PDA

View Full Version : JJ's game



JJFSTAR
09-13-2011, 02:13 PM
So here is my last taped session. Thanks Spiderman! All I had to do was cut the first game in the 9ball vid (my student won that game ha-ha. And cut out my students warm-up; that shaved about 15min off of the vid. I do review my sessions many times when I tape myself, some observations are:

1. I seem to be hitting hard that day
2. I don’t seem to be stepping into my shots very well that day
3. I have a couple of “chicken wings” that day (a problem I have worked on and is better)

I will appreciate comments and suggestions from all. Fran I hope this helps and thank you for the suggestion. In the warm up the idea is to put the CB on the head string and the OB on the foot string and try to pocket the ball and draw back to the side you started from. The cuts are just to put the OB a chalks width away from the rail on the head string and the CB at the intersections of the first diamonds of the long and short rails and cut them down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu8-rgXFzHg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVRpj3-VcU4

SpiderMan
09-13-2011, 02:51 PM
John,

I watched both of the videos, and I did notice something that you did not mention in your original post.

You sometimes do not have any noticeable "transition" between the end of your backswing and the beginning of your forward stroke. In other words, from the position of tip address at the cueball, your cue is quickly snapped back and then forward again.

Some examples occur at around 2:03 (the 1-ball shot) and 4:20 (the 4-ball shot) in your 9-ball video. I also noticed it to some extent on the 7- and 8-ball shots beginning around 5:25.

When this happens, you are much more likely to return the cue tip to a different point on the cueball than you set up at address. This may cause the shot to squirt slightly off line (if your natural bridge is not at the cue's deflection-compensated pivot point), and it obviously alters the english from what you intended. It's also detrimental to achieving fine control over speed. It can cause missed shots, and can destroy your position play. It causes you to draw six inches instead of twelve, or vice versa.

I tend to notice this when watching other players because I struggle with the same issue creeping into my own form. I catch myself doing it far too often. I thank Rod Elliot, a fine player and forum member, for first pointing it out to me when I visited Phoenix in 2001.

Some advocate a distinct "pause" at the end of the backstroke, but this is too extreme for me as I prefer a smooth transition without that discontinuity. I just make a conscious effort to keep my backswing slower than my forward stroke. For me, this seems to result in a smooth transition and good control. When I remember to do it ...

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
09-13-2011, 03:04 PM
Looks like you have a very nice place to play and record! And it is well-lit, which is very important for getting good video.

One thing I have started doing in my videograpy is to carefully center on the table and zoom in a little more, so that the meager 640x480 pixels available in my standard-def camera gear aren't wasted on the surroundings. By doing this carefully, I am able to create videos where the colors and stripes are easy to see. Sometimes I even convince myself that the numbers can be read (though this is the exception rather than the rule).

Of course, we would have missed that nice shot of the waitress in your practice video /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

SpiderMan

JoeW
09-13-2011, 03:13 PM
In line with Spiderman's comments here is something to try. I noticed that a few (several?) pros seem to jiggle the cue stick during their warm up. By "jiggle" I mean short (one - two inch) strokes, then a longer stroke with a transition. For the life of me I could not figure out why they did that but I thought, "What the heck, it is worth a try." Well, it is difficult to explain but your stroking actually improves and the transitions are better. I find that my positional play has improved too. Perhaps the jiggle helps the ole brain once again evaluate the weight of the cue. I do think it helps the stroke though I don't know why.

I am the kinda guy who likes to see the facts that support a point of view and I have no factual information about the jiggle but it works and is now part of my pre-shot routine. I am sure RandyG would disown any idea that I went to his pool school !!

Anyway -- give it a try. It would be interesting to see what others find.

jjinfla
09-13-2011, 06:38 PM
I take it you play as a 5 and your partner is a 4.

Fran Crimi
09-13-2011, 08:29 PM
First of all, you have a very solid game, so there's no need to be hard on yourself. The ability is there.

If I were working with you on your game I'd give you the following homework assignment:

Study Rodney Morris and then go to the table and try to imitate him. It doesn't matter if you miss. Just try to be Rodney.

You can check out some of this past week's Turning Stone matches that he played. He was in great form all week.

Try to feel what it's like to play in Rodney's rhythm. One of the things that jumps out with Rodney's game is how he makes it all seem so effortless. Try to capture that and copy it.

Remember, it's just an exercise.

Then ask yourself if there is anything that you might be able to intergrate into your own game. But first, you have to really put in the effort to try to imitate him.

And never forget....Pool is fun. Have fun with it.

JJFSTAR
09-14-2011, 12:39 AM
I did anticipate some answers like these immature, not the least bit helpful, poking fun at, pontifical, degrading and the like. Congratulations you are the only one so far, but a anticipate many more.

JJFSTAR
09-14-2011, 09:55 AM
Spiderman: yes I am aware of this problem and thank you for reminding me of it. I have even come up with a name for it. I call it “Rushing the delivery stroke”. In my practice sessions I have made an effort to integrate a “slow pull back” to take care of this problem. But what is helpful about what you said is that it drives home more clearly just how insidious the problem is and the total affect it has on my game. When teaching the teacher has to speak to the person who really controls the game and that’s not Johns conscious it is his sub-conscious, this is really helpful thanks.

I actually used to not rush the delivery stroke so often because I had a longer pre-shot routine. It used to be more like address, strokex4, slow pull back, deliver and freeze. Then I noticed that when I really seemed to be on “A” game my stroke #’s fell to 2’s and 3’s and so I dropped a couple of warm-up/feel strokes from my routine and my eye patterns sharpened up and my game went up. And I figured this is good because (generally speaking) “the more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain”.

But 2 things happened that were bad. I rushed more of my delivery strokes AND I also had the tendency to “outrun myself” more often (playing too quickly for my level) and blow the end of a really high percentage run. I am making an effort to reintegrate that slow pull because not only does it help define the transition between the backswing and delivery stroke which reduces the tendency to rush the delivery but it also helps with the occasional “chicken wing”.

Joe W.: I hope you and Kay are doing well. I noticed this about a few pros and a few good players locally. My reluctance to try it has come from a basic theory that I just told Spiderman “the more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain”. But I have reached the point where I have spent so much time and effort that as you say “what the heck, it’s worth a try”.

My pre-shot routine has been to the laboratory 29 times making it an even 30 shouldn’t be a big deal. So prior to my address I will give this a little “jiggle” to just “feel the weight”. I will let you know how it goes.


Fran: I have studied Rodney along with Johnny, Thorsten, Mika, Tony, Allison, Ewa, Karen, Gerta, Janette, Guy-yung, Earl, Fong-pang, Francisco, Effren and a few others. I am not 100% sure why you would pick specifically Rodney, other than that we have similar pre-shot routines exemplified by the # of warm-up/feel strokes. Vivian, Earl(used to, he has since added a stroke), Rodney and I all use that “2x stroke” system. I have tapes of Rodney and I will do this assignment first. But can you give me a little more as to the why? Don’t get me wrong I don’t doubt or question you but 1. Why Rodney? 2. What do you anticipate me discovering?

Again thank you all for your help, study of my game and effort to advise.

09-14-2011, 10:07 AM
JJ,

I read your original post:

http://billiardsdigest.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=364937#Post364937

and watched your vids. What I saw was that you ahve nice fundamentals. Your stance, arm position, head position and stroke all seem to be inline and "workable". Your stroke is nice and straight. In short, it seems like you have a nice foundation.

Here's some other observations I made:

You ball pocketing skill is not that strong. Your CB position/position play needs a lot of work. You have a loose CB and need to play much more precise. Your break needs some work. Again, the Cb flies around, instead or parking in the middle of the table. Also, as Spidey mentioned, you can improve your stroke by being more smooth in the pull back-final stroke area. If you slowed down and smoothed out the pull back, you would have a better quality stroke.

I'm curious- you said you play on 2 teams and you said that only a handful can beat your A game. What league do you play in and what is your current rating? how long have you been playing or practicing "seriously"?

The reason I ask is that (I hope this doesn't come off badly)you do have a nice foundation, but you are a long way from "top local amateur". In my area, we use the Open:A+:A:B+:B:C+:C:D+:D rating system. Open would be a shortstop/semi pro and D can be anywhere from a rank beginner to a player with a couple years of dedicated practice. We also have national leagues like the APA, that uses 1-7 for 8 ball ratings and 1-9 for 9 ball ratings.

In my area, you would probably be a C player or an APA 4/5 in 9 ball. I say this to give you a little perspective as far as where you stand. There are lots of areas where you can improve, in addition to what I mentioned, such as being smoother and not so rigid with the "by the book, textbook stroke". Let it flow. Every stroke doesn't have to have the same forceful forward motion. A lot of shots in Pool is all about finesse. For example, on touchy-er, shorter shots, you don't need to give it the full stroke. You can shorten your backstroke and shorten your follow thru.

Anywho, just some candid feedback that you wanted.


Eric

Fran Crimi
09-14-2011, 01:34 PM
Good questions about Rodney. I'm sure you have studied him but have you ever tried to imitate him? That's a whole different ball game.

I have found that players who focus very heavily on their mechanics will sometimes lose their rhythm. I haven't seen you play enough to say that it is actually happening with you but from what I saw, you would be a good candidate for experimenting with different rhythms, and I think Rodney's rhythm is as good as it gets. Hey why not imitate the best and feel what he feels? Your own style and skills will still come out but I would like to see you experiment with rhythm.

The best advice anyone ever gave me in pool was from a hustler who told me: "Find your rhythm."

Dick Leonard who posts here summarized it beautifully. He said that shooting pool is like a well-choreographed dance. Rodney dances.

JJFSTAR
09-14-2011, 03:57 PM
Eric, thank you for your post and your effort to help, I do appreciate it. None of what you said “came off badly”, a couple of things that were funny but I assure you none of it insulting in any way. I am very humble about my game and am just seeking to improve and looking for individuals who would like to help me get closer to that goal.

I have found in my pool playing time that when I have helped others to improve that this often gives me a fresh perspective into my own game and I also end up that much closer to my goals in the game. I hope none of what I will say in my answer will “come off badly” if it does I apologize in advance.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What I saw was that you ahve nice fundamentals. Your stance, arm position, head position and stroke all seem to be inline and "workable". Your stroke is nice and straight. In short, it seems like you have a nice foundation.</div></div>

Thanks the fundamentals are what I have been working on for a long time it is my only strength as a player IMHO.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You ball pocketing skill is not that strong.</div></div>

Yes I know I do not have a natural awareness of where to hit the ball to put it in the pocket. I have studied lots of aiming systems to try and help me with this. It has certainly helped but I believe this is more raw talent than something that can ultimately be overcome. (See my post “Hypothesis: natural talent”). My awareness of this is why I do drill an awful lot.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You have a loose CB and need to play much more precise. Your break needs some work. Again, the Cb flies around, instead or parking in the middle of the table.</div></div>

You are confusing poor execution with poor strategy, this is a very common error. In 9ball the CB often needs to do much more traveling than in any other game. This is why it often looks like my CB is just “flying around”. About the break, I have had this conversation many times and have watched and studied many pro matches. There is a balance to hitting it hard enough to make a ball and “squatting the CB”. Again your confusion is that of poor execution not that of lack of thought or foresight by me.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Also, as Spidey mentioned, you can improve your stroke by being more smooth in the pull back-final stroke area. If you slowed down and smoothed out the pull back, you would have a better quality stroke. </div></div>

I know I have been working on this. Apparently you and I were both writing at the same time, funny huh, see my 2nd long post.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm curious- you said you play on 2 teams and you said that only a handful can beat your A game. What league do you play in and what is your current rating? how long have you been playing or practicing "seriously"?</div></div>

I play in the West Penn Pool League and on a TAP team. In the WPPL my team toggles between sections 1 & 2 we will win section 2 and get bumped up to section 1, loose and then get bumped back to section 2. I am regarded as one of the “big guns” on the team and have averaged between 62.5% and 75% for years. There are 5 sections they are defined as follows:

Section 1. “Super section; all players can break & run”
Section 2. “Consistently stronger than most league players”
Section 3. “A good mix of strong and average league players”
Section 4. “Maybe 1 or 2 strong players, mostly average league players”
Section 5. “Below average league players”

I am in my 2nd season as a TAP player. The team has designated me as the coach I am currently ranked as a 5. I was the top 5 in our division in my 1st season right up until the last week where I lost the top ranking to the 5 who was in 2nd place.

I have been playing seriously for approximately 20 years.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The reason I ask is that (I hope this doesn't come off badly)you do have a nice foundation, but you are a long way from "top local amateur". </div></div>

I simply do not understand why my being far from being a top local amateur is the reason why you ask for my current ratings.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In my area, you would probably be a C player or an APA 4/5 in 9 ball. I say this to give you a little perspective as far as where you stand. </div></div>

You must have quite a pool playing area, apparently people in your area are on average are miles above this area. I have heard this from our captain “There are places where they have 3’s running tables”. So yes area has everything to do with where one stands. Because in this area I rip through C players and APA 4’s & 5’s like a machine gun through a wet paper bag. But quite frankly I don’t need any assistance in knowing where I stand, I know where I stand. I have played enough Fargo, played in enough local tournaments, played enough league play, watched enough pro TV play, been to other parts of the country and watched the beginners to the top to know exactly “where I stand”. I am just trying to get better.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> There are lots of areas where you can improve, in addition to what I mentioned, such as being smoother and not so rigid with the "by the book, textbook stroke". Let it flow. </div></div>

When my “A” game comes out I do “let it flow” the path or what leads to that is most often high concentration on “by the book, textbook stuff”


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Every stroke doesn't have to have the same forceful forward motion. A lot of shots in Pool is all about finesse. For example, on touchy-er, shorter shots, you don't need to give it the full stroke. You can shorten your backstroke and shorten your follow thru.</div></div>

Most pool players have 3 distinctly different types of strokes 1. Their long stroke; the one that they use generally when the CB & OB have some distance and they are trying to be very accurate. 2. Their medium stroke; the stroke that they use generally when accuracy is not really an issue and they are trying to maintain their inner rhythm. 3. Their short stroke; the one that they use generally when the CB & OB are fairly close to one another and using 1 or 2 would result in a foul. (remember I do use the words “most” and “generally” keep that in mind)

I have a 4th, I call it “flick”. This is a minimum power stroke. I use it when I am making a “touchy” safety, and frequently when I have a very thin cut into the side that is very close to the pocket and is just exactly within the physical realm of possibility to make. It involves not moving the forearm at all and just the wrist. This is good for producing minimum power. So not only can you shorten your backstroke and follow through you can eliminate them and just use your wrist.

Not only can you shorten your follow through sometimes it is very necessary in order not to foul. Sometimes you can use your knuckles to hit the end of the table to PREVENT following through and fouling. The demonstration can be found on the colostate.edu website, Bob Jewitt does the demonstration.

In reference to where I last quote you. I don’t quite understand why you would say this to me. I can only speculate that you are confusing my “freeze” with “Every stroke doesn't have to have the same forceful forward motion.” My long “freeze” is a conscious effort to prevent or at least lessen this kind of thing. http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/17221705 Go to 00:37:50-00:38:10. Yes that is world class pool player Alex Pagulayan.

And making the statement “A lot of shots in Pool is all about finesse.” Is IMHO something to be said to social players, not competition players; and certainly to players that have run 3 consecutive racks of both 8 & 9ball this statement is not insulting in any way it is comical. That is a statement to be said to someone who can’t consistantly run 4 balls not to someone who has never run 4 racks.

In conclusion I hope you didn’t take anything I said the wrong way I am trying to just be 100% logical. If you come from an area where people like me are C players and APA 4 or 5’s (around here you can add +1 to an APA handicap and you have a good TAP handicap) and are a local top player I think (or at least hope) that you could do MUCH better than “a lot of pool is finesse”, “you don’t have to have the same stroke for everything”, “let it flow”, “slow down” and “your CB flies around”. I would encourage you to look at the videos again. You seem to be willing to help and I am in need of it, because I want to continue to improve but I am sort of at a stumbling point in the road. I value your input and appreciate your efforts to help. I refuse to believe that someone who comes from an area where I am a dime a dozen can’t help much.

Bambu
09-15-2011, 07:34 AM
You look very good on the drills, especially the draw shots. I also noticed you were very deliberate in the way you set up for your drill. I suggest not being so particular, so that you end up practicing variations of the same shot.

All that good stuff Fran said about Rodney is what I meant about free stroking in your other post. When we concentrate or try too hard, we drain ourselves of energy. Its better to let it flow smoothly, effortlessly. Seems nearly impossible when we lack confidence, or feel tight/mechanical. But after awhile you start making shots you didnt think you could. Don't let the cue pull your hand, make sure your back hand consciously feels the shot.

09-15-2011, 11:09 AM
John,

Here is what I was basing my evaluation on, from your vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVRpj3-VcU4

3:30- Failed safety attempt- weak speed control. This safe had little chance of success. You needed to tuck the CB behnd that ball, which was touchy and you couldn't hit the OB hard enough to create distance or get it to the other end rail. You should have shot of the LEFT side of the OB and tried to hide the CB behind the 9 ball

4:10- lack of finesse- scratch in the side pocket due to hitting too hard and using too much draw off the 4 ball. You only needed the speed to get to the center of the table and no further. A little long or short of that is fine.

5:40- weak shotmaking & lack of finesse- you pounded the 8 ball unnecessarily. You have natural shape on the 9 ball, from there. All you needed to do was to cleanly pocket the 8 ball, perhaps a punch stroke, to pop the Cb a lil off the rial and make the 9. By hitting way too hard, you missed the 8. There was no need to draw the CB.

7:05- Break shot- look at your break and look at the path the CB takes after hitting the rack.

7:25-Pushout- very poor pushout choice. you basically left he guy a simple, open shot on the 1 ball. Around here, that is referred to as the "I hate money" push.

8:30- shotmaking & finesse- you had a fairly simple shot o nthe 1 and had to draw back for the 2, which was in a somewhat funny spot. You hit the shot way too hard, missed the 1 ball(shotmaking) and wasn't close to having position on the 2, assuming that you made the 1 ball(finesse).

I think this is enough, for now.

The reason why I asked how long you have been playing and how you stack up against you local group of players is to get a basis for what your experience was. For the sake of argument, my area(NYC metro) is not anything extraordinary. We don't have "3's that run racks". What we do have is a big population and a big cross section of pool players that, based on my experience, is comparable to a national average of skill. If you are a big fish in a small pond, then your rating might be skewed compared to the national average.

John, you have many areas you can work on, to bring your skill up. If you catagorised pool skill to, say, 5 areas (shotmaking, position play, safety play, kicking and breaking), from what I saw, you can make improvements in all areas (I dont know about your kicking). In short, there is no hidden tip or gem to improve your game. If anything, having slight improvements in all those areas, or even 3 or 5, will have a decent impact on your game.


Eric





<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Eric, thank you for your post and your effort to help, I do appreciate it. None of what you said “came off badly”, a couple of things that were funny but I assure you none of it insulting in any way. I am very humble about my game and am just seeking to improve and looking for individuals who would like to help me get closer to that goal.

I have found in my pool playing time that when I have helped others to improve that this often gives me a fresh perspective into my own game and I also end up that much closer to my goals in the game. I hope none of what I will say in my answer will “come off badly” if it does I apologize in advance.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What I saw was that you ahve nice fundamentals. Your stance, arm position, head position and stroke all seem to be inline and "workable". Your stroke is nice and straight. In short, it seems like you have a nice foundation.</div></div>

Thanks the fundamentals are what I have been working on for a long time it is my only strength as a player IMHO.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You ball pocketing skill is not that strong.</div></div>

Yes I know I do not have a natural awareness of where to hit the ball to put it in the pocket. I have studied lots of aiming systems to try and help me with this. It has certainly helped but I believe this is more raw talent than something that can ultimately be overcome. (See my post “Hypothesis: natural talent”). My awareness of this is why I do drill an awful lot.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You have a loose CB and need to play much more precise. Your break needs some work. Again, the Cb flies around, instead or parking in the middle of the table.</div></div>

You are confusing poor execution with poor strategy, this is a very common error. In 9ball the CB often needs to do much more traveling than in any other game. This is why it often looks like my CB is just “flying around”. About the break, I have had this conversation many times and have watched and studied many pro matches. There is a balance to hitting it hard enough to make a ball and “squatting the CB”. Again your confusion is that of poor execution not that of lack of thought or foresight by me.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Also, as Spidey mentioned, you can improve your stroke by being more smooth in the pull back-final stroke area. If you slowed down and smoothed out the pull back, you would have a better quality stroke. </div></div>

I know I have been working on this. Apparently you and I were both writing at the same time, funny huh, see my 2nd long post.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm curious- you said you play on 2 teams and you said that only a handful can beat your A game. What league do you play in and what is your current rating? how long have you been playing or practicing "seriously"?</div></div>

I play in the West Penn Pool League and on a TAP team. In the WPPL my team toggles between sections 1 & 2 we will win section 2 and get bumped up to section 1, loose and then get bumped back to section 2. I am regarded as one of the “big guns” on the team and have averaged between 62.5% and 75% for years. There are 5 sections they are defined as follows:

Section 1. “Super section; all players can break & run”
Section 2. “Consistently stronger than most league players”
Section 3. “A good mix of strong and average league players”
Section 4. “Maybe 1 or 2 strong players, mostly average league players”
Section 5. “Below average league players”

I am in my 2nd season as a TAP player. The team has designated me as the coach I am currently ranked as a 5. I was the top 5 in our division in my 1st season right up until the last week where I lost the top ranking to the 5 who was in 2nd place.

I have been playing seriously for approximately 20 years.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The reason I ask is that (I hope this doesn't come off badly)you do have a nice foundation, but you are a long way from "top local amateur". </div></div>

I simply do not understand why my being far from being a top local amateur is the reason why you ask for my current ratings.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In my area, you would probably be a C player or an APA 4/5 in 9 ball. I say this to give you a little perspective as far as where you stand. </div></div>

You must have quite a pool playing area, apparently people in your area are on average are miles above this area. I have heard this from our captain “There are places where they have 3’s running tables”. So yes area has everything to do with where one stands. Because in this area I rip through C players and APA 4’s & 5’s like a machine gun through a wet paper bag. But quite frankly I don’t need any assistance in knowing where I stand, I know where I stand. I have played enough Fargo, played in enough local tournaments, played enough league play, watched enough pro TV play, been to other parts of the country and watched the beginners to the top to know exactly “where I stand”. I am just trying to get better.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> There are lots of areas where you can improve, in addition to what I mentioned, such as being smoother and not so rigid with the "by the book, textbook stroke". Let it flow. </div></div>

When my “A” game comes out I do “let it flow” the path or what leads to that is most often high concentration on “by the book, textbook stuff”


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Every stroke doesn't have to have the same forceful forward motion. A lot of shots in Pool is all about finesse. For example, on touchy-er, shorter shots, you don't need to give it the full stroke. You can shorten your backstroke and shorten your follow thru.</div></div>

Most pool players have 3 distinctly different types of strokes 1. Their long stroke; the one that they use generally when the CB & OB have some distance and they are trying to be very accurate. 2. Their medium stroke; the stroke that they use generally when accuracy is not really an issue and they are trying to maintain their inner rhythm. 3. Their short stroke; the one that they use generally when the CB & OB are fairly close to one another and using 1 or 2 would result in a foul. (remember I do use the words “most” and “generally” keep that in mind)

I have a 4th, I call it “flick”. This is a minimum power stroke. I use it when I am making a “touchy” safety, and frequently when I have a very thin cut into the side that is very close to the pocket and is just exactly within the physical realm of possibility to make. It involves not moving the forearm at all and just the wrist. This is good for producing minimum power. So not only can you shorten your backstroke and follow through you can eliminate them and just use your wrist.

Not only can you shorten your follow through sometimes it is very necessary in order not to foul. Sometimes you can use your knuckles to hit the end of the table to PREVENT following through and fouling. The demonstration can be found on the colostate.edu website, Bob Jewitt does the demonstration.

In reference to where I last quote you. I don’t quite understand why you would say this to me. I can only speculate that you are confusing my “freeze” with “Every stroke doesn't have to have the same forceful forward motion.” My long “freeze” is a conscious effort to prevent or at least lessen this kind of thing. http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/17221705 Go to 00:37:50-00:38:10. Yes that is world class pool player Alex Pagulayan.

And making the statement “A lot of shots in Pool is all about finesse.” Is IMHO something to be said to social players, not competition players; and certainly to players that have run 3 consecutive racks of both 8 & 9ball this statement is not insulting in any way it is comical. That is a statement to be said to someone who can’t consistantly run 4 balls not to someone who has never run 4 racks.

In conclusion I hope you didn’t take anything I said the wrong way I am trying to just be 100% logical. If you come from an area where people like me are C players and APA 4 or 5’s (around here you can add +1 to an APA handicap and you have a good TAP handicap) and are a local top player I think (or at least hope) that you could do MUCH better than “a lot of pool is finesse”, “you don’t have to have the same stroke for everything”, “let it flow”, “slow down” and “your CB flies around”. I would encourage you to look at the videos again. You seem to be willing to help and I am in need of it, because I want to continue to improve but I am sort of at a stumbling point in the road. I value your input and appreciate your efforts to help. I refuse to believe that someone who comes from an area where I am a dime a dozen can’t help much. </div></div>

JJFSTAR
09-15-2011, 12:57 PM
Thanks Eric & Bambu

JJFSTAR
09-19-2011, 01:18 PM
Fran is Morris also a 3 cusion billiard player?

Fran Crimi
09-19-2011, 08:30 PM
Not that I know of....

Sid_Vicious
09-20-2011, 02:29 AM
Question, at 11:20 in the vid...was the 8 stroke intended for the thin cut into the corner. That's a hellova shot to consider and make, understanding the results if you'd missed. I sometimes make that same shot by accident when trying to kick into the short rail and into the backside of OB for long table repositioning safety shaping. It's funny sometimes how the 530 clock dial, medium+ speed stroke on the CB, spirals into the OB and thin-in. Maybe you purposely intended the shot as it happened. I'd never broke stride after making it had it gone this way for myself, but you could pretty much count me out for the finish you made after my thin cut success. That was pretty.

Oh, only things I noticed to think about was when to follow for shape and when to draw having BIH. Rushing the stroke...everybody does, and both of you guys did too. It got to be a traded off addiction at times once it started with one.

Would your upper body look so tense if a picture was taken in a casual scene, such as a party with a pool table? You may have a very physical type job and all that shoulder strength is natural. I feel my shoulders rising in time though when I get stressed, and have to "mental them down", breath, relax, Zen, slam a drink, take a leak,,,just refocus to calm. You might think about that to see if it helps.

Kudos on putting a vid of yourself here in public. I mean that! sid

jjinfla
09-20-2011, 09:19 AM
I have watched Rodney practice and play a few times. It is soooo depressing. The balls look like golf balls and the pockets look like buckets. I think the balls are afraid not to go where Rodney wills them.

But then all of his shots are relatively short and easy when he is running the table. LOL.

That seems to be a consistent pattern with the pros - all the shots are short and easy.

It must be a great feeling to be that good.

jjinfla
09-20-2011, 09:33 AM
JJFSTAR,

Two things you can do to improve.

Practice against a better partner, one who can run out when you miss. Or at least come close to running out.

Take some professional lessons.

But, since you have been playing for 20 years you already know that.

Sid_Vicious
09-20-2011, 01:43 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jjinfla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JJFSTAR,

Two things you can do to improve.

Practice against a better partner, one who can run out when you miss. Or at least come close to running out.

Take some professional lessons.

But, since you have been playing for 20 years you already know that. </div></div>

Only thing I've found against these pieces of advice is that playing the runout player, can teach you how to lose and rack relentlessly, losing the feeling to stringing a run even if you don't get out. As far as lessons, maybe some individual HOURLY lessons from a highly renowned and referenced player thenselves, and better if it's an older(grayer hair the better) teacher. Scoot for $60 or a hundred $$ for an hour of their time and see how it feels before you toss 2-3 hundred for a package. I think that you've already done this for some reason, you play very well IMO. I do not promote packages nor pool schools, and I have had some over the time. The info just doesn't stick like it does when you can do 2 hours with one trusted veteran, then work on it for a couple of weeks and return.

Frankly JJ, I see your game already there, just missing some "composure", and you don't get that without playing tons of hours of pool. IMO though, playing 1-1.5 average inning shooters is depressing in the struggle to get to be a bigger player. You are young enough to do it though,,,I'm not. sid

Oh as always, I promote playing for money, and learning how to match up well. You'll get your runout artists to play you, but a good spot will surprise most at how the runout people have to push their talent to really compete. THAT, is precious time behind the CB. sv

JJFSTAR
09-21-2011, 08:19 AM
Sid thank you very much for responding, I am glad you did.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Question, at 11:20 in the vid...was the 8 stroke intended for the thin cut into the corner. </div></div>

Yes it was. One of my many many drills is to put the OB about a chalks width away from the short foot rail in the center of the table and from the head string try to cut it into the corner pockets. Yes it is a low percentage shot but from there so is the safety; and when the offensive shot and the defensive shot are roughly equal; well I take the offensive shot.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I sometimes make that same shot by accident when trying to kick into the short rail and into the backside of OB for long table repositioning safety shaping. It's funny sometimes how the 530 clock dial, medium+ speed stroke on the CB, spirals into the OB and thin-in. Maybe you purposely intended the shot as it happened. I'd never broke stride after making it had it gone this way for myself, but you could pretty much count me out for the finish you made after my thin cut success. That was pretty. </div></div>

Thanks Sid and a very good point it is! I didn’t consider the rail 1st safety, I should have; this is the most helpful thing in your post; one of the mistakes that I made in that game was I did not consider enough options. I didn’t even walk to the other end of the table to see exactly how much room there was between the OB and the rail. If there were any ball around there to hide the CB behind or any ball up table to hide the OB behind (BTW it is the 4 ball) I probably would have considered the safe.




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, only things I noticed to think about was when to follow for shape and when to draw having BIH. Rushing the stroke...everybody does, and both of you guys did too. It got to be a traded off addiction at times once it started with one. </div></div>

During these 2 games I get BIH once and I stun it into the 9 to break them because the 2 doesn’t have a pocket. I personally believe that drawing with BIH is more often than not a bad idea. Sure many times it is the thing to do but USUALLY there is a better option. It is one of those “little” things that lots of players do that is not THE BEST shot, kind of like sinking the ball and calling safe in 8ball. Yes rushing the delivery stroke is something that I am struggling with. I hope to have this problem licked soon.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would your upper body look so tense if a picture was taken in a casual scene, such as a party with a pool table? You may have a very physical type job and all that shoulder strength is natural. I feel my shoulders rising in time though when I get stressed, and have to "mental them down", breath, relax, Zen, slam a drink, take a leak,,,just refocus to calm. You might think about that to see if it helps. </div></div>

I will think about that. I do not (to my knowledge) have tension in my shoulders; you might have said something big here. I do have a body type that does not have naturally sloping shoulders (if you saw me in a suit you would think that suit had shoulder pads). That may have to do with my previous training also I am not entirely sure. I will take note of it tonight thanks! About the stress stuff; I have been working on my “chair skills” for a few years now, it is a work in progress.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kudos on putting a vid of yourself here in public. I mean that! sid
</div></div>

I wish I could take the credit, Fran suggested it and it is working out wonderfully!

About your 2nd post, good stuff in there and yes you are right I have taken some pro lessons. About the playing for money; I seem to have trouble finding people to play for money. Taking $$ from chumps fuels the desire to keep going but does little for your “long term improvement” or I will get the “multiple rack runner” that I can’t beat.

The people that are of my same skill level either 1. Don’t want to play me 2. Are a$$ho/es and I don’t want to play them. 3. Are always broke. 4. Only want to play on weekend nights in a bar environment where all hell is breaking loose around us.

Something is always wrong. I just can’t find someone who is pleasant to be around, wants to play me for money, isn’t an AA player, has money and wants to play on a 9ft, level table with decent cloth in the afternoon or on lets say Wednesday night without 10,000 people around screaming, getting drunk, bumping into you or worse. This may seem trivial but I swear it is absolutely true.

Finally, I can’t take much stock into the advice Old Jake has given me. He can watch my student and I play and thinks there is only a single handicap disparity between us. Thanks again Sid.

Sid_Vicious
09-22-2011, 12:38 PM
That cut with a chalks width, and at that CB distance and angle really intimidates me, so I go real conservative if I can. Now OB pinched on the rail, that's a different story. A back cut even feels good, but embarrasing when missed contact. These things are what makes pool fun IMO.

It is the rushing the stroke under pressure that gets most people. It is also a problem to over analyze over the stroke too. Damned if you do, damned if you dont :-( You know all this though.

As far as peopl not wanting to play you for cash, I don't have that problem. There are plenty of shooters waiting to get at me, cuz I can always pay my losses, which in no way implies you don't. I, myself dodge some players who I've always lost to for cash. For some reason I find it difficult to ask for enough weight with some players, a weakness of mine. I'm supposed to be good enough to manage with less of a spot, yet asking for a spot with what I'd feel comfortable playing with from those who have always won, puts me into that "drama of barking back and forth" for weight, hence I choose to play ol'Joe, ol'Jack, ol'Sally and swap money, and nobody gets raped over time. The barking back and forth really doesn't appeal to me. sid

jjinfla
09-23-2011, 12:22 PM
JJFSTAR,

You are full of surprises. At first you didn't mention you have been playing for 20 years. And now you say the person you are playing is your student. So I guess that means that you are an instructor.

Hey, you do keep your head down. And not many men are able to put their chin on the cue.

So tell me, when you approach the table and look it over what is going through your mind? What is your plan? Perhaps you should make another video where you go through 3-4 racks by yourself and then Sid or Fran or whomever can critique your play. I quit giving advice several years ago. I learned that I should leave that to the qualified people. A suggestion here and there sometimes. Mostly, I suggest that they pay for some lessons. LOL.

One more question. Do you normally shoot that hard?


Sid a few years back I used to pay a local pro $20 an hour for some of his knowledge. A person can learn a lot in an hour of one on one instruction. Remembering it is what is hard. As is executing it.

Rich R.
09-23-2011, 02:08 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jjinfla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And not many men are able to put their chin on the cue. </div></div>
Damn!!! I can put my chin on my cue and I guarantee you that if I can, anyone can. Some may choose not to but I'm sure they can.

JJFSTAR
09-23-2011, 03:31 PM
First off let me say that in no way am I trying to berate or insult you in any way. I am trying to become a better pool player that is all. As of late my progress as a player has slowed, that is the reason for the post. At the suggestion of a pro pool player I put up the last taped session I had with a student of mine.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jjinfla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JJFSTAR,

You are full of surprises. At first you didn't mention you have been playing for 20 years.
</div></div>

I believe the length of time playing is not very relevant to ones ability to improve their game. I have had students in their 50’s that have made mammoth improvement that have been playing for a longer period of time than I have.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jjinfla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And now you say the person you are playing is your student. So I guess that means that you are an instructor. </div></div>

If you look at my original post you will see that I SAY that this is one of my students NOT JUST ONCE BUT TWICE!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So here is my last taped session. Thanks Spiderman! All I had to do was cut the first game in the 9ball vid (<u>my student </u>won that game ha-ha. And cut out <u>my students </u>warm-up; that shaved about 15min off of the vid. </div></div>

You didn’t read carefully and that is a huge problem on this board. That is correct I am an instructor. I hold no titles or certifications nor do I charge the fees that warrant such “papers”, my fees are nominal. I have taken many people from “social” players to “competitive” players.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jjinfla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Hey, you do keep your head down. And not many men are able to put their chin on the cue. </div></div>

I assume you don’t mean this too literally, I assume you mean put the chin on the cue with my face perpendicular to it. I will answer that by saying that my flexibility exceeds that of most people, which is due to my former training.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jjinfla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So tell me, when you approach the table and look it over what is going through your mind? What is your plan? </div></div>

I am not sure how to tackle this one; there are so many calculations that are going through my mind angles, odds, position zones, options etc.. these go on at lightning speed. JUST LIKE ANYONE ELSE WHO HAS RUN MORE THAN 1 CONSECUTIVE RACK OF ANYTHING. So I will limit my answer to the 1st few seconds. In the 1st few nanoseconds I ask myself how I am going to win the game. The next 1.98-3 seconds or so I work on the big 3 decisions 1. Try to run the table. 2. Play safe 3. Sink a number of balls and then safe. Any farther explanation would be grossly incomplete or surely far too long for a single post.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jjinfla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Perhaps you should make another video where you go through 3-4 racks by yourself and then Sid or Fran or whomever can critique your play. </div></div>

I do anticipate doing this in the future, thanks but I have already thought of that.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jjinfla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I quit giving advice several years ago. I learned that I should leave that to the qualified people. A suggestion here and there sometimes. Mostly, I suggest that they pay for some lessons. LOL. </div></div>

I am glad you learned that, I also quit giving advice long ago; I suggest that they pay me for lessons. How most people learn how to play pool is through advice, tips and tricks. I call that “The 20 year program”. I probably have gotten more students this way than any other single method. I tell people when they ask me for advice, tips and tricks that that is not what I do and I call that the “20 year program”. I started teaching long ago for my own edification. Today it is the thing that keeps me interested, improves my game and allows me to make more money than I spend playing the game. It is one of the very few talents I have. I have watched people try to “teach” other people how to play. I have also watched “PROS” teach. I can say that very few have any awareness of how to do this at all.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jjinfla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
One more question. Do you normally shoot that hard?
</div></div>

It is hard for me to believe that I am YET AGAIN QUOTEING MYSELF!!! and in my OP!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I do review my sessions many times when I tape myself, some observations are:

1. I seem to be hitting hard that day
</div></div>

This is the last time I am going to do this I am trying to be polite but there is no reason for me to say things over and over again. If I say “I seem to be hitting hard that day”. Anybody who is any more than a teenager and has an education past elementary school should be able to figure out that this is atypical for me.

I hope I didn’t say anything to offend you and if I did I apologize. Quite frankly I have very serious doubts about your ability to help me get better.

Sid_Vicious
09-24-2011, 01:40 AM
"Sid a few years back I used to pay a local pro $20 an hour for some of his knowledge. A person can learn a lot in an hour of one on one instruction. Remembering it is what is hard. As is executing it."

Twenty an hour is something I'd always jump on. I buy more drinks for people in an hour than $20, woo-hoo, send me that local pro ;-) Here, it's generally $80 an hour for any real value of a teacher/player, or then you are either going to be playing money sets to get their time, or not get their time at all.

You really shouldn't drop my name along with Fran's. It's an insult to Fran. She and I both know my "general real game", and it isn't in the same ballpark with Fran. I have a fair feel about the game, but that's it. I try to make observations is all.

I was sorry to see this thread go so haywire. It is this very reason I'd personally be very reluctant to Youtube myself doing anything, in any hobby. I myself am guilty of going out of context after viewing any clips from anyone in any hobby, but it isn't meant to be non productive...just human nature I guess.

This unhappy outcome is why I gave kudos to JJstar for putting himself in the video and posting it. later...sid

Tony_in_MD
09-24-2011, 04:56 AM
JJ

I would suggest you try a few things.

1. Slow down your backstroke

2. Before the final stoke, pause the cuetip at the cueball This will allow you time to make that final decision to pull the trigger or not. If you are ready pull the trigger, if not get up and cycle through your preshot routine again.

You can also try to implement a pause at the end of the backstroke (like Buddy Hall) to help slow things down if you are rushing your stroke.

Bambu
09-24-2011, 07:50 AM
Thats the thing I dont like about video. Anyone can make themselves look good filming a runout. Putting up a bad rack or 2.....now that takes balls.

JJ if there are only 10 guys in your area that can beat you badly, find one of em to shoot with(alot). Take the beating, and eventually you will win. Nothing wrong with teaching beginners, but thats not gonna improve your game. I cant think of one B level player, or better....who got to be that good on his/her own(drills or no drills).

JJFSTAR
09-25-2011, 09:57 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was sorry to see this thread go so haywire. It is this very reason I'd personally be very reluctant to Youtube myself doing anything, in any hobby.

This unhappy outcome is why I gave kudos to JJstar for putting himself in the video and posting it. later...sid </div></div>

Sid this has been great for me, I don’t think it is such an unhappy outcome there has only been 1 person who has been able to offer absolutely nothing. Some others have made observations that for the most part I already know but that is fine by me. The reaffirmation of stuff I know just makes it more solid in my mind. There have been people who have noticed stuff that I did not see. YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE!

I did not expect everyone to have mature, helpful, insightful and brand new considerations and comments. When I did this I went in knowing full well all that was coming. I have gotten a lot from it. I thank everyone for responding EVEN THOSE WHO ONLY HAD THINGS TO SAY THAT I ALREADY KNEW. As I said before, I am very humble about my game, you can just throw up a comment on there saying “you suck” and I would tell you “I know” and that I am just trying to suck less.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tony_in_MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JJ

I would suggest you try a few things.

1. Slow down your backstroke

2. Before the final stoke, pause the cuetip at the cueball This will allow you time to make that final decision to pull the trigger or not. If you are ready pull the trigger, if not get up and cycle through your preshot routine again.

You can also try to implement a pause at the end of the backstroke (like Buddy Hall) to help slow things down if you are rushing your stroke. </div></div>

Thanks Tony, I am trying to implement a slow backswing into my game. I think this is the best way to stop or at least limit the “rush of the delivery stroke”. It has apparently been a problem of mine for some time so it may take a little more time to correct than I 1st anticipated.

I tried the pause at the end of the backswing. I have seen a few pro’s use it, Alison says it’s the thing that makes her great. There is a whole “family” of BCA instructors (as I understand it) that teach set, pause and finish (SPF). I have tried it and it is not for me (at this time, but I always keep the door open)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thats the thing I dont like about video. Anyone can make themselves look good filming a runout. Putting up a bad rack or 2.....now that takes balls.

JJ if there are only 10 guys in your area that can beat you badly, find one of em to shoot with(alot). Take the beating, and eventually you will win. Nothing wrong with teaching beginners, but thats not gonna improve your game. I cant think of one B level player, or better....who got to be that good on his/her own(drills or no drills). </div></div>

Thanks Bambu, I don’t quite know how to take the 1st paragraph. I will just guess it is not directed to me because I tried to put up the whole video but it was rejected by Youtube for its length. I have some bad video and some good video but this is just the most current. Video from a year to a year and a half ago I don’t consider relevant.

I know that playing players that are better than I is one sure way to get better I do whenever the opportunity arises and I make a conscious attempt to make it arise; especially playing them for money, also taking some professional lessons is a good way to get better.

I am going to have to disagree with you on the teaching others how to play is not going to improve your game, at least for me. When most people think of “teaching the game” what comes to mind is (usually) playing with someone, giving them pointers, showing them some drills and commenting on their strategy; showing them the “right shot” to take and telling them why. Some of these people think they are really great at teaching the game also, I consider that really funny.

What I do is completely different than that I have a progressive program to teach a person how to play, in other words; most people who “teach” this game don’t know what they are going to be “teaching” their student next week. I know what I am going to be teaching my student next month and next year. My program is much like learning anything that is taught well, it is not just session by session “instruction” about what you are doing wrong, it has a start and a finish. My program takes (usually) somewhere between 5 months and 2 ½ years to complete. This depends on; dedication to outside assignments (this used to be book study but is now reading articles and watching videos), frequency of sessions (the under 1yr people always meet with me more than once a week), age (younger people ALMOST always complete in a shorter period of time) and of course talent.

Teaching others and many of these people are not beginners in fact most are low level league players that want to get better. Has been a lesson for me to check my fundamentals and really solidify them, been a monetary gain from pool instead of a loss (very important to me) as well as been very satisfying. Taking a person that has been playing for a while and never able to move forward past the average league player and then taking them to the next level for me has kept pool alive in my world; and that in and of itself helps me to get better. I hear so many that say they haven’t gotten any better in a long time because they have become stale. So I can say teaching beginners will not help most; but that’s because they don’t really know how to teach.

Well a true big thank you to everyone that has contributed to this thread. A special thanks to Fran for suggesting it in the 1st place and to Spiderman for telling me how to do it. I thank you all mostly for your time in trying to help me that, in and of itself is noteworthy to me. I think I will try to do this again sometime in the future when I think I have taken a real step forward.

Tony_in_MD
09-26-2011, 04:45 AM
I am one of those (BCA - SPF instructors). Have you tried working with one in the past, or did you try to implement this on your own?

If you ever make it to Maryland look me up. From time to time I make it up to NW PA, as my wife's family is from Oil City PA.

There is also a pool school taught by Randy G. in Frederick MD the end of October.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tony_in_MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JJ

I would suggest you try a few things.

1. Slow down your backstroke

2. Before the final stoke, pause the cuetip at the cueball This will allow you time to make that final decision to pull the trigger or not. If you are ready pull the trigger, if not get up and cycle through your preshot routine again.

You can also try to implement a pause at the end of the backstroke (like Buddy Hall) to help slow things down if you are rushing your stroke. </div></div>

Thanks Tony, I am trying to implement a slow backswing into my game. I think this is the best way to stop or at least limit the “rush of the delivery stroke”. It has apparently been a problem of mine for some time so it may take a little more time to correct than I 1st anticipated.

I tried the pause at the end of the backswing. I have seen a few pro’s use it, Alison says it’s the thing that makes her great. There is a whole “family” of BCA instructors (as I understand it) that teach set, pause and finish (SPF). I have tried it and it is not for me (at this time, but I always keep the door open)


</div></div>

JJFSTAR
09-26-2011, 06:48 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tony_in_MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am one of those (BCA - SPF instructors). Have you tried working with one in the past, or did you try to implement this on your own? </div></div>

I implemented it on my own. Does this automatically discount the validity of it? 99.99% of the people who would teach this way would say unequivocally yes. I am very open to new ideas and as I have stated many times in this thread I am quite reasonable and humble about my game. I also sometimes use language that could be construed as “short” or “curt”. I actually am polite, levelheaded and even tempered. I don’t get out of town much but I would definitely be open to some professional instruction. I sincerely hope that you and I can have 100% positive dialogue on this subject. I look forward to discussing it with you.

Tony_in_MD
09-26-2011, 04:05 PM
Anytime you try something new it will be uncomfortable. The key is to work this into a practice regime that allow you to focus on the task at hand, and that has a way for you to chart and grade your progress. This is not something that you can just implement as you play, for it will fail.

Basically you are breaking an old habit, and creating a new one to replace it. That may take a month of work, at 30-40 minutes a day of practice.

I don't know how you tried to implement this, but I know it takes a big commitment to make change like that in your delivery. You have just got to see the need to do it and commit to it.

johnnylester211
09-27-2011, 03:15 AM
Greetings, I'm johnny lester Recently from Kansas, originally from Kansas City and have lived there most of my life.

I have a great free time,I really enjoy all cold weather , specially the Fall and with all its colors.

Technology has been a part of my life for the last 7 years and most recently primarily on the Web.

I seem to be drawn to technology and love all the high tech gadgets out there.

Things as they are, more and more people are seeking help from people who have walked the walk and can teach others how to benefit from their experience. Message me if you need my help


I am a consultant in the field of Science and Engineering project management.


I have my websites ,The best china products found here &lt;a href="http://www.asianprosource.com"&gt;china supplier&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href="http://www.asianprosource.com"&gt;sourcing china&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href="http://www.asianprosource.com"&gt;china manufacturing&lt;/a&gt;


I love to ask questions

I volunteer for valid causes that help children.

Glad to be a part of this Website and Will learn something new here.

johnnylester211
09-27-2011, 03:16 AM
china supplier (http://www.asianprosource.com) - sourcing china (http://www.asianprosource.com) - china manufacturing (http://www.asianprosource.com)

JJFSTAR
09-27-2011, 10:58 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tony_in_MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anytime you try something new it will be uncomfortable. The key is to work this into a practice regime that allow you to focus on the task at hand, and that has a way for you to chart and grade your progress. This is not something that you can just implement as you play, for it will fail.

Basically you are breaking an old habit, and creating a new one to replace it. That may take a month of work, at 30-40 minutes a day of practice.

I don't know how you tried to implement this, but I know it takes a big commitment to make change like that in your delivery. You have just got to see the need to do it and commit to it.
</div></div>

Thanks Tony,
Because this particular system works so well for so many I tried it. Yes this is exactly how I tried to implement it into my pre-shot routine. I took a month and when I drilled I inserted the pause, then I took another month and inserted the set. Then I took another month to put it all together. During that time I stopped all competitive play as well as playing for money entirely. I felt that was necessary so I could focus completely on what I call “Lab”.

I found that my pause had an indeterminate length of time; this was my biggest problem with that particular system. Another minor thing for me was that since I do an address already to burn into my mind exactly where I am going to strike the CB, that a secondary address before the final backswing (this is a “set” as I understand it) only served to have yet another break between my warm-up/feel strokes and the delivery stroke.

I have been playing with my pre-shot routine now for what seems like forever as I said to Spiderman:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Spiderman: yes I am aware of this problem and thank you for reminding me of it. I have even come up with a name for it. I call it “Rushing the delivery stroke”. In my practice sessions I have made an effort to integrate a “slow pull back” to take care of this problem. But what is helpful about what you said is that it drives home more clearly just how insidious the problem is and the total affect it has on my game. When teaching the teacher has to speak to the person who really controls the game and that’s not Johns conscious it is his sub-conscious, this is really helpful thanks.

I actually used to not rush the delivery stroke so often because I had a longer pre-shot routine. It used to be more like address, strokex4, slow pull back, deliver and freeze. Then I noticed that when I really seemed to be on “A” game my stroke #’s fell to 2’s and 3’s and so I dropped a couple of warm-up/feel strokes from my routine and my eye patterns sharpened up and my game went up. And I figured this is good because (generally speaking) “the more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain”.

But 2 things happened that were bad. I rushed more of my delivery strokes AND I also had the tendency to “outrun myself” more often (playing too quickly for my level) and blow the end of a really high percentage run. I am making an effort to reintegrate that slow pull because not only does it help define the transition between the backswing and delivery stroke which reduces the tendency to rush the delivery but it also helps with the occasional “chicken wing”.
</div></div>

As you probably saw in the videos the integration of the “slow pull back” is a work in progress. I actually am doing an SPF of sorts but it is Set-up/Pull/Freeze. This reintegration of the “slow pull back” is new for me with the having dropped the couple of warm-up/feel strokes. It seems to be working for the most part but it still has a really long way to go because when I am playing this transition problem is probably my biggest problem.

Well thanks again Tony and if I ever am in MD or am planning to go there I will PM you and try to set up a lesson or 2 depending on time constraints. I have deemed you one of the people to listen to on this board because you gave me the benefit of the doubt on how I tried to implement SPF.

I think I will stick to my pre-shot for now at least until I really develop some true consistency with what I am working on right now before I go back to “The Lab”. I have only been trying the “slow pull back” for less than 6 months and, as you can see I have not been 100% successful in making it a consistent part of my pre-shot routine. I would appreciate you in particular to go over my videos again and see if there is anything else in there that you see. Trained and experienced instructors can IMHO help the most. Well see you around on this board.

Tony_in_MD
09-27-2011, 04:27 PM
As a professional educator there are some specific things built into the SPF training method that are well grounded in educational research. This is one of the things that really attracted me to their methodology.

You did some of what they teach, but I believe there were some aspects of this that you could have done better that would have helped you in the incorporation of this change into your game. That is to be expected when you try to pick something up on your own. I know how difficult that can be. I bought a DVD on CTE aiming, and for the life of me after trying this, I think I am the stupidest person on the planet. I have watched that DVD a dozen time, tried the shots and I just don't get it. I cannot get past focusing on a contact point. Someday I will hookup with Stan, I think working with him directly will help me in the understanding of this system.

My offer stands, and I will take a look at your video some more. There were a few shots that I saw your cuetip end up on a line that seemed odd to me, but I need to look at it again. One of them was in the first game where you had a long cutshot into the bottom corner at 1:05. Tell me, are you using BHE, that could explain what I observed.

Fran Crimi
09-28-2011, 08:33 AM
Just curious, have you tried to imitate Rodney yet, or have you decided not to do it?

JJFSTAR
09-30-2011, 08:26 AM
Of course I am going to try to, when someone of your caliber says I should do something it would be nutty no to. There is only one night of the week that I play casually and that is Sunday, all the Dee’s teams come down to shoot and I missed last week. The rest of the week I am either teaching or competing. I have compiled all the video I could find and have been watching them. I am really looking forward to “being Rodney”. But I didn’t want to just try this in competition at the outset and as I said last week I missed my “casual night of play”.

One thing is for sure we do have one thing in common. The owner of the bar I play for has been saying this for a long time “you would do better to give Johnny a spot than get him down, he likes to come from behind”. What he means when he tells people this is that the farther down I am the better I play. To some extent this seems to be the case. So yes I will be “being Rodney” on Sunday and I will let you know what happens.

I suspect that I will be doing a lot of running into secondary OB’s and scratching a lot (that’s why I asked you if he is a billiard player or not) he seems to have the ability to direct the CB along very tight paths, and it doesn’t seem to matter much if he hits thick or thin, and uses lots and lots of rails sometimes when it is not entirely necessary; this is usually indicative of people who have played a lot of 3cusion billiards. I think I will be having more fun playing and have less trepidation given that I am going to be imitating someone who has a lot of fun and virtually no fear. I also think that given his rhythm my games are going to go a lot faster. What will be hard about that is (I think) not telling my self “hurry up” because Rodney does take some time in complex positions. Well like I said I will let you know.

Fran Crimi
09-30-2011, 04:21 PM
Good. Don't try to judge it yet, just imitate. I developed this technique of imitation from working with actors in preparation for their pool shooting roles in films and TV. There isn't enough time to teach them properly, and since they're experts at imitation, I would play the role of the character shooting pool for them and then would have them imitate me. It worked with Pacino in "Carlito's Way," Oliver Platt in "Diggstown," Patrick Dempsey in I forget the film and many others.

My favorite was an obscure film called "Looking for an Echo" with Diane Venora who early in the film goes on a date with Armand Assante and has to run out a rack of 8 ball. I had two weeks to teach her how to do it and she never held a cue. The day of the shoot the director was a wreck, but I was confident. Actors are great imitators. I just had her imitate me over and over and on the day of the shoot, while cast and crew were prepared for a grueling day, she surprised them all and ran out in two takes (I had pre-positioned the balls on the table for her), all the while having a conversation with her date. They had budgeted 6-8 hours for the shoot and we were done in just an hour.

I started to use that technique in working with players, and would assign certain players to study and imitate certain pros, thanks to Youtube. They love it and it really helps their games and I think it gives them a different perspective in that it takes you out of our own head. But there needs to be a real reason for it, not just some arbitrary thing.

JJFSTAR
10-04-2011, 11:10 AM
Thanks Fran that was very interesting. It kind of disembodies you and allows you to have some deep focus that is not “of yourself” so to speak. I might just try this tonight and I will definitely try this next week.