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Soflasnapper
01-26-2012, 10:22 PM
This came up a week or so back: I'd scratched and made the 9 ball. I retrieved the cue ball, but didn't get the 9 up to spot it. My opponent saw that it was ball in hand, but failed to notice the 9 hadn't been spotted up. He set up, shot and made the low ball on the table, correctly, when I noticed he hadn't spotted up the 9. I stopped him, and asked what the rule would be?

What we did was THEN spot it up, and let him shoot from where he'd ended up after what I presumed was a legal shot.

Asking around, I get either confused looks, or in one case, a claim that this constituted loss of game for the shooter if we were using Texas Express rules (we were). I haven't been able to find it addressed anywhere.

What's your call?

Rich R.
01-27-2012, 06:12 AM
My guess is that this exact situation is not addressed in any set of rules. I'm sure that the rules say somewhere that the 9-ball is spotted in this situation and they assume that was done correctly.

In your case, I believe it was a simple mistake when the 9-ball wasn't spotted. By spotting the 9-ball as soon as the omission was noticed, I believe you did the correct thing. JMHO.

JJFSTAR
01-27-2012, 11:09 AM
I don’t think you will find that covered anywhere in any official set of rules, don’t want to sound snooty but in any rule book they are assuming that you are playing the game; if you shoot a shot without the 9ball on the table you’re playing “make the next OB” not 9ball. Rules can’t cover everything it is just not possible, say for example the 9ball was incorrectly placed in the rack; well (if noticed an instant before contact with the rack) what do you do? I say it is up to the players, captains, LO’s or whatever you have on hand.

You made the right choice because that is what you agreed upon. My personal feeling about the person that told you it is a loss of game if you’re playing Tex-x is just trying to sound knowledgeable and really just talking out of their @55.

I would say that any decision is correct as long as it is mutually agreed upon. A re-rack is correct, playing where they lay is correct, restoring the original position is also correct. I think that making up a rule on the spot without documentation such as loss of game, shooting foul, loss of inning or the like is a very bad idea and sets a bad precedent for subsequent games.

Soflasnapper
01-27-2012, 11:58 AM
Thanks, guys, I appreciate your thoughts.

I guess common sense and being reasonable sometimes must be our guide when a rule book is silent. It was a private casual game, not a league situation, so there was a lack of intensity leading to that oversight.

Rich, I know you play straight pool, and balls have to spot up periodically in that game. Is there any language in THOSE rules concerning a comparable situation, where the ball should have been spotted but wasn't and the next shot was taken?

Rich R.
01-27-2012, 02:46 PM
Phil, to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in the rules to cover that situation. As I said above, the rule says to spot the ball and after that, they assume you spotted it as instructed.

JJFSTAR
01-27-2012, 03:01 PM
Actually this happens all the time in 14.1 and it actually usually goes unnoticed, but when it does get noticed you usually just do what I said you just “work it out” between the 2 of you. It happens in one-pocket plenty also and in both games one is not assessed further penalties they just “work it out” usually this is just a score thing but there isn’t such a thing in 9ball or 8ball (at least not within a single rack) and that makes your situation unique. (I actually waited for Rich to answer before posting I know you asked him but I felt ok to comment also).

Sid_Vicious
01-27-2012, 03:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This came up a week or so back: I'd scratched and made the 9 ball. I retrieved the cue ball, but didn't get the 9 up to spot it. My opponent saw that it was ball in hand, but failed to notice the 9 hadn't been spotted up. He set up, shot and made the low ball on the table, correctly, when I noticed he hadn't spotted up the 9. I stopped him, and asked what the rule would be?

What we did was THEN spot it up, and let him shoot from where he'd ended up after what I presumed was a legal shot.

Asking around, I get either confused looks, or in one case, a claim that this constituted loss of game for the shooter if we were using Texas Express rules (we were). I haven't been able to find it addressed anywhere.

What's your call? </div></div>

That was the right call. If he bitched, then he lost. Just like football, all players have to be on the field, and the defense isn't the culprit for not calling the fact, and you were the defense at that point. Once he shot, it's done!, one way or the other. sid

Fran Crimi
01-27-2012, 08:49 PM
I don't know of any specific rule, but my call would be to replay the game. I don't think your opponent's shot with the 9 off the table was a legal shot.

It's difficult to replace the balls to where they were before the player took the shot because they were significantly moved.

Because it was an honest mistake on both ends, I would have called that the game should be replayed.

BTW, it was your responsibility to spot the 9 and it was his responsibility to make sure it was there when he shot, so you were both in the wrong.

Soflasnapper
01-28-2012, 11:16 AM
Thanks for clarifying the responsibilities of both players. That wasn't clear to me, thinking that if the second player also should have looked and made sure the 9 was up, that meant I wasn't also responsible. (That was the main discussion point between us at the time.)

Fran Crimi
01-29-2012, 08:48 AM
If there is no referee at the table, both players are responsible for making sure the rules are followed. Just because his error occurred after yours, it doesn't necessarily cancel out your error.

This should not be compared to games where there is a handicap ball, where if the ball goes in on the break, it has to get spotted. If it doesn't get spotted right away, it stays down and the player loses his handicap ball for that game. That's a made-up rule to accommodate handicaps and has nothing to do with offical rules.

WilliamHenry
01-30-2012, 12:54 AM
Common sense of course plays an important role but you must not forget the confidence.

Qtec
02-04-2012, 08:39 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, it was your responsibility to spot the 9 and it was his responsibility to make sure it was there when he shot, so you were both in the wrong. </div></div>

I agree.
In snooker, its a player's responsibility to ensure that all the colours are on the table. If you play a shot when a ball is in the pocket its a foul, but when you have no referee, its only a foul when its called, just like in pool.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Because it was an honest mistake on both ends, I would have called that the game should be replayed. </div></div>

This can be the only fair solution. After all, you can only win by making the 9 B. If its not even on the table..........how can you win? If the player says nothing and the player on the table gets down to the 7 and thinks 'where is the 9B', you can hardly let him take it out the pocket and spot it!

Q

Billiard Dude
02-08-2012, 02:49 PM
I wouldnt ask him what the rule would be. i would spot the 9 ball for him and let him continue. Being a gentleman far overrides the rulebook if you ask me. I dont want to win by exploiting petty meaningless rules to my advantage. Im not sure if tournament rules specify whos job it is to spot the 9 ball. Its probably the guy who pocketed its job for all I know. Tough ruling officially but we all know the ethical thing to do here.

Billiard Dude
02-08-2012, 02:53 PM
I had a players girlfriend scream while i was breaking last week during tourney. The white ball didnt touch anything just shanked. He went to go check the ruling. I was quite angry about it. He came back and said it was his shot.. which pissed me off so i brought up his screaming girlfriend. At that point he told me just kidding its your shot. So I got all worked up over nothing and was boiling inside from this nonsense.. I went on to lose the set of course. Ackkkkk

Fran Crimi
02-08-2012, 03:31 PM
I'm confused. Why would you have a player's girlfriend scream while you broke?

Soflasnapper
02-19-2012, 10:03 PM
I think he meant it occurred, not that he made that arrangement, although both can be construed from the text! LOL!

Fran Crimi
02-21-2012, 09:23 PM
Pretty funny, right? It looked like he asked this girl to scream. Hahaha.