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Soflasnapper
02-16-2012, 05:25 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The Democratic Party owes a sincere apology to George Bush, Dick Cheney and company for enthusiastically embracing many of the very Terrorism policies which caused them to hurl such vehement invective at the GOP for all those years. And progressives who support the views of the majority as expressed by this poll should never be listened to again the next time they want to pretend to oppose civilian slaughter and civil liberties assaults when perpetrated by the next Republican President (it should be noted that roughly 35% of liberals, a non-trivial amount, say they oppose these Obama policies).</div></div>

Glenn Greenwald, here (http://www.salon.com/2012/02/08/repulsive_progressive_hypocrisy/singleton)

Truth, though it may hurt some feelings.

But further note, this kind of critique (which is not new from Glenn or Noam Chomsky and many others) represents the views of ACTUAL LEFTISTS who have never been party loyalists to either of the two major parties.

That's true, even as there would appear to be some 35% of self-described liberals who do still oppose these actions, even when from a Democratic Party president.

llotter
02-16-2012, 06:30 PM
The Moron is doing badly what he doesn't want to do at all, with disastrous results. He and his team are simply not equipped, by experience or intellect or temperament, to be in the position in which they find themselves, leaders of the free world.

He is also doing badly what he wants to do, create a Utopia here at home. But, expectations are always very low for morons so it is no surprise that this one can't tie his shoes.

eg8r
02-16-2012, 07:56 PM
[qutoe]Truth, though it may hurt some feelings.

But further note, this kind of critique (which is not new from Glenn or Noam Chomsky and many others) represents the views of ACTUAL LEFTISTS who have never been party loyalists to either of the two major parties.
[/quote]Just wondering if all this is true where was the uproar when Obama kept it going for 3 more years? Where was the uproar with Obama sending mercenaries out for murder? If all this stuff you say is true, then why snub your nose at only Bush and company when clearly Obama did nothing to change it and actually went even further off the deep end.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's true, even as there would appear to be some 35% of self-described liberals who do still oppose these actions, even when from a Democratic Party president.
</div></div>Quite astonishing that this "35%" number gets buried in an instance like this but trumpeted everywhere else if it is anti-Republican on any issue. Makes it hard to believe this "35%" you speak of that oppose Obama are a bit weak in their "rage". Why aren't they setting up tents next to the Occupiers?

eg8r

Soflasnapper
02-16-2012, 08:57 PM
Americans generally have few qualms about blowing up people in military actions. We've been inured to it. We are always killing innocents somewhere, with the happy term for it-- collateral damage.

Our film heroes kill at will. (As Arnold told the wife in True Lies, when asked if he'd killed people: Yes, but they were all bad!) When they're not beating people within an inch of their life. We do not care as a people.

Facing this general mindset, who then thought or now remembers that what Clinton did in Kosovo were massive war crimes? Hey, no US airmen casualties, it's all good! (We had no casualties because we bombed from altitudes too high for SAMs to hit the planes, causing highly inaccurate bombing to occur in heavily populated civilian areas.)

Didn't the population cheer the video game looking, fly the cruise missile into the window of the building, sanitized of all gore, first Gulf War? Including even if they happened to hear of the 'turkey shoot' on the Death Road of those fleeing? The criminal use of depleted uranium bothers very few. (That might change if the US people saw the horrific birth defects related to their use. Hell, it's even killing US servicemen, and the American people still couldn't care less.)

It is very hard to stand apart from this dominant sadomasochistic culture, and even if you do in your heart and mind, it is difficult and costly to try to do so in the public square. (Cf: Dixie Chicks)

With the honorable exception of some on the right or conservative or libertarian sides (Dr. Ron Paul, e.g.), the right is no different, EXCEPT occasionally when it's a Democrat doing it, and then they rend their garments and cry crocodile tears. It's a hard choice for them, however, as having this country kill people overseas is exciting for them, even as natural as they find it.

LWW
02-17-2012, 04:51 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Americans generally have few qualms about blowing up people in military actions. We've been inured to it. We are always killing innocents somewhere, with the happy term for it-- collateral damage.

Our film heroes kill at will. (As Arnold told the wife in True Lies, when asked if he'd killed people: Yes, but they were all bad!) When they're not beating people within an inch of their life. We do not care as a people.

Facing this general mindset, who then thought or now remembers that what Clinton did in Kosovo were massive war crimes? Hey, no US airmen casualties, it's all good! (We had no casualties because we bombed from altitudes too high for SAMs to hit the planes, causing highly inaccurate bombing to occur in heavily populated civilian areas.)

Didn't the population cheer the video game looking, fly the cruise missile into the window of the building, sanitized of all gore, first Gulf War? Including even if they happened to hear of the 'turkey shoot' on the Death Road of those fleeing? The criminal use of depleted uranium bothers very few. (That might change if the US people saw the horrific birth defects related to their use. Hell, it's even killing US servicemen, and the American people still couldn't care less.)

It is very hard to stand apart from this dominant sadomasochistic culture, and even if you do in your heart and mind, it is difficult and costly to try to do so in the public square. (Cf: Dixie Chicks)

With the honorable exception of some on the right or conservative or libertarian sides (Dr. Ron Paul, e.g.), the right is no different, EXCEPT occasionally when it's a Democrat doing it, and then they rend their garments and cry crocodile tears. It's a hard choice for them, however, as having this country kill people overseas is exciting for them, even as natural as they find it.
</div></div>

Where do you come up with this garbage?

Qtec
02-17-2012, 07:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where do you come up with this garbage? </div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Americans generally have few qualms about blowing up people in military actions. </div></div>

True or not?

Q

eg8r
02-17-2012, 08:55 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Americans generally have few qualms about blowing up people in military actions. We've been inured to it. We are always killing innocents somewhere, with the happy term for it-- collateral damage.
</div></div>blah blah blah. You are turning into gayle with the rants lately. Basically what has happened is that all of these wargames were horrible when it was Bush yet perfectly OK when it is Obama. Heck you might even cheer on a few illegal mercenary trips if the "right" people are killed.

eg8r

eg8r
02-17-2012, 08:57 AM
Sofla tried to tell us that was false in the beginning with his "35%" number. Then when he puts on gayle's rant dress he parades around "as if Americans generally have few qualms" BS. If Americans generally have few qualms then you need to rethink the 35% number because that is pretty substantial and flies in the face of "Americans generally have few qualms".

eg8r

Soflasnapper
02-17-2012, 10:58 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Americans generally have few qualms about blowing up people in military actions. We've been inured to it. We are always killing innocents somewhere, with the happy term for it-- collateral damage.
</div></div>blah blah blah. You are turning into gayle with the rants lately. Basically what has happened is that all of these wargames were horrible when it was Bush yet perfectly OK when it is Obama. Heck you might even cheer on a few illegal mercenary trips if the "right" people are killed.

eg8r </div></div>

???

That's the opposite of the point of the piece that heads up this thread, with which point I associate myself in agreement. Which I thought should be clear enough. Glenn calls out the 'repulsive progressive hypocrisy' on exactly that double standard, which is unprincipled and vile. I posted the link to make the same point. Please try to keep up! Thank you.

Soflasnapper
02-17-2012, 11:05 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sofla tried to tell us that was false in the beginning with his "35%" number. Then when he puts on gayle's rant dress he parades around "as if Americans generally have few qualms" BS. If Americans generally have few qualms then you need to rethink the 35% number because that is pretty substantial and flies in the face of "Americans generally have few qualms".

eg8r </div></div>

That 35% citation from Glenn (which I haven't see before) is probably correct, as he isn't shy about otherwise criticizing liberals or progressives as, in general, holding a repulsive position on this matter.

However, that is hardly widespread opposition, as it is a smallish minority of the MINORITY of the population who says they are liberals in the first place.

If I recall correctly, self-described 'liberals' make up just 20% of adults. Of THAT SMALL MINORITY to start off with, barely over 1/3rd have objections. 20% x 35% = 7% of the adult population. Yes, that is a small minority of a minority (with almost 2-1 of even liberals having no issue with these actions).

eg8r
02-17-2012, 11:40 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Glenn calls out the 'repulsive progressive hypocrisy' on exactly that double standard, which is unprincipled and vile. I posted the link to make the same point. Please try to keep up! Thank you. </div></div>You then made some dumb remark about 35% people feeling this way but then fumbled the ball at the goal line when you said Americans don't really care. 35% seems to be quite a sizable chunk of "Americans" yet you ignored them in your generalization.

eg8r

eg8r
02-17-2012, 11:42 AM
For the life of my I just cannot find that post you made to gayle when she was praising the President for sending in mercenaries. You know the one where you chastised the act. I am sure it is out there somewhere.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
02-17-2012, 11:57 AM
I opposed the killing of bin Laden (and entering a sovereign country against their will to do that), our involvement in Libya, the Pakistan part of the Afghan war, the Afghan war itself and the 'surge' equivalent, and generally, all continuations of W's policies by the Obama administration as well as the instances where Obama has GONE BEYOND what W even did.

I oppose extraordinary rendition, I oppose secret detention/torture facilities, I oppose enhanced interrogation techniques.

I have said so in passing commentary as appropriate, so what you are scoffing at (I take your remarks to be sarcastic) actually did occur. I never joined in with the triumphalism of some when they loudly applauded such actions with which I strongly disagree.

Although honestly, I don't recall what mercenaries were sent in, but I don't support out-sourcing military actions in that way, either. A recipe for atrocities at best.

Soflasnapper
02-17-2012, 12:01 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Glenn calls out the 'repulsive progressive hypocrisy' on exactly that double standard, which is unprincipled and vile. I posted the link to make the same point. Please try to keep up! Thank you. </div></div>You then made some dumb remark about 35% people feeling this way but then fumbled the ball at the goal line when you said Americans don't really care. 35% seems to be quite a sizable chunk of "Americans" yet you ignored them in your generalization.

eg8r </div></div>

See my post you evidently missed.

'35%' is OF LIBERALS, who are 20% of the adult population, meaning that is really **7%** of the adult population. Which is NOT a sizable chunk of 'Americans,' or even, really 'liberals,' as it's outweighed almost 2-1 the other way among liberals.

LWW
02-17-2012, 05:25 PM
Not.

Next foolish question?

Soflasnapper
02-17-2012, 05:45 PM
Where was the outcry against Operation Just Cause (the illegal invasion of Panama, a sovereign country, causing the death of hundreds of innocent civilians)? Where was the outcry against the invasion of Grenada, where the mental hospital was hit, and I believe all were killed there?

Where were the people of this country found decrying the sanctions regime on Iraq, which then-SecState Allbright admitted had caused the deaths of 650,000 children?

During the Kosovo war, when our munitions hit all manner of civilian infrastructure from power plants, to bridges across the river, to sanitation and water facilities, not to mention indiscriminate death from the air by bombing THE DENSELY POPULATED CAPITAL CITY in an act of terrorism, remember how the people took to the streets in disgust and rage?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

We killed probably 4 million Vietnamese, mainly in South Vietnam. We directly assassinated about 50,000 in the Operation Phoenix terror program. Protests? Only by the young people, before the draft was ended for 2/3rds of them, by instituting a lottery. After that, meh.

This country has directly killed about 8 millions of people since the end of WWII, making it a far larger wielder of death than Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, al Qaeda, and even Israel, combined. We have sponsored and funded and supplied client states who have killed hundreds of thousands more, each (backing Indonesia's genocide against East Timor, and death squad regimes in Central America-- El Salvador, Guatemala, and the Contras in Nicaragua).

And the people yawn, and wonder who will be kicked off the reality shows next week.

cushioncrawler
02-17-2012, 08:06 PM
What about the pope with the funny hat -- howw many haz he and the Holey Roman Kathlix Church sent to Heaven.
mac.