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JJFSTAR
10-11-2011, 01:20 PM
So how DO YOU go about it? We have all tried to run tables we shouldn’t have until we smartened up. Most of us have seen fellow team members try and run out when getting BIH would have been a 99.99% likelihood and from BIH it would have been easy for them. Most of us have had the good fortune to have someone try to run on us when we thought we would come to the table being a recipient of a nasty safe but come to the table with a very makeable shot, good shot or duck. How do you get your friends, lower level players, teammates and the like become better safety players? All comments and posts welcome.

Sid_Vicious
10-11-2011, 05:05 PM
First off, the force to a new thread wasn't something I'd have forced...trend in the last thread was fine, and you did open it yourself. Nuff said. Basic reasons to play safe are rather easy at "leson 1" stage. If your student can't answer more than 50% 0f the time, "Yes I can get somewhere in the region of the next ball"...then it is time to play safe. Most new players gain lots just by long distance leaves, and those are rather easy to teach. They should be easy to teach most times as well with that simple question about them getting position at all. Jm2c. sid

Bambu
10-12-2011, 07:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So how DO YOU go about it? We have all tried to run tables we shouldn’t have until we smartened up. Most of us have seen fellow team members try and run out when getting BIH would have been a 99.99% likelihood and from BIH it would have been easy for them. Most of us have had the good fortune to have someone try to run on us when we thought we would come to the table being a recipient of a nasty safe but come to the table with a very makeable shot, good shot or duck. How do you get your friends, lower level players, teammates and the like become better safety players? All comments and posts welcome.</div></div>


I usually walk them through a couple of racks of defensive shots, just to give them an idea of how to spot a good safety. Start with easy ones like stop shots or ball in hand roll up safeties...then progress towards ball separation.

Only real way to learn though, is the same way everyone else did. Get beat, badly. And for a looooong time.

Rich R.
10-12-2011, 07:32 AM
The first thing you have to do is get the less experienced players to think about safeties on an equal basis as any other good shot. Most low level players want to attempt shots regardless of how difficult, or even hopeless, the situation is. Once you get them to think about safeties, then you can instruct them on different ways to lock up their opponents.

On the league level, I get players to think about safeties by taking time outs and coaching them to play safeties. When a good safety leads to a game win, I'm sure to point that out. After a while, they begin to see that you can win a game by playing a good safety.

JJFSTAR
10-12-2011, 10:40 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The first thing you have to do is get the less experienced players to think about safeties on an equal basis as any other good shot. </div></div>

Give that man a cigar!!! This is the first big hurdle to get over, and what a big one it is. Sometimes it isn’t just the less experienced players who have this problem. I am continually amazed at the level and experience of the player that will not acquiesce to this simple idea. From as little as “showing weakness” to as much as “utter immorality” the idea of the negative connotations of the safety seems to permeate the pool player psyche.

For most people who begin the strategic part of my course it is somehow “better” to loose a game after taking on offensive shot than a defensive one. You must first destroy this idea. This is why I think this question is so closely tied to the “odds” question. If you look at it from a purely (or as close as you can come) statistical standpoint the better your chances are of coming up with the best play.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most low level players want to attempt shots regardless of how difficult, or even hopeless, the situation is. Once you get them to think about safeties, then you can instruct them on different ways to lock up their opponents.</div></div>

Couldn’t have said it better myself in fact I think you said it better than I generally do.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> On the league level, I get players to think about safeties by taking time outs and coaching them to play safeties. When a good safety leads to a game win, I'm sure to point that out. After a while, they begin to see that you can win a game by playing a good safety. </div></div>

I do to when I am playing in TAP however in the West Penn Pool League, saying anything directly to your team mate at any time is a foul.

How I have had the most success in teaching the safety is to:

1. Destroy the “safeties are ___” idea, through big long conversations; that they take as much talent, skill and thought as any other shot.
2. Get them to regurgitate all of the “rules of thumb” about safety play.
3. Get them to play safeties, when they play safeties; with the same respect and tenacity as any other shot (btw this helps more than most people who are just “showing other people the game” think.)
4. Get them to calculate the “odds factors” and ask themselves when they come to the table what the best chances are to win the game.
5. Play a lot of one-pocket with them.
6. Show them my flow chart; I just draw this out for my students. I started actually doing this on the computer yesterday; I will post it if anyone is truly interested.

Soflasnapper
10-14-2011, 02:16 PM
All the replies are good, and I agree with them.

I'd add or amplify that it's very important to convince your players that safety play is the mark of a smarter player, and emphasize that a smarter player can beat a better shooter (or will more easily beat a comparable shooter).

Buddy Hall has an older tape/dvd called 'How do you win from here?' It's an hour of emphasizing the power of gaining ball in hand with a lockup safe, and over and over again, he explains the odds of winning are so often several times greater with the proper safety than trying a difficult shot or when there's difficult shape afterwards.

Not sure it's possible to force everyone to view this, or that it would actually do the job if viewed.

How about SHOWING the person the value of the safety, by playing more safeties on them in practice? The lesson would be reinforced by explaining what you just did and why. (Not sure how you and your team practice in warming up, but our team mainly shoots at everything in those warm ups. No reason that safeties couldn't be emphasized as part of that practicing.)

Lastly, and maybe this isn't a good idea, but captains can enforce certain kinds of play by exercising the power of the lineup, and more often sitting player who more or less blows a game opportunity by shooting out instead of taking the obvious safe.

bluey2king
10-14-2011, 02:41 PM
I bring it up every time I see them shoot themself's into "One Ball Hell". Meaning I watch them run the easy shots and get hung up on the hardest ball, and now the dont have anything to work with ie balls to help with the breakout or a good safety. We have a good SL/2 on out team and she is learning quickly, much faster than the SL/5 on our team.

JJFSTAR
10-16-2011, 03:24 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All the replies are good, and I agree with them.

I'd add or amplify that it's very important to convince your players that safety play is the mark of a smarter player, and emphasize that a smarter player can beat a better shooter (or will more easily beat a comparable shooter). </div></div>

Yup I said this just not quite in this way.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Buddy Hall has an older tape/dvd called 'How do you win from here?' It's an hour of emphasizing the power of gaining ball in hand with a lockup safe, and over and over again, he explains the odds of winning are so often several times greater with the proper safety than trying a difficult shot or when there's difficult shape afterwards. </div></div>

That’s where this series started explaining that it is an odds game.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about SHOWING the person the value of the safety, by playing more safeties on them in practice? The lesson would be reinforced by explaining what you just did and why. </div></div>

This is (to an extent) how most people try to teach other people how to play and I think it is backwards. What you’re trying to do is to teach someone how to add by telling them that 1 + 15 = 16 and 151 + 30 = 181 and expecting them to come up with addition. IMHO it is a better idea to teach them the formula and telling them to apply it. Sometimes this is a good idea but it has limited use.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lastly, and maybe this isn't a good idea, but captains can enforce certain kinds of play by exercising the power of the lineup, and more often sitting player who more or less blows a game opportunity by shooting out instead of taking the obvious safe. </div></div>

I don’t think players would understand this unless it is spelled out by the captain and I think most players would just get defensive about their choice and if the captain set-up the balls and tried to explain it to the player the player would tell the captain that the balls were not there, I have been through this a lot.