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TomBrooklyn
09-28-2002, 08:26 AM
I just got some Elk Master cue tips. They seem to be one of the most popular tips on the market. They are made from prime portions of chromed tanned leather hides. I don't see anything that looks like chrome on them though, or any kind of metal at all, so I don't know what that means.

They are suppossed to be soft, but they don't feel soft to me. I suppose they are softer than other leather tips, but I don't have any other ones around, so I have nothing to compare them to at the moment.

I got 13mm ones. I think most shafts are 13mm. I'm not sure what mine is, but it looks about standard. I hope this tip fits. If it's exactly the same size I will have to center it perfectly. I hope I will be able to do that without sticking my fingers to the ferrule with cyanoacrylate glue.

=TB=

stickman
09-28-2002, 01:25 PM
I've found it very difficult to center the same size tip exactly on the ferrule consistantly. I use a larger tip and cut them down. I use a porper little shaver and a porper mushroom graser to cut them even with the ferrule. If you have trouble, you might want to check into these tools and order some larger tips.

09-28-2002, 03:19 PM
Tom, Elk Masters has been around forever. They're the cheapest tips on the market which is why you see them on all the house cues from here to timbuck two. Everyone likely has played with one at one time or another, why not? they're what, 15 or 20 cents each? But I like em! When you get a good one they play better than anything else I've tryed. Just leave it allone and it will form to your hit. Snooker players love them too. They even allow them to mushroom. I've seen some pretty ugly snooker tips but that's because these players generaly hold they're cues exactly the same way every shot for consistant feel with the grain, so naturally one side of the tip gets the majority of ware. But that's it, they ware to the player and shape to your style. The fact that they'r dirt cheap is just an unbelievably refreshing coincidence. LOL St.

Troy
09-28-2002, 03:34 PM
Well Tom, Elk Master tips are very soft in comparion, about 60 on a Durometer "D" scale. The biggest complaint is that they mushroon fairly easily. They run very close to Le Pro in popularity. I use Le Pro on house cue repairs because they seem to last longer.

"Chrome tanned" is a tanning process as is "vegetable tanned". I'm not versed enough to explain the differences, but I think it's something about the chemicals used.

When I replace tips I always start with an oversize tip and trim to size after the glue sets. Precise centering can be a problem if the tip is the same size as the ferrule.

Good Luck..... /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> I just got some Elk Master cue tips. They seem to be one of the most popular tips on the market. They are made from prime portions of chromed tanned leather hides. I don't see anything that looks like chrome on them though, or any kind of metal at all, so I don't know what that means.

They are suppossed to be soft, but they don't feel soft to me. I suppose they are softer than other leather tips, but I don't have any other ones around, so I have nothing to compare them to at the moment.

I got 13mm ones. I think most shafts are 13mm. I'm not sure what mine is, but it looks about standard. I hope this tip fits. If it's exactly the same size I will have to center it perfectly. I hope I will be able to do that without sticking my fingers to the ferrule with cyanoacrylate glue.

=TB= <hr></blockquote>

09-28-2002, 03:42 PM
Stickman,

I always wondered about the two Porper tools you mentioned. Aren't you taking a chance cutting into your ivory ferrule with them, or are they pretty safe? I'd get the Willard's but it's a darned expensive investment. By the way, anyone own the Willard's out there. Is it worth the money?

Thanks.

Bob

griffith_d
09-28-2002, 03:48 PM
Chrome tanning is basically the standard for tanning hides to make leather. They use Chromium in a solution to put on the hides.

Elk Masters are cheap, but good for bar cues.

Griff

Troy
09-28-2002, 04:28 PM
Both the Porper and Willard tools have adjustable stops to help avoid cutting into the ferrule. However, with the Porper it is still too easy to damage the ferrule since there is NOT a centering/stabilizing mechanism. With the Willard, the shaft is in a collet keeping the shaft stable while trimming.

As to owning a Willard, I've had the set-up for 3-4 years and it is an extremely valuable tool. I have all the collets, tip holders and trimmers they offer. I have a cue lathe and I still use the Willard.

Troy...~~~ Cue repair guy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: fightingbob:</font><hr> Stickman,

I always wondered about the two Porper tools you mentioned. Aren't you taking a chance cutting into your ivory ferrule with them, or are they pretty safe? I'd get the Willard's but it's a darned expensive investment. By the way, anyone own the Willard's out there. Is it worth the money?

Thanks.

Bob <hr></blockquote>

09-28-2002, 07:25 PM
there's nothing wrong with elk master tips at all, they come in different hardnesses, and happen to be what Rodolfo Luat and Efren Reyes (greatest player ever) use on their cues. so don't sell them short and think they're only good on house cues. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

stickman
09-28-2002, 07:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: fightingbob:</font><hr> Stickman,

I always wondered about the two Porper tools you mentioned. Aren't you taking a chance cutting into your ivory ferrule with them, or are they pretty safe? I'd get the Willard's but it's a darned expensive investment. By the way, anyone own the Willard's out there. Is it worth the money?

Thanks.

Bob <hr></blockquote>

Bob, you must use care with these tools, or you could damage your ferrule, but if reasonable care is taken, they will do a good job. If you can afford the Willard tip machine, I believe it would be a better way to go.

Just a poorboy~~~~~stickman /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

griffith_d
09-28-2002, 07:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: pureza_5:</font><hr> there's nothing wrong with elk master tips at all, they come in different hardnesses, and happen to be what Rodolfo Luat and Efren Reyes (greatest player ever) use on their cues. so don't sell them short and think they're only good on house cues. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif <hr></blockquote>

Something tells me that Efren Reyes may get some tips especially made for him with his specs by Elk Master. Just as other pro players may use Schon or Meucci cues, but they are custom built for them and not "off the shelf" cues.

I cannot see paying $.50 for a tip when you can pay $5-6 more and really get a good tip. Someone goes and spends $300 for a cue and then only gets a $.50 tip,...does not compute.

Griff

TomBrooklyn
09-28-2002, 07:59 PM
For Stickman and Troy: If I'm only be doing my own cues occassionally, and I go slow and easy, can damaging the ferrule be avoided? I haven't seen the Porper Mushroom Graser anywhere so I don't know what that is. I didn't even see it on Joe Porper's website! http://porper.com/accessories.html

TomBrooklyn
09-28-2002, 08:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Stretch:</font><hr> When you get a good one they play better than anything else I've tried.<hr></blockquote> Hey Stretch, how do you know when you've got a good one? I imagine the difference is pretty subtle, that may be a finesse I haven't developed yet. =TB=

09-28-2002, 08:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: pureza_5:</font><hr> there's nothing wrong with elk master tips at all, they come in different hardnesses, and happen to be what Rodolfo Luat and Efren Reyes (greatest player ever) use on their cues. so don't sell them short and think they're only good on house cues. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif <hr></blockquote>


Efren is using a layered tip now. After switching to it he won so many tourneys this year including the Japan Open.

TomBrooklyn
09-28-2002, 08:46 PM
The cue stick I've had for about a year now had a water buffalo tip on it, Troy, so I'd like to try a soft tip and check out the difference.

I 'miked' the tips (I used to do some machine work) and one was a consistant .517" and the other varied from .512" to .517". My ferrule is a consistant .505". Not much play there, but since the two tips cost me a can of Pepsi and I don't feel like spending much time or money trying to hunt down tips, or buying a whole bunch of them when I only need a couple, I'll take a shot with them. Maybe I won't need to shave them at all, as they'll be so close that a little sanding will do the trick. Worst that will happen is I'll have to start over, I guess.

What do you think of those sanding wheel devices that clip on the ferrule? http://www.seyberts.com/billiardaccessories/cue/tipkit.htm Do they stay pretty perpendicular to the shaft or do they have a lot of run out or wobble? =TB

stickman
09-28-2002, 09:09 PM
Tom, if you pay close attention to what you're doing, it works fine. http://www.poolndarts.com/product.cfm?sku=PM60

/ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

stickman
09-28-2002, 09:14 PM
Tom, I use one of the cue top sanders like you mention. I don't use the knob on top of the sanding wheel to turn it, I just grab the wheel, press down lightly and turn it back and forth. I'm pleased with the results. Sometimes, I unclamp, turn the cue a little and reclamp, and sand just a little more.

09-28-2002, 09:22 PM
all i can say is that just this past week i was with Luat in Dave Bollman's shop at q-masters and he was looking for an Elkmaster tip for a new shaft and all he said was "I use the hard ones." he never said anything about a "special" elkmaster tip. i than commented on Efren also using Elkmasters and he said "yeah he uses the same ones". this is what Luat himself told me, i didn't hear it from a friend of a guy who knows somebody that once talked to Efren.....lol.

09-28-2002, 09:26 PM
Thanks, Troy and Stickman. Coming from someone who has a cue lathe and still uses a Willard's, you've convinced me; it's a done deal.

All my good, two-piece cues are 13 mm, but I have some Dufferins in my basement that run anywhere from 12.5 to 13.5 mm. Will I need anything additional to handle them? Also, will I need to know any special techniques for applying laminated tips versus the standard leather ones? I've been told you should cut down the Mooris because they are too thick. Do you do this with a utility knife or use the tool? How do how know you've cut through the tip perfectly and not at an angle, which also goes for stand tips if you want to make them thinner, say for a break/jump cue?

I hope that's not too many questions.

Thanks to you both. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

All the best,
Bob

Cueless Joey
09-28-2002, 11:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: griffith_d:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: pureza_5:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; there's nothing wrong with elk master tips at all, they come in different hardnesses, and happen to be what Rodolfo Luat and Efren Reyes (greatest player ever) use on their cues. so don't sell them short and think they're only good on house cues. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Something tells me that Efren Reyes may get some tips especially made for him with his specs by Elk Master. Just as other pro players may use Schon or Meucci cues, but they are custom built for them and not "off the shelf" cues.

I cannot see paying $.50 for a tip when you can pay $5-6 more and really get a good tip. Someone goes and spends $300 for a cue and then only gets a $.50 tip,...does not compute.

Griff <hr></blockquote>
Griff, Luat and Efren use off the shelf elk master. They just get it vised for a few minutes, then they use em. Efren likes his flat. I've seen Luat get his elk master installed. He said he liked it better after two weeks or so.
Efren has always used ElK Master. He is using Sniper right now on one of his cues and seems happy with it.

Sid_Vicious
09-29-2002, 07:14 AM
F'tnBob...I have a Willard in the mail as does Spiderman, and he also owns a hellova lathe which he uses for his shaft/tip work. SM figures that the Willard will be too versatile for many of the things he chucks up to in his bigger lathe, plus you can go portable easily if you wanted to do some trims at the PH, even do a tip there "on the fly." If SM's investing you can bet it's worth the endeavor in the long run.

All your other questions are things I'll soon be learning myself, but I can safely say that your thinning of tips is done with a sanding process. All thinning will probably like to be done at higher speeds such as a lathe or by drill motor, BUT like I said with patience and practice we both should be doing fine tip jobs in no time with only the Willard and a shaping/sanding tool.

The layered tips will require more care and patience, I've been advised to practice on something you would least hate to damage(ferrule.) My guess is that it's easy once you get the hang of it as long as you take your time.

As to the height issue, I was advised to make the height of the sidewall 2/3 the dimension of the radius of the ferrule. Put some trigonometry theory to that and you should see the reason. I've bypassed that many times in the past and left them tall and lost several tips due to breakdown near the ferrule in time. My future will be the 2/3rds routine now.

Like I said, I'm looking forward to learning all the nifty knowledge of using the Willard on all kinds of jobs. As I understand it the 12-13.5mm collets accommodate dimensions within that range, so don't worry about needing a 12mm shaft to justify that dimension. I was concerned just as you are, so I understand the question.

We'll have more to report in the near future. Have fun in whatever you decide to get...sid

Troy
09-29-2002, 10:04 AM
Hi Bob... The basic Willard will handle shafts from 12-13.5mm provided the taper doesn't grow too quickly.

There is nothing special to do to install laminated tips except to be sure the trimmer blade is fresh (sharp).

To reduce the height, I suggest sanding the back down.

The most damage to laminated tips is done by burnishing with excessive heat. When I install laminated tips, I wait a minimum of 1 hour between burnishing and shaping. My feeling is that this allows the layer adhesive time to "re-set". I can't prove that this helps, it's just how I do it.

I suggest some practice with the Willard prior to working on a shaft you really care about.

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: fightingbob:</font><hr> Thanks, Troy and Stickman. Coming from someone who has a cue lathe and still uses a Willard's, you've convinced me; it's a done deal.

All my good, two-piece cues are 13 mm, but I have some Dufferins in my basement that run anywhere from 12.5 to 13.5 mm. Will I need anything additional to handle them? Also, will I need to know any special techniques for applying laminated tips versus the standard leather ones? I've been told you should cut down the Mooris because they are too thick. Do you do this with a utility knife or use the tool? How do how know you've cut through the tip perfectly and not at an angle, which also goes for stand tips if you want to make them thinner, say for a break/jump cue?

I hope that's not too many questions.

Thanks to you both. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

All the best,
Bob <hr></blockquote>

09-29-2002, 12:49 PM
Thanks, Troy. I appreciate all the tips, no pun intended. I know they'll help.

All the best,
Bob

09-29-2002, 01:06 PM
Sid,

The 2/3 the radius rule is quite helpful and makes a lot of sense. The only problem is sanding down some of those thick tips. Doing it by hand would take a long time, so I guess I'll have to find some way to hold the tip and use my vibrating sander. Sure wish it was a belt sander, though. Maybe I'd be better off using my drill with a sanding attachment. Either way, I doubt this side is going to be attachable to the ferrule. It just won't be flat enough.

As I wrote to Troy, thanks for the tips, no pun intended.

All the best,
Bob

Troy
09-29-2002, 02:02 PM
Bob... I prep tips by sanding with a piece of 60 grit flat on a flat surface. This could still take some time, but the result should be fine if you're careful.

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: fightingbob:</font><hr> Sid,

The 2/3 the radius rule is quite helpful and makes a lot of sense. The only problem is sanding down some of those thick tips. Doing it by hand would take a long time, so I guess I'll have to find some way to hold the tip and use my vibrating sander. Sure wish it was a belt sander, though. Maybe I'd be better off using my drill with a sanding attachment. Either way, I doubt this side is going to be attachable to the ferrule. It just won't be flat enough.

As I wrote to Troy, thanks for the tips, no pun intended.


All the best,
Bob <hr></blockquote>

09-29-2002, 02:06 PM
If you are going to sand down a tip before instaling it, you should sand down the back. Not the top.

09-29-2002, 02:45 PM
Yes, I know that, Anonymous; I've installed Le Pros by hand for years and gently sand the back before gluing. But if you have a thick tip like a Moori, you have to get it down and don't want to spend half your life doing it. If you use a mechanical device other than a lathe, it's going to round, understand. That side could not go next to the ferrule, unless you want a really screwed up job.

09-29-2002, 02:56 PM
Yes, I guess 60 grit would take the tip down quickly, then put the finishing touches to it with 120 or 180 grit. I was so used to using 180 grit for the back, I didn't think of a coarse grit like 60. It does sound like a better deal than using a powertool, other than a lathe.

Thanks, again.

Bob

Troy
09-29-2002, 04:48 PM
Actually Bob, I wouldn't worry about finishing the back of a tip with 120-180. In fact, I use a razor knife to cut a cross-hatch on the back of each tip and I also cut a cross-hatch in the end of the shaft. Right or wrong, I think this helps adhesion.

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: fightingbob:</font><hr> Yes, I guess 60 grit would take the tip down quickly, then put the finishing touches to it with 120 or 180 grit. I was so used to using 180 grit for the back, I didn't think of a coarse grit like 60. It does sound like a better deal than using a powertool, other than a lathe.

Thanks, again.

Bob <hr></blockquote>

griffith_d
09-29-2002, 05:07 PM
so he likes the new Tiger Sniper tips...I have one on my breaking cue.

Griff

09-29-2002, 05:55 PM
Layered tips separate very easy with a razor knife without any cutting. layers should be separated off the top

Troy
09-29-2002, 07:51 PM
Not if they come Domed !!!..... Even un-domed tips can be easily separated on the glue side prior to prep, which just may be preferable to messing with the top side.

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> Layered tips separate very easy with a razor knife without any cutting. layers should be separated off the top <hr></blockquote>

09-29-2002, 07:55 PM
I guess I say that because I do it after the tip is installed.

09-29-2002, 11:28 PM
I'm new to layered tips, so thanks to you both.

Bob