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cushioncrawler
09-28-2011, 06:24 PM
Faster-than-light neutrino claim bolstered

21:15 23 September 2011 by Lisa Grossman
Read more: "Neutrinos: Complete guide to the ghostly particle"

Representatives from the OPERA collaboration spoke in a seminar at CERN today, supporting their astonishing claim that neutrinos can travel faster than the speed of light.

The result is conceptually simple: neutrinos travelling from a particle accelerator at CERN in Switzerland arrived 60 nanoseconds too early at a detector in the Gran Sasso cavern in Italy. And it relies on three conceptually simple measurements, explained Dario Autiero of the Institute of Nuclear Physics in Lyon: the distance between the labs, the time the neutrinos left Switzerland, and the time they arrived in Italy.

But actually measuring those times and distances to the accuracy needed to detect differences of billionths of a second (1 nanosecond = 1 billionth of a second) is no easy task.

Details, details

"These are experiments where the devil is in the details – the details of how each piece of equipment works, and how it all goes together," said Rob Plunkett of Fermilab in Batavia, Illinois.

The detector in the Gran Sasso cavern is located 1400 metres underground. At that depth Earth's crust shields OPERA (which stands for Oscillation Project with Emulsion-tRacking Apparatus) from noise-inducing cosmic rays, but also obscures its exact latitude and longitude. To pinpoint its position precisely, the researchers stopped traffic in one lane of a 10-kilometre long highway tunnel for a week to place GPS receivers on either side.

The GPS measurements, which were so accurate they could detect the crawling drift of the planet's tectonic plates, gave precise benchmarks for each side of the tunnel, allowing the researchers to triangulate the underground detector's position in the planet. Combining that with the known position of the neutrino source at CERN gave a distance of 730,534.61 metres, plus or minus 20 centimetres.

To determine exactly when the neutrinos left CERN and arrived at Gran Sasso, the team hooked both detectors to caesium clocks, which can measure time to an accuracy of one second in about 30 million years. That linked the labs' timekeepers to within one nanosecond.

"These kinds of techniques that we have been using are maybe unusual in high energy physics, but they are quite standard in metrology," Autiero said. Just to be sure, the collaboration had two independent metrology teams from Switzerland and Germany check their work. It all checked out.

The researchers also accounted for an odd feature of general relativity in which clocks at different heights keep different times.

A ‘beautiful experiment'

Other physicists are impressed."This is certainly very precise timing, more than you need to record for normal accelerator operations," Plunkett told New Scientist. His project, the MINOS experiment at Fermilab, has already requested an upgrade to their timing system so they can replicate the results, perhaps as soon as 2014.

"I want to congratulate you on this extremely beautiful experiment," said Nobel laureate Samuel Ting of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge during the question and answer session that followed Autiero's talk. "The experiment is very carefully done, and the systematic error carefully checked."

But only time will tell whether the result holds up to additional scrutiny, and whether it can be reproduced . There is still room for uncertainty in the neutrinos' departure time, Plunkett says, because there is no neutrino detector on CERN's end of the line. The only way to know when the neutrinos left is to extrapolate from data on the blob of protons used to produce them.

"Of course we need to approach it sceptically," he says. "I believe everyone will be pulling together to figure this out."

cushioncrawler
09-28-2011, 06:44 PM
Hmmmmm -- thinx.
1. There probly aint no such thing az a neutrino.
2. It might mean that C iz bigger than thort -- ie C iz slowed by stuff, ie stuff that duznt slow neutrinos -- ie empty space iznt empty, it haz lots of stuff.
3. If neutrinos kan be faster than C, then Einstein iz wrong -- and of course Einstein iz wrong, ie Special Relativity iz wrong, and General Relativity iz wrong.
4. The neutrino speed woz measured in one direktion -- whereaz C (ie photons) haz allways been measured in two (or more) directions.
5. Michelson haz shown that there iz no such thing az C -- ie C varies with sidereal time.
6. Which all tends to bring us closer to what mac sez, ie aether rules, ie Einstein (Mrs Einstein aktually) woznt korrekt.
7. Apparently scientists are happy for gravity waves to hav infinite speed (or gravity radiation or gravity fields or gravity something).
mac.

cushioncrawler
09-28-2011, 06:47 PM
8. What iz the speed of neutrinos in the other direktion.
Aether iz waiting patiently.

Qtec
09-29-2011, 09:27 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. There probly aint no such thing az a neutrino. </div></div>

Well, there is and there isn't. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Q

Sev
09-29-2011, 11:10 AM
Direction is relative.

llotter
09-29-2011, 04:27 PM
I predicted this very thing about a sub-atomic particle so it comes as no surprise to me. I wrote Einstein in the late 50s outlining my thoughts and he couldn't stop laughing.

Soflasnapper
09-29-2011, 05:09 PM
But only time will tell whether the result holds up to additional scrutiny, and whether it can be reproduced . There is still room for uncertainty in the neutrinos' departure time, Plunkett says, because there is no neutrino detector on CERN's end of the line. The only way to know when the neutrinos left is to extrapolate from data on the blob of protons used to produce them.

This is the bottom line for all novel experimental findings.

They may be important, even revolutionary, but as of their first report, they are nothing but preliminary reports. IF THEY ARE REPLICATED BY OTHERS, then they will have firmer standing as scientific results going forward. Otherwise, they may end up as star exhibits in the Journal of Unreproducible Results, and never become accepted by scientists.

That is true in this case, in the cosmic ray CERN experiment case, and in the supposed 'NASA' findings concerning re-radiation of solar energy back into space instead of sticking around to warm up the planet.

NONE of these has yet been reproduced, so stand quite short of accepted findings. I mention the others, since some uncritical thinkers here and in the blogosphere touted those others as sure-bet new scientific findings, when they are only in the baby-step category and far short of actual science findings, to date.

However, I'll note something I haven't read anywhere concerning THIS particular finding. Seems to me that given the nature of the special relativistic equations (the Lorentz-Fitzgerald contraction in length and time dimensions), faster than light particles might be showing negative time, and therefore come from the future.

Meaning we'll all eventually have access to a future century almanac of sporting event results, and be able to essentially make unlimited money at the sports book. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

cushioncrawler
09-29-2011, 10:08 PM
There kan be no negativ time, mainly koz there iz no universal time. Lynds explains this.

However, i beleev in aether -- but others who beleev in aether suggest that aether and universal time go hand in hand -- so it looks like i am in a very small club, and thusly i am unlikely to havta share my Nobel Prize (if i get one).
mac.

cushioncrawler
09-29-2011, 10:25 PM
Dayton Miller's Ether-Drift
Experiments: A Fresh Look*
by James DeMeo, Ph.D.
Director, Orgone Biophysical Research Lab, Greensprings, PO Box 1148, Ashland, Oregon 97520 USA. Tel/Fax: 541-552-0118 E-mail to: info(at)orgonelab.org This article Copyright (C) 2002, All Rights Reserved by James DeMeo.

"The effect [of ether-drift] has persisted throughout. After considering all the possible sources of error, there always remained a positive effect." — Dayton Miller (1928, p.399)

"My opinion about Miller's experiments is the following. ... Should the positive result be confirmed, then the special theory of relativity and with it the general theory of relativity, in its current form, would be invalid. Experimentum summus judex. Only the equivalence of inertia and gravitation would remain, however, they would have to lead to a significantly different theory."
— Albert Einstein, in a letter to Edwin E. Slosson, 8 July 1925 (from copy in Hebrew University Archive, Jerusalem.) See citations below for Silberstein 1925 and Einstein 1926.

"I believe that I have really found the relationship between gravitation and electricity, assuming that the Miller experiments are based on a fundamental error. Otherwise, the whole relativity theory collapses like a house of cards."
— Albert Einstein, in a letter to Robert Millikan, June 1921 (in Clark 1971, p.328)

"You imagine that I look back on my life's work with calm satisfaction. But from nearby it looks quite different. There is not a single concept of which I am convinced that it will stand firm, and I feel uncertain whether I am in general on the right track."
— Albert Einstein, on his 70th birthday, in a letter to Maurice Solovine, 28 March 1949 (in B. Hoffman Albert Einstein: Creator and Rebel 1972, p.328)

cushioncrawler
09-29-2011, 10:29 PM
In his 1933 paper, Miller published the most comprehensive summary of his work, and the large quantity of data which supported his conclusions. A total of over 200,000 individual readings were made, from over 12,000 individual turns of the interferometer, undertaken at different months of the year, starting in 1902 with Edward Morley at Case School in Cleveland, and ending in 1926 with his Mt. Wilson experiments. These data do not include many rigorous control experiments undertaken at Case School Physics Department from 1922 to 1924. More than half of Miller's readings were made at Mt. Wilson using the most sophisticated and controlled procedures, with the most telling set of experiments in 1925 and 1926. By contrast, we can mention here, the original Michelson-Morley experiment of 1887 involved only six hours of data collection over four days (July 8, 9, 11 and 12 of 1887), with a grand total of only 36 turns of their interferometer. Even so, as shown below, <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Michelson-Morley originally obtained a slight positive result which has been systematically ignored or misrepresented by modern physics.</span> As stated by Michelson-Morley:

"...the relative velocity of the earth and the ether is probably less than one-sixth the earth's orbital velocity, and certainly less than one-fourth. ... The experiment will therefore be repeated at intervals of three months, and thus all uncertainty will be avoided." (Michelson-Morley 1887)

cushioncrawler
09-29-2011, 10:34 PM
Debates with Einstein
There are several newspaper accounts indicating a certain tension between Albert Einstein and Dayton Miller, since the early 1920s at least. In June of 1921, Einstein wrote to the physicist Robert Millikan: "I believe that I have really found the relationship between gravitation and electricity, assuming that the Miller experiments are based on a fundamental error. Otherwise, the whole relativity theory collapses like a house of cards." (Clark 1971, p.328) Privately, in letters and in spoken words, there was a struggle going on for philosophical dominance, and occasionally this struggle surfaced into public view:

GOES TO DISPROVE EINSTEIN THEORY
Case Scientist Will Conduct
Further Studies in Ether Drift.
Einstein Discounts Experiments
Speaking before scientists at the University of
Berlin, Einstein said the ether drift experiments
at Cleveland showed zero results, while on Mount
Wilson they showed positive results. Therefore,
altitude influences results. In addition, temperature
differences have provided a source of error.
"The trouble with Prof. Einstein is that he knows
nothing about my results." Dr. Miller said. "He has
been saying for thirty years that the interferometer
experiments in Cleveland showed negative results. We
never said they gave negative results, and they did
not in fact give negative results. He ought to give
me credit for knowing that temperature differences
would affect the results. He wrote to me in November
suggesting this. I am not so simple as to make no
allowance for temperature."
(Cleveland Plain Dealer newspaper, 27 Jan. 1926)

The above newspaper account is significant, as it demonstrates that Einstein was pushing the "thermal artifact" argument against Miller's results as early as 1926. There are other accounts of Einstein's discontent with Miller's results in "Conversations with Albert Einstein" written by Robert Shankland in the years after Miller's death. (Shankland 1963, 1973b)

cushioncrawler
09-29-2011, 11:07 PM
Miller's work, which ran from 1906 through the mid-1930s, most strongly supports the idea of an ether-drift........ the Earth was drifting at a speed of 208 km/sec. towards an apex in the Southern Celestial Hemisphere, towards Dorado, the swordfish, right ascension 4 hrs 54 min., declination of -70° 33', in the middle of the Great Magellanic Cloud and 7° from the southern pole of the ecliptic. (Miller 1933, p.234) This is based upon a measured displacement of around 10 km/sec. at the interferometer, and assuming the Earth was pushing through a stationary, but Earth-entrained ether in that particular direction, which lowered the velocity of the ether from around 200 to <span style='font-size: 14pt'>10 km/sec</span>. at the Earth's surface.......

Michelson, Pease, Pearson 1929.... One fifteenth of 300 km/sec. is <span style='font-size: 14pt'>20 km/sec</span>., a result the authors dismissed as they apparently had discarded the concept of an Earth-entrained ether, which would move more slowly closer to sea level.

A similar result of <span style='font-size: 14pt'>24 km/sec</span>. was achieved by the team of Kennedy-Thorndike in 1932, however they also dismissed the concept of an entrained ether and, consequently, their own measured result: "In view of relative velocities amounting to thousands of kilometers per second known to exist among the nebulae, this can scarcely be regarded as other than a clear null result". This incredible statement serves to illustrate how deeply ingrained was the concept of a static ether.

Michelson, Pease and Pearson went on to make speed-of-light measurements in a one mile long partially-evacuated steel tube lying flat on the ground, oriented roughly southwest to northeast. While the purpose of these experiments was not to measure any ether-drift or variation in the speed of light, such variations in fact were observed and reported in their paper. (Michelson, Pease, Pearson 1935) A newspaper account of these experiments, published after Michelson's death in 1931 but prior to their final publication of results reported: "Dr. Pease and Mr. Pearson say the entire series of measures, made mostly between the hours of 7 and 9 PM, show fluctuations which suggest a [variation] of about <span style='font-size: 14pt'>20 kilometers per second</span>." (Dietz 1933) Miller commented on these results, suggesting they would have measured a stronger ether-drift variation if they had taken their interferometers outside of the basement structures and steel pipes:

cushioncrawler
09-29-2011, 11:16 PM
OPERA in effekt sayd that the neutrinos were 20 parts in 1000000 faster than light, ie 1 in 50,000, ie <span style='font-size: 14pt'>6km/s</span>, ie neutrinos = 306km/s while C in vacuum = 299.8km/s.
mac.

cushioncrawler
09-29-2011, 11:21 PM
If the angle of the neutrinos' flightpath woz at an angle to the earths's flightpath throo the aether, ie at an angle to the sidereal target, then that <span style='font-size: 14pt'>6km/s </span>might blow out to <span style='font-size: 14pt'> 10km/s</span> or even more.
mac.

cushioncrawler
09-29-2011, 11:50 PM
OPERA shows that the qu'ran haz an error??????
mac.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Moslems (Muslims) believe that angels are low density creatures, and that God created them originally from light. They move at any speed from zero up to the speed of light. It is the angels who carry out God's orders. Those angels take their orders from a Preserved Tablet somewhere in outer space, and not from God's Throne. They commute to and from this Preserved Tablet to get their orders from God. In the following verse, the Quran describes how angels travel when they commute to and from this Tablet. And the speed at which they commute to and from this Tablet turned out to be the known speed of light:

[Quran 32.5] (Allah) Rules the cosmic affair from the heavens to the Earth. Then this affair travels to Him a distance in one day, at a measure of one thousand years of what you count.

It is the angels who carry out these orders (see Arabic wording at footnote [1]). Those people back then measured the distances neither in kilometers nor in miles but rather by how much time they needed to walk. For example, a village two days away meant a distance equivalent to walking for two days; ten days away meant a distance equivalent to walking for ten days... However in this verse the Quran specifies 1000 years of what they counted (not what they walked). Those people back then followed the lunar calendar and counted 12 lunar months each year. These months are related to the moon and not related to the sun. Hence in 1 day the angels will travel a distance of 1000 years of what they counted (the moon). Since this verse is referring to distance, then God is saying that angels travel in one day the same distance that the moon travels in 12000 lunar orbits. Outside gravitational fields this speed turned out to be the known speed of light.</div></div>