PDA

View Full Version : What if?



LWW
08-29-2011, 10:40 AM
Hitler hadn't been an idiot?

One of the great mysteries of history to me, being a history buff, is how in Hades did Hitler manage to pull off snatching defeat from the jaws of victory?

Even after deciding to fight a 3 front war ... the Nazi technology was there to deal the allies a fatal blow.

We should all be thankful he was a madman.

http://www.luft46.com/horten/3bho18a.jpg

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In 1944 the RLM issued a requirement for an aircraft with a range of 11000 km (6835 miles) and a bomb load of 4000 kg (8818 lbs). This bomber was to be able to fly from Germany to New York City and back without refueling. Five of Germany's top aircraft companies had submitted designs, but none of them met the range requirements for this Amerika Bomber. Their proposals were redesigned and resubmitted at the second competition, but nothing had changed. The Hortens were not invited to submit a proposal because it was thought that they were only interested in fighter aircraft.

After the Hortens learned of these design failures, they the went about designing the XVIII A Amerika Bomber. During the Christmas 1944 holidays, Reimar and Walter Horten worked on the design specifications for their all-wing bomber. They drew up a rough draft and worked on weight calculations, allowing for fuel, crew, armaments, landing gear and bomb load. Ten variations were eventually worked out, each using a different number of existing turbojets. Several of the designs were to be powered by four or six Heinkel-Hirth He S 011jet engines, and several of the others were designed around eight BMW 003A or eight Junker Jumo 004B turbojets.

The version that the Hortens thought would work best would utilize six Jumo 004B turbojets, which were buried in the fuselage and exausted over the rear of the aircraft. They were fed by air intakes located in the wing's leading edge. To save weight they thought of using a landing gear that could be jettisoned immediately after takeoff (with the additional help of rocket boosters) and landing on some kind of skid. The Ho XVIII A was to be built mainly of wood and held together with a special carbon based glue. As a result,<span style='font-size: 11pt'> the huge flying wing should go largely undetected by radar. </span>

The Hortens were told to make a presentation for their Amerika Bomber design on Febuary 25, 1945 in Berlin. The meeting was attended by representatives of the five aircraft companies who originally submitted ideas for the competition. No one challenged their assertion that their flying wing bomber could get the job done. A few days later the Hortens were told to report to Reichsmarshall Göring, who wanted to talk to the brothers personally about their proposed Amerika Bomber. There they were told that they were to work with the Junkers company in building the aircraft.

Several days later Reimar and Walter Horten met with the Junkers engineers, who had also invited some Messerschmitt engineers. Suddenly it seemed that the Horten's design was to be worked on by committee. The Junkers and Messerschmitt engineers were unwilling to go with the design that the Hortens presented several days earlier. Instead, the committee wanted to place a huge vertical fin and rudder to the rear of the Ho XVIII A. Reimar Horten was angry, as this would add many more man-hours, plus it would create drag and thus reduce the range. The committee also wanted to place the engines beneath the wing, which would create additional drag and reduce the range even further. After two days of discussion, they chose a design that had huge vertical fins, with the cockpit built into the fin's leading edge. Six Jumo 004A jet engines were slung under the wing, three to a nacelle on each side. The bomb bay would be located between the two nacelles, and the tricycle landing gear would also be stored in the same area. The committee would present the final design to the RML and recommended that it be built in the former mining tunnels in the Harz Mountains. Reimar was unhappy with the final design, so he went about redesigning the aircraft, to be known as the Ho XVIII B.</div></div>

HOLY @%#$! (http://www.luft46.com/horten/ho18a.html)

LWW
08-29-2011, 10:46 AM
One of THESE (http://www.luft46.com/missile/x-4.html) is on display at the USAF Museum at WPAFB:

http://www.luft46.com/missile/x4-1.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In early 1943, work began on the X-4 air-to-air wire-guided missile by Dr. Kramer at Ruhrstahl. The missile received a development order in the summer of 1943 and was given the number 8-344 by the RLM, and was developed to give fighters a chance to down the ever increasing number of Allied bombers from outside of their defensive gun range.

The X-4 featured a tapering, cigar-shaped fuselage, with four small swept wings and four smaller tail fins. At the ends of two of the opposing wings were small pods which held the wires that unwound during the X-4's flight. On the wing tips of the other two main wings were simple flares to aid the pilot in keeping the X-4 on it's intended path. The tail unit contained small spoilers which could control the missiles pitch and yaw. Power was supplied by the BMW 109-548 rocket engine. The fuel was held in a cleverly designed spiral fuel tank (to save space). A piston was fitted into each coiled fuel tank, and the fuel was pushed into the combustion chamber at the rear of the missile by discharging compressed air to force the piston against the fuel. The two fuels (R-Stoff or Tonka and SV-Stoff or Salbei) were hypergolic, which means they ignited upon contact with each other. A warhead weighing 20 kg (44.1 lbs) with a destructive blast radius of 7.6 meters (25 feet) was mounted in the nose of the missile, being detonated by the pilot, impact or by an acoustical proximity fuse, tuned to the pitch of the bomber's propellers.

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>A typical flight would have the carrier aircraft reaching the same altitude or slightly higher than the target. The X-4 would be released from the ETC 70 or 71 bomb rack, and would spin at approximately one revolution per second (this was achieved by having the wings slightly offset from the missile center line), the gyro being used mainly for line of flight only. The pilot can then steer the missile (FuG 510/238 "Düsseldorf/Detmold" system) by the use of a small joystick in the cockpit. Seven seconds after launching, the acoustic proximity and impact fuses are armed. A self-destruction fuse is also actuated about 30 seconds after launch. The Kranich acoustical fuse (tuned to the pitch of the bombers propellers) would activate the firing mechanism within 40 meters (131 feet), with an additional slight delay allowed for the distance to close to within five meters (16 feet) before detonation of the warhead. A maximum speed of 1152 km/h (716 mph) could be reached; the range of attack was to be between 1.5 km and 3.5 km (.93 mile and 2.2 miles), although there was 5.5 km (3.4 miles) of wire on the spools.</span>

By August 1944, 225 prototype X-4s had been completed, with the first air launched test occurring on August 11, 1944 by an Fw 190. Tests continued through early February 1945, also by Ju 88s. <span style='font-size: 11pt'>Test flights were also undertaken by a Me 262 jet fighter with two X-4 missiles under the wings outboard of the jet nacelle, but were not launched. </span>

The production of the X-4 was simple, the fuselage being made up in three sections; a turned steel nose which contained the warhead, a cast aluminum center section and a tail section made from sheet aluminum. The design of the missile was set up so that unskilled labor could assemble the missiles, indeed, the sheet metal sections assembled by tabs in one section being pushed into slots of another section. The plywood wings were secured to the missile's center section with simple nuts and bolts. Approximately 1000-1300 airframes had been finished at Ruhrstahl's Brackwede factory by early 1945, and were awaiting their rocket motors, when the BMW facility at Stargard was bombed, destroying all the finished BMW 109-548 rocket engines. This missile was intended to be issued in numbers to the Luftwaffe by the early Spring of 1945, but the bombing of the BMW rocket engine factory, and the war's end prevented the combat use of the world's first guided air-to-air missile. </div></div>

hondo
08-30-2011, 04:36 PM
"Hitler hadn't been an idiot?'

No surprise here from DL.
Look at his other heroes: McCarthy, Cheney, Rove, Beck, Limberger.
Anybody see a pattern?

LWW
08-30-2011, 04:38 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Anybody see a pattern? </div></div>

Yes ... you are also an idiot.

cushioncrawler
08-30-2011, 07:29 PM
What if adolf had developed the A-bomb. WW2 kood hav turned out to be the first nucular war. Where might adolf hav dropped the first A-bomb -- London?????

Hey, wait a mo, it woz the first nucular war.
mac.

LWW
08-31-2011, 04:01 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What if adolf had developed the A-bomb. WW2 kood hav turned out to be the first nucular war. Where might adolf hav dropped the first A-bomb -- London?????

Hey, wait a mo, it woz the first nucular war.
mac. </div></div>

You should read "FROM V1 TO VIMANA: HITLER'S VENGEANCE WEAPONS"

Recently released documents show that Hitler's goal in the Battle of the Bulge was to retake Belgium as it would place the V2 ... equipped with a dirty bomb as a payload ... within range of London

Also, that the implosion detonator for the US bombs was something we had failed miserably at developing ... until a Nazi U-boat en route to Japan with enough uranium for 2 bombs, a dismantled V2, a dismantled ME-262, Nazi bomb scientists, and a working implosion detonation device defected to the east coast of the US.

There is also peripheral evidence that low yield Nazi bomb was tested in the war's last days ... as well as much detail on other weapons nearing completion, and Hitler's association with eastern mysticism and admiration of Islam.

eg8r
08-31-2011, 08:32 AM
Well if you watch the show Ancient Aliens you would be led to believe the first nuclear war was a very very long time ago.

LWW
08-31-2011, 08:36 AM
I don't buy the ancient alien hypothesis myself, although I accept it as possible.

More likely IMHO is that we have been to this stage of technical development, or more, in the past ... and stupidly destroyed that civilization much as we could today.

LWW
08-31-2011, 08:36 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Hitler hadn't been an idiot?'

No surprise here from DL.
Look at his other heroes: McCarthy, Cheney, Rove, Beck, Limberger.
Anybody see a pattern? </div></div>

And I have to come back to this ... why do you feel compelled to troll everything?

eg8r
08-31-2011, 08:45 AM
While I don't buy into it either, I am still greatly intrigued by what "man" has been able to accomplish back then with such little technology as compared to today. I absolutely love watching the show and hearing the explanations they come up with. It is amazing to me that certain engravings into the rocks in South America (I believe is correct) is not even possible with today's technology. I would have really though a CNC machine could accomplish it but according to the show the answer is "nope". /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

eg8r

Soflasnapper
08-31-2011, 12:35 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't buy the ancient alien hypothesis myself, although I accept it as possible.

More likely IMHO is that we have been to this stage of technical development, or more, in the past ... and stupidly destroyed that civilization much as we could today. </div></div>

I lean toward thinking this myself.

Which would mean that the story we're told about the rise of civilization is either wholly false, or woefully incomplete as to its early history (or both, of course).

Which wouldn't surprise me in the least (as to its truth, however astonishing the details might prove to be).

Soflasnapper
08-31-2011, 12:38 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While I don't buy into it either, I am still greatly intrigued by what "man" has been able to accomplish back then with such little technology as compared to today. I absolutely love watching the show and hearing the explanations they come up with. It is amazing to me that certain engravings into the rocks in South America (I believe is correct) is not even possible with today's technology. I would have really though a CNC machine could accomplish it but according to the show the answer is "nope". /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

eg8r </div></div>

True, but showing that SOMEBODY probably had some technology at the time that we are unaware of. Could be the ETs, or it might have been the regular humans who are our ancestors. We prejudice that question by assuming our predecessors were the stone-age types as the conventional wisdom holds.

LWW
08-31-2011, 01:09 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't buy the ancient alien hypothesis myself, although I accept it as possible.

More likely IMHO is that we have been to this stage of technical development, or more, in the past ... and stupidly destroyed that civilization much as we could today. </div></div>

I lean toward thinking this myself.

Which would mean that the story we're told about the rise of civilization is either wholly false, or woefully incomplete as to its early history (or both, of course).

Which wouldn't surprise me in the least (as to its truth, however astonishing the details might prove to be). </div></div>

Not really.

Modern civilization may well have risen from cave men.

The question is were they cave men for 100,000,000 years who one day decided to leave the cave and build some pyramids ... or were they cave men because the prior civilization imploded and the pyramids are actually relics far older than is generally assumed?

eg8r
08-31-2011, 01:23 PM
That is why I don't believe the ancient alien ideas but still intrigued but what cannot be explained.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
09-01-2011, 10:38 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't buy the ancient alien hypothesis myself, although I accept it as possible.

More likely IMHO is that we have been to this stage of technical development, or more, in the past ... and stupidly destroyed that civilization much as we could today. </div></div>

I lean toward thinking this myself.

Which would mean that the story we're told about the rise of civilization is either wholly false, or woefully incomplete as to its early history (or both, of course).

Which wouldn't surprise me in the least (as to its truth, however astonishing the details might prove to be). </div></div>

Not really.

Modern civilization may well have risen from cave men.

The question is were they cave men for 100,000,000 years who one day decided to leave the cave and build some pyramids ... or were they cave men because the prior civilization imploded and the pyramids are actually relics far older than is generally assumed? </div></div>

I see your point.

We still have somewhat of a mystery how and from where the Cro-Magnon man showed up suddenly, as a perfectly modern kind of human, what... 25,000 years ago or something?

LWW
09-01-2011, 11:29 AM
My guess is that they were very, very close to extinction prior to that.

A massive thermonuclear war from 35,000 years ago would leave also zero remains of human fossils being that they would have been almost exclusively centered it cities that would have been targets ... much like today.

Remains of the civilization would be long gone ... what is made in our technical society that would last for thousands of years? Mount Rushmore ... would future archaeologists view it much like we do the Sphinx?

If armageddon came today, the best chance for the species to repopulate would be the Tigris-Euphrates valley ... which is where the first known civilizations sprang from.

hondo
09-01-2011, 03:06 PM
I always felt the Sumerian civilization to be very interesting.
Too advanced too soon in the evolutionary scheme.
And remember that Abraham came from the region of Sumer.
Was Yahweh a spaceman determined to preseve the Atlantean-
Sumerian-Jewish line?

Explains why he's so much more cold-heated than the deity the Son of Man describes.

LWW
09-01-2011, 03:15 PM
The Sumerians merely built off of the earlier Ubaidians.

The Ubaidians developed year round farming by draining the swamps, and developed early industry such as pottery, masonry and metal working.

The Ubaidians were a non semitic people, but I doubt they were of extraterrestrial origin.

hondo
09-01-2011, 03:22 PM
You got me on this one, Lawrence. Never heard of them. I will google as time allows.

LWW
09-01-2011, 03:34 PM
I think they were the ones who filed the patent on dirt.