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JJFSTAR
11-28-2011, 09:30 AM
Is it legal to come off the foot rail and contact the rack AFTER shooting into a rail? I think it is illegal but I cant seem to find it.

8FV
11-28-2011, 09:41 PM
I cannot say for certain, so don't quote me, but why would it be illegal? If it's the opening break, the cue ball has to hit a rail after the rack is hit along with two other balls. If they go foot rail, and into the rack, and it doesn't hit the rail after, that's a foul. If it's post-opening break, as long as something hits a rail after an object ball has been hit, regardless of whether it's a kick shot, I would suspect that's just a good hit.

But, again, I may be wrong.

Rich R.
11-28-2011, 10:37 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it legal to come off the foot rail and contact the rack AFTER shooting into a rail? I think it is illegal but I cant seem to find it. </div></div>
Why would it be illegal as long as the proper number of balls hit the rail after contact?
On the opening break, or after a 3 fould situation, the cue ball and two other balls have to hit the rail after contact.
In any other case, one ball, of any type, has to hit the rail after contact.

Bambu
11-29-2011, 09:26 AM
I would say the same. Cue ball could go 5 rails and tap a ball to the cushion, still good.

JJFSTAR
11-29-2011, 10:50 AM
Ok I think I found the "whys"

8FV
11-29-2011, 11:42 AM
Well, you have to clarify because you didn't mention that it was the opening break in your OP.

As I wrote in my original reply, on the opening break, not only do two balls have to touch a rail, but the cue ball, after striking an object ball, also has to strike a rail.

http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/index.asp?id=119&pagetype=rules#4.3

11-29-2011, 01:55 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 8FV</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, you have to clarify because you didn't mention that it was the opening break in your OP.

As I wrote in my original reply, on the opening break, not only do two balls have to touch a rail, but the cue ball, after striking an object ball, also has to strike a rail.

http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/index.asp?id=119&pagetype=rules#4.3 </div></div>

I think this clarifies things.

To add, on the opening break, it would prolly be the dumbest break in the history of Straight Pool, to go 2 rails, off the bottom rail and into the stack (and making 2 object balls hit a rail, along with the cueball).


Eric

Rich R.
11-29-2011, 03:04 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 8FV</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, you have to clarify because you didn't mention that it was the opening break in your OP.

As I wrote in my original reply, on the opening break, not only do two balls have to touch a rail, but the cue ball, after striking an object ball, also has to strike a rail.

http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/index.asp?id=119&pagetype=rules#4.3 </div></div>

I think this clarifies things.

To add, on the opening break, it would prolly be the dumbest break in the history of Straight Pool, to go 2 rails, off the bottom rail and into the stack (and making 2 object balls hit a rail, along with the cueball).


Eric </div></div>
Actually, other than the opening break, it is common to play the cue ball off of the back rail into the back of the rack. It is not dificult to get two balls to the rails for a great safe. However, this is not used on opening breaks because you just can't get the cue ball back out of the rack to a rail.

11-30-2011, 10:09 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 8FV</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, you have to clarify because you didn't mention that it was the opening break in your OP.

As I wrote in my original reply, on the opening break, not only do two balls have to touch a rail, but the cue ball, after striking an object ball, also has to strike a rail.

http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/index.asp?id=119&pagetype=rules#4.3 </div></div>

I think this clarifies things.

To add, on the opening break, it would prolly be the dumbest break in the history of Straight Pool, to go 2 rails, off the bottom rail and into the stack (and making 2 object balls hit a rail, along with the cueball).


Eric </div></div>
Actually, other than the opening break, it is common to play the cue ball off of the back rail into the back of the rack. It is not dificult to get two balls to the rails for a great safe. However, this is not used on opening breaks because you just can't get the cue ball back out of the rack to a rail. </div></div>

Agreed, which is why I specified the break.

I think it is more common to play to get just one ball to a rail, when playing safe. Either play one ball or take a deliberate foul. Playing two balls to a rail might be asking too much.


Eric

JJFSTAR
11-30-2011, 11:33 AM
Well according to those rules hitting the rail 1st and going into the back of the stack is legal as long a subsequently 2 balls hit a rail. What I need is irrefutable evidence that itís not. So:

4.3 Opening Break Shot
The following rules apply to the opening break shot: (a) The cue ball begins in hand behind the head string. (b) If no called ball is pocketed, the cue ball and two object balls must each be driven to a rail or the shot is a breaking foul.

If I go off the foot rail the requirement of the CB to a rail has been fulfilled, now as long as 2 balls hit a rail itís legal. I know it has to be written somewhere that itís not but it isnít clearly written there. I know what this MEANS but it isn't STATED that 2 balls have to go to a rail AFTER the rack is struck. It just says that the CB and 2 OB's have to go to a rail.

11-30-2011, 02:56 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well according to those rules hitting the rail 1st and going into the back of the stack is legal as long a subsequently 2 balls hit a rail. What I need is irrefutable evidence that itís not. So:

4.3 Opening Break Shot
The following rules apply to the opening break shot: (a) The cue ball begins in hand behind the head string. (b) If no called ball is pocketed, the cue ball and two object balls must each be driven to a rail or the shot is a breaking foul.

If I go off the foot rail the requirement of the CB to a rail has been fulfilled, now as long as 2 balls hit a rail itís legal. I know it has to be written somewhere that itís not but it isnít clearly written there. I know what this MEANS but it isn't STATED that 2 balls have to go to a rail AFTER the rack is struck. It just says that the CB and 2 OB's have to go to a rail.
</div></div>

I thought everyone's answers were pretty definitive, but I suppose we can nit pick...

It's generally accepted that when you are talking about balls that must contact a rail, it means after the CB has contacted an object ball. If not, then a kick shot in 9 ball would be legal if the CB came off a rail, touched the OB, but nothing hit a rail afterwards. I'm sure it's the same principal.

The other big point is that what moron would try an opening break like that? Even if the CB hitting a rail wasn't a requirement, getting 2 balls to hit a rail and not open up the rack for your opponent, to hit you with a big run, is akin to winning the lottery.


Eric &gt;Powerball or Mega Millions

Fran Crimi
11-30-2011, 05:35 PM
You're right. It's worded badly if the intent of the rule is that all three balls must be driven to a rail after the cb hits the rack.

There is a weak argument that can be made that the first half of the sentence that states "If no called ball is pocketed" can imply that the action of striking the rack has already taken place. But I think the wording can be rewritten to make it more certain with no room for doubt.

Writing rules is a tedious task. You constantly have to go back and forth between general rules and the individual game rules to stay consistent while writing and editing. You also have to make sure that the terms you use throughout the different games are also consistent.

Sometimes things will slip by like this one and when it does, it should be corrected.

JJFSTAR
12-01-2011, 07:21 AM
Good news everyone I found it in the ďWorld standardized rulesĒ, these are worded better than the BCA rules here it is:

6. OPENING BREAK. Starting player must either
(1) designate a ball and a pocket into which that ball will be pocketed and accomplish the shot, or (2) cause the cue ball to contact a ball and then a cushion, plus cause two object balls to contact a cushion.

Thank goodness, I knew it had to be written down somewhere. Boy does that AND THEN change everything.

Fran Crimi
12-01-2011, 09:52 AM
Wow, I thought you were originally quoting current World Stndardized Rules. Were you looking at an old BCA rule book? World Standardized Rules are updated every 5 years. The last update was effectice 1/1/2008. The BCA rule books from 2008 --&gt; on should reflect those changes.

JJFSTAR
12-01-2011, 10:37 AM
Well this is whatís on the BCA website right now effective 01/01/08:

4.3 Opening Break Shot
The following rules apply to the opening break shot: (a) The cue ball begins in hand behind the head string. (b) If no called ball is pocketed, the cue ball and two object balls must each be driven to a rail or the shot is a breaking foul.

Fran Crimi
12-01-2011, 01:19 PM
Wow. I guess they never updated their web site. At least their rule books are current.