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LWW
10-01-2011, 12:15 PM
... where does it end?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WASHINGTON - Late Friday, the White House turned over new documents in the Congressional investigation into the ATF "Fast and Furious" gunwalking scandal.

The documents show extensive communications between then-ATF Special Agent in Charge of the Phoenix office Bill Newell - who led Fast and Furious - and then-White House National Security Staffer Kevin O'Reilly. Emails indicate the two also spoke on the phone. Such detailed, direct communications between a local ATF manager in Phoenix and a White House national security staffer has raised interest among Congressional investigators looking into Fast and Furious. Newell has said he and O'Reilly are long time friends.

Newly-released White House documents (pdf)

ATF agents say that in Fast and Furious, their agency allowed thousands of assault rifles and other weapons to be sold to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels. At least two of the guns turned up at the murder scene of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry last December.

ATF Manager says he shared Fast and Furious with the White House

The email exchanges span a little over a month last summer. They discuss ATF's gun trafficking efforts along the border including the controversial Fast and Furious case, though not by name. The emails to and from O'Reilly indicate more than just a passing interest in the Phoenix office's gun trafficking cases. They do not mention specific tactics such as "letting guns walk."

A lawyer for the White House wrote Congressional investigators: "none of the communications between ATF and the White House revealed the investigative law enforcement tactics at issue in your inquiry, let alone any decision to allow guns to 'walk.'"

ATF Fast and Furious: Who at the White House knew?

Among the documents produced: an email in which ATF's Newell sent the White House's O'Reilly an "arrow chart reflecting the ultimate destination of firearms we intercepted and/or where the guns ended up." The chart shows arrows leading from Arizona to destinations all over Mexico.

Newell email (09.03.10) (pdf)
Arizona Gunrunner Impact Team chart (pdf)

In response, O'Reilly wrote on Sept. 3, 2010 "The arrow chart is really interesting - and - no surprise - implies at least that different (Drug Trafficking Organizations) in Mexico have very different and geographically distinct networks in the US for acquiring guns. Did last year's TX effort develop a similar graphic?"

O'Reilly email (09.03.10) (pdf)

The White House counsel who produced the documents stated that some records were not included because of "significant confidentiality interests."

(Credit: CBS) Also included are email photographs including images of a .50 caliber rifle (left) that Newell tells O'Reilly "was purchased in Tucson, Arizona (part of another OCDTF case)." OCDTF is a joint task force that operates under the Department of Justice and includes the US Attorneys, ATF, DEA, FBI, ICE and IRS. Fast and Furious was an OCDTF case.

An administration source would not describe the Tucson OCDTF case. However, CBS News has learned that ATF's Phoenix office led an operation out of Tucson called "Wide Receiver." Sources claim ATF allowed guns to "walk" in that operation, much like Fast and Furious.

Congressional investigators for Republicans Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) and Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) have asked to interview O'Reilly by September 30. But the Administration informed them that O'Reilly is on assignment for the State Department in Iraq and unavailable.

One administration source says White House national security staffers were "briefed on the toplines of ongoing federal efforts, but nobody in White House knew about the investigative tactics being used in the operation, let alone any decision to let guns walk."</div></div>

JUMPING BUTTERBALLS! (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20114184-10391695.html)

Soflasnapper
10-01-2011, 12:51 PM
As is usual, here we find rampant speculation roaring ahead of any facts in evidence.

These are not new revelations here. They were known as of the last time this subject was put on this board. These documents released do not advance the facts known already in the slightest degree, at least as this reporting goes.

What it shows is not pre-knowledge, or that this whole thing was planned at the WH/Office of the National Security Advisor level. What it appears to show instead is that well after these things were in place, PERHAPS some knowledge of the program was shared to a lower-level NSC staffer. Or perhaps NOT, as the WH lawyer has said that no revelation concerning the tactic in question (gun-walking) was communicated in this ex parte kind of discussions of old friends. That claim will be scrutinized by Issa and Republican senators who are not friendly with or supporters of the Obama administration, as it should be, under our system of Congressional oversight of executive branch actions requirements.

Qtec
10-01-2011, 12:59 PM
Really, is this all you got.

They ALREADY have more guns than they need,

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/08/19/article-1304465-0AD72783000005DC-377_634x413.jpg

BLING (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1304465/The-men-golden-guns-Mexican-museum-displays-vulgar-array-weaponry-confiscated-drug-lords.html)

Q......you don't behead someone with a gun.

LWW
10-01-2011, 01:26 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As is usual, here we find rampant speculation roaring ahead of any facts in evidence. </div></div>

What did I speculate?

LWW
10-01-2011, 01:28 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Really, is this all you got.

They ALREADY have more guns than they need,

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/08/19/article-1304465-0AD72783000005DC-377_634x413.jpg

BLING (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1304465/The-men-golden-guns-Mexican-museum-displays-vulgar-array-weaponry-confiscated-drug-lords.html)

Q......you don't behead someone with a gun.

</div></div>

In a few months I've watched you go from total denial that this happened to be totally fine that it did.

Why is that?

Soflasnapper
10-01-2011, 04:27 PM
What did I speculate?

It has long been your stated position that obviously both Obama and Holder knew of this, must have known of this, and in fact, AUTHORED the program themselves, to create a gun selling scandal and broadly restrict gun rights as a result.

Now you are trumpeting that this evidence shows it reaches 'to the White House,' and insinuating it is evidence showing the involvement and knowledge of Obama and Holder.

But the reach 'to the WH' is to a mid-level staffer in the NSA office, well after the program was underway. This does not show what you've claimed in the past, nor what you refer to by your question.

LWW
10-01-2011, 05:55 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What did I speculate? </div></div>

That's what I asked you?

LWW
10-01-2011, 05:58 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It has long been your stated position that obviously both Obama and Holder knew of this, must have known of this, and in fact, AUTHORED the program themselves, to create a gun selling scandal and broadly restrict gun rights as a result.</div></div>

Then you should be able to show me where I stated this opinion ... but, you can't.

I have stated that it needs a thorough investigation and that it would reach to the White House ... and it has.

I have stated that Obama was on record saying he had something working "OFF THE RADAR" ... and this was.

Just because if Obama signed a confession you would insist it was an impostor doesn't change the facts as they have unfurled.

LWW
10-01-2011, 05:59 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now you are trumpeting that this evidence shows it reaches 'to the White House,' and insinuating it is evidence showing the involvement and knowledge of Obama and Holder.</div></div>

That's because it did and it does,

LWW
10-01-2011, 06:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But the reach 'to the WH' is to a mid-level staffer in the NSA office, well after the program was underway. This does not show what you've claimed in the past, nor what you refer to by your question. </div></div>

This is simply precious coming from someone who insists that Orville Reddenbacher flew George Bush to Paris in a magic plane to negotiate a release of the hostages.

ugotda7
10-01-2011, 08:00 PM
Nothing to see here.....after all, according to the leftist shills here the administration isn't doing anything along the lines of gun control - well, except conducting a massive conspiracy to lay the groundwork for manufactured hysteria to create a political base from which to implement gun control measures.

eg8r
10-01-2011, 11:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It has long been your stated position that obviously both Obama and Holder knew of this, must have known of this, and in fact, AUTHORED the program themselves, to create a gun selling scandal and broadly restrict gun rights as a result.
</div></div>We will never know if they were involved or not but with the way the two nutjob lefites on this board reacted towards Bush it is only fair that their guy be responsible for every single thing his administration does. Do you disagree?

eg8r

Soflasnapper
10-02-2011, 07:00 PM
according to the leftist shills here the administration isn't doing anything along the lines of gun control

That would actually be 'according to the record of the proposals of the WH and the actions they've supported in Congress' the administration isn't doing anything along the lines of gun control.

Soflasnapper
10-02-2011, 07:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It has long been your stated position that obviously both Obama and Holder knew of this, must have known of this, and in fact, AUTHORED the program themselves, to create a gun selling scandal and broadly restrict gun rights as a result.
</div></div>We will never know if they were involved or not but with the way the two nutjob lefites on this board reacted towards Bush it is only fair that their guy be responsible for every single thing his administration does. Do you disagree?

eg8r </div></div>

Of course I disagree.

False statements are not justified because they are directed at a couple of persons you think have done the same thing.

They are still false.

It is NOT true that leaders of a group are responsible for the errors or even crimes of the members of their group, unless they ordered or approved those errors or crimes. (Is a chief of police responsible for individual patrolmen yielding to temptation to take a bribe from a private source? Or rather, to clean that up when it becomes known?)

What they are responsible for is firing or disciplining those parties, and then reviewing processes in order to prevent similar errors or crimes from occurring again.

Fact is, ATF is somewhat of a rogue law enforcement bureau, as their misbegotten raid at Waco demonstrates very clearly. They like to get all paramilitary, and do show piece actions to demonstrate why they deserve their budget.

Gayle in MD
10-03-2011, 06:54 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It has long been your stated position that obviously both Obama and Holder knew of this, must have known of this, and in fact, AUTHORED the program themselves, to create a gun selling scandal and broadly restrict gun rights as a result.
</div></div>We will never know if they were involved or not but with the way the two nutjob lefites on this board reacted towards Bush it is only fair that their guy be responsible for every single thing his administration does. Do you disagree?

eg8r </div></div>

What a crock of total Bull****!

We didn't have to dig around to find the Bush/Cheney lies, and unprecedented law breaking, they had the incredible gall, to display all of it right out in the open, and then spoon feed a willing group of irrational deniers, to create a fantasy world of justifications for them, after the fact.

Literally hundreds of books, by respected journalists, Federal Prosecutors, current and former, documented their obvious law breaking and lies, and hundreds of patriotic, law abiding, credible whistle blowers, called them out for eight years, throughout, you and yours lived in a humongous RW State Of Denial.

Don't try to compare the FACT that the right creates propaganda, and presents it as fact, as a overall policy, to we on the left, having to defend all of the lies and propaganda that is created as truth, and is in fact, really nothing but more RW slander and Bull****!

Just reading the thread titles on this forum, is proof of that.

G.