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TomBrooklyn
09-23-2002, 04:35 PM
Sometimes I get a little side to side wobble in my warm-up strokes. (and maybe in my shot stroke, but I haven't looked for that as I'm usually looking at the OB on the shot.)

Are there any things to check for that can make that tend to happen (stance, head position, etc.), or is just a matter of getting the arm steady.

Any excercises to work on that? Shooting into a soda bottle would be one I guess.

=TB=

Tom_In_Cincy
09-23-2002, 04:41 PM
Try shooting the cue ball up and down the table and see if the wobble is effecting your proformance.

Nick Varner has a noticalby shaky back hand.. and it doesn't seem to effect his performance. But, then again, I don't know if you play that well normally.

The coke bottle exercise is a good one for instant feed back about how well you are stroking.

Let us know the outcome please..

09-23-2002, 04:45 PM
Hi Tom,
When I have a wobble, or a slight twist in my wrist, it is generally due to me not being lined up on the shot correctly.

BTW P/M me your address info so I can send you some stuff.

stickman
09-23-2002, 04:47 PM
Tom, I believe this to be a product of the change in motion from the back stroke to the forward stroke. I have this problem from time to time myself, and it's quite aggravating when it happens. What I did was to add a slight hesitation at the back of my stroke, but not a big pause, like you might see Allison take. This felt strange at first, but seemed to eliminate the wobbles. For some reason, I don't notice myself using it anymore, but the wobbles have seemed to disappear. If they come back I know how to correct for them. Hope this helps.

Jim

Jay M
09-23-2002, 06:01 PM
There are a lot of things that can cause a "wobble" in the stroke. The most common one that I've seen is when you line up incorrectly on the shot (by just a hair) and you lean forward or backwards to adjust rather than getting up and realigning yourself.

Jay M

09-23-2002, 06:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> Sometimes I get a little side to side wobble in my warm-up strokes. (and maybe in my shot stroke, but I haven't looked for that as I'm usually looking at the OB on the shot.)

Then once you go back to your lighter cue, you'll see the difference.

Are there any things to check for that can make that tend to happen (stance, head position, etc.), or is just a matter of getting the arm steady.

Any excercises to work on that? Shooting into a soda bottle would be one I guess.

=TB= <hr></blockquote>

Here's a simple exercise: shoot for a while with the heaviest cue you can find (one that's preferably either neutrally balanced or a tad butt-heavy). That will encourage a better pendulum-type stroke.

stickman
09-23-2002, 06:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Jay M:</font><hr> There are a lot of things that can cause a "wobble" in the stroke. The most common one that I've seen is when you line up incorrectly on the shot (by just a hair) and you lean forward or backwards to adjust rather than getting up and realigning yourself.

Jay M <hr></blockquote>

That's a good response, Jay. I wouldn't have thought of that because I honestly think I do this instinctively. I do catch myself not lined up correctly sometimes, and change my stance to line up properly. I don't know about the wobbles, but know that if I don't line up correctly, I miss my shots. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

TonyM
09-23-2002, 11:53 PM
I'd say it might be due to a bit too much tension in your stroking arm. Try relaxing the stroking arm and visualize letting the cue "fall forward" without any intentional muscle.

Tom Simpson suggested an exercise on rsb a few years back. He suggested getting a 3 lb barbell, and getting in your stroking position and move it back and forth like you are stroking a cue.

The idea is that the extra inertia gives you immediate feedback if you are adding any additional muscle into your stroke to try and keep it online. A good stroke simply "allows" the arm to "fall" forward naturally without any muscle.

Exaggerating the cue's inertia (like another poster suggested with a heavy cue) by mimicking it with a barbell let's you know if you are letting the cue move, or if you are forcing to try and move in a straight line.

I've also used small donut shaped weights slipped around a house cue to get the same effect.

Sometimes, we will wobble the cue if we have not dropped down on the correct line to begin with. Our brain tells us that the cue is not on line, so we swerve it a little to "adjust" for the poor aim. Make sure that you see the correct line of aim before you drop down into your stance.

Another "cause" of a wobbly cue is what I call "busy" eyes. Your eyes might be all over the place when taking your warm-up strokes. Try and focus on just one finite area when looking at the object ball, and when looking at the cueball.
I've found that the cue tends to follow your eyes, just like the steering wheel tends to move in the direction that you are looking!

And lastly, if your upper arm is not parallel with the cue line (when viewed from above) this can cause one to stroke "across the line".

This is hard to self diagnose, so I'd suggest having a friend check out your arm alignment. Your shoulder joint, elbow joint, wrist joint, head, and bridge hand should all lie along the same "plane". Sometimes we get things a bit out of alignment over time.

Some thoughts to keep you occupied!

Tony

Rod
09-24-2002, 01:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> I'd say it might be due to a bit too much tension in your stroking arm. Try relaxing the stroking arm and visualize letting the cue "fall forward" without any intentional muscle.

*(This one might be # 1) The reason being, the slightest bit of tension will "guide" the cue, instead of letting the cue swing of its own weight.)


Tom Simpson suggested an exercise on rsb a few years back. He suggested getting a 3 lb barbell, and getting in your stroking position and move it back and forth like you are stroking a cue.

*(I have a 2 pounder) Either of these weights lets you feel the weight swinging. You should have the same sense with a cue. That's why a firm grip or tense muscles makes you "lose" the sense of a lighter weight such as your cue. It's called steering.)


The idea is that the extra inertia gives you immediate feedback if you are adding any additional muscle into your stroke to try and keep it online. A good stroke simply "allows" the arm to "fall" forward naturally without any muscle.

*(The term I used for dropping the cue on the c/b.)


Exaggerating the cue's inertia (like another poster suggested with a heavy cue) by mimicking it with a barbell let's you know if you are letting the cue move, or if you are forcing to try and move in a straight line.

I've also used small donut shaped weights slipped around a house cue to get the same effect.


*(I've have had students use 2 pound wrist weight. same effect. For a real sense of weight swinging you can use a milk jug with 1 or2 fingers, with any amount of water, or milk. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif Remember if you had holes drilled just above the water line any jerky move will spill the water!)



Sometimes, we will wobble the cue if we have not dropped down on the correct line to begin with. Our brain tells us that the cue is not on line, so we swerve it a little to "adjust" for the poor aim. Make sure that you see the correct line of aim before you drop down into your stance.

*(It's a toss up but this may be the # 2 reason.)


Another "cause" of a wobbly cue is what I call "busy" eyes. Your eyes might be all over the place when taking your warm-up strokes. Try and focus on just one finite area when looking at the object ball, and when looking at the cueball.
I've found that the cue tends to follow your eyes, just like the steering wheel tends to move in the direction that you are looking!

*(I've noticed this also, keep your eyes focused on the buisness end, cue ball/cue tip in relation to shot angle.)

And lastly, if your upper arm is not parallel with the cue line (when viewed from above) this can cause one to stroke "across the line".

*(Very true once again, and this can lead back to the grip, wrist position, tension or all of the above.)


This is hard to self diagnose, so I'd suggest having a friend check out your arm alignment. Your shoulder joint, elbow joint, wrist joint, head, and bridge hand should all lie along the same "plane". Sometimes we get things a bit out of alignment over time.

Some thoughts to keep you occupied!

Tony <hr></blockquote>


Tony, I just added my thoughts to your already well written post.

bluewolf
09-24-2002, 07:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> Sometimes I get a little side to side wobble in my warm-up strokes. (and maybe in my shot stroke, but I haven't looked for that as I'm usually looking at the OB on the shot.)

Are there any things to check for that can make that tend to happen (stance, head position, etc.), or is just a matter of getting the arm steady.

Any excercises to work on that? Shooting into a soda bottle would be one I guess.

=TB= <hr></blockquote>

Tom, this is a great post and as a beginner refreshing to see that I am not the only one who has these problems. The side to side wobble thing of which you speak, I have heard ww complain about the same thing.

I have a bonafide mild to severe hand tremor than can make my stroke arm come through crooked. I think this is a different problem although perhaps a similar concept .

I have talked to people about mine, shot with the other hand ,held the cue lighter, brought it closer to my body etc,trying to find some way to compensate. Sometimes I am more successful than others. Maybe if I was better at pool I could figure this out more easily

And you guys might think this is weird, but if I talk to the balls, telling them which pocket they are going in and admonishing them as bad boys deserving a spanking if they dont go in (all in fun of course) but it does get me super focused and sometimes that makes my hand stop shaking. It also stopped shaking that time i went into the zone,so who knows what head stuff I have going on too. weird i know, but what would you expect from a crazy beginner?ROFL

Laura

09-24-2002, 01:43 PM
I didn't read all the other posts, so forgive me if this is redundant. First, I like Tony M's reponse about muscle tension. Sometimes we forget that power comes from tip speed and not muscle. Someone quoted Scott Lee making an analogy of the forward stroke comparing it to a "salute". I like this comparison because the arm movement is quick, precise and relaxed. Try it stroking while thinking of the forward movement as a salute.
Secondly. I have found it helps to shoot a couple of racks looking at the cueball only on my practice strokes (after I've set up and aimed) and my final shot execution. Most of the time our eyes are alternating between cueball and object ball and we can lose sight of subtle variations in tip placement that can arise during the warmup strokes. If you have any wobble in your stroke, you'll see it immediately when focusing only on the cueball. The tip placement on the cueball will be all over the place. Once you are aware of this tip movement you'll quickly correct it by shooting the shot and watching the stroke all the way through the cueball to completion. If you miss a few shots, so what! You'll correct that stroke flaw quickly. Good luck.

phil in sofla
09-24-2002, 03:21 PM
Sort of an old timer's technique, I guess, is to fold up a newspaper, put it under your cueing arm, and shoot for a period of time holding it in place by keeping the upper arm tight to the trunk of the body.

Locking in the upper arm tightly to the body is something I've seen people with obvious tremors do, to minimize the wobble they'd otherwise have, and this is a technique to encourage that practice, and gain that muscle memory.

Kinnister's Advanced Fundamentals tape gives a tip about how to find the optimal unstressed mechanical line for your grip hand. Hold the cue in front of you naturally in a relaxed posture, with your grip hand, letting the hand naturally go where it wants-- no tension or torque feeling allowed. You'll find the cue crosses your body. That is the natural line your hand will take your cue down the line with no twisting or muscular tension required of the wrist.

If you are more squared up to the line, ala some snooker players, you must be using muscular force, and some tension, to make the arm articulate down a line that isn't mechanically natural, which could lead to variable results under pressure or at random.

TonyM
09-24-2002, 05:31 PM
Thanks Rod. I like the milk jug suggestion. How about filling it with nitro glycerine (or a deadly nerve toxin)? At least that's what you could tell the student it was! (Lol!).

Tell them if they spill even 1 drop, they are dead!

Tony
-that'll teach ya to keep the cue straight!.....

TonyM
09-24-2002, 05:35 PM
"If you are more squared up to the line, ala some snooker players, you must be using muscular force, and some tension, to make the arm articulate down a line that isn't mechanically natural, which could lead to variable results under pressure or at random."

Be careful with that "must" statement. When I do the Kinister "test" (I have the video in question btw) I find that my relaxed position IS square to the shot ala a snooker player.

Also, do you really think that top snooker players could pot with so much accuracy and consistency if they had some unwanted muscle in their technique?

Bert's method might not be as illuminating as it first appears.

Tony

Rod
09-24-2002, 08:13 PM
Quote, Kinnister's Advanced Fundamentals tape gives a tip about how to find the optimal unstressed mechanical line for your grip hand. Hold the cue in front of you naturally in a relaxed posture, with your grip hand, letting the hand naturally go where it wants-- no tension or torque feeling allowed. You'll find the cue crosses your body. That is the natural line your hand will take your cue down the line with no twisting or muscular tension required of the wrist. snip


Of course it will, that's the way your arms hang naturally. That statement by him gets out there where parallel lines meet. People would have to play at 45 degrees to the table if they wanted to keep this line intact. You don't even need the cue. Just let your arms hang and turn your body until your grip hand is in line with the shot. This is one of those statements I get miffed about, mentioned in a post farther down. When a person can't figure out why they missed, oh I know it must have been caused by etc, etc. I hope you took this with a grain of salt.
I don't have a clue why he would actually put that in print.



If you are more squared up to the line, ala some snooker players, you must be using muscular force, and some tension, to make the arm articulate down a line that isn't mechanically natural, which could lead to variable results under pressure or at random.


Actually I don't have to consider this since my normal stance is near 45 degrees anyway. None the less I can find much better reasons why I screwed up a shot. LOL

Rod
09-24-2002, 08:19 PM
Oh man, I told you not to use a pause!! flop, thud

griffith_d
09-25-2002, 06:08 AM
Sometimes the wobble can be caused by your wrist being turned inward. Try relaxing your wrist to where the back of you hand is verticle.

Griff

CarolNYC
09-25-2002, 06:27 AM
Hi Jim,
The slight hesistation you just mentioned is a key factor-if you stroke,stroke without a slight pause on the backstroke, you will get a wobble because your cue was in motion-the reasoning for the pause is,there is no other way that your cue can move except straight and forward-Tony R. pointed this one out to me because I also had a wobble problem-a pretty decent drill someone just mentioned to me was take the object ball and cueball-align them directly into a pocket-hit the object ball in the pocket and follow your cueball in as well-do it ten times-it is very difficult to purposely scratch,but it shows if you are dead on in your stroke and as you get better, move the cueball further away!Good luck Tom!
Carol

bluewolf
09-25-2002, 06:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: CarolNYC:</font><hr> Hi Jim,
The slight hesistation you just mentioned is a key factor-if you stroke,stroke without a slight pause on the backstroke, you will get a wobble because your cue was in motion-the reasoning for the pause is,there is no other way that your cue can move except straight and forward-Tony R. pointed this one out to me because I also had a wobble problem-a pretty decent drill someone just mentioned to me was take the object ball and cueball-align them directly into a pocket-hit the object ball in the pocket and follow your cueball in as well-do it ten times-it is very difficult to purposely scratch,but it shows if you are dead on in your stroke and as you get better, move the cueball further away!Good luck Tom!
Carol <hr></blockquote>

carol,

just a little confused. are you saying that you do take a pause on the final backstroke or do not take a pause?

bw

CarolNYC
09-25-2002, 01:25 PM
I do not care to be associated with you-please direct your questions to the many others here that are much more knowledgeable than I am and able to assist you!

TonyM
09-25-2002, 10:34 PM
Carol replied to Bluewolf with:

"I do not care to be associated with you"

Huh?

What's up with that?

Tony
-thought Bluewolf had a legitimate question.....

Bob_in_Cincy
09-26-2002, 07:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> .....
Tom Simpson suggested an exercise on rsb a few years back. He suggested getting a 3 lb barbell, and getting in your stroking position and move it back and forth like you are stroking a cue. .....

<hr></blockquote>

Tom also had a post on rsb about finding "natural stick alignment". I found that it helped me. For those interested, just search rsb for Tom Simpson &amp; the phrase "natural stick alignment" &amp; you'll find it.

Regards,

Bob_in_Cincy

Eric.
09-26-2002, 07:24 AM
Tony,

I think we all should leave this one alone. There's a story behind this.

Eric

TonyM
09-26-2002, 11:36 AM
"I think we all should leave this one alone. There's a story behind this"

I see. Well, nevermind.....

Tony
-doesn't keep up with all the gossip...