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09-26-2002, 09:19 PM
Just wondering if any one could help me figure out what mfg is better then the rest? Looked into Kasson, Olhausen, Brunswick, AMF and Connolly. Price and lifetime guarantee will weigh into my decision. I would mainly be a recreational shooter.

Chris Cass
09-26-2002, 09:49 PM
Hi Anon,

I would like to mention although your only a recreational shooter. One day you'll have to sell the table. Then, the buyers will be looking for a traditional name like Brunswick, a few others mentioned. JAT

Regards,

C.C.

Paul_Mon
09-27-2002, 06:27 AM
The following reply was originally posted by Gideon Forrest to the RSB forum.

The first thing to remember is that some of the people who sell pool
tables are idiots, and some are dishonest. There are good,
knowledgeable people out there too, but take everything you hear from
a salesman with a grain of salt, unless you know who they are. Also,
note that most (all?) pool tables have considerable margin of profit
for the dealer built into the MSRP, particularly on higher end tables,
so there is considerable room to bargain.

Here is some info I have posted before in various forms, gather
primarily when I was looking for my own table over a year ago:

You have to make a base choice between a furniture table and a
commercial table. The "industry standard" commercial table was, for
many years, the Brunswick Gold Crowns. The most recent version of that
table is the Gold Crown (or "GC") IV. They are not cheap, although
they do pop up quite regularly used (at least earlier models, like the
Gold Crown III). If looks aren't important to you, then get a
commercial table. The commercial tables like the GC are built to
withstand the demands of a bar or pool hall, where they are subject to
constant play and frequent abuse. The base-frame is made of heavier-
duty wood, the rails (and sometime the cabinet) are protected by a
laminate in order to resist dings and cigarette burns. Brunswick's
Website is http://www.diamondbilliard.com/ (http://www.brunswick-billiards.com/>http://www.brunswick-billiards.com/</a>) These
tables look very nice, but are very pricey (they make the GC look
cheap), and I don't know if you could find one used. There really are
gorgeous, well playing tables. I have never heard of anyone who has
one being disappointed, although be sure to consider carefully how
tight the pockets will be if you order their tighter pocket size.
Diamond doesn't have dealers everywhere, but they will sell one and
ship it directly to you, and I hear that may still be able to
negotiate on price when buying directly from them.

An even newer entry into the North American table market is Gabriels,
an established European three cushion billiard table manufacturer. I
crawled under a Gabriels Signature Pro table at the Valley Forge Expo,
and the combination of 1 and 1/4 " slate and steel U beam construction
is impressive. Add to that Artemis cushions and a good pocket design
(like Diamond's), and I would consider it a true rival for Diamond as
the best table money can buy (IMHO, of course).

If you are like me, however, and don't feel like spending the $$$$ on
a Diamond or a Gabriels, but still can't bring yourself to go with the
looks of GC, then you are in the world of furniture tables. These
tables, at their best, are made of solid hardwood and look beautiful.
When I looked, I only looked at Gandy, Brunswick, and Dufferin (I am
in Canada). I spent a lot of time looking at Brunswick tables,
however, before choosing a Gandy table see http://www.gandys.com/gandy_direct.htm (http://www.gandys.com/>http://www.gandys.com/</a>) ). For
what its worth, the reason I chose Gandy over Brunswick is the
construction of the base frame that holds up the slate. As I
understand it, in their commercial tables, Brunswick has a frame made
up of a rectangular box, with supports running down the width of the
table, AND a cross-member built in running the length of the table. On
their home (furniture) tables, they do NOT have the cross-member, and
in many, if not all, cases, use the outside frame of the table (the
skirt) with supports running down the width of the table only, as the
means of the supporting the slate. In the Gandy tables, the slate
support construction has the cross-member running the length of the
table, and uses a frame to support the slate, like the GC does
(although it is not quite as massive).

Note, also, that different tables by the same manufacturer can play
differently. Some manufacturers, including Brunswick, makes a low-end
table that is NOT a good table for the long run. Brunswick makes three
different lines of furniture tables. The cheapest line, the Rec Room
line, has tables which are not built to last - 3/4" slate rather than
1", particle board construction, etc. Even if you ignore everything
else I say, please don't buy one of these - you would be better off
with a used hardwood table. The top of the line are the Showpiece
series, which are fine tables, but really expensive, and you are
really paying for fancy carving. The mid-level Game Room series, IMO,
is the best bet among the Brunswicks. The tables should be solid
hardwood, they look pretty enough, and have the same construction
features as the Showpiece series (I think). (Note that Brunswick has
recently stopped marketing the tables grouped as I describe, but it
should be obvious which tables fall into which catogories by looking
at the construction.)

Tables by the same manufacturers using the same construction methods
and materials SHOULD play similarly. Other manufacturers, such as
Gandy, only make hardwood tables. I can't speak about the other
manufacturers, but the important thing to keep in mind is to determine
if the essential elements of the construction - the base frame, the
slate support, the slate itself, and the rails - are the same within
each table-maker's line. Crawl under the tables in the showroom if you
have to. Diamond (who make the really good expensive commecial tables)
now make furniture tables, which are cheaper. They didn't exist when I
bought mine, and their website tells little about them. Given how good
their other tables are, I would definitely consider them, although I
have heard that the construction is not as good as the commercial
tables.

There are a number of other manufacturers that have their supporters
in the group, including SAM Kim Steele, Pinnacle, Lemacher, A.E.
Schmidt, Olhausen and AMF. The Schmidt tables in particular have a
good reputation for furniture tables.

Whatever table you get, buy top quality cloth (either Simonis or
Granito). All other cloths are inferior, and anyone who tells you to
"save" a hundred dollars or so on the cloth is an idiot. Good cloth
lasts longer, and plays better. Also, get good balls - either Aramith
Super Pro balls, or Brunswick Centennials. Don't skimp on either one -
they aren't that expensive, and it does make a difference.

As a final note, I enclose a list of things to look for (problems)
that Bob Jewett listed awhile back. Note that the "unheated" remark
applies equally to all pool tables, as only pocketless billiard tables
are heated at the moment (in other words, ignore that one, IMO).

"How about service? Is the retailer willing to fix any defect in the
first year? Here are some things to avoid. Unfortunately, some of the
problems won't show up for years. Some of these are due to bad
installation.
flimsy construction
flimsy trim
pocket liner turns gummy and comes off on cue stick
pocket liner fits badly, catching and rejecting balls
pocket liner fastening falls apart
pocket liner tacks are exposed and chip balls
badly designed rack-hanger
badly designed bridge-hanger
pockets stick up too high
pockets have sharp parts that can tear clothes or cut hands
pockets reject balls that are shot straight in
pocket facings cupped and reject balls
"drop pockets" allow the balls to rattle for several seconds
flimsy score wheels
thin slate
unheated
aluminum parts leave black marks on clothes
awkward ball storage slots
ball return system loses balls
rail rubber badly installed or loose
cloth put on wrong
rails misaligned (side noses not in line)
loose rails (either hard to bolt on or just neglected)
cracked slate
diamond markings are hard to see
ball return hopper skins knuckles
ball return hopper decomposes"

Good luck with the hunt! If you do your homework, you should find a
table you will treasure.

Gideon


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ken
09-27-2002, 08:55 AM
Diamond is selling 100 tables at $4,000 for the month of September through the US Open:

<a target="_blank" href=http://q-masters.com/2002Special.htm>http://q-masters.com/2002Special.htm</a>

That seems to be a good discount that will beat the price on the GC IVs ($9,629) by quite a bit. I don't see why Gideon says the Diamonds are "very pricey" at $6,500 compared to the GC. Check to see if any accessories are included, however.
KenCT

Cueless Joey
09-27-2002, 10:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Ken:</font><hr> Diamond is selling 100 tables at $4,000 for the month of September through the US Open:

<a target="_blank" href=http://q-masters.com/2002Special.htm>http://q-masters.com/2002Special.htm</a>

That seems to be a good discount that will beat the price on the GC IVs ($9,629) by quite a bit. I don't see why Gideon says the Diamonds are "very pricey" at $6,500 compared to the GC. Check to see if any accessories are included, however.
KenCT <hr></blockquote>
How I wish I live around that area. Grrrrrrrrr.
You guys are lucky. Here in SoCal, there is no room to place a pool table unless you have a half-million dollar home. I used to have a GC II in my garage (for only a few months) then had to get rid of it when my brother and I sold our house. There are still GC I and II floating around for around 2 to 2.5 K. Getting hard to find though.
Diamond tables are great. If I had to get a NEW table, I'd get Diamond Pro with Artemis cushions. I think they are better than GC IV. I've never heard of a unsatisfied Diamond table owner.

Scott Lee
09-29-2002, 09:03 PM
The Diamonds are GREAT tables, but I think the Gabriels beats them all!...and it is in the same price range as the Diamonds.

Scott Lee

09-30-2002, 09:12 AM
Regardless of which table you buy . . . buy the same table that you will play your league or tournaments on. My friends all have 8 or 9 foot tables at home, and I have a 7 foot bar box. All our league/tournament matches are on 7 foot tables. Guess who is the better player.

Wally_in_Cincy
09-30-2002, 10:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> Regardless of which table you buy . . . buy the same table that you will play your league or tournaments on. My friends all have 8 or 9 foot tables at home, and I have a 7 foot bar box. All our league/tournament matches are on 7 foot tables. Guess who is the better player. <hr></blockquote>

Probably the one who practices more.

griffith_d
09-30-2002, 11:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> Regardless of which table you buy . . . buy the same table that you will play your league or tournaments on. My friends all have 8 or 9 foot tables at home, and I have a 7 foot bar box. All our league/tournament matches are on 7 foot tables. Guess who is the better player. <hr></blockquote>

I you are going to play on 6 foots, I would still buy a 8 foot,...going from a 8 to a 6 will make it easy shooting. It is harder the other way around.

Griff

Joe Marra
10-01-2002, 03:11 PM
Thank you Scott, if anyone is interested I still have a table left over in Las Vegas. $4,250.00 loaded on a truck.

10-01-2002, 06:20 PM
Joe, I have two questions. How much to ship the table to St.George, Utah and do you take Visa/MasterCard? Total price delivered to my door? Thank you Randy

Joe Marra
10-01-2002, 08:02 PM
Randy, give me a call at 561-945-4448, Joe

Joe Marra
10-02-2002, 09:23 AM
Randy, I need a zip code to get a freight rate, please advise. Joe Marra

10-02-2002, 11:13 AM
zip is 84770. Thx, Randy

Joe Marra
10-02-2002, 12:58 PM
Randy, The rate I got from yellow frieght is $348.31 and $4,250.00 for the table. Joe If you need to contact me my address is jomarra@msn.com

Scott Lee
10-03-2002, 09:16 PM
Randy...As you know, it is only a 100 miles to Vegas from St. George. If you can get a pickup, I would just drive down and pick it up yourself. Spend a couple hundred to have a good mechanic set it up, though! You'll love the table!

Scott Lee