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Qtec
02-26-2012, 03:21 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dutch TV Anchor To Rachel Maddow: The Dutch Are Furious At Santorum Over Euthanasia Claim </div></div>

I don't know about furious, certainly a little miffed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rick Santorum has spent a good part of the week fighting the good fight against euthanasia, Rachel Maddow reported last night, but his statistics on what some other countries do have caused an international incident. <u>It turns out that Santorum has been saying that 10% of all deaths in the Netherlands are involuntary euthanasia, and that “old people in the Netherlands don’t go to the hospital” for fear of being killed.</u> Turns out the Dutch aren’t huge fans of being branded a culture of murder.

The comments that started it all came about at an event earlier in the week, where Santorum argued that, in the Netherlands, “people wear different bracelets when they are elderly, ones that say ‘don’t euthanize me.’” He argued that because “they have voluntary euthanasia in the Netherlands… half of those people are euthanized involuntarily at hospitals because they are older and sick,” and that older people don’t even go to hospitals for fear they will be killed. He claimed 10% of Dutch deaths came about via euthanasia.

Maddow explained that the opposition party in the Netherlands was now calling for their ambassador and Foreign Minister to condemn Santorum, though they have decided to ignore him. This came about as a shock to her because “it is one thing for Americans to look at the 2012 Republican field and say ‘this can’t be real,’ but now we have the rest of the world looking at our candidates and saying ‘Dude, this can’t be real.’”

One of those Dutch people saying “this can’t be real,”<span style='font-size: 14pt'> RTL News anchor Erik Mouthaan, ran through the list of claims Santorum made, in order: “totally not true,” “not true,” “not true and insulting,” “not true and funny,” and “would be cool, but no.”</span> He noted that most of the time, the Dutch don’t object to American criticism from the media because of their national politics. <span style='font-size: 14pt'>“We’re used to being the punching bags of conservatives in the United States because… we have the most liberal politics ever,” he said, joking to Maddow, <span style='font-size: 17pt'>“if your viewers started a country, it would be Holland.”</span> The difference between normal criticism and Santorum’s to Mouthaan was that “it’s just not true.”</span> </div></div>

watch it (http://www.mediaite.com/tv/dutch-tv-anchor-to-rachel-maddow-the-dutch-are-furious-at-santorum-over-euthanasia-claim/)

Conservatives are the laughing stock of Europe.




Q

LWW
02-26-2012, 07:47 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Hague -- <span style='font-size: 11pt'>Euthanasia in The Netherlands is "beyond effective control", according to a report which shows that one in five assisted suicides is without explicit consent.</span>

British opponents of assisted suicide say that the figures are a warning of the dangers of decriminalising euthanasia, as Holland did in 1984. By 1995 cases of euthanasia and assisted suicide in Holland had risen to almost 3 per cent of all deaths.

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>The Dutch survey, reviewed in the Journal of Medical Ethics, looked at the figures for 1995 and found that as well as 3,600 authorized cases there were 900 others in which doctors had acted without explicit consent.</span> A follow-up survey found that the main reason for not consulting patients was that they had dementia or were otherwise not competent.

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>But in 15 percent of cases the doctors avoided any discussion because they thought they were acting in the patient's best interests.</span>

Michael Howitt Wilson, of the Alert campaign against euthanasia, said: <span style='font-size: 14pt'>"A lot of people in Holland are frightened to go into hospital because of this situation."</span>

Dr Henk Jochensen, of the Lindeboom Institute, and Dr John Keown, of Queens' College, Cambridge carried out the study. They conclude: <span style='font-size: 11pt'>"The reality is that a clear majority of cases of euthanasia, both with and without request, go unreported and unchecked. Dutch claims of effective regulation ring hollow."</span>

Another study appearing in the journal shows that the legal assessments of cases reported to the public prosecution service in the Netherlands vary considerably. Cases are reported to determine whether a doctor will be prosecuted for murder. The study was carried out by Dr Jacqueline Cuperus-Bosma, of Vrije University in the Netherlands. The paper concluded that there is a need for clear protocols.

Dr Peggy Norris, chairwoman of the anti-euthanasia group Alert, said: "We need to learn from the Dutch system that euthanasia cannot be controlled."

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>"I know of patients in a nursing home who are carrying around what they call sanctuary certificates all the time, stating that they do not want to be helped to die. People are afraid of being sick or of being knocked down in case a doctor takes the decision, without their permission, to stop treatment."</span>

Source: The Times(UK) 2/16/99</div></div>

Sadly for Snoopy, Madcow et al ... Santorum spoke a set of inconvenient truths. (http://www.euthanasia.com/holland99.html)


Snoop ... this is where you explain that just because Santorum was right doesn't mean that Santorum was right.

LWW
02-26-2012, 07:58 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In 2005, of all deaths in the Netherlands, <span style='font-size: 11pt'>1.7% were the result of euthanasia</span> and 0.1% were the result of physician-assisted suicide. These percentages were significantly lower than those in 2001, when 2.6% of all deaths resulted from euthanasia and 0.2% from assisted suicide. Of all deaths, <span style='font-size: 11pt'>0.4% were the result of the ending of life without an explicit request by the patient.</span> </div></div>

23.5% of euthanasia cases were without the consent of the patient.

That should be a national shame for the Netherlands.

MURDER BY STATE (http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa071143)

LWW
02-26-2012, 08:04 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 11pt'>Euthanasia has also entered the pediatric wards, where eugenic infanticide has become common even though babies cannot ask to be killed. According to a 1997 study published in the British medical journal The Lancet, approximately 8 percent of all Dutch infant deaths result from lethal injections.</span> The babies deemed killable are often disabled and thus are thought not to have a "livable life." The practice has become so common that <span style='font-size: 11pt'>45 percent of neonatologists and 31 percent of pediatricians who responded to Lancet surveys had killed babies.</span>

It gets worse: <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Repeated studies sponsored by the Dutch government have found that doctors kill approximately 1,000 patients each year who have not asked for euthanasia.</span> </div></div>

Being the statist that you are, I'm sure you find this to be a source of pride. (http://www.commonsenseissues.com/continent-death-euthanasia-in-europe/)

Soflasnapper
02-26-2012, 01:01 PM
None of this support the Santorum claims, to wit:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So we will check his statistics — 10 percent of all deaths in the Netherlands are from euthanasia and 50 percent of those die involuntarily — and also his claim that the elderly wear bracelets requesting that they not be euthanized.</div></div>

Fact check here. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/euthanasia-in-the-netherlands-rick-santorums-bogus-statistics/2012/02/21/gIQAJaRbSR_blog.html#pagebreak)

There is no need to even quote this fact check (which earned Santorum the dreaded 4 pinnochio rating), as YOUR OWN FACTS show that he was wrong, even using the wrong statistics you've cited from years ago, and typically prior to the institution of the law in Holland.

LWW
02-26-2012, 02:57 PM
Yes ... it's only actually 23.5% that are murdered by the state.

BRAVO!

Soflasnapper
02-26-2012, 05:04 PM
Sure, 23.5% or .4%, whichever.

Those two numbers are the same, I guess. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Qtec
02-27-2012, 02:50 AM
It says,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At the time of the annual report, the commissions had been able to reach conclusions in 2,667 euthanasia notifications reported to the agency and found only nine in which “the physician had not acted in accordance with the due care criteria,” the annual report said. More than 80 percent of the patients were suffering from cancer; almost 80 percent died at home. </div></div>

..out of a total of <u>136,058 deaths</u>.

Rick was way off and should correct his scaremongering.

Q

LWW
02-27-2012, 05:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sure, 23.5% or .4%, whichever.

Those two numbers are the same, I guess. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

</div></div>

There's dumb ... and then there's plumb dumb ... and there's leftists intentional dumb.

Follow along ... 1.7% of all deaths were by euthanasia. 0.4% of all deaths were by euthanasia without consent. (0.4/1.7) = 23.529411764%.

I was rounding down to give the lame leftust excuses every benefit of a doubt.

Sadly, you lack the mathematical skills to even realize what is being spoon fed to you.

That or you are willfully ignorant.

LWW
02-27-2012, 05:19 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It says,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At the time of the annual report, the commissions had been able to reach conclusions in 2,667 euthanasia notifications reported to the agency and found only nine in which “the physician had not acted in accordance with the due care criteria,” the annual report said. More than 80 percent of the patients were suffering from cancer; almost 80 percent died at home. </div></div>

..out of a total of <u>136,058 deaths</u>.

Rick was way off and should correct his scaremongering.

Q </div></div>

So even by the unlinked and best claim you can <s>make up</s> <s>fabricate</s> <s>hallucinate</s> come up with ... there were 9 people murdered by the state.

Qtec
02-27-2012, 05:29 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">there were 9 people murdered by the state. </div></div>

No. That's not what it says.

<u>How many were murdered under G W Bush in Texas. <span style='font-size: 20pt'>Lets start with the prisons.</u></span>


???????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Dutch public broadcaster Radio 1 described Santorum's remark as <span style='font-size: 26pt'>"fact-free politics,"</span> <span style="color: #000099">ie American politics!</span> and the comments have gotten wide play, leading this evening's broadcast of the country's popular current-event's show De Wereld Draait Door and drawing reports all over the national media.

The Dutch sources estimate that legal euthanasia is the cause of what the Christian paper Nederlands Dagblad put at 3.2% fo deaths at the most liberal estimate, and others put around 2%. Public statistics, which have been reported since the practice was legalized in 2002, cite 3,136 reports of euthanasia out of a total of 136,000 in the Netherlands in 2011, a bit more than 2%.

The Dutch were also flummoxed by Santorum's claim that Dutch elderly wear "Don't Euthanize Me" bracelets.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Other reports label <u>Santorum a "crazy extreme Catholic" with "a surreal view of the Netherlands."</u></span> </div></div>


Ha.

Obviously YOU and Rick know more about the Netherlands than the people who live here!...even though you and Rick have never been here.

Q

LWW
02-27-2012, 05:32 AM
Murder is not trial by jury and then sentence followed.

Please try again.

Qtec
02-27-2012, 05:58 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"fact-free politics," </div></div>

Q

LWW
02-27-2012, 06:53 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"fact-free politics," </div></div>

Q </div></div>

Is that the name of your movement?

It's certainly honest anyway.

llotter
02-27-2012, 08:21 AM
If what Rick said was correct, most everyone in Holland would never admit it and I am not sure who would have the unbiased facts. There there seems to be agreement that involuntary euthanasia does exist and since this is really murder, it is little wonder that the Dutch would just as soon keep it out of the limelight.

No doubt there is also tacit consent and complicity of the Dutch people who don't want to spend much money on the elderly who have become a burden on their lifestyle. When you offload any individual responsibility to the State you also offload the moral responsibility to the anonymity of the State. It should come as no surprise that the 'State' has no conscience.

Soflasnapper
02-27-2012, 12:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sure, 23.5% or .4%, whichever.

Those two numbers are the same, I guess. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

</div></div>

There's dumb ... and then there's plumb dumb ... and there's leftists intentional dumb.

Follow along ... 1.7% of all deaths were by euthanasia. 0.4% of all deaths were by euthanasia without consent. (0.4/1.7) = 23.529411764%.

I was rounding down to give the lame leftust [sic] excuses every benefit of a doubt.

Sadly, you lack the mathematical skills to even realize what is being spoon fed to you.[sic]

That or you are willfully ignorant. [sic]</div></div>

You did the quotient calculation correctly, and I never said you didn't. Your faux complaints about my comprehension are risible and transparently so, to avoid answer the actual complaint I make.

Which is, the claim from Santorum is not supported by what you say. Again, what he said was, 10 percent of all deaths in the Netherlands are from euthanasia and 50 percent of those die involuntarily.

He wasn't close to being right on either number, nor on the claims that the elderly flee the country for care when they need it, or that they wear bracelets.

They have PAPERS known as LIVING WILLS, just as many do in this country as well.

So, your explanation of why Santorum was right involves doing a calculation that proves he was wrong? And then you complain about MY comprehension level? Oh boy!

LWW
02-27-2012, 12:01 PM
Involuntary euthanasia, in some form, is practiced in every country with nationalized medicine.

LWW
02-27-2012, 12:06 PM
If a living will specified euthanasia then it couldn't be said that they did not consent.

So, even if Santorum was off on the numbers ... the point comes down to what level of unauthorized euthanasia, AKA murder by state, is acceptable.

I find 23.5% to be unacceptable. I find 9 a year to be unacceptable.

Apparently, you and the snoop do not.

And here I've heard the left bleat for decades about their compassion and love of justice.

LWW
02-27-2012, 12:08 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You did the quotient calculation correctly, and I never said you didn't. </div></div>

Actually ... you did, but reality never was your strong suit.

LWW
02-27-2012, 12:11 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">nor on the claims that the elderly flee the country for care when they need it, or that they wear bracelets.</div></div>

Or, maybe not:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 14pt'>"I know of patients in a nursing home who are carrying around what they call sanctuary certificates all the time, stating that they do not want to be helped to die. People are afraid of being sick or of being knocked down in case a doctor takes the decision, without their permission, to stop treatment."</span>

Source: The Times(UK) 2/16/99</div></div>

Sadly for Snoopy, Madcow et al ... Santorum spoke a set of inconvenient truths. (http://www.euthanasia.com/holland99.html)[/quote]

Soflasnapper
02-27-2012, 06:08 PM
Sanctuary certificates = living wills.

Note, no 'bracelets' referenced, and the date of the report is not only 13 years ago, but years before the law was passed to better regulate what is and is not allowed.

Qtec
02-28-2012, 02:56 AM
All he can do is deny the facts and keep linking back to a site that is totally not objective.

Pretty sad really.

Q

LWW
02-28-2012, 03:56 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sanctuary certificates = living wills. </div></div>

Verified by?

What's that?

Nothing?

Imagine that.

Soflasnapper
02-28-2012, 10:15 AM
Verified by the Dutch tv anchor, which is what he said when he denied there were any such amnesty bracelets or whatever.

As a 'certificate' is not a bracelet, and there is no credible report of such bracelets being in use now, after the law was passed, whatever weakness in this sole verification there may be is trumped by the zero verification of the bracelet story as to current times.

Considering the certificate is a piece of paper evidently stating the patient's wishes as to decisions of early termination of life-- in these cases, not to do that-- it is functionally a living will equivalent.