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Cueless Joey
09-25-2002, 01:51 AM
Tried one tonite. I've always broke with a 19-21 oz house cue. I broke the crap out of racks tonite with a 16 oz cue.
Suprisingly, the cueball didn't fly all over the place.
I'm a convinced. I'm getting one.

Doctor_D
09-25-2002, 05:23 AM
Good morning:

I have also reduced the weight of my break cue and found that the perfomance increased. However, I do recall reading, under some rules but not the BCA's, that the minimum weight of a cue must be 17.0 ozs. You might want to look into this!

Dr. D.

ChrisW
09-25-2002, 07:49 AM
I have never heard of a minimum weight.
APA and BCA don't have it and if they did what would be the point of it?
Unless they think that a light cue may shatter and stab someone under the chin.

09-25-2002, 08:00 AM
Howdy,
Yes,there is a rule ( BCA rules)on the weight of the cue.NO MINIMUM.Maximum allowed is 25oz.length minimum 40inches and no maximum.width of the tip-minimum 9 mm and maximum 14 mm. Remember that BCA is not universal and everything.cheers
Vagabond

09-25-2002, 08:04 AM
My above response is a general one and not in response to your comment.u already indicated that there is no minimum.cheers
vagabond

09-25-2002, 11:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Cueless Joey:</font><hr> Tried one tonite. I've always broke with a 19-21 oz house cue. I broke the crap out of racks tonite with a 16 oz cue.
Suprisingly, the cueball didn't fly all over the place.
I'm a convinced. I'm getting one. <hr></blockquote>


Bustamante and Archer are two of the best breakers out there and they break with a heavy cue. Busta = 20 oz and Archer = 21 oz. Hmmm...maybe you should go out there and convince them both.

TonyM
09-25-2002, 11:37 AM
If you do get a 16 ounce break cue, you might want to ensure that you have some way to add weight in the future. I've made quite a few ultra light break cues for players that have claimed to have an epiphany like yours, and without exception, every single one went back to a heavier cue for the break.

It's not just about speed, but control. An ounce either way makes little difference to the speed, but can affect the ability to control the ball.

I personally don't think that it is useful to break with anything under 18 ounces.

Tony

Rod
09-25-2002, 11:52 AM
Joey, be careful about a, one good night of breaking. I play with a 19oz. My break cue is 19oz. One night I broke with an 18oz SP cue from a friend with great sucess. Heck I liked it so much I just played with it. A week or two later I broke with that same cue and it just was not the same. It didn't fit my rhythm at all. Your dropping at least 3oz, something to think about.

09-25-2002, 12:03 PM
Some years ago, the trend was to get a heavy break cue to put more mass behind the ball. Now, the trend has somewhat shifted (although, some have reverted back to heavier break cues) to a lighter cue - the idea being that more speed can be generated with a lighter cue. I played with a lighter break cue for a while, but now I'm back to using a cue that is a little heavier than what I play with.

09-25-2002, 12:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> If you do get a 16 ounce break cue, you might want to ensure that you have some way to add weight in the future. I've made quite a few ultra light break cues for players that have claimed to have an epiphany like yours, and without exception, every single one went back to a heavier cue for the break.

It's not just about speed, but control. An ounce either way makes little difference to the speed, but can affect the ability to control the ball.

I personally don't think that it is useful to break with anything under 18 ounces.

Tony <hr></blockquote>


You got that right!!!

One day you think your superman and the next day your not!

Heavier cues are better look at the best breakers out there. Busta = 20 oz and Archer = 21 oz. AND they are CONSISTENT!

nAz
09-25-2002, 01:07 PM
I try to break with a 18oz house cue But i like to use one that is not too long, 2in. shorter then my playing cue and has a shorter ferrule, i feel that i get a better break with this set up (pocket more balls and better cue ball control) but then again it might all be in my head.

heater451
09-25-2002, 01:14 PM
I've had both good and bad results, up and down the range (15-21oz) with break cue weights. The choice was mainly due to playing in a bar, where I usually had to take "what's decent". They were mostly 1 piece Dufferins, and some Valleys. The lighter cues work better for me.

Now, at home, I've found that my break is good with what I have downstairs--Players 2pc cues (17-20oz), and one Mali (19, but seems heavy). When I'm out, I play with a 19oz, 2pc Viking, and my break is usually worse. I could attribute this to the table differences, but I don't think that's it.

My Viking is a steel joint, forward-balanced cue, and all the others that I've mentioned were rear-balanced (butt-heavy). I think that this has a large effect on the break stroke, but I'm interested in what you all think.

Also, I understand that controlling the stroke is an issue, but do you think that the weight-bias/balance is a big factor in that?

Lastly, about the breakstroke in general, I think more people lose energy in their break, because they tense up. And, although a 'perfect' break might include using the whole body, I think 'bad form' causes a detrimental effect. That is, one person may get more power/speed from using only their arm, than another who is throwing their body into it, but doing it badly (being tense, or mistiming themselves). What do you think?



======================

TonyM
09-25-2002, 10:49 PM
"My Viking is a steel joint, forward-balanced cue, and all the others that I've mentioned were rear-balanced (butt-heavy). I think that this has a large effect on the break stroke, but I'm interested in what you all think. "

I think that the balance point itself is of minor importance to the break. The weight distribution on the other hand might be a factor. How the weight is distributed throughout the cue affects the dynamic stability of the cue. Specifically, it influences the cue's Moment of Inertia. (literally, the inertia about a pivot, like the bridge hand).

The higher the moment of inertia, the greater the stability of the cue while in motion. Thus a high MOI cues tends to stay on line. This will affect the accuracy of the tip/ball contact, and not the final speed of the cue.

A cue with the weight biased towards the rear hand can give some aditional feedback to whether or not the cue is still on line.

But is it a huge factor? I doubt it. I think that the overall weight, the shaft taper (extreme conical tapers are not suited to a closed bridge) and especially the tip. In fact, I find the tip to be the single greatest factor to a succesful break cue. It might not be as important as the tip on a jump cue, but it might be close.

I've had players that swore by a forward weighted cue for the break, and others that prefered a rear weighted cue.
So perhaps it comes down to just that, preference.

"That is, one person may get more power/speed from using only their arm, than another who is throwing their body into it, but doing it badly (being tense, or mistiming themselves). What do you think? "

Well I'd agree. Ultimately, what really counts in the break is controlled speed. And the final cue speed is all that counts with respect to the final cueball speed (assuming the same cue of course, and an identical hit). And in general, relaxed muscles can go faster than tense muscles.

A high speed break is about getting all of the moving parts moving forward together at the same time, with as much speed as possible. Some players jump backwards, or straight up on the break, and actually reduce their speed, not add to it!

So a simple fast arm motion is surely preferable to a miss-timed full body motion!

Tony
-thinks the break should be learned with one motion at a time, and at a slow speed, gradually building to a full speed break....

09-25-2002, 11:03 PM
Tony,

You mentioned the tip being the single greatest factor for a successful break cue and jump cue. I assume you want a really hard tip on a break cue, but what if you have a break / jump cue? Is there a nice compromise tip that will suit the purpose of both, like a Triangle, perhaps? I'd certainly like to know.

Thanks.

Bob

rackmup
09-26-2002, 06:32 AM
After reading this thread, I removed the weight bolt from my Predator BK, reducing it to 17 ounces (from 20.) I immediately headed over to the local Click's and proceeded to break rack-after-rack. Yes, the rack was hit hard, the balls went everywhere, some went in and the cueball danced like I like it to.

But it did this with the weight bolt IN also.

Regards,

Ken (I'll leave it out for now)

shayla
09-26-2002, 07:50 AM
I used to break and play with my 16 oz. Hunter Classics custom cue. I loved it. I had Mr. Hunter make me another cue (19oz) that I now play with and break with. I break the same with both cues regardless, and I've got a pretty hard break. (Got up to 21mph according to the Sardo break-contest a couple of years ago in Vegas.) I can hit that speed consistantly with 16oz or 19oz. Its all personal preference I think, not to mention part of it is probably just in your head. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

griffith_d
09-26-2002, 10:46 AM
Tuesday is my tournament night and I was shooting good, after 3 matches in a row and won them 3 to zero, I broke with my playing cue.

I have a Pred BK, that I have been raving about, but I did not hardly break with it, because the loser breaks.

In my final, and losing match, I broke with my Meucci with my new Talisman Pro M tip on it, and I must say it felt more solid and really seem to break better,...but it was only one break. The Meucci is 19.5 oz. and the BK is 18.5 oz.

Conclusion: it could have been just a more solid hit, I must say, I backed off a bit because of it being my playing cue and did not want to mess up the tip(I'm sure it could take it) and I had more control. The BK is lighter and has the 314 and might just have a different feel (it always breaks great) then the Meucci does. Also, I am used to the Meucci more, since I have been playing for years with it and have not used it for breaking.

So, the weight within 1-2 oz. may not make a difference,..it is just what you get used to.

Griff

TonyM
09-26-2002, 11:33 AM
Good question Bob.

For a jump cue, you want the hardest tip you can possibly get your hands on. The current "hot" set-up for jump cues is to use some sort of hard synthetic tip (usually phenolic resin with impregnated powdered leather). The Bunjee is an example of this.

Some tests that I'm aware of have shown that a super hard tip is also useful for a break cue to prevent energy loss.

I've thought for some time that it would make sense therefore to use a Bunjee style tip on a jump break cue. Sure enough, the new jump break cues that Instroke are producing (makers of the Bunjee) use the same synthetic tip popularized on their jump only cues.

By the way, Instroke do sell Bunjee tips, so it is possible for you to order one and have it installed. Keep in mind that they are expensive.

Also, the bunjee tip makes a lot of noise. And it really doesn't hold chalk all that well. So you can forget about ever playing with a cue with this type of tip if anything ever happens to your playing cue.

A compromise might be a hard Water Buffalo tip, or a Sumo tip. (for solid leather tips).

Or, and extra hard layered pigskin tip would also work.

To maintain the low energy loss characteristics (good for jumping and breaking) have the tip cut down so that it is very low (about 0.080" to 0.090" crown) with a flatter curvature, like a quarter (you don't want it dead flat).

A triangle is a good playing tip. But it is not quite hard enough to be of benefit to a break or a jump cue.

Tony

09-26-2002, 06:24 PM
Tony,

Your answer is a tremendous help. I didn't realize the tip on a jump cue had to be so darned hard. For some reason I thought you'd want it more compressible. Obviously not.

Well, after spending $20 each on Moori Tips another $20 isn't going to kill me. Besides, it will last a long time being that hard. However, I do have a Sumo tip at home I've never used, so I may try it first.

Thanks much.

All the best,
Bob

Cueless Joey
09-26-2002, 06:39 PM
Wow, Moori for a jump cue?
Water buffalo tip is pretty hard. The black one specially.
Pretty cheap too.

09-26-2002, 07:05 PM
Sorry, Joey, what I wrote wasn't clear. What I meant was after spending $20 each on Moori tips for my playing cue, another $20 for a Bunjee tip for my break / jump cue wouldn't be that bad.

I have a rust brown Sumo tip at home, but you recommend another water buffalo tip, a black one, right? What's the brand name?

Thanks.

Bob

Cueless Joey
09-26-2002, 07:08 PM
It's called Water Buffalo. LOL
I believe WB. It's pretty common. Just tell the salesman, the stinky one. It reaks but hits HARD.

griffith_d
09-26-2002, 07:39 PM
Try a Talisman Pro XH,...it should really bust'em.

Griff

Sid_Vicious
09-26-2002, 08:43 PM
"Conclusion: it could have been just a more solid hit, I must say, I backed off a bit because....."

You hit the nail on the head. If you will pull the reigns back on those monster breaks I truly believe that the Pool Payback Gods will show you their gifts. People want to say that it's all important to hammer the bejebbers out of a 9-ball rack. That's crap! Hittem square, make a ball and stop the rock. Ain't no big deal...sid

rackmup
09-26-2002, 09:03 PM
Sid,

With all due respect, the proper way to break a 9-ball rack is:

<ul type="square"> Place the cueball two inches behind the headstring and 1/ 1/2 ball widths away from the long rail.
Chalk your 16-17 oz. break cue liberally.
Bridge between your index and middle fingers on the rail.
Grip the butt of the cue just a little farther back than normal and hold it very loose.
Take four-to-five practice strokes and aim just below center cueball. Aim at the meat of the one.
Slam that cue so hard into whitey that you actually see splinters fly, a chalk cloud floats into the air and your forward momentum actually carries your body up over the table with both feet off the ground.
The cueball should hit the light fixture above the table, the one ball should slam into the side pocket and whitey lands dead center of the table for shape.
Before attempting your next shot, remove the plugs from your ears (advise spectators that if they are going to watch you break again, in the interest of their hearing, they too, should wear earplugs), brush the splinters from the table and put a new shaft on your break cue (the old one is now worthless) and proceed to run out.
[/list]

Soft breaks are best left for one-pocket players.

Any questions? No? Okay...put them earplugs back in. It's my break.

Regards,

Ken

09-26-2002, 10:34 PM
There is a guy that sells the jump cue tips on ebay. You would have to look for them but they are a lot cheaper the Bungee. I think you get three for something $10.00

TonyM
09-26-2002, 11:29 PM
The Sumo would be fine. The water buffalo tips are WB brand. You would want the black ones.

Happy jump breaking!

Tony

phil in sofla
09-27-2002, 12:16 AM
The houseman I play sometimes got a new cue a while back. It was 16 oz., and she broke with it very effectively. Although she's strong and wirey, she weighs maybe a buck six. Her cue before was 18.5, and she broke with that cue well, but the lighter cue made a noticeable improvement, much to my surprise.

I understood that players using a lighter cue for breaking usually go just an ounce or so lighter, evidently finding that the value of the lighter weight has a negative tradeoff as you press the issue.

Just running a few numbers, if you can accelerate a 20 oz. cue to 20 miles per hour , a 17 oz. cue has to move at 21.7 miles per hour to give you the same kinetic energy, so, say, about 22 miles per hour to give you much more kinetic energy to transfer into the cue ball.

I guess since a cue is about 4 times heavier than a cue ball, a 20 mph cue ball may mean roughly a 9 mph cue speed. Doing the same 20 oz. v 17 oz. comparison, if your 20 oz. break cue gets up to 9 mph, you'd need the 17 oz. to do 9.8 mph for the same kinetic energy.

So are you going to get about 10% or more extra speed to make up for the less mass in the cue? You'd think so, since a 17 oz. cue is 15% less mass than a 20 oz., and we assume you're using maximum (controllable) force in both cases. The same force applied to a 15% less mass results in a 17.5% increase in acceleration (not velocity). However, a 17.5% increase in acceleration will make the same difference in the velocity over the same amount of time of acceleration (your final break stroke distance).

If I'm right, assuming your break has the same force, you will automatically get more energy out of a lighter cue. That would seem to mean if you can control the break stroke equally well, everyone should break with a light cue, and as light as possible.

Unless the reduced mass hurts your ability to keep the cue on line, or tempts you to overstroke your normal break stroke to compensate (which isn't necessary).

09-27-2002, 04:02 AM
Phil,

I'm not questioning your figures - I didn't drop them into the equations - but I am questioning one assumption, that the force is constant in your calculations, and therefore there is ever-increasing acceleration to make up for lost mass.

Here is what I posted just over a month ago before becoming a member. See if you agree.

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccbboard&amp;Number=32019&amp; Search=true&amp;Forum=ccbboard&amp;Words=mv2&amp;Match=Entire% 20Phrase&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Old=3months&amp;Main=31 521

but then, another Anonymous responded with this

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccbboard&amp;Number=32026&amp; page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=

which is a good point and one you mention too.

Bob

TonyM
09-27-2002, 08:24 AM
"Just running a few numbers, if you can accelerate a 20 oz. cue to 20 miles per hour , a 17 oz. cue has to move at 21.7 miles per hour to give you the same kinetic energy, so, say, about 22 miles per hour to give you much more kinetic energy to transfer into the cue ball. "

I'm not sure about the numbers, but in essance, yes it takes only a small increase in velocity to equal the change in kinetic energy due to the change in mass (1/2M*V*V).

"I guess since a cue is about 4 times heavier than a cue ball, a 20 mph cue ball may mean roughly a 9 mph cue speed. Doing the same 20 oz. v 17 oz. comparison, if your 20 oz. break cue gets up to 9 mph, you'd need the 17 oz. to do 9.8 mph for the same kinetic energy. "

The relationship between the cuestick mass and the cueball mass is not as simple as a multiplication.

Check Ron Shepard's APAPP paper for the correct formula. Essentially, if the cuestick is 3 times heavier than the cueball, the final cueball speed is 1.5 times that of the cueball, not 3 times. However, due to energy losses (known as the Coefficient of Restitution to scientific types)actual measurements have shown that the speed difference is closer to 1.3, not 1.5.

"The same force applied to a 15% less mass results in a 17.5% increase in acceleration (not velocity)."

But the problem is that we do not just accelerate the cuestick mass. We also have to accelerate the mass of our forearm/wrist/hand as well. It's mass stays the same.

So the amount of extra speed we can attain is based upon how much our forearm/hand mass limits are ability to accelerate up to speed WITHOUT a cue. Some people wouldn't get any more final cuespeed even if the stick were to weigh nothing!

So whether or not a player will benefit from a lighter weight cue is not always so cut and dry. Some might actually benefit from a slightly heavier cue.

I personally put a premium on control and not velocity. This tends to skew the results towards the heavier side of the equation.

Tony

09-27-2002, 09:45 AM
Another fine, informative post, Tony. Thanks.

Bob

09-27-2002, 10:39 AM
GREAT post by ToneyM!

Fred Agnir
09-27-2002, 10:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: phil in sofla:</font><hr> I guess since a cue is about 4 times heavier than a cue ball, a 20 mph cue ball may mean roughly a 9 mph cue speed. Doing the same 20 oz. v 17 oz. comparison, if your 20 oz. break cue gets up to 9 mph, you'd need the 17 oz. to do 9.8 mph for the same kinetic energy.

So are you going to get about 10% or more extra speed to make up for the less mass in the cue? You'd think so, since a 17 oz. cue is 15% less mass than a 20 oz., and we assume you're using maximum (controllable) force in both cases. The same force applied to a 15% less mass results in a 17.5% increase in acceleration (not velocity). However, a 17.5% increase in acceleration will make the same difference in the velocity over the same amount of time of acceleration (your final break stroke distance).<hr></blockquote>

If we say that the amount of energy available (from the player) to move the
stick is the same, and that the weight/mass of the players shoulders and arms are actually in play, then regardless of anything else, the Kinetic Energy of
the lighter stick should be nearly the same as the heavier stick. But, I think we
lose more energy in moving the heavier cue, so its KE should be less. But,
OTOH, I think the heavier cue has a higher return-of-energy to the cueball,
so the overall net transferred energy to the cueball should be about the
same as the lighter cue. On yet the other hand (how many hands can I go), the lighter the cue, the more efficient the energy transfer. Maybe.

Whoosh. It almost seems as if no matter how you
slice and dice, you can always find an advantage for either the heavier or
the lighter. That's why I think that comfort will be the main factor, as
the advantages for any given weight are cancelled out by its disadvantages.

Currently, a simple switch in one Schuler shaft to another Schuler type has paid immediate dividends if for nothing else less head shaking and less utterance of "what a crappy break that was."

Fred &lt;~~~ copying, pasting and modifying old quotes