you wish people hadn't written. There are definitely several posters that I will never respond to even if I have something to contribute. I even often start a reply, then back out of it realizing that no one else would care about this - everyone here doesn't have to know everything that pops into my mind... If more of us would pause before pressing the "DO IT" button, and ask ourselves if the post is contributing or if the post is useful or if the post is helping or if the post is just fluff, we might have fewer less-than-useful posts.

I don't think you should have to register here in order to post, and don't think that would solve any of the current problems. If others don't like anonymous posters, don't respond to them.

I don't like it when people say "just skip the post". I, like many others, read the posts in "flat" mode, not threaded. It is a bit quicker and more workable for dialup connections. Therefore, I am forced to see all the posts due to the way I view them.

We probably do not need a moderator. If the button at the bottom works and the ccb_admin cares, and we agree they should respond, maybe we can use the tattle-tale approach mentioned earlier.

Mr Ingrate
09-19-2002, 12:44 PM
Steve,

Rather than censor anyone, I would sooner see a limit put on the number of posts anyone could make in a given period.

True, this would require registration in order to post, but would still protect anonymity.

Would a limit of 20 posts/replies per week be a hardship for anyone?

Ross
09-19-2002, 01:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr> NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

Um, I mean, Hi Ross,

I believe it would be a big mistake to make separate sections for different topics. It would make it much more difficult to keep up with the board, and I believe the information would be much less useful and usable.
<hr></blockquote>
SPetty,
Why do you think it would be more difficult and less useful? If you are interested in non-pool discussions with your friends on the board you could access them with a single click. If you were interested in improving your technique only you would not have to wade through non-pool related posts. If you were interested in buying a new table you could quickly access the posts under "Equipment." This would seem to make finding posts interesting to you easier to find, not more difficult.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr>
I believe we can be "self-policing" by, as suggested so many times, not responding to posts that you wish people hadn't written. There are definitely several posters that I will never respond to even if I have something to contribute. I even often start a reply, then back out of it realizing that no one else would care about this - everyone here doesn't have to know everything that pops into my mind... If more of us would pause before pressing the "DO IT" button, and ask ourselves if the post is contributing or if the post is useful or if the post is helping or if the post is just fluff, we might have fewer less-than-useful posts.
<hr></blockquote>
This is true, but just asking people stop doesn't work. Some posters enjoy starting flame-wars to watch the fireworks. Why would they stop just because we ask them to?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr>
I don't like it when people say "just skip the post". I, like many others, read the posts in "flat" mode, not threaded. It is a bit quicker and more workable for dialup connections. Therefore, I am forced to see all the posts due to the way I view them.
<hr></blockquote>
Exactly. That is why, as long as this forum is non-moderated, we will continue to have to wade through flame wars to get to posts that are of more interest to us.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr>
We probably do not need a moderator. If the button at the bottom works and the ccb_admin cares, and we agree they should respond, maybe we can use the tattle-tale approach mentioned earlier.
<hr></blockquote>
Then the ccb_admin will be working as a moderator. The only difference is that the current system would be reactive and requires tattle-tales. Why not be proactive?
Are you worried that you will be stifled in saying what you want if this were a moderated forum? My experience has been that overzealous moderators get booted by the posting community pretty quickly. The moderators that remain only act when the post is patently offensive (for example, racial slurs) or when threads become long-name calling contests. Would you really miss such posts?

09-19-2002, 01:41 PM
Post deleted by ccboard_admin

09-19-2002, 01:42 PM
yes ive noticed
http://www.telus.net/d0wnt0wn/hi.gif

nAz
09-19-2002, 01:52 PM

rackmup
09-19-2002, 02:36 PM
Let me re-phrase it:

"To protect my children. Those that do not care about the content of the Internet that their children have access to can deal with the ramnifications later as they bail their troubled kids out of jail."

Is that better Tom?

Regards,

Ken

09-19-2002, 02:54 PM
s.petty, agree with you except that, based on my experience over the last few months; this board is moderated.

the "admin" has come in to warn of interruptions or explain stuff when asked. the few times i've had the need to e-mail them with the button on the bottom of this page, i've gotten very good responses. they seem to be effective on both the technical and user sides now. not at all the way it used to be.

i suspect that if we could figure out an honest...repeat honest....way to vote on changes needed we would probably get a good working response from admin.

i, for one, don't mind anon-posters or off-subject talk but i do think genuine haters and spammers need to be managed.

dan

TomBrooklyn
09-19-2002, 03:05 PM
Wow, thats even better. Who can argue with someone wanting to protect his children.

The board administrator should set up rules to protect your children.
And maybe all pool hall owners should throw out anyone who curses in there rooms so your kids will be protected there.
And maybe we should get volunteer speech police to monitor the speech on every street and every playground to report vulgarity. That's where most kids used to hear it first anyway in the old days.
Now of course, they learn vulgarity at home from their parents, TV and the movies.
As a matter of fact, since a lot of parents use curse words in front of their kids, the government pass a law to equip every home with microphones that will monitor the speech there.

With all this covered, parents won't have to worry about taking any responsibility for their own kids. Administrators, monitors, and the Government will make sure everyones kids are protected.

By the way, I don't like vulgarity, especially when used around women, double especially when used by women, and triple especially when used by mothers talking to their children, which I hear all the time.

I would prefer if no one used vulgarity. However, my preferences are not everyone's preferences, and if the cc-admin were to accomodate my preferences and everyone elses, this would become a very bland place indeed. But no worry for me. I'd go to RSB where there is absolutely no registration, no censorship, no one wants admisistrative censorship, the group handles their own problems, and people don't whine about it much. You know, the place where most of the top pool experts like to be.

stickman
09-19-2002, 03:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: houstondan:</font><hr>

i, for one, don't mind anon-posters or off-subject talk but i do think genuine haters and spammers need to be managed.

dan <hr></blockquote>

I don't mind anonomous posters that contribute something worthwhile, or even something less than worthwhile in my opinion. The only ones I have a problem with are the ones posting hateful, obscene, inflamatory, and abusive posts.

Far be it from me to want to deprive anyone of the ability to express themselves or offer an opinion, even if it differs from mine. But the best arguement I've seen so far for not allowing anonomous postings are the types of anonomous postings submitted recently by someone we all know and love. At least when there is a user name attached, I know which posts to ignore. Can you imagine what it would be like to sort through the posts, if all of us posted anonomously?

As you say though, if the genuine haters and spammers were under control, I don't think there would be any of this discussion. Hopefully, this is being attended to, and this debate will be abandoned.

I'm not sure that disallowing anonomous posts is the answer, but I can see why some folks might reason that it is. The true answer is disallowing the abusive posts.

NH_Steve
09-19-2002, 03:41 PM
Tom, I stand corrected, as some of what I was suggesting would indeed reign in unlimited 'free speech', but only a very, very little, and only specifically in the CCB forum, which afterall is hosted by a business -- Billiards Digest magazine. However, hardly would that constitute a compromise of our first amendment rights!

FWIW, the moderator role at USCHO is very low key, IMO, and there is certainly plenty of dynamic sparring there -- the lock threshhold is pretty high -- but threads do routinely get moved to other forums (where they are still accessible), and of course sometimes get 'locked' when they really digress. Of course, when they get 'locked', soon enough they start up again (generally the same predictable protaganists!) &amp; that is just a fact of BB life.

I even find a little dynamic argument can be fun to watch -- and even fun to participate in now &amp; then /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif . 'Course it does help to develop a 'thick skin' if you're going to jump in to the more aggressive debates...

But just because your thread gets moved in to the "Cafe" or "Parlor", or whatever it's called, isn't really limiting your free speech, is it? Personally, I don't hang out in the USCHO Cafe Forum much, but lots of regulars do -- some even seem to prefer that part of the site.

What I am suggesting is basically just to give BD simple tools to steer the direction of the CCB a little, so it's heading in a general direction compatible with their magazine, and their readership, that's all...

If they decide it already is, I can deal with that, too.

NH_Steve
09-19-2002, 03:50 PM
First, what I was suggesting hardly approaches "Gustapoism,Fascism,Dictatorialism" -- that's just a wee bit over the top, doncha think? Like I said elsewhere here, I would envision the role of the forum moderator to be very low key indeed -- almost invisible if done right.

And why not occasionally sweep up a little trash in your own house, and put specific stuff away where it belongs? Right now the webmaster doesn't really have the system in place to take care of that basic maintenance, and they could use it IMO, that's all...

NH_Steve
09-19-2002, 03:58 PM
Those who troll BB's get pretty good at drawing in their targets, and as hard as many find it to 'turn the other cheek' when attacked in real life, it's even harder in the safe confines of an internet BB -- that's the reality (wait -- maybe reality is the wrong word -- maybe virtual reality /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif ?).

Not responding is a nice idea, but can only go so far -- that's why BD needs to give themselves a few housekeeping tools, IMHO.

NH_Steve
09-19-2002, 04:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: stickman:</font><hr>
I don't mind anonomous posters that contribute something worthwhile, or even something less than worthwhile in my opinion. The only ones I have a problem with are the ones posting hateful, obscene, inflamatory, and abusive posts.

Far be it from me to want to deprive anyone of the ability to express themselves or offer an opinion, even if it differs from mine. But the best arguement I've seen so far for not allowing anonomous postings are the types of anonomous postings submitted recently by someone we all know and love. At least when there is a user name attached, I know which posts to ignore. Can you imagine what it would be like to sort through the posts, if all of us posted anonomously?

As you say though, if the genuine haters and spammers were under control, I don't think there would be any of this discussion. Hopefully, this is being attended to, and this debate will be abandoned.

I'm not sure that disallowing anonomous posts is the answer, but I can see why some folks might reason that it is. The true answer is disallowing the abusive posts. <hr></blockquote>I agree completely. That's why I prefer the 'report this post to the moderator' link instead of just disallowing anonyposters -- some of them have lots to offer! Adding the 'Cafe' or 'Parlor' just gives the moderator another house cleaning tool, that's all...

Ludba
09-19-2002, 06:04 PM
I just started posting here about week or two ago, and I'm kinda shocked at the violent reaction towards having a forum moderator and various discussion areas.

I think the real problem is not moderation or limits on free speech or any of that, but rather a lot of bad blood on this site that has been getting worse and worse for a long time and is spilling out over every discussion like that elevator scene in the Shining, making it impossible to have any kind of sustained intelligent discussion. Situations like these REQUIRE leadership, otherwise you get what you have on this board: pointless polarized debates, my team/your team affiliations, and hurt feelings.

You as an individual can ignore flamers all you want, and maybe they'll go away or maybe they won't. But the issue here is not about individuals, it's about a community that everyone here is a part of. You have the responsibility to each other and yourself of making decisions to improve the quality of community that everybody enjoys. In this case as in most cases, that requires some kind of clear and legitimate leadership that protects the needs of the ENTIRE community.

In this case, some of those needs are: 1) a place where posters can discuss pool-related subjects; 2) a place where posters can feel comfortable talking about anything; and 3) the ability to feel safe to post messages without fear of being attacked personally.

I post on a movie discussion forum that has a moderator, is divided into several different topic areas, and has a non-film discussion area. It's the best forum I've ever seen. In fact I was surprised when I came over here and found that CCB handled the situation differently. Maybe that setup won't work for this board, but it certainly is not the 1930's Germany that it is being portrayed as. I think everyone here has been arguing so long that everyone is settled into their own ideological camps, seeing their side as completely right and the other side as completely wrong. No one appears willing to budge even an inch to solve what appears to me (a relative outsider) to be a substantial problem.

NH_Steve
09-19-2002, 06:39 PM
Well put.

Here's the link to the webmasters that provide the BB for USCHO: http://www.vbulletin.com/

TomBrooklyn
09-19-2002, 06:46 PM
Quote: Ludba:
I just started posting here about week or two ago, and I'm kinda shocked. The real problem on this site is a lot of bad blood that has been getting worse and worse for a long time.

The issue here is about a community that everyone is a part of. This case requires clear and legitimate leadership that protects the needs of the ENTIRE community.<hr></blockquote>I'm not only shocked, I'm flabbergasted that someone who has been here a week presents himself as qualified to evaluate what has been going on here for a long time.

Are you running for office?

NH_Steve
09-19-2002, 07:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> I'm not only shocked, I'm flabbergasted that someone who has been here a week presents himself as qualified to evaluate what has been going on here for a long time.

Are you running for office? <hr></blockquote>Tom, did you miss the point completely that he was expressing the view of the first impression of a newcomer, and that he was comparing CCB to other BB's that he is familiar with? And is this how a CCB regular ('scuse me, a CCB Addict) greets a newcomer who posts a thoughtful, well written post?

You've illustrated fairly explicitly his observation of the sense of bad blood here, thank you very much /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif !

Ludba
09-19-2002, 07:11 PM
I had a feeling I'd get that response.

Tom, I'm not suggesting I'm an authority; I'm just posting my opinion as an outsider looking in. You're all very close to the problem. I am not. It just SEEMS TO ME like it has been going on for a while. Maybe it has; maybe it hasn't. I don't know.

If it has been going on for a long time, then I am correct and you have nothing to argue with (unless there was some other part of my post you can discredit). If it has been going on for a short time, then that makes the virulent hate spewed on these topics all the more shocking.

Ludba
09-19-2002, 07:15 PM
Oh, I didn't see the question at the end. No, I am not running for any office, especially not a leadership position in this forum. If you skewer fellow posters, just think what you'll do to someone trying to manage this forum.

Rod
09-19-2002, 07:46 PM
Ludba,
It's been going on for a long time and all it takes a bad apple or two to get people fighting with each other. It calms down for a while then something happens again. This forum needs a moderator and yes limits on free speech. By that I mean it does not give anyone the right to use vulgar or profane language and/or attack someone in the process.

Hopefully in the future people will hit the admin link and report them instead of arguing. You can't argue with something that is incapable of comprehension. Some actually think they can make this person understand and get very frustrated and mad in the process. Why bother they have as much chance doing that as asking a rock roll over.

TomBrooklyn
09-19-2002, 08:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: NH_Steve:</font><hr>Tom, did you miss the point completely that he was expressing the view of the first impression of a newcomer <hr></blockquote>No Steve, I didn't miss the point, and my reading comprehension is excellent. His point was quite clear. He was opining on something he knows, and even admits he knows little about.

I will give his opinion all the weight I think it deserves.

Obviously you have no problem accepting his opinion and endorsing his advice because it matches your position.

Tom

Troy
09-19-2002, 08:12 PM
With any luck and some self-control, this will NOT be the start of yet another flame war.
This time between Ludba and TomBrooklyn.

Troy...~~~ Tires quickly of the childishness

rackmup
09-19-2002, 08:21 PM
Wow Tom! What happened to you? Did you recently lose your jump cue? If so, I think I know where it is...you need to watch where you sit.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr>And maybe all pool hall owners should throw out anyone who curses in there rooms so your kids will be protected there.<hr></blockquote>

I don't take my children to the pool hall so they won't pick up anything there...

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr>And maybe we should get volunteer speech police to monitor the speech on every street and every playground to report vulgarity.<hr></blockquote>

We don't need that. We have (at least at my children's school) responsible ADULTS that help with keeping kids in line with what is proper and what isn't.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr>Now of course, they learn vulgarity at home from their parents, TV and the movies.<hr></blockquote>

Not from this parent, not in my home and not from the shows my children choose to watch.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr>I'd go to RSB where there is absolutely no registration, no censorship, no one wants admisistrative censorship, the group handles their own problems, and people don't whine about it much. You know, the place where most of the top pool experts like to be.<hr></blockquote>

That might be a good idea (at least until you retrieve that misplaced jump cue.)

Regards,

Ken (not asking Tom to give up his right to freedom of speech, just to recognize this is not the forum for the trash.)

TomBrooklyn
09-19-2002, 08:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Ludba:</font><hr> If it has been going on for a long time, then I am correct and you have nothing to argue with.<hr></blockquote>Of course it has been going on a long time, at least for the two years I've been reading this forum. I suspect it went on before I got here, similar to your suspicion. My point was that you didn't know the particulars.

Flares ups occur on every unmoderated forum. Always have, always will.

My points are simply this:

1. The board got through it fine before, it will get through it fine again.

2. Some point out that a number of long time posters don't post much anymore. They are seeking a remedy to change that. The solution originally posed in this thread is to make the board less like it used to be. I am unconvinced that making it less like it used to be will have the effect of making the people that used to come here more likely to come here. It may make them less likely to come. Another original premise of the thread was made that many of the old timers now post more at RSB, however the changes proposed would make this board less like RSB than it is now. I do not see how that is supposed to achieve the desired effect.

This is the real situation. Things change. People change. People move on. The board changed a lot when it went to the new format. A lot of the old timers didn't like it. There are a lot of new people here. The personality of the board is just different than it used to be. The way the majority of the posters think things should be done is different than it used to be.

If more change is in the air, so be it. I'm not going to get bent out of shape about it. I am just unconvinced that going to an all registered, moderated forum is going to make more pool related posts happen or make the old time posters come back more frequently.

That kind of format is virtually indispensable on large forums. I belong to some of those. However, I don't think this forum is big enough to warrant it, and I think it might make it less interesting. But I could be wrong, who knows?

Ludba
09-19-2002, 09:04 PM
Tom, I appreciate your disagreement with my post. I just wish you directed your attacks at the argument instead of me, the arguer. Because you haven't given my post any consideration. You have discredited my argument because you have placed me as the opposition, when I don't have a party affiliation.

My post DOES suggest that the position that you disfavor is a valid one for another BB, but I also said that maybe it's not right for CCB. I don't know what is right for CCB, but I do know that personal animosity is not going to create any solution to a problem.

Do you at least agree that there is a problem at this board (even if we disagree as to what the problem is)?

Ludba
09-19-2002, 09:18 PM
I didn't see this before I posted last.

That's a valid argument. I'm not looking to bring back any previous posters. I'm interested in improving the quality of the board. You don't think there's anything wrong with it. That's fair enough.

Ludba
09-19-2002, 09:54 PM
By the way, what are RSB and AZ? I assume they are billiards discussion forums. Can someone post the web addresses?

Thanks

Troy
09-19-2002, 10:06 PM
AZ can be found at www.azbilliards.com (http://www.azbilliards.com) and is a great place for news, tournament brackets, etc. I can't help youu with RSB 'cuz I don't like the format and don't go there.

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Ludba:</font><hr> By the way, what are RSB and AZ? I assume they are billiards discussion forums. Can someone post the web addresses?

Thanks <hr></blockquote>

TomBrooklyn
09-19-2002, 10:38 PM
Quote: Ludba:
I'm interested in improving the quality of the board. You don't think there's anything wrong with it. That's fair enough. <hr></blockquote>I think there’s something wrong with this board sometimes. I just think that many others are finding scapegoats to explain what’s wrong with it. There are some mainstream registered posters here that have taken some real cheap, but not so blatant shots at others. Sometimes the lack of respect is incredible. However, while a moderated forum will probably eliminate the blatant obnoxious posts that pop up from time to time, it probably won't eliminate the more subtle ones that are made by more the more "mainstream" posters that hurt even more.

So I just think people are barking up the wrong tree. Boards like this have a way of self-correcting. One reaps what one sows. The posters that cause problems are inevitably dealt with one way or another, sooner or later. Not only the big problems, the little problems too. People get hints and figure it out eventually. It works out.

I don't feel that I need a moderator to help me figure out who is a problem and how to deal with them. If I have to say something to someone, I can usually find a way to say it that doesn't inflame the issue. Other times, my way of handling a belligerent poster is to stay the hell away from them. That means I don't post to their thread telling others to ignore them. I really ignore them. Posting in their thread to say "ignore this person" is not ignoring them, and is a great way to start a freedom of speech debate to create a bigger circus atmosphere. To tell you the truth, I laugh at a lot of the stuff because people bring it on themselves most of the time.

Many others chose to confront some of these posters. They often wind up in a pissing contest where they get wet. I just don't have much sympathy for someone that wrestles with a pig and then complains they got dirty. One of the reasons that I have very few problems with belligerent posters is that I don't go near them. I don't wrestle with pigs, and I don't need a moderator to tell me that either.

Attacking a person instead of arguing against what they said is another sure-fire way of starting a flame war. I started treading on that ground with you earlier. Notice I caught myself before I became the main attraction in a three ring circus. Again, I'd rather do it myself than have a moderator shut me down. If I screw up, I'll take what's coming to me and learn from it.

Some others may not feel as capable of handling situations on their own, or just can't resist the urge to wrestle and therefore need a moderator to protect them not only from other posters, but from themselves. =TB=

Ludba
09-20-2002, 03:51 AM
Very insightful.

NH_Steve
09-20-2002, 05:32 AM
Tom, I mentioned RSB as a wake-up call -- a reminder of the fact that there is competition out there -- not as a format that the Billiards Digest should emulate for the CCB. On the contrary, the main point I was making was that without setting the CCB up with basic house keeping tools, the CCB becomes a more free-wheeling mess -- and is that the message &amp; direction they want to associate with their magazine?

NH_Steve
09-20-2002, 06:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: AzHousePro:</font><hr> You can also post on the forums at AzB and include the code for the table layout in the bottom box on the post to have the table show right there in your message.

Mike <hr></blockquote>That's a great idea, and one that the CCB might want to look at. At least having a link that opens WEI in a separate window to facilitate reading &amp; writing diagrammed posts would make it easier to read &amp; write WEI illustrations.

A really nice feature would be a special tool for handling &amp; coding WEI, that actually created a CCB database of WEI diagrams that was sortable &amp; searchable -- hint, hint, hint.

NH_Steve
09-20-2002, 06:11 AM
This works for me for RSB...
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;safe=off&amp;num=30&amp;q=group:rec.sport .billiard

Warren_Lushia
09-20-2002, 06:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr>
2) You're correct that RSB has a lot of pool info and knowledgeable posters. They also have more posters than this board. They always have. And it was also around long before this forum or the world wide web even existed. And they used to come here sometimes. And they still do, when there is something here that interests them. Threads like this don't interest them.

3) However, RSB utilizes none of your suggestions and could not implement them even if they wanted to. Therefore, these ideas would make it less likely to attract RSBers, not more.

That being said, I hardly ever go to RSB. I like it here more. It is a smaller group and more socially inclined than RSB. It always has been. And I have rarely been disappointed in getting an answer to a pool related question or generating discussion on a pool related topic here.

4) If some of the more knowledgeable pool experts don't come here as much as they used to, it's not because of trolls or obnoxious posts, they have more of them there than here. It is because the trolls get lots of attention here. There is much whining and crying and gnashing of teeth. Lots of folks love to talk to the trolls, then write threads to talk about the trolls. It is one of the favorite topics here.

5) On RSB trolls are ignored, or blasted and then ignored, and then they move on quickly; precisely because there is no administrator who can do a thing about it. They have learned by necessity to be big boys and girls who know how to handle the problem.
<hr></blockquote>

hi tom,

just a few things: RSB is not older than the WWW. RSB came around about 1996 and ASP around 1994, the WWW predates both of them. usenet has certainly been around much longer if that is what you meant.

the CCB has no reason to try and become like RSB. the CCB has a totally different flavor. if you remember my "RSB can give the CCB the 5 and the breaks" post it was a joke, but there was some hidden truths there too. this is more of a friendly atmosphere and RSB can be cut throat, even though the topics are generally much more on topic. RSB can be kind of stale at times. much better for serious pool discussion though.

and don't forget, RSB has ASP -- the users of both follow the guidelines which are not even written, which is RSB is for pool talk only, while ASP you can talk about anything you want even though everyone is a poolplayer. it works out very well.

part of the reason RSB can self moderate is several fold: 1) you can not post anonymously. you don't have to use your real name, but the IP is logged as well as a whole tracer route. this is not "completely" true as skilled spammers can get around this, but it takes time and effort so not many people do it. unfortunately, the easiest way is to use AOL, which can not be traced. and AOL likes this as it helps them make money because people know this! that is why you see almost all spam or inflammitory comments on usenet come from either AOL or an anonymous reserver designed specifically to allow CRAP posts. (unfortunately, alot of quality posters on the CCB use AOL, only a few quality posters on RSB use AOL, i hope AOL revises its policies but don't count on it as i think that where they make their bucks).

2) in usenet you have the option of using a kill file to not view certain users posts. this is very frustrating for people who try to stir trouble, because its not that their posts are ignored, it is that many people do not even see them!! i don't, nor have i ever used a killfile, but just there existance deters alot of troublemakers. besides the possibility of being identified of course!

3) spam is not tolerated. it is generally not even replied to, plus the full tracer route is there to report to their ISP.

4) most newreaders have either options or simply do not allow threads to jump to the top of a page from the latest reply. so a troll can't make sure their troll continues to be read.

their are many many other reasons the usenet system works, not the least of which is sites like the CCB provide a much easier route for causing trouble! the latest example of them not showing the IP of the poster just made it a field day for these guys and it WILL get worse!! guaranteed!! i have known for years and years an AOL IP means nothing, but because a few people mistakely thought they could coorelate an identical ip with being the same poster, they removed it!!! ah, hello, i could tell you 5 years ago an AOL IP means nothing! it is essentially the only IP that means nothing (or at least the one used 99% of the time by people who know how to avoid detection). unfortunately, a lot of high quality posters/people also use AOL to post, or else it would be easy to ignore.

and the silly people who think having their IP address posted is an invasion of privacy or an invasion of free speech.....your braindead. if you make phone calls harrassing people, the calls can be legally traced. if you are in a giant gathering and start screaming "fire fire fire" and people get trampled to death you can be charged. ok, these are extreme examples, but it proves the point that the line is not simply drawn that you can say anything, anywhere, at any time you want. the founding father's were not talking about the BD CCB when they were talking about the freedom of speech.

and if you REALLY think posts can not be traced to an individual computer, then why don't you test it and see? trust me, you'll lose if the stakes are high enough! even with AOL!!

and the ONLY thing worse than an unmoderated forum, or a fully moderated forum is a PARTIALLY moderated forum. and that is EXACTLY what this is!! certain posters have more power cause they like to tell on the posters they don't like. the fact that ANYONE knew downtown's account had been deleted besides the ccb_admin REEKS of inproprioty. i don't disagree with him being deleted, because he is a world class [censored], but why did certain users know firsthand? and exactly why was he deleted and not the many others who exhibit the same behavior? was it the stature of those that complained? the numbers of complaints? what is it?! i suspect we won't get a straight answer on this.

by removing the IP and deleting certain users (and letting certain others know) i think i'm getting a clear message that the CCB is trying to let you think you are "more free" while actually trying to give the users "less control". and y'all are falling for it. oh well, i always have RSB and ASP!!

warren

Vagabond
09-20-2002, 06:54 AM
Howdy Mr.ludba,
I read ,with interest,your posts debating with Tom Brooklyn.To my mind,u both are very insightfull.In my opinion,the main problem here is nothing but extension (representative) of the problems of our society in general-- u have group of people who are judgemental and want to controll of other humans.U have another group of people who are saying`gone is the past,we are not going to put up with that any more`.In the process of protestation this group keeps giving `shocks`to that self righteous and controlling group.Some times the voltage of the shocks become unbearable.It is that simple.wellcome to CCB. Tom pointed out that it will correct itself without a moderator and I believe the same.so u do not have to leave.Cheers
Vagabond

bluewolf
09-20-2002, 07:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: NH_Steve:</font><hr> A quick breeze through the current threads of the CCB shows a whole lot of poor taste trash talk, quite a few no-pool-related posts &amp; replies, and generally a decline in quality of pool related information in recent months, IMHO. And with plenty of competition for pool related internet readership (RSB, AZ, etc), it's time for Billiards Digest to get a grip on their site if they want to maintain a BB that reflects well on their fine magazine -- not the National Enquirer!

They should promptly excercise at least three or four of these options:

1) Locking down offensive threads -- This is standard practice on the NPR BB I regularly visit (<a target="_blank" href=http://www.uscho.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&amp;forumid=4>US College Hockey Online</a> if you would like to check it out.) When posts digress to incessant name-calling &amp; other drivel (as they inevitably often do -- that's a fact of life), they lock the thread. Really bad stuff, like racial slurs, get deleted by the 'moderator'. Every post has a little link in the corner "report this post to the moderator" -- if you feel like being a snitch /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif .

2) Split the CCB forum into at least two -- make the current CCB just for pool &amp; billiards, and create a CCB 'Cafe' for NPR topics &amp; chit chat. The Cafe at USCHO is pretty popular, and definitely helps elevate the quality of the main div 1 college hockey site -- by subtraction!

3) Get a grip on 'anonymous' posters -- Maybe by not allowing them, or maybe the problem would be largely solved simply by upgrading the role of the 'moderator' as I suggested above. I for one would have no problem reporting an anonymous post in poor taste, whereas I'm a bit more reluctant to snitch on a regular who has just got a little bit carried away.

4) Go ahead &amp; suspend a registered user for a few weeks if they repeatedly abuse the forum. I know it's no big deal to just reregister under another email address, but regular posters do get attached to their handles &amp; some like their post counts, too. It's not much, but it would help set the tone that BD wants.

None of these changes would limit 'free speech', IMO, but they would go a long ways towards getting a grip on the direction of the CCB. A quick visit to RSB might be a wake-up call -- they are clearly still getting some of the quality, knowledgeable posters that have lamentably been a bit absent from the CCB lately.

*Peace* <hr></blockquote>

locking down offensive threads might be possible and reporting offenders is okay but the moderator has be be willing to take action.i think this was tried recently,but no action was taken.

having two different forums sounds good.i have seen this suggested in other email forum groups but the consensus was usually to leave it like it is. i would just throw that out and see how the majority feel about this.

when you get into suspending certain people, i have seen this done on other lists too.the debate is between a moderated list,where the moderators have certain powers and between and between an unmoderated one.on most of the moderator lists i have been on, the moderators ended up playing favorites and it ended up being a mess.some got kicked off for minor infractions, while some more popular people got tolerated for more serious infractions.i have only seen it done successfully a couple of times and all the other times,good people,lots of them left the list.

imo for this to work,you need a panel of people,5 or more, to be making these kind of decisions,not just one moderator.and when you go this route, there is little grey anymore.it is black and white.you breadk a rule, you get kicked off and everything is censored to the max.

just a few things to think about. i have been and continue to be on a lot of email lists for about 7 years.what the ccb forum is currently going through, i have seen happen on virtually every list i have been on.when the forum/list is first formed and the membership is small, there is an intimacy and support and comraderie.once the list gets to a certain size,all kinds of other dynamics inter in.the bigger it gets,cliques develop which often have flame wars and the more well known the forum becomes, the more 'wild cards' /mentally unstable/disrespectful and insulting members hop on and this creates a chaotic situation.

i am not sure of the solution but when a less desirable person is constantly attacking or when regulars jump in the group loses its primary purpose.it either degenerates into a flame group or you have strict moderators with strict censorship.neither one of these works very well, sadly.

Laura

bluewolf
09-20-2002, 07:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: NH_Steve:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;Tom, did you miss the point completely that he was expressing the view of the first impression of a newcomer &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;No Steve, I didn't miss the point, and my reading comprehension is excellent. His point was quite clear. He was opining on something he knows, and even admits he knows little about.

I will give his opinion all the weight I think it deserves.

Obviously you have no problem accepting his opinion and endorsing his advice because it matches your position.

Tom <hr></blockquote>

can you guys share ideas in a respectful way without squabbling? sqabbling will do nothing to help the situation here

Laura

bluewolf
09-20-2002, 07:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Ross:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; 2. We need different forums within CCB.

Then there needs to be one or more pool-related only sections. Any non-pool related posts are moved to the "The Billiard Parlor." I would suggest more than one pool section. For example there could be a forum for "Rules" related posts, one for "Play" for posts related to the play of the game (techniques, etc.), one for "Equipment" relating to cues, tables, etc,and finally one labeled "General" which could contain any other other pool-related posts (for example UPA/Open, WPBA, upcoming tournaments, etc.). &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

Um, I mean, Hi Ross,

I seem to disagree with the suggestion of multiple sections. It was my greatest fear when the board changed over to the format it has now. I absolutely appreciate the pool rules questions right next to the equipment discussions right next to the tournament talk right next to the book reviews right next to the "How I did in league last night" right next to "Here's a story for you" right next to Barbara's nuts /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif . I believe it would be a big mistake to make separate sections for different topics. It would make it much more difficult to keep up with the board, and I believe the information would be much less useful and usable.

I believe we can be "self-policing" by, as suggested so many times, not responding to posts that you wish people hadn't written. There are definitely several posters that I will never respond to even if I have something to contribute. I even often start a reply, then back out of it realizing that no one else would care about this - everyone here doesn't have to know everything that pops into my mind... If more of us would pause before pressing the "DO IT" button, and ask ourselves if the post is contributing or if the post is useful or if the post is helping or if the post is just fluff, we might have fewer less-than-useful posts.

I don't think you should have to register here in order to post, and don't think that would solve any of the current problems. If others don't like anonymous posters, don't respond to them.

I don't like it when people say "just skip the post". I, like many others, read the posts in "flat" mode, not threaded. It is a bit quicker and more workable for dialup connections. Therefore, I am forced to see all the posts due to the way I view them.

We probably do not need a moderator. If the button at the bottom works and the ccb_admin cares, and we agree they should respond, maybe we can use the tattle-tale approach mentioned earlier.
<hr></blockquote>

i agree with most of what susan has said here.i think a check box for pr vs npr might also be useful.or as some do a more concerted effort to put NPR in subj line.

Laura

Wally_in_Cincy
09-20-2002, 07:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Warren_Lushia:</font><hr> i don't disagree with him being deleted, because he is a world class [censored], but why did certain users know firsthand? and exactly why was he deleted and not the many others who exhibit the same behavior? <hr></blockquote>


Warren,

I'm having trouble trying to think of anybody else who has exhibited anti-social behavior to that degree /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif.

09-20-2002, 08:06 AM
You think you need five people to baby-sit this group so they can conduct themselves in a civil manor? In one of your very first posts you said how much you loved flaming and would not stop because it was so much fun. You are one of the primary problems here and now want to offer solutions to what is wrong with everybody else. Are you really that dense? I would point to you as the beginning to the current problems. The problem Scott had recently, is due to you and comments you made. Scott never called himself anything more then what he is, and is himself a humble guy. You thrust him into the middle of a controversy with your comments and it had nothing to do with anything he ever said. Scott never claimed to be the worlds best player. You made him look like a fool, and if he hasn't said anything to you about it, it is because he is to nice.

09-20-2002, 08:11 AM
Why don't you mind your own business. I am sure they are capable of dealing with each other without you butting in.

09-20-2002, 08:35 AM
I agree! She's done it to a list of others here too. It's amazing how someone can be THAT oblivious of their own actions.

TomBrooklyn
09-20-2002, 08:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Warren_Lushia:</font><hr> causing trouble! not showing the IP of the poster just made it a field day for these guys and it WILL get worse!! <hr></blockquote>I didn't particularly care for IP addys being displayed, but after rethinking it I agree it might have helped disuade some posters from becoming disruptive under the cover of anonymity. On usenet, IPs are not displayed but they can be easily retrieved. =TB=

bluewolf
09-20-2002, 10:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> You think you need five people to baby-sit this group so they can conduct themselves in a civil manor? In one of your very first posts you said how much you loved flaming and would not stop because it was so much fun. You are one of the primary problems here and now want to offer solutions to what is wrong with everybody else. Are you really that dense? I would point to you as the beginning to the current problems. The problem Scott had recently, is due to you and comments you made. Scott never called himself anything more then what he is, and is himself a humble guy. You thrust him into the middle of a controversy with your comments and it had nothing to do with anything he ever said. Scott never claimed to be the worlds best player. You made him look like a fool, and if he hasn't said anything to you about it, it is because he is to nice. <hr></blockquote>

I would protect the right of people to post anonymously. I see some good ideas and threads brought up by anonymous posters. And due to some who is sensitive positions in the pool world, this gives them a way to express their insight.

When an anon posts an insulting attack directed at me, I do find it somewhat frustrating. While I may not want to go back and forth with them on this forum,it would be nice to be able to email the person in private and see if we can come to some kind of understanding or partial understanding. others have told me just to ignore these personal attacks by anons, but honestly every personal flame hurts and i would be dishonest if i did not admit this.since i have flamed others, i regret this because i know how i feel when that happens to me and i have been evil to do the same thing to somebody else.

when i first got on this list and said 'i was the queen of flaming',to set the record straight that was a poor choice of words.before this forum i have never been in flames. i have bantared. also i think i was being somewhat of a wimp and saying that as a defensive posture to keep people from flaming me.

anyway i do find it somewhat frustrating when an anon posts a personal nasty about me and there is no way to respond to them without taking up more space on this forum.

also if anon is right and my comment that scott could beat any pro contributed to the flames he got i am very sorry. i had just had my lesson with scott, was very impressed with him so i think was 'starry eyed' and perhaps put scott on a pedastle, not thinking it might vause him difficulty as that was not my intention.

sorry for digressing off topic.

Laura

09-21-2002, 01:18 AM
Is it not true that you are the Flame Queen?
Is it not true that you are an expert in the martial arts?
Is it not true that you are trained in psycological manipulation?
Is it not true that you are a handgun expert?
Is it not true that you are a genius by IQ test?
Is it not true that you are the trainer of wolf-dogs for no known reason?
Is it not true that there is no record of your identity prior to 1995?

Is it not true that you attempted to usurp the role of Queen of The Board?

Is it not true?
ISN'T THAT ALL TRUE?

Who are you?

Who are you working for?

SJ

Warren_Lushia
09-21-2002, 03:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Warren_Lushia:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; causing trouble! not showing the IP of the poster just made it a field day for these guys and it WILL get worse!! &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;I didn't particularly care for IP addys being displayed, but after rethinking it I agree it might have helped disuade some posters from becoming disruptive under the cover of anonymity. On usenet, IPs are not displayed but they can be easily retrieved. =TB= <hr></blockquote>

tom i was gonna leave this alone cause it has run its course, but as i check in now its already at the top, so my reply won't affect that /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

i dunno what newsreader you are using, but the one i use does display IP's without any sort of "retrieving". of course it is an option you can set to customize your viewing. but there is no "retrieving". are you using google or something? again i state google is not a newsreader but an archive, and you are stuck with the google format. the google format sucks as a newsreader but the service and archiving rule!! but it is horrible for a daily newsreader especially if you are posting! it makes me mad cause alot of people who have tried out google to see RSB are not seeing the real RSB experience. its an archive updated a few times a day not a real time forum or newsreader!

later, warren..

bluewolf
09-21-2002, 05:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SlimJim:</font><hr> Is it not true that you are the Flame Queen?
Is it not true that you are an expert in the martial arts?
Is it not true that you are trained in psycological manipulation?
Is it not true that you are a handgun expert?
Is it not true that you are a genius by IQ test?
Is it not true that you are the trainer of wolf-dogs for no known reason?
Is it not true that there is no record of your identity prior to 1995?

Is it not true that you attempted to usurp the role of Queen of The Board?

Is it not true?
ISN'T THAT ALL TRUE?

Who are you?

Who are you working for?

SJ <hr></blockquote>

I am not queen of anything.
I have a brownbelt in karate, not a black, so therefore am not an expert.

I am trained to evaluate children,ages 2-21. many without degrees are better in psychological manipulation than I.

I own a handgun but am not an expert.In fact, it isnt loaded due to children frquenting my house and the bullets are hidden separate from the gun.

as far as the iq thing, depends on what test and what definition of genius.

i had a wolf-dog i took in as a rescue at age 6.he died at age 7 from a bad cancer. i do some volunteer very basic training of other dogs. i do not train wolf dogs. i tried to train mine but mostly just had to accept him for what he was.

I dont know about the identity question.I was born in 1952 and that is on my birth certificate.

i did not know there was such a role as 'queen of the board' so dont know what you are talking about there.

Who am I? Laura living in md.
Traditionally a school psychologist,currently looking for another position in dc,va,md suburbs.

any other insulting posts i am going to not respond because this is silly stuff to be taking up forum space with.in expectation of an insult to that statement, i cannot change the past, only try to do things better in the future.

bw

CarolNYC
09-21-2002, 06:26 AM
Hey there,
Wow, there are some pretty cool ideas here! The "notify post&amp;lock it" is similar to the "breaking terms of service-notify aol!"Most of us here have met,exchange e-mails,phone calls and have a genuine respect for eachother, so I say we take it upon ourselves to watch over eachother and know when a thread is going in the wrong direction-and then we hit the "notify" button!We know who the stabbers,jabbers and blabbers are and we can more or less ignore them,but when a few of them get together and continue on and on and on,thats when it becomes ridiculous and the thread should be stopped!Its great to see everyone pooling together-hey "pool"ing,ha ha,I like your ideas and hope some of them come into "play!"
Have a good day!
Carol

Tom_In_Cincy
09-21-2002, 10:42 AM
Carol,
I would love to have the ability to "bounce" someone out of the group for certain periods of time.. like 24 hours, a week or "forever", but, ( and this is a big BUT ) if its not me.. doing the "bouncing" I am against it.. LOL

CarolNYC
09-21-2002, 03:31 PM
Hey Tom,
Well then, I nominate you as our new "bouncer" ha ha ha-go gettum Tom!
You stay well!:)
Carol~"east coast-I know your shaking right,
down south,I know your bouncing right,
west coast,I know your walking right,
midwest,I see you swinging right!"Nellyville

bluewolf
09-21-2002, 04:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Warren_Lushia:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: TomBrooklyn:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Warren_Lushia:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; causing trouble! not showing the IP of the poster just made it a field day for these guys and it WILL get worse!! &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;I didn't particularly care for IP addys being displayed, but after rethinking it I agree it might have helped disuade some posters from becoming disruptive under the cover of anonymity. On usenet, IPs are not displayed but they can be easily retrieved. =TB= &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

tom i was gonna leave this alone cause it has run its course, but as i check in now its already at the top, so my reply won't affect that /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

i dunno what newsreader you are using, but the one i use does display IP's without any sort of "retrieving". of course it is an option you can set to customize your viewing. but there is no "retrieving". are you using google or something? again i state google is not a newsreader but an archive, and you are stuck with the google format. the google format sucks as a newsreader but the service and archiving rule!! but it is horrible for a daily newsreader especially if you are posting! it makes me mad cause alot of people who have tried out google to see RSB are not seeing the real RSB experience. its an archive updated a few times a day not a real time forum or newsreader!

later, warren.. <hr></blockquote>

i use ie 6.o go to www.billiardsdigest.com (http://www.billiardsdigest.com) and click on discussion forum.i have done it this way same computer same isp every time. the ips used to show under the person's name and as of 2-3 days ago, they are gone.

warren, are you still seeing the ips.if you are, what are you using that you can see them and many of us dont. do i have on goggles too???? ROFL maybe we all have goggles,my brand is speedo.whats yours lol

bw

heater451
09-22-2002, 02:03 PM
It's not really a database, but there is a webpage out there, with shots submitted. The concept could be 'grown' into something.

I stumbled across the site by accident, and don't remember where/what it was, but I recall that there was a shot submitted by Fred (Agnir), so he might remember the URL. (Fred?)


========================

Tom_In_Cincy
09-22-2002, 02:36 PM
Heater.. I think this is what you are looking for...


http://www.omniscium.com/artsy/ShotArchive/ShowShots.asp