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dg-in-centralpa
11-14-2011, 04:41 PM
I think this was asked before but couldn't find it in the archives. Last week during league, player A was shooting solids. Player B fouled and gave BIH. Player A now starts shooting stripes. After the second shot, Player B calls foul for shooting the wrong balls. I argued that it should have been called on the first shot not the second, and that Player A now had the stripes. Otherwise Player A could have shot to the 8 ball, Player B calls foul and gets BIH on the 8. They eventually replayed the game. I couldn't find anything on line that addresses this. Am I wrong? No one else in the league ever heard of my explanation. It makes sense to them, but it's a foul either way. Does anyone know where I can find the rule about this?
Thanks,
Duane

8FV
11-14-2011, 06:41 PM
I may be wrong, but if player B called foul after player A shot the second, he may not have been paying attention.

If he had been paying attention, that's very unsportsmanlike and should, on its own, have a foul brought against the offending player.

In my experience, either player A continues to shoot what they are shooting, or the game is re-started. In terms of rules... if it's caught early enough (though I don't know what the definition of that is, in these parameters), it's just ball in hand for player B.

Brian in VA
11-14-2011, 07:29 PM
The correct answer depends on which league rules were in force for the match. BCAPL, ACS, and APA all have different sets of rules and this may be one of the rules that has different penalties or plays.

Which league system was it?

Brian in VA

tatcat2000
11-14-2011, 07:47 PM
In either BCAPL play or under WSR it is a re-rack. Under BCAPL, Rule 2.6.3 applies:

<span style='font-family: Arial'><span style="color: #000099">"Once they are established, groups can never change for the remainder of that game. If a player shoots the wrong group and no foul is called before the next shot and the player continues to shoot at that group, or if at any time during the game it is discovered by either player or a referee that the players are shooting the wrong groups, the game will be replayed with the player who broke the game breaking again."</span></span>

Under WSR, Regulation 10, "8-Ball Addendum" applies:

<span style='font-family: Arial'><span style="color: #000099">"If the groups have been determined and the player mistakenly shoots at and pockets a ball of the opponent’s group, the foul must be called before he takes his next shot. Upon recognition by either player or the referee that the groups have been reversed, the rack will be halted and will be replayed with the original player executing the break shot."</span></span>

Either of the above may be modified by the league - can't answer to that. If not playing under BCAPL or WSR, can't answer to that either.
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Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
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http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

<span style='font-size: 8pt'>* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
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* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. <u>The Official Rules of the BCAPL</u> is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
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Sid_Vicious
11-14-2011, 09:18 PM
It was, at some time and some league system,,,that if the foul was not called before the second shot was made, that the player just "took over the opponents suit" and the game continued. Maybe someone here can remember and elaborate. "I've slept since then", but I am sure that is the way it once was somewhere in organized 8-ball, coulda been 15 years ago though.

I might see an advantage under circumstances to trick into a re-rack by slyly slipping in two of their balls real fast if they were the sicual butterfly type and not paying much attention, especially if the table was totally messy and the 8 was dangerous with my suit hovering around the 8. That is extreme, I know. I am almost certain though that it was one of the BCA referees from Dallas who regularly went to the Nationals in Vegas that told me about the taking over of the suit, and it would have been back in the 1990s. sid

tatcat2000
11-15-2011, 12:23 AM
Bob may want to verify the dates - I don't have all my books at hand. I can testify to 1998 on...

From '98 to '03, the issue was not addressed in writing in WSR, but the "stealing groups" principle was, nevertheless, generally enforced at BCA Nationals. The particulars varied from year to year and time to time based on the Head Referee in power/on duty at any given time - change on the second shot, change only if the second shot was actually made, etc. A total mess.

In 2003, the old WSR 4.10 specifically addressed the issue in writing, but was worded so poorly that much was still left to the imgination. The most apparent logical reading indicated that, after a failure to call a foul in a timely manner, a second consecutive shot would switch the groups, regardless of the outcome of the second shot. That's just one ref's opinion, but I heard plenty of other wacky interpretations.

For BCAPL play, the issue was squashed in 2007 with the first issue of the BCAPL Rules, which ended the practice. WSR did the same in 2008.

As Sid noted, it was not all that uncommon for an unscrupulous player to fire off two quick ones while the opponent was not paying attention. While it was still sometimes easy to establish UC based on the player's normal rate of play throughout the match - ("and, sir, how many other times during the previous seven games did you rush to execute two shots in 3.7 seconds?") it was successfully pulled off a few times in my presence when the opponent just wasn't paying attention to a normal rate of play.

Accident or not was sometimes hard to determine. Most of the half-dozen times I was involved it was an end-game situation with a hooked player trying to avoid the kick by going after the open off-group ball. Last wrong OB, 8-ball, seeyalaterbye.

Yes, even the new re-rack rules can be manipulated in an unsportsmanlike manner, but since the 2007 changes I have not been made aware of any such complaint in any BCAPL regional or national event. There were far more problems prior to that. Even if someone got away with it once, twice would be a pattern. See ya later, Mr. UC - you're outtahere.

Buddy

Rich R.
11-15-2011, 05:35 AM
I have heard of your explanation but I don't remember which set of rules applied. It seems most sets of rules address the situation specifcally so you may want to continue your search in your league rules.

JJFSTAR
11-15-2011, 09:29 AM
In most league play once you shoot the second shot i.e. that tip contacts that CB for the second time the sitting player can no longer call the foul. TAP league actually doesn’t say it as well as our local West Penn Pool League says it but the flavor is exactly the same. The APA rules about this situation are verbose, confusing and IMHO just plain stupid but I put them in anyway.

From TAP league 8 ball rule book 7-2011:

Once the category of balls has been determined and a player shoots the wrong category of balls, the opponent must immediately notify the player that a foul has occurred. Should the opponent not inform the shooting player and another ball is pocketed, the shooting player now has that category of balls.

From the West Penn Pool League rule book 8-2005:

The determination of groups is decided when a player legally pockets an object ball after the break (the opposing player has the other group). After the groups have been determined, if a player shoots at, and pockets one of his opponent’s balls, the opposing player must call the foul before the next shot. If the player is permitted to continue shooting, no foul can be called – at that point, the groups have effectively been switched.

TAP league should say “struck” instead of “pocketed” just for clarification. These are both the current rule books and what they say even though WPPL’s rule book has not been revised in quite some time.

Of course the APA has this to say:

Occasionally it occurs that a player mistakenly starts shooting the wrong category of balls. Although it is sportsmanlike for the sitting player to remind the shooting player that he is about to foul by shooting the wrong category of balls, it is not a requirement for him to do so. Once the shooter has hit the wrong category of balls, the foul has occurred whether the ball is pocketed or not. If the ball is pocketed, it is permissible, though not recommended, that the sitting player allow the shooting player to continue shooting his balls in until he feels inclined to call the foul. The shooting player can escape penalty by quietly realizing his error and returning to shoot the correct category of balls and legally contacting one of them before his opponent calls foul, or by finishing off the wrong category of balls and legally contacting the 8-ball prior to his opponent calling a foul. In other words, the sitting player must call the foul before the shooter returns to the correct category and legally contacts one or before the shooter pockets the remaining balls of the wrong category and legally contacts the 8-ball. Once a player makes legal contact with the 8-ball, the player assumes control of that category of wrongly pocketed balls and can win the game by pocketing the 8-ball. Before any foul has occurred, the shooter also may avoid penalty by asking the sitting player which category of balls he has. The sitting player must tell him the truth.

dg-in-centralpa
11-15-2011, 10:39 AM
Thank you all for your responses. The league uses the old Valley rules. I just couldn't see calling a foul after the second shot at the wrong balls.

Duane