PDA

View Full Version : 9-9-9 update



Soflasnapper
10-16-2011, 01:20 PM
Looking a bit more into this matter, I find the 9-9-9 idea was better thought out, and more credible, that I had previously considered it.

Turns out that Mr. Cain was a math major, and asked some professionals to do a regression analysis, as to what same three digit numbers of those 3 taxes would raise the same amount of money as the current system (to be thereby revenue neutral).

His REAL economic advisor, who said he wouldn't have structured the plan this way, still confirmed the plan was sound, although at slightly higher numbers than stated. He said the actual numbers should have been 9.1-9.1-9.1. Ok, very close then, slightly lower, but for the obvious reason of simplifying the plan.

At the same time, the early scoring that found the plan would raise only 50% of the current system was found to be in error on the corporate tax side, and that claim has been revised.

However, the regression analysis was performed on a model of the economy from '08. Just as the current system in place has tanked in its revenues relative to that year, so too would Cain's suggested alternative, but worse, now scored at about a $200 billion dollar deficit in raising revenues now compared to the current tax code in place.

Since the Cain plan does not eliminate state sales taxes, only federal taxes, among other problems, it still has many disqualifying disadvantages, in my opinion. That poorer and middle income people will see about a 27% tax on all their income (as they need to spend all their income-- so 9+9-- plus have the corporate tax also put over as a transfer to consumers-- +9% more-- PLUS owe the remaining state and local sales taxes).

As the Cain plan does not allow the current tax deductibility of wages and benefits, employers will find employees more expensive, even though their FICA/MC payroll tax 7.65% match is eliminated.

Overall, the impact will be to harm consumer buying (by making it more expensive), and harm employment (by making it more expensive to businesses), and harm anyone below the top bracket (by substantially raising their tax burdens).

Bottom line, then: Not as ill-founded and arbitrary, nor as revenue-losing, as I first had been convinced, but still an undesirable plan.

The rookie at government, having no experience at it at all at any level, elected or appointed, Mr. Cain, misunderstanding how this all works, has tried to say he can prevent future Congresses from simply raising his 9s to 12s, for example. He is profoundly mistaken on that matter, as no Congress can bind a future Congress, apart from passing a Constitutional amendment that is fully ratified. And even then, such an amendment can be itself amended by the same process.

eg8r
10-16-2011, 05:32 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The rookie at government, having no experience at it at all at any level, elected or appointed, Mr. Cain, misunderstanding how this all works,</div></div>Considering his education is equal or higher to yours and he has done more in business than what we have read about you doing, I am going to take a stab in the dark that his resume is better than yours. On top of that I see you do your darndest to disprove all "numbers" or at least cast a shadow of doubt when the object is set forth by a Republican yet you have not said a single negative thing about Obama telling us his jobs bill (actually a tax bill) has already been paid for by using the new rich tax he wants to implement. The money Obama says will come in from that tax is based on static figures going out in the future based on what the CBO sees happening now. They don't reflect any dynamic changes at all, for example rich people doing what rich people do like sheltering their money overseas so that this new tax doesn't affect them.

Why do you go out of your way to poke holes in a plan presented by a Republican but I don't believe I have seen one post from you about Obama's tax plan and how it might "fall short"?

Also, being a rookie at government did not bother you guys when you voted for Obama so why do you feel the need to mention it about Cain? You guys all told us that experience in government wasn't important? If you cared one iota about experience then McCain would have been the only logical choice.

eg8r

Qtec
10-16-2011, 06:26 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Considering his education is equal or higher to yours and he has done more in business than what we have read about you doing, I am going to take a stab in the dark that his resume is better than yours. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WASHINGTON -- GOP presidential candidate Herman Cain <u>raised more questions about his knowledge of foreign policy</u> on Sunday, saying <span style='font-size: 17pt'>he doesn't know anything about the "neoconservative movement," which dominated the eight years of the Bush administration.</span>



On "Meet the Press" Sunday morning, host David Gregory asked Cain who has shaped his views on foreign policy.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>"I've looked at the writings of people like Amb. John Bolton," </span>replied Cain. "I've looked at the writings of Dr. Henry Kissinger -- KT McFarland, someone I respect."

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>Bolton was one of the most hawkish figures of the Bush administration,</span> serving as the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. He repeatedly pushed for striking Iran, and in 1994, he famously said, "If the U.N. secretary building in New York lost 10 stories, it wouldn’t make a bit of difference."

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>"I'm not familiar with the neoconservative movement,"</span> admitted Cain. </div></div>

Has this guy been asleep for the last decade?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WASHINGTON -- On Friday, Herman Cain responded to The Huffington Post's analysis of the similarities between his "999" economic plan and the default tax rate in "SimCity 4," saying he did not get the idea from the video game.

In a video aired Friday night on "The Rachel Maddow Show," a reporter asked Cain whether he had spent some time in the world of arcologies and flying lizards. "You said you had original ideas, successful people around you thinking ideas up," the reporter said while questioning Cain about the "999" plan. "Is it an original idea or modeled after a game?"

"It's an original idea, and for people to say it's modeled after a game -- it's a lie,"

In "SimCity 4," the default tax rate is 9 percent for commercial taxes, 9 percent for residential taxes and 9 percent for industrial taxes. In Herman Cain's America, the corporate income tax rate would be 9 percent, the personal income tax rate would be 9 percent and the national sales tax rate would be 9 percent. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">GOP presidential hopeful Herman Cain came down hard on immigration Saturday on the campaign trail, telling crowds in Tennessee that part of his policy would be to build an electrified fence on the Mexican border that could potentially kill anyone trying to enter the country illegally.

He backed away from that proposal Sunday morning, however, saying he wasn't serious about the idea.

"That's a joke, David," he told NBC's David Gregory on "Meet The Press." "That's not a serious plan. </div></div>

Nutjob Cain,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just got back from China. Ever heard of the Great Wall of China? <span style="color: #990000">LOL</span> It looks pretty sturdy. And that sucker is real high. <u>I think we can build one if we want to</u>! </div></div>



Yeah, sounds like a real intellectual.

Q

eg8r
10-16-2011, 06:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">GOP presidential candidate Herman Cain raised more questions about his knowledge of foreign policy</div></div>You of all people need to shut up the most on this subject. If you even had a stick in the fire you would have chosen Obama who had zero knowledge about foreign policy. If you cared then like you purport to care now then McCain would have been your guy. So on the "experience" front it is best for the hypocrites to shut up.

eg8r

Qtec
10-16-2011, 06:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cain has vehemently protested that his plan would raise taxes on the poorest Americans (in part by saying they will just shift their consumption to used goods, which are exempted from his proposed nine percent sales tax). But today, Cain finally admitted to NBC’s David Gregory that some Americans would, in fact, pay more in taxes under his plan due to the sales tax. But Cain think those people will demand that 999 get implemented anyway:

CAIN: There is a huge amount of public support for 999. Just talk to anybody. This is what’s going to help us get it passed. The public support.

GREGORY: I just want to break that down. So you’re acknowledging this morning, which I haven’t heard you do before, that there are individuals who are going to pay more in taxes.

CAIN: There are some, yes.

GREGORY: <span style='font-size: 14pt'>And you think those people are going to rally around tax reform where the wealthy pay less and middle-class and lower-income folks pay more.

CAIN: Yes.</span> </div></div>

Cain is a moron. Good job has has ZERO chance of ever becoming POTUS.

Q

Qtec
10-16-2011, 06:59 PM
Cain the job creator.
w<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">His successes at Burger King prompted Pillsbury to appoint him president and CEO of another subsidiary, Godfather's Pizza. Cain arrived on April 1, 1986, and told employees, "I'm Herman Cain and this ain't no April Fool's joke. We are not dead. Our objective is to prove to Pillsbury and everyone else that we will survive."[19] Aiming to cut costs, Cain, <span style='font-size: 17pt'>over a 14-month period, reduced the company from 911 stores to 420.</span> As a result of his efforts, Godfather's Pizza became profitable </div></div>

Q

LWW
10-17-2011, 04:22 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looking a bit more into this matter, I find the 9-9-9 idea was better thought out, and more credible, that I had previously considered it.

Turns out that Mr. Cain was a math major, and asked some professionals to do a regression analysis, as to what same three digit numbers of those 3 taxes would raise the same amount of money as the current system (to be thereby revenue neutral).

His REAL economic advisor, who said he wouldn't have structured the plan this way, still confirmed the plan was sound, although at slightly higher numbers than stated. He said the actual numbers should have been 9.1-9.1-9.1. Ok, very close then, slightly lower, but for the obvious reason of simplifying the plan.

At the same time, the early scoring that found the plan would raise only 50% of the current system was found to be in error on the corporate tax side, and that claim has been revised.

However, the regression analysis was performed on a model of the economy from '08. Just as the current system in place has tanked in its revenues relative to that year, so too would Cain's suggested alternative, but worse, now scored at about a $200 billion dollar deficit in raising revenues now compared to the current tax code in place.

Since the Cain plan does not eliminate state sales taxes, only federal taxes, among other problems, it still has many disqualifying disadvantages, in my opinion. That poorer and middle income people will see about a 27% tax on all their income (as they need to spend all their income-- so 9+9-- plus have the corporate tax also put over as a transfer to consumers-- +9% more-- PLUS owe the remaining state and local sales taxes).

As the Cain plan does not allow the current tax deductibility of wages and benefits, employers will find employees more expensive, even though their FICA/MC payroll tax 7.65% match is eliminated.

Overall, the impact will be to harm consumer buying (by making it more expensive), and harm employment (by making it more expensive to businesses), and harm anyone below the top bracket (by substantially raising their tax burdens).

Bottom line, then: Not as ill-founded and arbitrary, nor as revenue-losing, as I first had been convinced, but still an undesirable plan.

The rookie at government, having no experience at it at all at any level, elected or appointed, Mr. Cain, misunderstanding how this all works, has tried to say he can prevent future Congresses from simply raising his 9s to 12s, for example. He is profoundly mistaken on that matter, as no Congress can bind a future Congress, apart from passing a Constitutional amendment that is fully ratified. And even then, such an amendment can be itself amended by the same process. </div></div>

You didn't really just post that did you?

You don't actually believe that do you?

C'mon ... which branch of the state ran media spoon fed you this nonsense?

cushioncrawler
10-17-2011, 04:40 AM
SOUND. A tax iznt necessaryly sound just koz on paper it will bring in a nice looking amount of dollars. What makes a tax sound iz that.....

A. The tax iz eezy to kollekt (ie not costly, and not eezyly avoided).
B. The tax wont unduly affekt good produktion and good consumption in the long term.
C. The tax iz fair to poor and rich.
D. The tax duznt hav a bad effekt on imports and exports.

I would be surprized if 999 passes test C. If 999 duznt pass C, then it iz unlikely to get a good skore for B and D.
mac.

Yeah, the corporate tax shood hav been based on gross sales.

LWW
10-17-2011, 05:17 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SOUND. A tax iznt necessaryly sound just koz on paper it will bring in a nice looking amount of dollars. What makes a tax sound iz that.....

A. The tax iz eezy to kollekt (ie not costly, and not eezyly avoided).
B. The tax wont unduly affekt good produktion and good consumption in the long term.
C. The tax iz fair to poor and rich.
D. The tax duznt hav a bad effekt on imports and exports.

I would be surprized if 999 passes test C. If 999 duznt pass C, then it iz unlikely to get a good skore for B and D.
mac.

Yeah, the corporate tax shood hav been based on gross sales. </div></div>

It passes A with flying colors, whilst our current system does not as incentive and ability to cheat have largely been removed.

It passes B with flying colors, whilst our current system does not as our retail prices will fall and exports will soar.

It passes C at least as well as our current system.

It passes D with flying colors on exports, whilst our current system does not as our exports will soar being that we will be the only nation on Oit without a buttload of nutjob taxes embedded into the price of our exports.

It passes D with flying colors on imports, whilst our current system does not as our dollars will return home and more companies will have incentive to base here.

LWW &lt;--- Actually studied the 9-9-9.

hondo
10-17-2011, 06:41 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The rookie at government, having no experience at it at all at any level, elected or appointed, Mr. Cain, misunderstanding how this all works,</div></div>Considering his education is equal or higher to yours and he has done more in business than what we have read about you doing, I am going to take a stab in the dark that his resume is better than yours. On top of that I see you do your darndest to disprove all "numbers" or at least cast a shadow of doubt when the object is set forth by a Republican yet you have not said a single negative thing about Obama telling us his jobs bill (actually a tax bill) has already been paid for by using the new rich tax he wants to implement. The money Obama says will come in from that tax is based on static figures going out in the future based on what the CBO sees happening now. They don't reflect any dynamic changes at all, for example rich people doing what rich people do like sheltering their money overseas so that this new tax doesn't affect them.

Why do you go out of your way to poke holes in a plan presented by a Republican but I don't believe I have seen one post from you about Obama's tax plan and how it might "fall short"?

Also, being a rookie at government did not bother you guys when you voted for Obama so why do you feel the need to mention it about Cain? You guys all told us that experience in government wasn't important? If you cared one iota about experience then McCain would have been the only logical choice.

eg8r </div></div>

He looks into it.
You don't.
He tries to understand it.
You don't.
Just another clueless partisan post from you, eg.
Grow up!
I've been trying to follow it.
More of the same Republican mindset.
Increase taxes on middle clas. Give the rich a pass.
Do you, Eg, have any facts to dispute what I just said?

hondo
10-17-2011, 06:46 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">GOP presidential candidate Herman Cain raised more questions about his knowledge of foreign policy</div></div>You of all people need to shut up the most on this subject. If you even had a stick in the fire you would have chosen Obama who had zero knowledge about foreign policy. If you cared then like you purport to care now then McCain would have been your guy. So on the "experience" front it is best for the hypocrites to shut up.

eg8r </div></div>

More substance, less insults, Eg.
Are you intellectually capable of doing that?
Why not analyze the message rather than your usual, " My guys are smarter than you are, so shut up" posts?

hondo
10-17-2011, 06:47 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SOUND. A tax iznt necessaryly sound just koz on paper it will bring in a nice looking amount of dollars. What makes a tax sound iz that.....

A. The tax iz eezy to kollekt (ie not costly, and not eezyly avoided).
B. The tax wont unduly affekt good produktion and good consumption in the long term.
C. The tax iz fair to poor and rich.
D. The tax duznt hav a bad effekt on imports and exports.

I would be surprized if 999 passes test C. If 999 duznt pass C, then it iz unlikely to get a good skore for B and D.
mac.

Yeah, the corporate tax shood hav been based on gross sales. </div></div>

It doesn't pass C.

Qtec
10-17-2011, 06:50 AM
Cain on meet the press. link to video (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032608/vp/44921014#44921014)

Its the 'Fair Tax' wrapped up in BS.

Its a gift to the 1%, designed to perpetuate and increase the growing inequality.

Q...also, this plan gives the impression that these are all the taxes you will have to pay. It doesn't account for EXTRA taxes, state taxes!

Qtec
10-17-2011, 06:59 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It doesn't pass C.</div></div>

Hey, as long as the 1% increase their wealth and control over Govt, who cares?

When the USA was at its height, the MC had money to spend and it drove the economy. The wealth was spread and everyone benefited.
Now, most of the wealth has risen to the top, not trickled down, and you see the result.

Today, the bottom 80% own just 7% of the wealth.

http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/4e94610d6bb3f7f76d000019-547/so-what-does-all-this-mean-in-terms-of-net-worth-well-for-starters-it-means-that-the-top-1-of-americans-own-42-of-the-financial-wealth-in-this-country-the-top-5-meanwhile-own-nearly-70.jpg



Q

hondo
10-17-2011, 07:09 AM
That's what I'm reading.

Qtec
10-17-2011, 08:26 AM
I don't gamble on the stock market. [ its rigged. ]
I own no shares in any bank that has been bailed out. I don't dabble in MBS or CDSs.

The RW Christian Dutch Govt has just told me I have to work 2 more years if I want to qualify for a full pension!

No kidding!

Why?

Q

eg8r
10-17-2011, 08:42 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been trying to follow it.</div></div>Oh jeesh, I sure hope sofla doesn't confide in you. What a disaster.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Increase taxes on middle clas. Give the rich a pass.
Do you, Eg, have any facts to dispute what I just said? </div></div>That is not how it works honduh. You have to provide the facts to prove what you say. I don't mind seeing you run your mouth but it is all a lie till you prove it.

eg8r

eg8r
10-17-2011, 08:43 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">More substance, less insults, Eg.
Are you intellectually capable of doing that?</div></div>Another ignorant honduh post. I bet you don't even see the hypocrisy of your post.

eg8r

eg8r
10-17-2011, 08:45 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Our objective is to prove to Pillsbury and everyone else that we will survive."[19] Aiming to cut costs, Cain, over a 14-month period, reduced the company from 911 stores to 420. As a result of his efforts, Godfather's Pizza became profitable </div></div>OK, so this it is OK in your eyes to fire public servants to save $1 million but bad for Cain to do it to save the jobs of thousands of employees. You really are a hypocritical schmuck.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
10-17-2011, 09:35 AM
Considering his education is equal or higher to yours and he has done more in business than what we have read about you doing, I am going to take a stab in the dark that his resume is better than yours.

Morehead State = Princeton University? I question that. Did Cain get perfect SAT board scores? Probably not, or we'd likely have heard about it by now. If he didn't, then he didn't beat mine. Same with the GRE test.

I am not making an idle insulting remark when I mention Cain is apparently ignorant about many things in our system of government, geopolitics, and the like. I am referring to his several missteps we've seen already.

He didn't know a religious test is barred by the Constitution, and suggested he'd use one for his appointees? (No Moslems need apply?) I knew he'd stepped in that one immediately upon hearing his remark. He only learned of it later, and he had to take a strategic retreat at some cost to his image.

Upon Chris Wallace's question about the key Middle East issue of the Palestinian's right of return, Cain showed he had no idea of this topic whatsoever.

Now he's flailing around to fashion some 'guarantee' that future Congresses cannot jack up his 9s to 12s, and again shows he doesn't understand that is impossible?

I don't dispute he's far more accomplished in business than I am, even if I have a greater net worth from my businesses than he has. (Not sure that's true, but it could be.)

But in his pursuit of business excellence, he appears to have neglected his general knowledge of our civics, world geopolitics, and many other subjects, as most focused and driven persons do neglect many and even most topics unrelated to their direct goals. A single-minded focus is how they excel so much in their field, which costs them a lot of other topics left by the wayside, unexamined and unlearned.

Soflasnapper
10-17-2011, 09:44 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You didn't really just post that did you?

You don't actually believe that do you?

C'mon ... which branch of the state ran media spoon fed you this nonsense?</div></div>

Yes I did, yes I do, and everything said there is accurate.

If not, what do you flag as incorrect?

eg8r
10-17-2011, 10:20 AM
Great, you spent an entire post defending yourself but you missed the meat of my post. Care to respond to that?

eg8r

Soflasnapper
10-17-2011, 12:51 PM
It's true that Obama was a little short on experience going into the Oval Office. However, that experience included being an Illinois state senator, and being a US senator. That was in addition to his education in political science from Columbia, with a concentration on international affairs.

In other words, Obama was far more prepared about our system of government, and foreign affairs, by serving in government, and having that educational background, than can be credibly claimed for Cain. And Cain shows his ignorance in this regard repeatedly.

As for skepticism about Obama's economic plans, he hasn't kept the scoring of economists independent of his administration secret, but has rather put forward all his proposals for CBO scoring (and independent business economists' scoring). Whether they use static or dynamic scoring, I don't know, but a) whatever they do is the STANDARD method (if you want to compare apples to apples) and b) they have the experience of the Clinton '90s economy to compare to by reference (to dynamic effects).

Moreover, he didn't come up with some non-mainstream economic theory or program. What his critics fail to understand, or refuse to mention perhaps more likely, is that everything he did was MacroEcon 101 advice based on the dominant economic theory extant. I saw a piece from Greg Mankiew, former economics advisor to W iirc, in which he stated that fact directly.

In Cain, you have a candidate that has never done politics (although as president, he'd have to gain passage of his ideas through Congress if they are to take effect). You have a candidate who has never done public policy apart from politics, and who has never apparently had a single thought or any direct interest in foreign affairs.

And a candidate who, when asked a pertinent detail about his economic plan, stated, 'I have no idea.'

So the question to you would be, you now want to put in ANOTHER INEXPERIENCED man into the highest office of the land? Really?

hondo
10-17-2011, 01:15 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been trying to follow it.</div></div>Oh jeesh, I sure hope sofla doesn't confide in you. What a disaster.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Increase taxes on middle clas. Give the rich a pass.
Do you, Eg, have any facts to dispute what I just said? </div></div>That is not how it works honduh. You have to provide the facts to prove what you say. I don't mind seeing you run your mouth but it is all a lie till you prove it.

eg8r </div></div>

More insults. No substance. I think I'll try to ignore you.
I can find no value in any discussion with you.

eg8r
10-17-2011, 01:59 PM
I find no value in your opinion so I choose not to discuss with you. Your post to me had no value and was not a discussion but rather it was you trying to put words in my mouth. I also find it hilarious that you throw out complete lies and then want me to dispute them. That might be a game you played with your students but out in the real world that doesn't fly.

eg8r

eg8r
10-17-2011, 02:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's true that Obama was a little short on experience going into the Oval Office. However, that experience included being an Illinois state senator, and being a US senator. That was in addition to his education in political science from Columbia, with a concentration on international affairs.</div></div>You are darn right it is true, I don't lie. What you fail to mention is that even though he was a Senator he chose to not vote more often than he did vote. On one of those rare occasions where he did vote he chose to send money to build the bridge to nowhere instead of sending it as aid to hurricane relief victims. Now based on his college studies, are you going to start allowing college courses as "experience" in real world applications? No way on Earth do you get that pass. LOL, an education in political science? That is "experience" enough for you yet Cain's major is math isn't? Give me a break.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In other words, Obama was far more prepared about our system of government, and foreign affairs, by serving in government, and having that educational background, than can be credibly claimed for Cain.</div></div>I refuse to sit back and allow you to hypocritically make this case when McCain blew Obama out of the water and you guys told us experience was not an issue and did not matter.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for skepticism about Obama's economic plans, he hasn't kept the scoring of economists independent of his administration secret, but has rather put forward all his proposals for CBO scoring (and independent business economists' scoring). Whether they use static or dynamic scoring, I don't know, but a) whatever they do is the STANDARD method (if you want to compare apples to apples) and b) they have the experience of the Clinton '90s economy to compare to by reference (to dynamic effects).
</div></div>I am not asking you about the process, as surely you are aware they can only use static models. I am asking you why you don't work as hard to poke holes in their logic when they have been wrong on nearly every estimation they have put forth since Obama took office.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Moreover, he didn't come up with some non-mainstream economic theory or program. </div></div>OK, so if it is mainstream then you don't forth any effort? Or if it is considered "mainstream" and "pushed by a Dem" you don't forth the effort?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have a candidate who has never done public policy apart from politics, and who has never apparently had a single thought or any direct interest in foreign affairs.</div></div>This is only you guessing. You have no idea what he has "thought" about or had interest in.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So the question to you would be, you now want to put in ANOTHER INEXPERIENCED man into the highest office of the land? Really? </div></div>Well, I could take both your arguments from the last time and spit them on the window and see which one sticks the longest...1)I don't care who is in office but it cannot be someone from the incumbents party. 2)Experience doesn't matter at all, look at how good he can speak. Take your pick.

I personally would select a hero in the business world, especially one that resurrected large failing companies back to prosperity over a do-nothing senator better known as a community organizer

eg8r

Soflasnapper
10-17-2011, 04:07 PM
I refuse to sit back and allow you to hypocritically make this case when McCain blew Obama out of the water and you guys told us experience was not an issue and did not matter.

McCain was too old to make it through his first term, most likely. He's the one who threw away the 'experience' card, with his VP pick. It was a non-starter once he did that (in his aged condition, 4 or 5 bouts with melanomas, and he'd be taking the office at the same age Reagan left it at after his 8 years).

More importantly, McCain's experience seems to have left him in a perpetual state of rage, wanting to start wars. (Remember, 'we are all Georgians now!'? He wanted to go to war with Russia, which would not have been a good idea.) On this point, I rely on his Republican Senate colleagues' assessments. Thad Chochran said (publicly) that having McCain with his finger on the button (so-called) made his blood run cold. We do not need presidents with anger management issues.

As for relying on the gold standards of economic prediction, yes, for want of a better measure, I'll take the CBO or the Joint Committee on Taxation. Do they miss the mark at times? Yes, and that's a common problem with things in the future.

Do they always over-estimate tax receipts from the tax code? Not at all. They estimated continuing deficits in the $100 billion range into the later '90s, when instead we saw them shrink to zero and go into surplus.

Do they always underestimate the costs of programs? Not at all. They overestimated the cost of Medicare Part D, and it came in at a sharply lower figure.

Right now, Obama's new plan has been scored by CBO and independent economists to likely create 2 million jobs, and boost the gdp by 2 percentage points. What will Cain's plan achieve in these or any other credible scorings?

He hasn't put forward enough details for this scoring to occur. And it's a three-bank shot. The 9-9-9 is the SECOND change in the system (on its way to the third and final actual program he wants put in). I notice he hasn't said much about the FIRST change, and has instead touted this temporary second program, while also leaving out much discussion of the third one.

Only a man without experience in the legislative process would make such a jerry-rigged, Rube Goldberg-type scheme proposal. Why? Because he has no idea how difficult it will be to get just ONE such major change through to law, let alone the next two.

ugotda7
10-17-2011, 05:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's true that Obama was a little short on experience going into the Oval Office. However, that experience included being an Illinois state senator, and being a US senator. That was in addition to his education in political science from Columbia, with a concentration on international affairs.

In other words, Obama was far more prepared about our system of government, and foreign affairs, by serving in government, and having that educational background, than can be credibly claimed for Cain. And Cain shows his ignorance in this regard repeatedly.

As for skepticism about Obama's economic plans, he hasn't kept the scoring of economists independent of his administration secret, but has rather put forward all his proposals for CBO scoring (and independent business economists' scoring). Whether they use static or dynamic scoring, I don't know, but a) whatever they do is the STANDARD method (if you want to compare apples to apples) and b) they have the experience of the Clinton '90s economy to compare to by reference (to dynamic effects).

Moreover, he didn't come up with some non-mainstream economic theory or program. What his critics fail to understand, or refuse to mention perhaps more likely, is that everything he did was MacroEcon 101 advice based on the dominant economic theory extant. I saw a piece from Greg Mankiew, former economics advisor to W iirc, in which he stated that fact directly.

In Cain, you have a candidate that has never done politics (although as president, he'd have to gain passage of his ideas through Congress if they are to take effect). You have a candidate who has never done public policy apart from politics, and who has never apparently had a single thought or any direct interest in foreign affairs.

And a candidate who, when asked a pertinent detail about his economic plan, stated, 'I have no idea.'

So the question to you would be, you now want to put in ANOTHER INEXPERIENCED man into the highest office of the land? Really? </div></div>

Present.

eg8r
10-17-2011, 08:08 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for relying on the gold standards of economic prediction, yes, for want of a better measure, I'll take the CBO or the Joint Committee on Taxation. Do they miss the mark at times? Yes, and that's a common problem with things in the future.</div></div>Miss the mark at times? Why aren't you even trying to be honest? They miss the mark nearly every time. It is a common problem when you are forced to start with flawed logic. One thing the left has trouble with is accepting the fact that the rich respond intelligently to new taxes and the CBO prediction figures are rarely if ever correct in reference to revenue through taxation of the rich. There is a reason they are rich and it is not due to inheritance or stupidity. They made their money by being smart and doing smart things with their money. Take Warren Buffet for example, he rails about how the rich need to be taxed more yet every year he takes his full deductions and does everything he can to not pay one penny in tax that is not required. There is never any outrage towards him by the left even though he is basically laughing at the poor.

Then when the CBO estimates fall incredibly short the Dems then try the class warfare card by telling the poor that the rich are stealing money from them by moving money and jobs overseas where they can keep it to themselves. Mind you this is all done in accordance with our tax law.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Right now, Obama's new plan has been scored by CBO and independent economists to likely create 2 million jobs, and boost the gdp by 2 percentage points. </div></div>Do me a favor and check and see if this is the same group that estimated Obama's stimulus bill and how it would save unemployment. If it is the same group then only an crazy person would believe they got their crap together this time and the last time was just a hiccup in their estimating prowess.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What will Cain's plan achieve in these or any other credible scorings? </div></div>The only group that considers these "credible scorings" is the one in front of the bill. The CBO or the Joint Committee on Taxation are always wrong and hardly ever even close.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Only a man without experience in the legislative process would make such a jerry-rigged, Rube Goldberg-type scheme proposal. Why? Because he has no idea how difficult it will be to get just ONE such major change through to law, let alone the next two. </div></div>I guess you are speaking through Obama's experience. His stimulus was jerry-rigged right from the beginning.

eg8r

hondo
10-17-2011, 08:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I find no value in your opinion so I choose not to discuss with you. Your post to me had no value and was not a discussion but rather it was you trying to put words in my mouth. I also find it hilarious that you throw out complete lies and then want me to dispute them. That might be a game you played with your students but out in the real world that doesn't fly.

eg8r </div></div>

SSDD. YAWN. Goodbye, eg.

eg8r
10-17-2011, 08:28 PM
Is this another one of your lies about leaving the board?

eg8r

hondo
10-17-2011, 08:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this another one of your lies about leaving the board?

eg8r </div></div>

Poor ole dumbass eg can't read.

eg8r
10-17-2011, 09:20 PM
LOL, you are the one that said goodbye. Now you hypocritically attack. When will you ever learn. I swear the education in WV is better off since you quit.

eg8r

Qtec
10-18-2011, 12:22 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Considering his education is equal or higher to yours and he has done more in business than what we have read about you doing, I am going to take a stab in the dark that his resume is better than yours.

Morehead State = Princeton University? I question that. Did Cain get perfect SAT board scores? Probably not, or we'd likely have heard about it by now. If he didn't, then he didn't beat mine. Same with the GRE test. </div></div>

LOL. Nice one.

Also, if Cain knows nothing about the neo-conservatives, he's either lying, ignorant or a dumb as a bucket of hair. After all, his hero J Bolton is the biggest neo-con on the planet.

I think he's lying.



Q ...Cain is the Koch brother's boy.

Qtec
10-18-2011, 01:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, so this it is OK in your eyes to fire public servants to save $1 million </div></div>

I never said that.

Q

eg8r
10-18-2011, 08:36 AM
You absolutely did. Your praise for the government saving $1 million at the cost of those employees is all you needed to say.

eg8r

LWW
10-18-2011, 08:49 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I find no value in your opinion so I choose not to discuss with you. Your post to me had no value and was not a discussion but rather it was you trying to put words in my mouth. I also find it hilarious that you throw out complete lies and then want me to dispute them. That might be a game you played with your students but out in the real world that doesn't fly.

eg8r </div></div>

SSDD. YAWN. Goodbye, eg. </div></div>
http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/Graphics/107-0603154821-SouthPark-NotThisShitAgain.jpg

eg8r
10-18-2011, 09:05 AM
Exactly. This idiot has said "goodbye" so many times he probably thinks someone is actually listening to his lies. He can't leave simply because no one else wants him. We keep him here for levity. I mean seriously...this guy was actually an educator in WV and West Virgians get mad at us for their stereotypes? Hello, look at what you are doing to yourselves.

eg8r

hondo
10-18-2011, 06:32 PM
I said goodbye to your newfound asshole buddy eg and he thinks that means I'm leaving.
You 2 make a nice pair. Dumb and dumber.

ugotda7
10-18-2011, 11:13 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I said goodbye to your newfound asshole buddy eg and he thinks that means I'm leaving.
You 2 make a nice pair. Dumb and dumber. </div></div>

Don't go away mad.....just go away.

Qtec
10-19-2011, 12:35 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You absolutely did. Your praise for the government saving $1 million at the cost of those employees is all you needed to say.

eg8r </div></div>

Quote me because I don't remember saying that. What employees?

Q

LWW
10-19-2011, 03:53 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SOUND. A tax iznt necessaryly sound just koz on paper it will bring in a nice looking amount of dollars. What makes a tax sound iz that.....

A. The tax iz eezy to kollekt (ie not costly, and not eezyly avoided).
B. The tax wont unduly affekt good produktion and good consumption in the long term.
C. The tax iz fair to poor and rich.
D. The tax duznt hav a bad effekt on imports and exports.

I would be surprized if 999 passes test C. If 999 duznt pass C, then it iz unlikely to get a good skore for B and D.
mac.

Yeah, the corporate tax shood hav been based on gross sales. </div></div>

It doesn't pass C. </div></div>

Other than this is the "OPINION" you were spoon fed ... why doesn't it?

What's that?

You have no idea?

I didn't think so.

Qtec
10-19-2011, 04:36 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">COOPER: Herman Cain, I've got to give you 30 seconds, because she was referring to -- basically saying you were naive or if -- if that's what you were suggesting.

CAIN: No, I -- I said that I believe in the philosophy of we don't negotiate with terrorists. I think -- I didn't say --<u> I would never agree to letting hostages<span style="color: #CC0000">??</span> in Guantanamo Bay go.</u> No, that wasn't -- that wasn't the intent at all.
</div></div>

Earlier.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> BLITZER: Could you imagine if you were president…and there were one American soldier who had been held for years and the demand was al Qaeda or some other terrorist group, “You got to free everyone at Guantanamo Bay” – several hundred prisoners at Guantanamo. <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Could you see yourself as president authorizing that kind of transfer?
</span>
CAIN: <span style='font-size: 14pt'><u>I could see myself authorizing that kind of transfer</u> </span>but what I would do is I would make sure that I got all of the information. I got all of the input, considered all of the options. And then, the president has to be the president and make a judgment call. <span style='font-size: 14pt'>I can make that call if I had to. </span> </div></div>

Q

LWW
10-19-2011, 04:40 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I don't gamble on the stock market. [ its rigged. ]
I own no shares in any bank that has been bailed out. I don't dabble in MBS or CDSs.

The RW Christian Dutch Govt has just told me I have to work 2 more years if I want to qualify for a full pension!

No kidding!

Why?

Q </div></div>

Because they are broke from your socialist ideology having been implemented since WWII.

LWW
10-19-2011, 04:41 AM
I thought Obama was closing Gitmo 2 years ago?

Qtec
10-19-2011, 05:29 AM
He tried but the Republicans de-funded it.


Q

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When asked to name the economic experts who drew up his 9-9-9 plan, Cain would name only one: a Rich Lowrie of Cleveland, Ohio, <span style='font-size: 20pt'>who turns out to be a wealth management strategist for the Wells Fargo Bank.</span> So, one might imagine the plan to be <span style='font-size: 26pt'>a boon to those who have wealth to manage</span> </div></div>


LOL

Qtec
10-19-2011, 05:30 AM
Update.

This only gets better. LOL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Lowrie, according to his LInkedIn profile, served for three years on the advisory board of<span style='font-size: 20pt'> Americans For Prosperity, the Tea Party-aligned organization launched by billionaire David Koch, with which Cain is closely linked.</span></div></div>

Q

Qtec
10-19-2011, 05:34 AM
This is too much.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Questioned after the debate by Bloomberg's Margaret Brennan, Cain explained that his 9 percent national sales tax was not regressive for this reason: "If you look at it closely -- we had it evaluated using dynamic analysis -- prices don't go up. Plus, consumers have the option to stretch their dollar because of buying used goods versus new." <span style='font-size: 17pt'>So there's your new economic plan, Koch style: prices won't go up because I say so, but if they do, just buy the kids' school clothes in the Salvation Army. Srsly.</span> </div></div>

LOL...and this is the best the GOP have got?


LOL

Q...amazing

hondo
10-19-2011, 05:35 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SOUND. A tax iznt necessaryly sound just koz on paper it will bring in a nice looking amount of dollars. What makes a tax sound iz that.....

A. The tax iz eezy to kollekt (ie not costly, and not eezyly avoided).
B. The tax wont unduly affekt good produktion and good consumption in the long term.
C. The tax iz fair to poor and rich.
D. The tax duznt hav a bad effekt on imports and exports.

I would be surprized if 999 passes test C. If 999 duznt pass C, then it iz unlikely to get a good skore for B and D.
mac.

Yeah, the corporate tax shood hav been based on gross sales. </div></div>

From what I have read, those in the $50,000 range will see thir taxes increased 27 to 34 % while the rich will not be affected at at all.
Thus, it hardly passes C.

http://democratsforsale.blogspot.com/2011/10/cains-9-9-9-tax-reform-plan-will-hurt.html

Cain's '9-9-9' tax reform plan will hurt the poor and middle class



The more you read about Herman Cain's 9-9-9 Tax Reform Plan, the more you realize it is a gimmick for now and would open the door to more taxes not less. In fact, the two groups hurt the most by this plan are the poor and a lot of the middle class. Who benefits? The wealthy. There are not exemptions to the Cain sales tax plan so you when go buy a gallon of milk you can add on 9% and if you live in a state that taxes groceries, your 8.25% sales tax you are already paying is now going to be 17.25% to buy a gallon of milk. On my receipt from Walmart, I paid $8.27 in state/local sales tax and under the Cain plan I would be paying $15.09 on a bill that was $87.50. That means almost 1/5th of my bill would go to sales tax under the Cain plan.

Qtec
10-19-2011, 05:36 AM
I'm loving it!!


/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

There is always Michele B, the voice of reason..... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Michele Bachmann took her own shot at Cain's 9-9-9 plan: <span style='font-size: 14pt'>"When you take the 9-9-9 plan and you turn it upside down, I think the devil's in the details."</span> <u>An upside-down 999, of course, is 666 -- the mark of the Beast</u> in the New Testament Book of Revelation, a.k.a., the anti-Christ. <span style='font-size: 20pt'>Hmmm...naming the black guy in the race the anti-Christ. Seems we've heard that one before.</span> </div></div>


HaHaHaHa..............

Q

LWW
10-19-2011, 05:37 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SOUND. A tax iznt necessaryly sound just koz on paper it will bring in a nice looking amount of dollars. What makes a tax sound iz that.....

A. The tax iz eezy to kollekt (ie not costly, and not eezyly avoided).
B. The tax wont unduly affekt good produktion and good consumption in the long term.
C. The tax iz fair to poor and rich.
D. The tax duznt hav a bad effekt on imports and exports.

I would be surprized if 999 passes test C. If 999 duznt pass C, then it iz unlikely to get a good skore for B and D.
mac.

Yeah, the corporate tax shood hav been based on gross sales. </div></div>

From what I have read, those in the $50,000 range will see thir taxes increased 27 to 34 % while the rich will not be affected at at all.
Thus, it hardly passes C. </div></div>

What have you read that makes this case?

hondo
10-19-2011, 05:42 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm loving it!!


/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

There is always Michele B, the voice of reason..... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Michele Bachmann took her own shot at Cain's 9-9-9 plan: <span style='font-size: 14pt'>"When you take the 9-9-9 plan and you turn it upside down, I think the devil's in the details."</span> <u>An upside-down 999, of course, is 666 -- the mark of the Beast</u> in the New Testament Book of Revelation, a.k.a., the anti-Christ. <span style='font-size: 20pt'>Hmmm...naming the black guy in the race the anti-Christ. Seems we've heard that one before.</span> </div></div>


HaHaHaHa..............

Q </div></div>

Hmmm, A republican with a sense of humor! I have a new-found respect for her.
Wait a minute! She was kidding, right?

hondo
10-19-2011, 05:44 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SOUND. A tax iznt necessaryly sound just koz on paper it will bring in a nice looking amount of dollars. What makes a tax sound iz that.....

A. The tax iz eezy to kollekt (ie not costly, and not eezyly avoided).
B. The tax wont unduly affekt good produktion and good consumption in the long term.
C. The tax iz fair to poor and rich.
D. The tax duznt hav a bad effekt on imports and exports.

I would be surprized if 999 passes test C. If 999 duznt pass C, then it iz unlikely to get a good skore for B and D.
mac.

Yeah, the corporate tax shood hav been based on gross sales. </div></div>

From what I have read, those in the $50,000 range will see thir taxes increased 27 to 34 % while the rich will not be affected at at all.
Thus, it hardly passes C.

http://democratsforsale.blogspot.com/2011/10/cains-9-9-9-tax-reform-plan-will-hurt.html

Cain's '9-9-9' tax reform plan will hurt the poor and middle class



The more you read about Herman Cain's 9-9-9 Tax Reform Plan, the more you realize it is a gimmick for now and would open the door to more taxes not less. In fact, the two groups hurt the most by this plan are the poor and a lot of the middle class. Who benefits? The wealthy. There are not exemptions to the Cain sales tax plan so you when go buy a gallon of milk you can add on 9% and if you live in a state that taxes groceries, your 8.25% sales tax you are already paying is now going to be 17.25% to buy a gallon of milk. On my receipt from Walmart, I paid $8.27 in state/local sales tax and under the Cain plan I would be paying $15.09 on a bill that was $87.50. That means almost 1/5th of my bill would go to sales tax under the Cain plan. </div></div>

Bump for little dubbie's short attention span.

LWW
10-19-2011, 05:47 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SSDD. YAWN. Goodbye, eg. </div></div>
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
http://www.alef.net/ALEFWorks/AnimatedGifs/ALEFAnimatedGifs-KittenWaving.Gif
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
http://www.animationplayhouse.com/birdiewave.gif
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
http://www.ultimatemyspace.com/userpics/animations/ggg_6525.gif V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
http://www.fortunecity.com/millennium/rollingacres/1250/Animations/1-animal/ape-waving.gif
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
http://www.techcatcher.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/stickfigure_waving.gif
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
http://www.fortunecity.com/millennium/rollingacres/1250/Animations/1-animal/ape-waving.gif
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
http://www.gifmania.co.uk/fantastic/dragons/draco_waving_md_wht.gif

LWW
10-19-2011, 06:00 AM
DEMOCRATSFORSALE.COM is your source?

That's simply precious.

Here's actual questions your pack of lies source won't put on the spoon for you.

1 - Currently 15.3% in payroll taxes are levied against an hourly worker ... not counting income taxes or any state/local taxes. These would all go away and be replaced with a flat 9%. Is 9% higher or lower than 15.3%?

2 - The federal corporate tax rate will be reduced from 35% to 9%, and all other nonsensical federal taxes will be eliminated. Is 9% higher or lower than 35%?

3 - The sales tax of 9% would apply towards all goods, which would have a lower retail price point following the embedded taxes being removed. When a manufacturer/supplier have costs reduced will the retail price go up or down in a market with 3 or more competitors?

4 - With all embedded taxes removed, we will be the only nation exporting pure product with no embedded taxation. With reduced prices on our imports, will we import more or less?

5 - With reduced prices at the register, will people buy more or less?

6 - With increased take home pay will consumers buy more or less?

7 - With sales, exports, farming, mining, and manufacturing doing additional business will they need more employees or less?

8 - With more employees needed will the unemployment rate go up or down?

9 - With more workers needed and a smaller pool from which to draw them, will wages rise or fall?

If you can't figure this out you are either a moron or so hyper partisan that you simply refuse to get it.

Out of curiosity, in your research did you bother to actually read the plan?

Of course you didn't. If you had you wouldn't be coming across as being so clueless right now.

eg8r
10-19-2011, 07:46 AM
The prison workers. You were so excited they were fired so that the south Florida prison could save $1 million dollars.

eg8r

eg8r
10-19-2011, 07:48 AM
What does this have to do with you being ok with firing a bunch of prison workers to save a million but then mad at Cain for firing some employees to keep a business afloat?

eg8r?

eg8r
10-19-2011, 07:57 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you look at it closely -- we had it evaluated using dynamic analysis</div></div>This is the part that will always fly sky high over your head. You don't have the cognitive ability to think in these terms. Just understand that when you read about estimations by the CBO they are static meaning nothing changes and independants use dynamic analysis which means everything changes. It is hard to water it down to your level but I gave it a shot.

The part where he mentions buying used versus new should have been left out because there are schmucks like you and the author that will look for super extreme examples to discredit a logical point. If consumers don't have enough to buy a new car they have the option of buying a used car. By using that example your attempt to discredit holds very little water. There will always be people with more money than you and people with less. Options are out there for everyone.

Based on your thread about wealthy Americans you prove you know little about "wealth". What is known about true "wealthy" Americans you could apply what Cain says to how they make their purchases. The true "wealthy" Americans rarely drive expensive brand new imported luxury cars. The overwhelming majority of them purchased gently used American vehicles. You wouldn't know that because your head is in the sand.

eg8r

hondo
10-19-2011, 08:10 AM
By Ruth Marcus, Published: October 18
Washington Post




Does Herman Cain understand his 9-9-9 tax plan? Evidence suggests the answer is no-no-no.

At the Bloomberg-Washington Post debate, Cain argued that economic growth spurred by the reduced rates would more than make up for any lost revenue. “We have had an outside firm, independent firm, dynamically score it,” he said. “And so our numbers will make it revenue-neutral.”



















Ruth Marcus

An editorial writer specializing in politics, the budget and other domestic issues, she also writes a weekly column and contributes to the PostPartisan blog.






















.

Beware when you hear the phrase “dynamic scoring.” It translates to: “This tax cut might bust the budget, but let’s cross our fingers and hope for growth.”

And it turns out — at least according to his chief economic adviser — that Cain didn’t mean to be relying on dynamic scoring at all.

Cain adviser Richard Lowrie said the candidate mistakenly invoked dynamic scoring. But even under a more traditional analysis, Lowrie said, the plan would be revenue-neutral, meaning it would not lose money.

“On occasion he might transpose the terms,” Lowrie told me. “When asked if it is revenue-neutral, he might say it’s dynamically scored. He might misspeak.”

This is not reassuring. Sure, anyone can jumble up terminology, especially in the unaccustomed glare of a presidential debate. But a few days earlier, Cain said the same thing.

“The people who are saying it will not be revenue-neutral? They are absolutely wrong because they did a static analysis,” Cain told CNN’s Candy Crowley. “We had this done with the dynamic analysis with an outside independent firm, so they are making an erroneous assumption.”

The 9-9-9 plan is the main plank — the only plank — of Cain’s campaign platform. As it turns out, according to new calculations by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, his plan would probably raise more revenue in 2013 than would the current tax code. But his muffed explanation is pretty unsettling.

Cain is even more muddled on the undeniably regressive impact of his plan. “Some people will pay more, but most people would pay less,” Cain told NBC’s David Gregory.

The Tax Policy Center analysis shows that Cain has it exactly backward. Compared with current tax rates, 84 percent of taxpayers would pay more under 9-9-9 if it were fully implemented in 2013. Just 14 percent — the wealthiest — would see their tax bills drop.

By a lot. The top 1 percent, earning $600,000 and up, would pay almost 20 percent less, for an average tax break of $238,000. The middle 20 percent, those with incomes between $37,000 and $65,000, would see their taxes rise 10 percent — an average increase of $4,330.

Why? As University of Southern California law professor Edward Kleinbard, former chief of staff to the congressional Joint Committee on Taxation, has shown, the 9 percent business tax, 9 percent retail sales tax and 9 percent wage tax is effectively a 27 percent tax on wages.

Cain’s business tax is not like the existing corporate income tax, which applies to profits. Instead, it’s basically a value-added tax in which businesses do not deduct the cost of wages. That means, in effect, another 9 percent tax on income — just as standard economic theory now treats the employer’s share of payroll taxes as reducing workers’ wages.

Cain ignores any impact of the business tax on wages. Meanwhile, he asserts that the 9 percent retail sales tax would not raise the final cost of goods; rather, it would replace existing taxes “embedded” in the current price. If anything, he asserts, prices will drop.

Simultaneously, however, Cain claims the tax isn’t a problem for lower-income people because they can simply buy used goods, on which the tax would not apply. Slight problem: There’s no such thing as used milk.

Assume Cain is right. Prices won’t go up. Wages won’t fall. Cain simplistically argues that the existing payroll tax adds up to 15 percent and asserts that people will be six percentage points better off under his 9 percent plan.

This is wrong, as explained above. But consider the impact of only the personal income tax on two taxpayers earning $25,000 and $250,000, both married with two children. According to the Tax Foundation’s nifty calculator, the $25,000 earner owes $1,413 in payroll taxes. Thanks to the Earned Income Tax Credit and the Child Tax Credit, his income tax liability is negative. He receives a $5,002 check. Under the Cain plan, he owes $2,250.

Assuming a standard deduction, the $250,000 earner owes combined income and payroll taxes of $60,765. His Cain tax is $22,500. Explain again, Mr. Cain, who wins under your plan?



Of course it doesn't matter how many sources and from where you show little dubbie, he's a closed book.
This is why I rarely bother.
He's going to claim victory even when he gets knocked out.

cushioncrawler
10-19-2011, 08:13 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3 - The sales tax of 9% would apply towards all goods, which would have a lower retail price point following the embedded taxes being removed. When a manufacturer/supplier have costs reduced will the retail price go up or down in a market with 3 or more competitors?
4 - With all embedded taxes removed, we will be the only nation exporting pure product with no embedded taxation. With reduced prices on our imports, will we import more or less?
5 - With reduced prices at the register, will people buy more or less?
6 - With increased take home pay will consumers buy more or less?
</div></div>I think i dont agree. I see it like this.....

Taxes dont really change anything.

What if the gov gets all of its revenue from a tax on wages.
What if the gov gets all of its revenue from a tax on goods and services.
What if the gov gets all of its revenue from some sort of charges, eg speeding tickets and fines etc.
What if the gov gets zero revenue, ie the deficit iz 100%.

All in all, none of theze 4 scenarios change anything.

The ave cost of things in theusofa will depend on the ave volume of produktion per person, and will allso depend on the ave gov expenditure per person.
That iz it. There aint no more.

Re the effekts of theze 4 scenarios on imports and exports, none of theze 4 scenarios affekt imports or exports.

Imports and exports depend on ave produktion, ave gov expenditure, and komparativ advantage.

Komparativ advantage depends on industry to industry komparativ efficiency, both inside the usofa and inside other countrys, and depends on the value of the greenback kompared to other currencys.

That iz it. There aint no more.
mac.

Gayle in MD
10-19-2011, 10:16 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">COOPER: Herman Cain, I've got to give you 30 seconds, because she was referring to -- basically saying you were naive or if -- if that's what you were suggesting.

CAIN: No, I -- I said that I believe in the philosophy of we don't negotiate with terrorists. I think -- I didn't say --<u> I would never agree to letting hostages<span style="color: #CC0000">??</span> in Guantanamo Bay go.</u> No, that wasn't -- that wasn't the intent at all.
</div></div>

Earlier.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> BLITZER: Could you imagine if you were president…and there were one American soldier who had been held for years and the demand was al Qaeda or some other terrorist group, “You got to free everyone at Guantanamo Bay” – several hundred prisoners at Guantanamo. <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Could you see yourself as president authorizing that kind of transfer?
</span>
CAIN: <span style='font-size: 14pt'><u>I could see myself authorizing that kind of transfer</u> </span>but what I would do is I would make sure that I got all of the information. I got all of the input, considered all of the options. And then, the president has to be the president and make a judgment call. <span style='font-size: 14pt'>I can make that call if I had to. </span> </div></div>

Q


</div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but what I would do is I would make sure that I got all of the information. I got all of the input, considered all of the options. And then, the president has to be the president and make a judgment call. I can make that call if I had to.</div></div>

LMAO,
Cain's campaign commercial for President Obama's correct policies.... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

He's describing exactly President Obama's history, of bringing everyone together, and listening to all of the views of a range of experts....both from the left, and the right.

No one could possibly believe that this President is uable to make decisions!!!

OMG, given the mess Bush left, and how many people, both foreign affairs specialists, and economists, all agreeing possibly the worst legacy any president since Roosevelt, ever inherited...and the charts prove McConnell, Cain, Cheney, Romney, Perry, Sanitorium, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif Bachmann, Gingrich...all of them liars as regards President Obama's incredible successes, both foreign, and his successes in job creation, and preventing the Bush Depression!



G.

Gayle in MD
10-19-2011, 10:21 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cain on meet the press. link to video (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032608/vp/44921014#44921014)

Its the 'Fair Tax' wrapped up in BS.

Its a gift to the 1%, designed to perpetuate and increase the growing inequality.

Q...also, this plan gives the impression that these are all the taxes you will have to pay. It doesn't account for EXTRA taxes, state taxes!

</div></div>

IOW, it's just another REpiglican economic tax scam, for redistributing wealth to the top one percent, on the backs of everyone else.

Same ol' Same ol' FAILED REPIG POLICIES!

Cain is an idiot!

Someone needs to send him a Juicer!

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

ugotda7
10-19-2011, 02:25 PM
Looks like you should have taken Math instead of Home Economics.

Qtec
10-20-2011, 02:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You absolutely did. Your praise for the government saving $1 million at the cost of those employees is all you needed to say.

eg8r </div></div>

Lets recap. As I recall, the subject was a prison that was taken BACK from the private operators because it was costing more to run than when the Govt was running it.

ie,
The prison was privatised because they were sure this would reduce costs.
In the end, it was costing so much more that they took it back.
It was found that they could do the same job with less staff so some were let go. In no way was I jumping for joy that some were fired, unlike you who has an orgasm every time more teachers get the sack.


<span style='font-size: 14pt'>I was jumping for joy because it blows away your assertion that public sector is always more expensive than private sector.</span>

Q.

eg8r
10-20-2011, 07:23 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was found that they could do the same job with less staff so some were let go. In no way was I jumping for joy that some were fired, </div></div>You were perfectly fine with staff reduction to save money. When it is your guys reducing staff, firing people, and putting a greater burden on those left behind it is perfectly fine. When Cain does it you try and show it as a negative. You are a hypocrite plain and simple.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
10-20-2011, 11:05 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You absolutely did. Your praise for the government saving $1 million at the cost of those employees is all you needed to say.

eg8r </div></div>

Lets recap. As I recall, the subject was a prison that was taken BACK from the private operators because it was costing more to run than when the Govt was running it.

ie,
The prison was privatised because they were sure this would reduce costs.
In the end, it was costing so much more that they took it back.
It was found that they could do the same job with less staff so some were let go. In no way was I jumping for joy that some were fired, unlike you who has an orgasm every time more teachers get the sack.


<span style='font-size: 14pt'>I was jumping for joy because it blows away your assertion that public sector is always more expensive than private sector.</span>

Q.

</div></div>

Precisely, but our own Chubby Checker doesn't "Get it" EVER!

Come on Eddie, let's do the twist!

Come on EEEEEEEEEDDDDDIIIIIEEEE, let's do the twist...

Take ya by your chubby hand....and go like this....

Round and around and around and around you goooooooooo

LMAO!