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View Full Version : Bad table and my league team fell apart?



Soflasnapper
12-08-2011, 04:37 PM
To be fair to the table, it is probably ok-- but the floor it's on is not. Must be something new since the end of last season (they've bringing in bikers now), as we played there a couple of times last season and nothing like this was going on.

The tile or formica below one of the leg positions shattered or something, so I guess 'management' (?) put down some shims to support the one corner of the table above the crater that was left. And this has left the table with a bad lengthwise roll (south or toward the head rail is downhill).

Ok, so the roll meant any ball headed to the head rail side kept going, and balls going the width of the table rolled off toward the head rail side (and obviously so, a couple inches per a couple feet).

Yes, this was annoying, and meant that it was hard to know where the cue ball or other balls would end up. HOWEVER, the cure was not so difficult to understand-- hit the shots with about medium speed, and almost no roll would come into play. Especially shots paralleling the length of the table should roll straight.

But this seemed to spook my guys, all of them decent league players, some very good players. None could reliably make even simple shots where this roll wasn't going to be a factor. They'd miss, even with ball in hand sometimes.

Weird, but I suppose when any part of your confidence goes, maybe it always hurts your entire game? Or, perhaps in trying to compensate, people over-hit shots unnecessarily?

I've had very bad games on defective tables, which I blame on losing my confidence. Oddly in this case, the occasional bad roll didn't bother me, I won my three games, and the match on the double-hill with the last one.

Ever lose your game entirely because of a bad table roll?

Bambu
12-08-2011, 07:52 PM
It is pretty frustrating when the table is bad. I used to play for a bar that did live shows on the weekends. So they'd move the table off the floor every time, and never put it back quite the right way. Sometimes it was so bad, almost all the balls would hug the short rail after the break. You can usually get it to roll half decent if you show up early enough to fool around with the right combination of coasters under each leg.

Fran Crimi
12-08-2011, 09:19 PM
I have a real problem understanding league play on inadequate equipment. What kind of league allows this kind of thing to happen? I would imagine you're paying money each week to compete. You should be entitled to play on a table that isn't ridiculously off level like you describe.

Where in the rules does it say you have to agree to play on crap?

Rich R.
12-09-2011, 05:27 AM
This is exactly why I don't play in a travel league. Maybe I'm lucky but I only play leagues in actual pool rooms, with in-house leagues and decent equipment.

wolfdancer
12-09-2011, 08:39 PM
when playing on a bad table...the home team has a decided advantage, everything else being equal. With your experience, you probably compensated /adjusted for the "bad rolls"a little quicker then your teammates.

cushioncrawler
12-10-2011, 09:44 AM
I thort that pool tables had skrew adjustors on each leg -- 60 seconds with a spanner and some roll-tests and bobs your uncle.

My 12' table at home haz 8 legs with skrew adjustors -- and it woz made in about 1870.
For the four corner legs i kan just kneel down and grab the bottoms and adjust (turn) up or down uzing just my bare hands. The other 4 legs hav more wt on them but i kan uzually turn theze with my bare hands allso, or else uze a large skrewdriver in the holes placed there for that purpose.

But u pool guys shood try playing on a 12' table, ie with a nappy woollen bedkloth (the standard for billiards and snooker).

With nappy bedkloths the ball rolls straight for 4 direktions only -- every other direktion givs a kurved trajektory -- sometimes to the left, sometimes to the right -- uzually less than 1 ball of roll, but on some tables u kan get 2 balls of roll.
All slow shots are fraught -- no matter how level the table -- talking about center hits here, not spins shots.

And if u uze side (spin, english), well, the ball might kurv 3 balls left, it might kurv 3 balls right, or it might go straight.

If u say hit the qball low and left, it WILL push out to the right a little (az uzual) -- and then it WILL swerv left a bit (az uzual, due to masse) -- but then it MIGHT kurv further left or it MIGHT kurv right (due to the spin and nap).

Some old tables hav old slates -- and most old slates are bent -- and u kan never get bent slates level -- if u fix one corner or end u make a problem somewhere else.
My table dates to about 1870 -- but the slates hav been stolen from a table from around 1910 i think. The old slates must hav bent -- or praps one broke, and hencely all 4 needed replacing.
mac.

Soflasnapper
12-10-2011, 07:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a real problem understanding league play on inadequate equipment. What kind of league allows this kind of thing to happen? I would imagine you're paying money each week to compete. You should be entitled to play on a table that isn't ridiculously off level like you describe.

Where in the rules does it say you have to agree to play on crap? </div></div>

It's mainly a local bar room league, so most of the tables are whatever the bars have-- almost all have 8-foot coin-ops (this one happens to be the only 9-footer place except our own, which is a real pool hall with all 9-foot Brunswick GCs or Medalists).

Money, no, we don't pay much-- $20 for an 18 week session, including a free round of whatever you're drinking each week. We are not out of pocket for that deal at all, really.

Still, on some occasions, the league has required bars to fix their equipment. Rarely though.

Soflasnapper
12-10-2011, 07:35 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">when playing on a bad table...the home team has a decided advantage, everything else being equal. With your experience, you probably compensated /adjusted for the "bad rolls"a little quicker then your teammates. </div></div>

Our only saving grace, and it almost wasn't enough, was that the other team was having as much or more problems with their own confidence on the table as we were.

Fran Crimi
12-10-2011, 09:16 PM
$20 for 18 weeks? So you pay just over a dollar per week plus you get a free drink?

I pay $16 per week for 12 weeks in my league and have to pay for all beverages. Playoffs can last another 3 weeks or more at $16 a shot.

It sounds like it's more about getting you guys in their establishments to drink rather than anything else. Well, if you're all spending money on drinks they should be able to fix the tables for you. That's the least they can do.

Soflasnapper
12-11-2011, 11:40 AM
But at the the end, some team or teams from your league go to Vegas, correct? (Showing my firm grasp of the obvious!)

Tony_in_MD
12-12-2011, 06:10 AM
We have the same problems on the traveling league I play in. You just have to remind yourself of this rule.

"Never slow roll a ball on a bar table."

Fran Crimi
12-12-2011, 08:47 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But at the the end, some team or teams from your league go to Vegas, correct? (Showing my firm grasp of the obvious!)</div></div>

I'm glad you mentined that. That's a problem. We have to join the BCAPL (the dues is in addition to what I mentioned before) because our league operator says so, but we're playing 14.1. There are no 14.1 finals in Vegas so there's no Vegas trip for any of us.

I haven't been able to get a straight answer as to why we have to join. I don't mind joining a league system, but only if it makes sense.

But enough about me. Well, I guess if your team is stuck with bad equipment, they should probably just think in terms of pocketing one ball at a time and not focus too much on too many shots ahead. Sounds like the rolls will be unpredictable anyway. When I fall out of stroke, I try to pull myself back into the present and put all of my focus on pocketing the ball I'm shooting and not worry too much about position.

cushioncrawler
12-12-2011, 03:14 PM
Nearly forgot.
Direktionally nappy billiards bedkloths hav two other peculiar propertys.

FRIKTION.
If u are the type who loves back-hand-pivot and uzes bridge-length to kontrol the rezult then u had better kum to grips with the fakt that a billiards bedkloth friktion varys with direktion.
The max friktion iz against the nap -- here u need a longish bridge.
The minimum aint direktly with the nap -- no, it iz elsewhere.

ROLL SPEED.
And, a ball rolls lesserest when rolling against the nap -- koz the roll rezistance iz a max.
But the minimum roll rezistance aint direktly with the nap -- no, it iz elsewhere.
mac.

Fran Crimi
12-12-2011, 09:08 PM
Do we still use directional cloth here in the States? I haven't seen it in at least 10 years, even in bars.

cushioncrawler
12-13-2011, 01:25 AM
World snooker duznt put up with direktional nap no more.
They get kloth that haz been double shaved -- hardly any nap at all -- hencely very fast, and very straight (ifn the table iz level).
mac.

Rich R.
12-13-2011, 07:45 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But at the the end, some team or teams from your league go to Vegas, correct? (Showing my firm grasp of the obvious!)</div></div>

I'm glad you mentined that. That's a problem. We have to join the BCAPL (the dues is in addition to what I mentioned before) because our league operator says so, but we're playing 14.1. There are no 14.1 finals in Vegas so there's no Vegas trip for any of us.

I haven't been able to get a straight answer as to why we have to join. I don't mind joining a league system, but only if it makes sense.

But enough about me. Well, I guess if your team is stuck with bad equipment, they should probably just think in terms of pocketing one ball at a time and not focus too much on too many shots ahead. Sounds like the rolls will be unpredictable anyway. When I fall out of stroke, I try to pull myself back into the present and put all of my focus on pocketing the ball I'm shooting and not worry too much about position. </div></div>
I won't say there aren't any but, I have never heard of a BCA 14.1 league. If this is just an in-house 14.1 league, I see no real reason for joining the BCA. I would have to become a PITA for the league operator and press him for an answer as to why you have to be a BCAPL member when you can't really win anything out of it.

BTW, in my 14.1 league, we all pay $100 up front, which goes directly into the prize fund. We also pay a $50 deposit, which is refunded when you finish all of your matches. When matches are played, the loser pays the one person rate for table time for the match and it is capped at a max of $15.
I don't think it is a bad deal.

Fran Crimi
12-13-2011, 09:19 AM
Well, the LO said something to me like --- some people in our league need the membership to go to Vegas, so by making our league a BCAPL league, they become qualified. I didn't press the issue of how that qualifies them because it's really not that important to me. What was important to me was that it was not going to change and I have to accept it.

I guess you have to play in a BCAPL league for a certain number of weeks to qualify for Vegas. Are there singles events in Vegas? Maybe it doesn't matter what league you play in as long as you have a certain number of weeks played? All I know is that if I want to play in my local 14.1 league, I have to join the BCAPL.

Rich R.
12-13-2011, 02:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, the LO said something to me like --- some people in our league need the membership to go to Vegas, so by making our league a BCAPL league, they become qualified. I didn't press the issue of how that qualifies them because it's really not that important to me. What was important to me was that it was not going to change and I have to accept it.

I guess you have to play in a BCAPL league for a certain number of weeks to qualify for Vegas. Are there singles events in Vegas? Maybe it doesn't matter what league you play in as long as you have a certain number of weeks played? All I know is that if I want to play in my local 14.1 league, I have to join the BCAPL. </div></div>
It sucks that you have to incure the extra expense just to let a few qualify to go to Vegas. You may as well just buy them a plane ticket. IMHO, if they want to go to Vegas that badly, let them join a regular BCAPL team.
The BCAPL is also to blame for this situation because they allow it.

Tony_in_MD
12-20-2011, 04:13 PM
No nap here, just bar tables that need to be leveled.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nearly forgot.
Direktionally nappy billiards bedkloths hav two other peculiar propertys.

FRIKTION.
If u are the type who loves back-hand-pivot and uzes bridge-length to kontrol the rezult then u had better kum to grips with the fakt that a billiards bedkloth friktion varys with direktion.
The max friktion iz against the nap -- here u need a longish bridge.
The minimum aint direktly with the nap -- no, it iz elsewhere.

ROLL SPEED.
And, a ball rolls lesserest when rolling against the nap -- koz the roll rezistance iz a max.
But the minimum roll rezistance aint direktly with the nap -- no, it iz elsewhere.
mac. </div></div>

Soflasnapper
12-20-2011, 07:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">World snooker duznt put up with direktional nap no more.
They get kloth that haz been double shaved -- hardly any nap at all -- hencely very fast, and very straight (ifn the table iz level).
mac. </div></div>

Is that true? We just got ourselves a ringer, who is mainly a snooker player. He was telling me that he was just watching the... I dunno, the Federation or something? ... anyway, the next to best level, he said. And he mentioned nap on the cloth as something that makes snooker harder than it even looks.

Maybe those aren't incompatible (maybe he was talking about playing at the club level, and maybe at the higher competition levels they have ended it)?

Soflasnapper
12-20-2011, 07:05 PM
Fran, bizarre that you pay so much, and don't have at least the possibility of a trip for the winning team. I understand there is no 14.1 competition (or at least, now I know that, having heard it from you!), but then I'd think the money should be a lot less.

(Somebody's doing quite well with this arrangement, don't you think?)

Making the proverbial one ball at a time has got to be the answer, when anything more than that is so dicey, agreed.

Fran Crimi
12-20-2011, 09:02 PM
Yup. I know what you mean, but I try to remember that this is Manhattan. Amsterdam Billiards has to pay their high rent and a whole lot of other expenses. I like the idea of them staying in business. When I look at it that way, I figure $16 per week is my contribution to the cause.

LWW
12-28-2011, 05:01 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To be fair to the table, it is probably ok-- but the floor it's on is not. Must be something new since the end of last season (they've bringing in bikers now), as we played there a couple of times last season and nothing like this was going on.

The tile or formica below one of the leg positions shattered or something, so I guess 'management' (?) put down some shims to support the one corner of the table above the crater that was left. And this has left the table with a bad lengthwise roll (south or toward the head rail is downhill).

Ok, so the roll meant any ball headed to the head rail side kept going, and balls going the width of the table rolled off toward the head rail side (and obviously so, a couple inches per a couple feet).

Yes, this was annoying, and meant that it was hard to know where the cue ball or other balls would end up. HOWEVER, the cure was not so difficult to understand-- hit the shots with about medium speed, and almost no roll would come into play. Especially shots paralleling the length of the table should roll straight.

But this seemed to spook my guys, all of them decent league players, some very good players. None could reliably make even simple shots where this roll wasn't going to be a factor. They'd miss, even with ball in hand sometimes.

Weird, but I suppose when any part of your confidence goes, maybe it always hurts your entire game? Or, perhaps in trying to compensate, people over-hit shots unnecessarily?

I've had very bad games on defective tables, which I blame on losing my confidence. Oddly in this case, the occasional bad roll didn't bother me, I won my three games, and the match on the double-hill with the last one.

Ever lose your game entirely because of a bad table roll?






</div></div>

Welcome to league billiards.

Qtec
01-23-2012, 07:33 PM
If you are playing on a table that rolls off and you know it rolls off, you have play with it. Accept the conditions and like you said,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">HOWEVER, <u>the cure was not so difficult to understand</u>-- hit the shots with about medium speed, and almost no roll would come into play. Especially shots paralleling the length of the table should roll straight. </div></div>

Q

Qtec
01-23-2012, 07:37 PM
The thinner the cloth, the quicker it wears out. No club owner would ever put pro cloth on all his tables, its just too expensive. Idiots who do not know how to hold a cue can rip it up in a second.
Its more likely that there might be a couple of tables in a club with this super fast pro cloth but access would be limited.

You will always have drift on a snooker cloth going against the nap. Its because when laying the cloth, its stretched towards the pockets and pinned. If you play a slow shot against the nap to the middle pocket, it will always drift, even with the pro cloth but less so that normal cloth. Still, when you see such a shot played by the pro's to the middle pocket, they never play it soft.

Qtec

Sid_Vicious
01-24-2012, 12:35 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thinner the cloth, the quicker it wears out. No club owner would ever put pro cloth on all his tables, its just too expensive. Idiots who do not know how to hold a cue can rip it up in a second.
Its more likely that there might be a couple of tables in a club with this super fast pro cloth but access would be limited.

You will always have drift on a snooker cloth going against the nap. Its because when laying the cloth, its stretched towards the pockets and pinned. If you play a slow shot against the nap to the middle pocket, it will always drift, even with the pro cloth but less so that normal cloth. Still, when you see such a shot played by the pro's to the middle pocket, they never play it soft.

Qtec

</div></div>

"Still, when you see such a shot played by the pro's to the middle pocket, they never play it soft."

I never paid attention to that Q. Thanks. sid

Qtec
01-24-2012, 07:37 AM
Thank you sid.

Just to expand on that, when you see a player making the pink in the middle pocket and drawing back for the next red, that's really how you should hit almost every ball.

If you watch the top snooker players they all play the same way, they all have the same stroke, the are forced to by the table. You have to play positive and release the cue.
Players don't want to let the ball roll because it might roll off or you might get a kick/throw effect. To eliminate or reduce these factors, players hit every shot crisply. In that way they have more chance that the QB hit the OB at the intended spot.

Through evolution, maybe /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whistle.gif snooker players have evolved the new way of playing pool! Darren Appleton ? Fisher?

Q

cushioncrawler
01-24-2012, 02:50 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.....You will always have drift on a snooker cloth going against the nap. Its because when laying the cloth, its stretched towards the pockets and pinned. If you play a slow shot against the nap to the middle pocket, it will always drift, even with the pro cloth but less so that normal cloth. Still, when you see such a shot played by the pro's to the middle pocket, they never play it soft. Qtec</div></div>Q -- I hav heard players say that funny stretching affekts roll. But the real cause iz the nap. I will put in a link to an article that i did -- DriftKurv. It allso inkloods some stuff on SpinKurv.
mac.
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/2274076/chapter-78-pdf-1-pdf-october-1-2010-9-33-pm-595k

cushioncrawler
01-24-2012, 02:54 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..... Players don't want to let the ball roll because it might roll off or you might get a kick/throw effect. To eliminate or reduce these factors, players hit every shot crisply. In that way they have more chance that the QB hit the OB at the intended spot..... Q</div></div>Q -- One way to eliminate kix (or at least to eliminate kick-throw) iz to uze natural english, ie for the pot, ie for the ball'to'ball kontakt.
U hav more chance of getting a kick when u uze english -- but if natural (ie outside) english then the objektball throw iz zero (ie kick or no-kick) -- just dont forget to hit hardish, else the objektball will hang koz a kick will still rob speed.
Here iz a link to an article i did -- kix are mentioned at page 20.
Some of this iz a bit wrong or a lot wrong -- especially in the light of stuff dunn by Dr Dave -- i will havta rewrite one day.
mac.
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/2274075/chapter-77-pdf-1-pdf-october-1-2010-9-33-pm-335k