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SdotKELLS
01-11-2012, 11:04 AM
I was playing in my local pool league last night and I got in a debate with my father in law. Here is the question..

On appoximately what % of shots to professional pool players use some kind of english on the cue ball.

Thank you for your help.

BCA Master Instr
01-11-2012, 12:21 PM
How would any of us know?

I will take a educated guess, average....30%

randyg

SdotKELLS
01-11-2012, 12:24 PM
Well he was saying that most pros use middle ball, no english on most shots, i always thought that a pro used english on basically every shot, even it was just a little bit.

Rich R.
01-11-2012, 01:36 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SdotKELLS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well he was saying that most pros use middle ball, no english on most shots, i always thought that a pro used english on basically every shot, even it was just a little bit. </div></div>
I've been to a number of pro tournaments and I try to observe the players as best as possible without being a fanatic.
From my observations, I would say that some players use more side spin than others. None avoid it altogether and none use it on every shot. The percentage of using side spin as opposed to not using it varies from player to player. There is no constant.

How's that for a definitive answer? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whistle.gif

JJFSTAR
01-11-2012, 02:48 PM
In George Fels book Pool advanced techniques in mastering the game he speculates that there are a few mutants out there but there are 2 basic types of players “tipsters” and “speedsters”. This is true of pro’s and armatures alike.

“Tipsters” (for the most part) would rather control the CB with spin predominately where as “speedsters” stay away from deviating from the vertical line (for the most part) unless it yields them big rewards. From my personal observation over the years 8 & 9ball players are mostly “tipsters” and 14.1 & one-pocket players are mostly “speedsters”.

This is why you get the 2 different answers to the same question among people who are A, AA and pro players. The answer to your question is that there is no “right” answer. The answer is that it is player and game specific.

Even among the speedster group you will still see many of them use what I call “action” and I say that is different than “English”. I have seen darn few pro’s that use centerball on well over half their shots even though the great Mosconi said that’s the way to play good pool.

JJFSTAR
01-11-2012, 02:57 PM
In short you are closer than your father-in-law

Sid_Vicious
01-11-2012, 07:18 PM
IMO, I think that very many good players "work" english into most all shots. It might be undetectable BH or slight pivot, and all the way to spin extremes when working for short position, or running a bunch of rails with less effort. IMO I think that most all above average players use some english more times than not every time they shoot. sid

Bambu
01-12-2012, 08:31 AM
It all depends on what generation you are talking about, so to me you are both right. Before say, 1985-ish there wasnt that much 9 ball around. All we played was straight pool and some chicago back then. You watch those old timers play good straight pool, and most of em do it using very little english. The better their position, the less english they need. 9 ballers of today are a different breed, they stink at straight pool(me too)! Call us spin freaks, but its a different style game. 9 ball itself increased overall spin, and bridge length too(IMHO).

Fran Crimi
01-12-2012, 10:36 AM
Playing conditions were tougher in the older days, too. The balls were usually 30 years old and multiple sizes and weights. Mixed sets were common. The cloths were slow and thick, and when it became damp out, you'd better find the center of the cue ball or you were toast.

I think if you gave yesterday's players today's conditions, they'd spin the ball more, too.

Cornerman
01-22-2012, 11:21 AM
Your father is very wrong.

Pro are pros because the CAN hit and make balls with any amount of english.

Eric.
01-23-2012, 03:31 PM
Damn, Fred. What brings you to this forum??


Eric &gt;surprised

Cornerman
01-23-2012, 04:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn, Fred. What brings you to this forum??


Eric &gt;surprised </div></div>I was going to post something about the Louis Roberts Award, but I got quickly distracted and then forgot what I was doing.

Qtec
01-23-2012, 07:24 PM
Too right! check out the shot at the 7 min mark! (http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-1789371924005542099) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

I've watched it a 100 times and I still don't get it.

Good to see you around.

Q

Soflasnapper
01-27-2012, 12:04 PM
I've heard that for these trick shot exhibition filsm, SS makes sure the balls are siliconed for each shot, and maybe the cloth is as well.

So what you're seeing in that shot is spin staying on that ball a long time into the shot, and then having a final masse effect in that last curving action.

I'd guess without the prepped balls, and of course the might masse stroke action SS gets, that may be impossible to achieve, so it's an action you'll rarely if ever witness.

cushioncrawler
01-27-2012, 02:48 PM
Green ice?????
mac.

Rich R.
01-27-2012, 02:54 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've heard that for these trick shot exhibition filsm, SS makes sure the balls are siliconed for each shot, and maybe the cloth is as well.

So what you're seeing in that shot is spin staying on that ball a long time into the shot, and then having a final masse effect in that last curving action.

I'd guess without the prepped balls, and of course the might masse stroke action SS gets, that may be impossible to achieve, so it's an action you'll rarely if ever witness. </div></div>
Phil, I've seen one of these trick shot competitions first hand and I saw no evidence of anyone prepping the balls with silicon. It could have been on a towel used to wipe the balls but, again, I never saw anyone put silicon on the towel.

Although trick shot players rely on a tremendous amount of spin for some shots, you have to remember that they also rely on the ball to cloth friction catching at a predetermined point to complete the shot. IMHO, the silicon would make it impossible to control.

Qtec
02-04-2012, 07:58 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've heard that for these trick shot exhibition filsm, SS makes sure the balls are siliconed for each shot, and maybe the cloth is as well.

So what you're seeing in that shot is spin staying on that ball a long time into the shot, and then having a final masse effect in that last curving action.

I'd guess without the prepped balls, and of course the might masse stroke action SS gets, that may be impossible to achieve, so it's an action you'll rarely if ever witness. </div></div>

I agree with Rich on this. It all real. Maybe this will change your mind. SS in a normal billiard hall..not the best quality (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwx0kmjTQ60)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what you're seeing in that shot is spin staying on that ball <u>a long time into the shot</u>, and then having a final masse effect in that last curving action. </div></div>

I agree but when I saw that shot, on Carom.TV a long time ago, I was only playing snooker. To see the ball reverse direction was such a surprise. I still think its amazing.

To pull that shot off once takes skill, to do it on command shows class.

Q

Qtec
02-04-2012, 08:00 AM
It can be done. not bad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfm4QjD19VQ)

Check out the outrageous shot at the 6 min mark. Amazing.

The guy was 2nd in the Dutch Championship Artistic Billiards

Q

Billiard Dude
02-08-2012, 02:46 PM
Pro players are much more specific on the leave points. And very rarely are they not manipulating it with spin. I would say they use english (or side if you are english) On 95% of all shots not counting the stop shot. Keeping in mind bottom and top are also english. even with natural shape they will run it to the nearest rail and put a little something on it.

Soflasnapper
02-09-2012, 04:12 PM
Looking around a bit, I found Eric Yow, artistic 3-C player, showing Ms. Diepp his silicone spray can in his case (he mentioned it was kind of a secret), and Dr. Dave mentioning that sometimes silicone is used on cue balls for artistic trick shot competitions.

Also found COMMENTARY on some of SS's YouTube videos from persons CLAIMING he also uses that treatment.

None of which is definitive, except to say that apparently some use it, and therefore it must be controllable as to when the 'bite' from the English takes hold, close enough to predictable for its use.

cushioncrawler
02-19-2012, 07:28 PM
A slippery ball and/or bed would make it eezyer to get a bigger out-distance (az we all know).
But i think that more slip would allso make it eeezyer to judge and kontrol the trajekt, ie the shape and apex and speed and everything else.
mac.

Glenrivera
02-26-2012, 10:49 PM
Can you suggest the type of slippery ball ?

And how would the slip will help easy judging ?

cushioncrawler
02-27-2012, 03:42 AM
I dont play pool i play english billiards with 2-1/16" balls. But re slippery balls, i think that all krappamiths are about the same. The vitreous-to-bed coefficient of friktion iz probly about 0.24 -- praps 0.20 if very new bed -- praps 0.10 if silicone on bed or ball -- praps less than 0.10 of on both (dunno).

But i allways say that the diffikulty with masse shots iz not in getting the ball to kum back, the diffikulty iz in getting the ball to go out, with kontrol that iz.

A slippery ball/kloth makes the "out" eezyer -- thusly it makes the "out" eezyer to judge.
If u havta bash the ball to get it to go out, then kontrol must suffer.

Type of ball. How about a ball with a big chip missing. If u kan kontakt the chip u will get a worlds record masse.
mac.

cushioncrawler
02-27-2012, 03:53 AM
Aktually i woz testing cushionkloth friktion (ie ball to cush-kloth friktion) last week.
I kood repeat the tests uzing silicone, or praps soap of some sort. What shood i uze. I kood soon tell u what the friktion iz.
mac.

cushioncrawler
02-27-2012, 04:10 AM
RAMP.
Testing COF for nappy bedkloths and nappy cushionkloths iz funny.
I uze a ramp made of the material. I slide a ball-ball down the ramp -- and i change the grade of the ramp untill the ball-ball slides at konstant speed -- then i measure the grade. Eezypeezy.

BALL-BALL.
The ball-ball iz a ball glued to another ball. That way there iz zero rolling, 100% sliding.

FAUX-FRIKTION.
Nappy kloths are funny. If u start the ball-ball sliding slowly it speeds up. If u start the ball-ball sliding fast it slows down.
Koz the friktion iznt friktion at all -- it iz faux-friktion.
The stringy-nap creates a sort of sliding that iz more like crowd-surfing than slipping.
I guess that pool bedkloths hav real friktion.

ROLLING REZISTANCE.
Skoolkids shood beware. Rolling rezistance = say 0.01, and akts on a ball even when it iz sliding or slipping or skidding. Hencely dedukt about 0.01 from apparant COF to get the true COF.

SPEED.
COF iz less when ball-to-bed slippage speed iz more. I think that at hi-speed the COF might allmost halve. Dunno for sure.
mac.

Bambu
02-27-2012, 08:13 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glenrivera</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can you suggest the type of slippery ball ?

And how would the slip will help easy judging ?</div></div>

Theres no such thing as a "slippery" ball, though quality does matter. The balls are easier to manipulate when theyre clean as opposed to dirty. When sprayed with silicone as trick shot guys do, ball/ball and ball/cloth resistance is reduced further. You can get a similar effect with armor all auto polish.

bradb
03-04-2012, 11:11 AM
It depends how good you are....If your playing nice shape the less spin you will need to get to the next shot.

-Brad

DiabloViejo
03-05-2012, 02:03 AM
I got here late to the game so please forgive me if any of what I am about to say has already been covered.

1.) Whenever you can use center ball and rely on the resulting tangent line to get the cueball to where you need it...use only center ball.

2.) Whenever you need to exaggerate the rebound angle of the cueball off a rail, or, you need to alter the angle of travel of the object ball after contact on a shot on the object ball...then, and only then, use english. (And then only in moderation until you understand the effects of varying amounts of english.)

3.) English is sidespin--left or right, top (follow) and bottom (draw) are not english but they can be combined with english to further alter the rebound angle.

4.) How much english is imparted to a ball (be it the cueball or the object ball) is affected by the speed of the shot.

5.) English has no effect on the tangent line (only follow and draw can alter that).

Hope this helps.

bradb
03-05-2012, 12:39 PM
Diablo, most of us are hip to the technical side of pool. The question that was asked shows that the questioner doesn't understand the game completely.

An experienced player knows that you must keep the Qball under control and that means not moving it around anymore than you have to and staying in the center of the Qball. Thats why the top pros make the game look so easy by lining up natural shape position play. They take away any margin for error.

Wish I could remember to do that more often. -Brad

enjoydgame
03-06-2012, 01:34 AM
Slippery ball game is really interesting.If you have good coordination this game is for you, pass the slippery ball on the various tracks without it falling but take care that it turns around quickly and slips.