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Sev
12-16-2011, 08:04 AM
Its definitely the gift that keeps on giving.

Agent Brian Terry deserves justice as do the hundreds of Mexicans murdered due to this operation .

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>At a minimum it should be holders head on a pike.
</span>
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ate-758295296/
<span style='font-size: 20pt'> Officials cover up culpability for gun smuggling and murder</span>

Who is going to defend Obama and holder for an operation designed to cause mass murders in order to stage an attack on the second amendment?
Perhaps Obama can offer another apology.

A year ago this week, U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was murdered. He died protecting his country from brutal Mexican gangsters. Two AK-47 assault rifles were found at his death site. We now know the horrifying truth: Agent Terry was killed by weapons that were part of an illegal Obama administration operation to smuggle arms to the dangerous drug cartels. He was a victim of his own government. This is not only a major scandal; it is a high crime that potentially reaches all the way to the White House, implicating senior officials. It is President Obama’s Watergate.

Operation Fast and Furious was run by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) and overseen by the Justice Department. It started under the leadership of Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. Fast and Furious enabled straw gun purchases from licensed dealers in Arizona, in which more than 2,000 weapons were smuggled to Mexican drug kingpins. ATF claims it was seeking to track the weapons as part of a larger crackdown on the growing violence in the Southwest. Instead, ATF effectively has armed murderous gangs. About 300 Mexicans have been killed by Fast and Furious weapons. More than 1,400 guns remain lost. Agent Terry likely will not be the last U.S. casualty.

Mr. Holder insists he was unaware of what took place until after media reports of the scandal appeared in early 2011. This is false. Such a vast operation only could have occurred with the full knowledge and consent of senior administration officials. Massive gun-running and smuggling is not carried out by low-level ATF bureaucrats unless there is authorization from the top. There is a systematic cover-up.

Congressional Republicans, however, are beginning to shed light on the scandal. Led by Sen. Chuck Grassley of Iowa and Rep. Darrell Issa of California, a congressional probe is exposing the Justice Department’s rampant criminality and deliberate stonewalling. Assistant Attorney General Lanny A. Breuer, who heads the department’s criminal division, helped craft a February letter to Congress that denied ATF had ever walked guns into Mexico. Yet, under pressure from congressional investigators, the department later admitted that Mr. Breuer knew about ATF gun-smuggling as far back as April 2010. In other words, Mr. Breuer has been misleading Congress. He should resign - or be fired.

Instead, Mr. Holder tenaciously insists that Mr. Breuer will keep his job. He needs to keep his friends close and potential witnesses even closer. Another example is former acting ATF Director Kenneth Melson. Internal documents show Mr. Melson directly oversaw Fast and Furious, including monitoring numerous straw purchases of AK-47s. He has admitted to congressional investigators that he, along with high-ranking ATF leaders, reassigned every “manager involved in Fast and Furious” after the scandal surfaced on Capitol Hill and in the press. Mr. Melson said he was ordered by senior Justice officials to be silent regarding the reassignments. Hence, ATF managers who possess intimate and damaging information - especially on the role of the Justice Department - essentially have been promoted to cushy bureaucratic jobs. Their silence has been bought, their complicity swept under the rug. Mr. Melson has been transferred to Justice’s main office, where he serves as a “senior adviser” on forensic science in the department’s Office of Legal Policy. Rather than being punished, Mr. Melson has been rewarded for his incompetence and criminal negligence.

Mr. Holder and his aides have given misleading, false and contradictory testimony on Capitol Hill. Perjury, obstruction of justice and abuse of power - these are high crimes and misdemeanors. Mr. Holder should be impeached. Like most liberals, he is playing the victim card, claiming Mr. Issa is a modern-day Joseph McCarthy conducting a judicial witch hunt. Regardless of this petty smear, Mr. Holder must be held responsible and accountable - not only for the botched operation, but for his flagrant attempts to deflect blame from the administration.

Mr. Holder is a shameless careerist and a ruthless Beltway operative. For years, his out-of-control Justice Department has violated the fundamental principle of our democracy, the rule of law. He has refused to prosecute members of the New Black Panthers for blatant voter intimidation that took place in the 2008 election. Career Justice lawyers have confessed publicly that Mr. Holder will not pursue cases in which the perpetrators are black and the victims white. States such as Arizona and Alabama are being sued for simply attempting to enforce federal immigration laws. Mr. Holder also opposes voter identification cards, thereby enabling fraud and vote-stealing at the ballot box. What else can we expect from one who, during the Clinton administration, helped pardon notorious tax cheat Marc Rich and Puerto Rican terrorists?

Mr. Holder clearly knew about Fast and Furious and did nothing to stop it. This is because the administration wanted to use the excuse of increased violence on the border and weapons-smuggling into Mexico to justify tighter gun-control legislation. Mr. Holder is fighting ferociously to prevent important internal Justice documents from falling into the hands of congressional investigators. If the full nature of his involvement is discovered, the Obama presidency will be in peril.

Fast and Furious is even worse than Watergate for one simple reason: No one died because of President Nixon’s political dirty tricks and abuse of government power. But Brian Terry is dead; and there are still 1,500 missing guns threatening still more lives.

What did Mr. Obama know? Massive gun-smuggling by the U.S. government into a foreign country does not happen without the explicit knowledge and approval of leading administration officials. It’s too big, too risky and too costly. Mr. Holder may not be protecting just himself and his cronies. Is he protecting the president?

llotter
12-16-2011, 09:16 AM
In the world of the street thug that The Moron calls home, eloquent speakers are in the highest positions of respect and adulation, exactly what the narcissist craves. Likewise, in that thug world, Holder is a key Consigliere and don't be surprised if it is discovered that all those guns were just being transferred to their gangland friends rather than some elaborate scheme to catch criminals. The explains what has been thus far unexplained.

Sev
12-16-2011, 09:29 AM
Funny how the left isnt outraged by all the Mexicans have been murdered thus far from this operation.

I guess Hispanics are truly only valuable for their vote in the US and nothing more.

cushioncrawler
12-16-2011, 02:18 PM
I reckon that this iz (shood be) all about drugs -- not guns.
Guns shood be illegal.
Drugs shood be legal.
Any other sort of arguement misses by a mile -- and iz a waste of time.
mac.

Soflasnapper
12-16-2011, 05:30 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny how the left isnt outraged by all the Mexicans have been murdered thus far from this operation.

I guess Hispanics are truly only valuable for their vote in the US and nothing more. </div></div>

Silly comment. Nobody can be shown dead from these smuggled weapons who wouldn't be dead without them as well.

It's not as if there were NO WEAPONS being smuggled, then there were THESE, and only THESE resulted in deaths.

It's gang warfare, drug turf wars, they have plenty of weapons, and kill all kinds of each other, all the time. Whether or not there are 'walked' weapons.

We always hear that guns don't kill people, people do. What could be more clear than that in this case?

If you disagree, show me how the Mexican drug gangs were fighting with machetes and switchblades, until they got some fast and furious semi-automatic or fully automatic weapons.

Sev
12-16-2011, 05:41 PM
I disagree.
We know 1 agent was killed with these weapons.
We also know that other weapons that have been recovered have been used in murders.

Could they have found weapons elsewhere. Sure.
However the weapons used were those purchased through Fast and Furious. That makes the administration culpable for those weapons used in crimes.

ugotda7
12-16-2011, 06:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny how the left isnt outraged by all the Mexicans have been murdered thus far from this operation.

I guess Hispanics are truly only valuable for their vote in the US and nothing more. </div></div>

Silly comment. Nobody can be shown dead from these smuggled weapons who wouldn't be dead without them as well.

It's not as if there were NO WEAPONS being smuggled, then there were THESE, and only THESE resulted in deaths.

It's gang warfare, drug turf wars, they have plenty of weapons, and kill all kinds of each other, all the time. Whether or not there are 'walked' weapons.

We always hear that guns don't kill people, people do. What could be more clear than that in this case?

If you disagree, show me how the Mexican drug gangs were fighting with machetes and switchblades, until they got some fast and furious semi-automatic or fully automatic weapons. </div></div>

You have jedi level apologist skills.....you make Gayle proud.

Sev
12-16-2011, 08:28 PM
HAHHAHA

Soflasnapper
12-17-2011, 03:01 PM
I'm not sure we know that at all.

I think what has been reported is that the same type of weapon was used to kill someone as has been found to have been 'walked,' i.e., a .50-caliber sniper rifle. I have not seen reports of any evidence that the recovered round has been traced to any particular such sniper rifle to the exclusion of any others. In fact, by the nature of such sniper kills, one expects such a weapon to be a considerable distance away from the victim.

An apparently strong, but false, case can be weaved together by suggestive language, and I think that's all we have here.

So, let's say AK-47s were walked. We find a death scene where at least some of the deaths were from AK-47 rounds, and also, some AKs left there, which trace back to those that were allowed to walk. Proving that these particular guns that were walked caused these particular deaths, right? No, actually, that wouldn't necessarily be the case. All of that fact situation might be correctly reported, true, and yet, those weapons might still not be the ones that killed those persons.

We know how to link ammunition with the weapon from which it came, and has that been done in the case of any of these weapons? I don't think it has, not that I recall. I think I remember words like 'linked,' etc., which are not the same as 'proven.'

Note, even if this link is reported to be proven, it might or might not be so, and THEN, even presuming all of that checks out, I still raise the objection I already raised.

The gangs have a lot of guns, and a lot of sources for guns. When they want to kill people, they are not short of weapons or ammo, regardless of whether the ATF is providing some of it, or isn't.

eg8r
12-17-2011, 03:04 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An apparently strong, but false, case can be weaved together by suggestive language, and I think that's all we have here.
</div></div>Sounds like the exact same description of all the theories about Bush, the secretary, etc.

eg8r

cushioncrawler
12-17-2011, 03:15 PM
This thread iz serving nothing but to help conservativs. It misses what shood be the real target.
Drugs shood not be illegal -- except grog and fags.
Guns shood be illegal.

Drug laws = crime.
Drug laws = minorities.
Drug laws = prizons.
Drug laws = corruption.
Drug laws = terrorizm.
Drug laws = drug deaths.
Drug laws = gun deaths.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h31/captainswife/target_practice.jpg

Soflasnapper
12-17-2011, 05:09 PM
Here is a Fox description of these events, dating from Dec. 14th, fairly recently:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As for Mueller's remarks Wednesday, it's unclear if his latest comments will put to rest questions over how many guns were recovered at the scene of Terry's murder.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>An ATF "briefing paper" about the murder, obtained by Fox News and sent to top Justice Department officials in Washington two days after the incident, said that "during the search of the area two ... AK-47 rifles, serial numbers 1983AH3977 and 1971CZ3775 were recovered near the scene of the shooting."
</span>
But emails in the hours after the incident show at least some ATF officials wondered whether a third gun had been recovered.

In one email, deputy ATF-Phoenix director George Gillett asks if two AK-47 rifles cited were "in addition to the gun already recovered this morning." It's unclear whether anyone responded to him.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Since then, some sources have accused the FBI of covering up evidence to protect an informant working inside a major Mexican cartel. That informant, sources have alleged, helped pay for the weapons used in the attack that killed Terry.</span>

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>In addition, in recently disclosed recordings, a lead ATF investigator can be heard telling a Phoenix-area gun-dealer that an "SKS assault rifle out of Texas" had been found at the Terry murder scene.</span>

In September, a spokeswoman for Grassley, R-Iowa, told Fox News it was "pretty clear" the ATF agent was talking about the Terry murder. <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Still, weapons involved in another case not tied to "Fast and Furious" -- the murder of Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent Jaime Zapata in Mexico -- were traced to Texas.</span>

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12/.../#ixzz1gpstTzds (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12/14/fbi-director-denies-cover-up-involving-fast-and-furious-guns-found-at-border/#ixzz1gpstTzds)
</div></div>

This report does not say that the bullet that killed the border patrol agent had come from either of these two rifles associated with F&F. I haven't found any reports that do, or sometimes if stated in a sloppy fashion that might be interpreted that way, no explanation as to what evidence proved that to be true.

Honestly, and I am not baiting anyone, is there ANY REPORT YOU KNOW OF that nails down that either of these two weapons was anything more than found at the scene? As in, was the murder weapon?

If not, how big of suckers are you all to fall for this transparent propaganda, thinking that the loose language people have been using has been saying that, when it has not?