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View Full Version : INCONVENIENT TRUTH OF THE DAY 1/26/12



LWW
01-26-2012, 09:52 AM
It needs posted again in light of the left getting their collectivist shorts in a knot over Romney and his money and his taxes:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But while the multi-millionaire Kennedy stood firmly in favor of raising taxes on high earners across the United States, he showed a pronounced reluctance to pay taxes on his own wealth. For many years, Merchandise Mart, the Chicago-based real estate conglomerate that Joseph Kennedy established in 1935, was the most valuable asset belonging to Ted Kennedy and his family. In 1974 Joseph Kennedy divided Merchandise Martís ownership among numerous family members, including Ted, in the form of a trust that was domiciled in the Pacific island of Fiji. Because the trust was based in Fiji, it was not subject to the taxes normally imposed on trusts domiciled in the United States.

As of 2005, the tax rate on U.S.-based trusts was 49 percent on everything above the first $2 million. But as of 2005, the Kennedys, who had transferred at least $300 million in trust funds from one generation to another, had paid a mere $132,000 in estate taxes -- a rate of four one-hundredths of one percent.[5] Had they set up those trusts in the United states, they would have owed more than 7,000 times that amount in taxes.

Ted Kennedy also received additional money -- free of inheritance taxes -- from a series of trusts that were established for him in 1926, 1936, 1978, 1987, and 1997.

Kennedy became skilled at avoiding not only inheritance taxes but also property taxes. For example, in 1980 theChicago Tribune conducted an investigation which found that although Merchandise Mart had a market value of $35 million, it had been assessed at only $22.8 million by tax assessor (and Ted Kennedy political ally) Thomas Tully. The low assessment permitted Kennedy and his extended family to decrease their property taxes by some $4 million over the course of two years. Another Kennedy-owned building, Apparel Mart, received similar, preferential consideration from the tax assessor, saving Kennedy and his clan another several million dollars in property taxes.[6]

In yet another maneuver to avoid paying taxes, Senator Kennedy invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in tax-free Massachusetts bonds.[7]

An additional area where Kennedyís rhetoric is inconsistent with his actions was in the realm of affirmative action. Publicly, Kennedy championed the virtues of race- and gender-preferences (in favor of nonwhite minorities and women) in business and academia. Largely because of his unwavering support of affirmative action programs, the NAACP gave Kennedy a perfect 100 percent rating.

But in his private business dealings, Kennedy preferred not to be bound by the dictates of affirmative action regulations. In 1981, for instance, the senator and his family formed two limited partnerships under whose auspices they purchased an entire city block of prime piece of real estate near the Capitol Building in Washington, DC. Their intent was to build, on that land, an upscale office complex that could generate a fortune in rental income.

The DC Redevelopment Land Agency had previously enacted a set-aside requirement mandating that minority-owned businesses be guaranteed of participating, to some extent, in any new development project like the one planned by the Kennedys. At the senator's request, Kennedy political ally and DC mayor Marion Berry -- an African American who strongly supported affirmative action -- waived the set-aside clause. </div></div>

JUMPING BUTTERBALLS! (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=804)

Soflasnapper
01-26-2012, 11:55 AM
That cinches my decision, and thanks for the detailed information.

Definitely, on this new info, I would not support Joseph P. Kennedy for POTUS, given all the shenanigans he pulled. Besides how long ago he died, also.

If Edward Kennedy were still alive, I would tend to not hold his FATHER'S skullduggery, if it was that, against him. Which was the position of the people of Massachusetts, when Mitt ran against Kennedy for US Senator and raised all these issues. The people shrugged, and rightfully so in my view.

Had the trust and off-shoring arrangements in Romney's current case been done by George Romney, Mitt's father, I wouldn't hold it against him, either.

However, whereas much of the Edward Kennedy arrangements were done by his father, all of Mitt's finances are his own doing (or Bain Capital's doing, where he was CEO for years). To the degree that he did things himself, he is also not running for POTUS, and I do not support him for that office. That was the judgment of the Democratic primaries in '80 when he challenged incumbent POTUS Carter for the nomination-- he lost.

So, in the end, you prove both too much, and too little.

The 'too much' is that you are now admitting this kind of tax-dodging machinations, however legal in appearance, are horrible things in your view, and a considerable black mark against people engaging in them (at least politically). The 'too little' is how you don't get Romney off the hook at all by calling the similar behavior of the Kennedy family scion a problem.

eg8r
01-26-2012, 01:15 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However, whereas much of the Edward Kennedy arrangements were done by his father, all of Mitt's finances are his own doing (or Bain Capital's doing, where he was CEO for years). </div></div>You don't notice that you are giving Ted a pass for continuing his father's footsteps in order to lower his own taxes? He had many opportunities to switch his money around and move it to the states but he never did it. You can blame this all on his father but understand his father was just teaching his son so that the tax savings could continue for many generations.

I would prefer to choose other people as examples as this world is much better off without Ted Kennedy and we should let that dog lie dead.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
01-26-2012, 02:03 PM
It's unlikely in my view that Ted Kennedy ever had control of those trusts. That's the way they work: the beneficiaries get the benefits of the trust, partially because they don't have control of the underlying investments, which are under professional institutional management, if not a blind trustee arrangement.

But again, please, if this matters to you, do not vote for Edward Kennedy for president. Or for US Senator, for that matter. I'm with you on that score. LOL!

eg8r
01-26-2012, 03:15 PM
Doesn't matter to me. I am just stating that you are giving him a pass for doing the same thing you criticize Romney for doing.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
01-26-2012, 11:48 PM
I don't see the same behavior, at least with regard to the foreign domiciled trusts. He got his beneficial interest from his father's putting the trust together to hold that property, and his father placed the trust where he did. A beneficiary cannot undo that, and likely, even a trustee cannot undo that, once done. It would violate his or her fiduciary duties, and be actionable.

Qtec
01-27-2012, 12:47 AM
You are forgetting or ignoring one HUGE difference [ two really ] between Kennedy and Romney. It was right there in the first sentence.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kennedy stood <span style='font-size: 14pt'>firmly in favor of raising taxes on high earners</span> across the United States </div></div>

Romney wants to abolish capital gains and the estate tax, probably leaving him paying almost nothing in taxes.

The second HUGE difference is that only one of them is running for POTUS.

Q

Qtec
01-27-2012, 12:59 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If Edward Kennedy were still alive, I would tend to not hold his FATHER'S skullduggery, if it was that, against him. </div></div>

Good point. This is about Willard, nobody else.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Multimillionaire Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney (R) told employees at a steel fabrication plant on Monday that government employees <span style='font-size: 14pt'>"are making a lot more money than we are."</span>

<span style="color: #3333FF">Wearing his best plaid work shirt and Tommy Bahama blue jeans, </span>the candidate explained to workers at Giese Manufacturing that he would slash the number of federal employees if elected.

"We have to cut back on the scale of the federal government," Romney declared. "And for me that will start by reducing federal employees by 10 percent. You do that through attrition."

<span style='font-size: 11pt'><span style="color: #3333FF">"And then something else that is just as important, and that's to make sure the people who work for government don't get better pay and better benefits than people that work in the private sector."

He added: "The tax payers shouldn't have to have money taken out of their pay checks to pay people in government who are our servants who are<u> making a lot more money than we are.</u>"</span></span>

Romney's desire to appear as a regular American has caused him to make a series of gaffes this year.

In June, he told a group of unemployed people in Florida that he was<span style="color: #3333FF"> "also unemployed."</span>

Returning to Florida in September, the candidate <span style="color: #3333FF">claimed that he was part of the middle class.</span>

The former Massachusetts governor has a net worth estimated at up to $250 million. </div></div>

The workers at the plant were probably all on a higher rate of taxation than Willard.

watch it (http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/david/romney-complains-federal-employees-make-more)

Q

LWW
01-27-2012, 04:39 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Doesn't matter to me. I am just stating that you are giving him a pass for doing the same thing you criticize Romney for doing.

eg8r </div></div>

In the mind of a dembot, wearing the golden (D) places such inner party members above the law.

LWW
01-27-2012, 04:46 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I <s>don't</s> refuse to see the same behavior ...</div></div>

What about the trusts set up after the father died.

Or ... what about Teddy selling the Kennedy compound for $1.00 in 2008 so his heirs could avoid inheritance taxes on it?

SUFFERING SUCCOTASH! (http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/50-Marchant-Ave-Hyannis-MA-02601/55846825_zpid/)

LWW
01-27-2012, 04:47 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If Edward Kennedy were still alive, I would tend to not hold his FATHER'S skullduggery, if it was that, against him.</div></div>

Yet to this day you blame Dubya Bush for completely baseless mythology about his grandfather?

Imagine that.

eg8r
01-27-2012, 07:35 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are forgetting or ignoring one HUGE difference [ two really between Kennedy and Romney. It was right there in the first sentence....Kennedy stood firmly in favor of raising taxes on high earners across the United States
</div></div>No kidding dillhole. The reason is because he was not paying them. He was keeping the bulk of his money offshore to escape any increased taxes he might levy on those not willing to follow his lead and move their money offshore.

I am 100% behind abolishing estate tax. It is highway robbery for a government to decide that since a man has died they must somehow have the right to a percentage of that man's hard work. This is double taxation at its worst. They taxed the man while he was alive, earning all that wealth. Then when he dies they want to run back and steal whatever else they can.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The second HUGE difference is that only one of them is running for POTUS.
</div></div>It is always important to ground you guys and point out your hypocrisy. You had no problem with the man doing this while he was alive but now you somehow have a change of heart since he is dead and there is a person with an (R) behind his name doing the same thing.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
01-27-2012, 12:27 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I <s>don't</s> refuse to see the same behavior ...</div></div>

What about the trusts set up after the father died.

Or ... what about Teddy selling the Kennedy compound for $1.00 in 2008 so his heirs could avoid inheritance taxes on it?

SUFFERING SUCCOTASH! (http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/50-Marchant-Ave-Hyannis-MA-02601/55846825_zpid/)
</div></div>

You cannot sell such a valuable property for $1 and use that price to avoid inheritance taxes.

Either it was a gift, which used up almost all of the then-allowed and still allowed through the end of 2012 $5 million gift exclusion from the estate, or more likely, a nominal sum of this low level was shown for what was a transfer from probably one trust holding name to another trust holding name in the family, which results in no changed later tax status (just deferring when the tax becomes realized).

It is far from clear that EMK was the one who did this, on this evidence. Assuming the property was originally held in a trust before the sale, it's likely there was an independent trustee who did this, not EMK or another family member.

Soflasnapper
01-27-2012, 12:30 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If Edward Kennedy were still alive, I would tend to not hold his FATHER'S skullduggery, if it was that, against him.</div></div>

Yet to this day you blame Dubya Bush for completely baseless mythology about his grandfather?

Imagine that. </div></div>

The seizure of Prescott Bush's bank under the Trading with the Enemy Act is not a myth, but an historical fact.

Really, whether the sins of the father are visited upon the descendants depends upon how far the fruit falls from the tree.

Joe Kennedy's kids proved to be very different from the family fortune founder. The Bushes, not so much.

LWW
01-27-2012, 04:36 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is always important to ground you guys and point out your hypocrisy. You had no problem with the man doing this while he was alive but now you somehow have a change of heart since he is dead and there is a person with an (R) behind his name doing the same thing.

eg8r </div></div>

They moonbat crazy left had no problem with Teddy when he was running for POTUS either.

OTOH, that crook Cheney made millions in stock options and donated it to charity ... and had the @*#&$% audacity to deduct it from his taxes as a charitable deduction.

LWW
01-27-2012, 04:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If Edward Kennedy were still alive, I would tend to not hold his FATHER'S skullduggery, if it was that, against him.</div></div>

Yet to this day you blame Dubya Bush for completely baseless mythology about his grandfather?

Imagine that. </div></div>

The seizure of Prescott Bush's bank under the Trading with the Enemy Act is not a myth, but an historical fact.</div></div>

I was being nice, but since you want to not take advantage of my benevolence ... it actually isn't a myth. It's a lie.

Soflasnapper
01-27-2012, 05:19 PM
Link to the order of seizure (http://www.mbpolitics.com/Bush2000/Vesting.htm)

from the Federal Register.

Since the seizure was performed, and it was done under the Trading with the Enemy Act, what POSSIBLY could be the lie to which you refer?

That is wasn't 'Prescott Bush's' bank?

He was a small minority owner, true, but he served as General Manager for the bank, and in that capacity, made the investment decisions for the bank on behalf of the shareholders' interest, of which he was one. His business decisions were to put the money into Nazi Germany or investments there, and keep them there, trying to hide them, after war broke out.

After the war, he received $1.5 million (in '40s dollars) for his share he'd lost by seizure.

LWW
01-28-2012, 03:40 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Link to the order of seizure (http://www.mbpolitics.com/Bush2000/Vesting.htm)

from the Federal Register.

Since the seizure was performed, and it was done under the Trading with the Enemy Act, what POSSIBLY could be the lie to which you refer?

That is wasn't 'Prescott Bush's' bank?

He was a small minority owner, true, but he served as General Manager for the bank, and in that capacity, made the investment decisions for the bank on behalf of the shareholders' interest, of which he was one. His business decisions were to put the money into Nazi Germany or investments there, and keep them there, trying to hide them, after war broke out.

After the war, he received $1.5 million (in '40s dollars) for his share he'd lost by seizure. </div></div>

How about this.

- He was on the board.

- He didn't own the bank.

- It was owned by Fritz Thyssen.

- Fritz Thyssen was arrested by the NAZI's and held through the end of the war.

- UBC was seized over rumors that they were warehousing NAZI gold.

- The gubmint investigators found this rumor to be false.

- Prescott Bush was in fact a "MINORITY OWNER" in that he helkd one single share of stock ... which was a requirement to sit on the board.

- The Jewish Anti Defamation league has also investigated this and found it to be hyper partisan character assassination.

- Long time and big time demokrook and NAZI collaborator Henry Ford profited immensely from Hitler ... Prescott Bush did not.

- And to bring this full circle back on topic, Joseph Kennedy was a NAZI sympathizer ... Prescott Bush was not ... yet you have never to my knowledge uttered sa peep about this.

Next ridiculous pack of spoon fed lies you would like to present as "TRUTH" to this forum please
OH DEAR! (http://www.adl.org/Internet_Rumors/prescott.htm)

Qtec
01-28-2012, 03:52 AM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zlQH3hY9j-E/Sd4ijbIiesI/AAAAAAAABc0/fmNUL0zBCEM/s400/bush-king.jpg

http://www.competenetwork.com/images/stories/bloggers/ty-04/bush-cheney-king-abdullah%20of%20saudi%20arabia.jpg

http://wemeantwell.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/rumsfeld_saddam.gif

Q

LWW
01-28-2012, 03:55 AM
And?

What is your point?

Men holding hands is part of Arab culture.

Are you a racist or something?

Stretch
01-29-2012, 02:18 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And?

What is your point?

Men holding hands is part of Arab culture.

Are you a racist or something? </div></div>


And?

What is YOUR point?

All you saw were Men holding hands?

Are you Gay or something? St.

LWW
01-29-2012, 04:19 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And?

What is your point?

Men holding hands is part of Arab culture.

Are you a racist or something? </div></div>


And?

What is YOUR point?

All you saw were Men holding hands?

Are you Gay or something? St.


</div></div>

Not in the least ... but you display the typical leftist homophobia.

Insecure about anything?

LWW
01-29-2012, 07:57 AM
In memory of Teddy:
http://www.thepeoplescube.com/images/KG3/BFH_Ted_Kennedy_Aquarium.jpg

LWW
01-29-2012, 07:57 AM
http://www.thepeoplescube.com/images/KG3/BFH_Ted_Kennedy_wreckinabottle.jpg

LWW
01-29-2012, 07:58 AM
A new documentary celebrating the life of Teddy:
http://www.thepeoplescube.com/images/KG3/BFH_teddy_Kennedy_the-backs.gif

LWW
01-29-2012, 08:01 AM
Teddy finally reaches a world where all are judged equally:
http://www.thepeoplescube.com/images/KG3/HC_Kennedys_Judgement.jpg

LWW
01-29-2012, 08:02 AM
A magazine in tribute to leftist scofflaws:
http://www.thepeoplescube.com/images/KG3/BFH_Ted_Kennedy_Left_Mag.jpg

LWW
01-29-2012, 08:03 AM
A soon to be released biography:
http://www.thepeoplescube.com/red/richedit/upload/2k1e5398e089.jpg

LWW
01-29-2012, 08:04 AM
And, of course, his own autobiography:
http://www.thepeoplescube.com/red/richedit/upload/2k90f3566409.jpg