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bradb
04-27-2012, 12:33 PM
I was watching Dennis Ocollo in the masters when he was faced with this kick shot on a 1 ball blocked by the 9ball. Using his finger he measured the distance from the rail out to the center of the 1ball, then he measured that same distance down the rail. Then he pocketed the 1ball nicely.

I made this diagram to try and show how he did it.

Measure the distance from the rail to the center of the 1ball (horizontal yellow line) Measure that same distance (vertical yellow line) down the rail. Hold your finger on the end of that line and swing around to your aiming position. Release your finger and memorize that spot. Now Aim directly at the spot which you had marked with your finger!
The white dashed line is the actual path of the cue ball.

Its a great way to find a reference point when executing this tricky little shot.
-Brad
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/brad1943/Railkick.jpg

SpiderMan
04-27-2012, 02:58 PM
Brad,

It won't work, except for a narrow range of cue-ball approach angles. Using the method as drawn, you would be aiming at exactly the same point regardless of how far the cueball is from the rail. Think of the extreme case - if the CB is almost on the rail also, and you aimed at this point, you'd actually hit the wrong side of the object ball and drive it away to the right.

One geometrically-correct method is to take the horizontal line and continue to extend it the same distance once more in the same direction (doubling the distance) to find the aim point. This aim point is then correct for any resting position of the cue ball.

A fine point, however, is that the initial measurement is not from the cueball center to the rail's edge - it's from the cueball center to the point where the cueball center will be when the cueball contacts the rail. This generally corresponds to a "dirt track" which shows up on most tables a little less than a ball's width from the rail's edge.

You also have to correct for compression of the rail, which lengthens the initial line because the CB center penetrates a little bit into the rail. Also you have to correct for cueball follow (makes the CB rebound angle closer to the rail) or draw (opens the CB rebound angle to further from the rail).

But I find it works pretty well when shot softly (to minimize rail compression).

SpiderMan

(<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was watching Dennis Ocollo in the masters when he was faced with this kick shot on a 1 ball blocked by the 9ball. Using his finger he measured the distance from the rail out to the center of the 1ball, then he measured that same distance down the rail. Then he pocketed the 1ball nicely.

I made this diagram to try and show how he did it.

Using the horizontal yellow line as a guide, measure that same distance (vertical yellow line) down the rail.
Now aim directly at the spot where the line ends. The white dashed line is the actual path of the cue ball.

Its a great way to find a reference point when executing this tricky little shot.
-Brad
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/brad1943/Railkick.jpg </div></div>

bradb
04-27-2012, 03:50 PM
Spider, you are right in that it works only when the cue ball is out from the rail at least as far as the 1 ball as shown. But remember the aiming spot is not the actual place the cue ball hits the rail.

Still trying to get my head around your suggestion of doubling the horizontal line for reference. Do you know of any diagrams to explain that? Brad

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bradb
04-27-2012, 07:10 PM
Where are all the pool players posting now??? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cry.gif

Rich R.
04-28-2012, 05:12 AM
I'm sure there are several ways to calculate this shot but the method that I know is very close to Spider's method.
With the method I learned, you start at the actual contact point on the object ball and measure to the rail. Then you double that distance and find a straight line back to the cue ball to find the contact point on the rail.
It's not really difficult with a little practice and it is fairly accurate most of the time.

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04-28-2012, 05:48 AM
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04-28-2012, 05:56 AM
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04-28-2012, 05:57 AM
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04-28-2012, 05:57 AM
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04-28-2012, 05:57 AM
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04-28-2012, 05:57 AM
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04-28-2012, 05:57 AM
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bradb
04-28-2012, 10:14 AM
Thanks Rich. I'll try that

Do you or the other players post on another Forum?

This site is obviously not viable anymore.

-Brad

Rich R.
04-28-2012, 09:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">




Thanks Rich. I'll try that

Do you or the other players post on another Forum?

This site is obviously not viable anymore.

-Brad </div></div>
Brad, if it is action you want in a forum, go to azbilliards.com and their many forum sections. There is more traffic there than anywhere. However, a lot of the traffic is really trash and a lot of the posts are worthless. I go there mainly for news items, their 14.1 forum section and tournament information. I only scan their main forum and I only read and post in a very small number of threads. It is not uncommon to post something on that forum and the next time you look it is on the forth of fifth page. You really have to filter through the trash.
Frankly, I prefer the slower pace of this forum with one or two good threads going at a time.
Of course, if you are a fan of one pocket or a cue collector, there are other forums you may be interested in. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Fran Crimi
04-29-2012, 04:30 PM
....Or if you're a fan of SPAM, this is the place to be.

Sid_Vicious
04-30-2012, 10:28 AM
Just imagine a ghost OB sitting on the rail, in this case, at the edge of the rail felt and the wood and shoot at that ghost ball center. All this science and calculations beyond that simple concept, just muddies minds, KISS. sid

bradb
04-30-2012, 11:39 AM
Sid, if its good enough for Dennis Ocollo its good enough for me. But basically its just another way of making sure of your shot in a tight situation.

Fran, how about the "Stricking Viking" winning the Classic!! We just got the video up here. You must have played her many times.

Brad

Eric.
04-30-2012, 11:46 AM
Personally, I find ghost ball to not be the best method. It's hard to imagine an exact ghost ball accurately, rather than, say, a point/spot.

I think Spidey nailed it with his description of the method. If I were to add anything to it, I might suggest finding the contact point on the OB (that sends it to the pocket), then pull back a tiny more than 1" behind that contact point (to account for the thickness of the CB), then proceed with his measurement.


Eric

Sid_Vicious
04-30-2012, 12:24 PM
When you shoot enough of the ghost ball shots, the third eye sees the spot quickly enough. I used to go to the OB, creep to the OB with the cue tip, slowly drag it back over the rail for equal distance...it was just distracting, and I missed as many as I made. Personally, I feel a bit silly in fingering the distance, laying an imaginary line, yada yada yada, then moving back to the stroke area and shooting. TV players and the heavy hitters I watch playing every day for money analyze right there in the shooting position. Spiderman has always used his method since I've known him, and it is a, extremely high percentage method for him. My mind works better without the distraction of the added physical mechanics moving around the table. Everybody is different. sid

Eric.
04-30-2012, 04:35 PM
Thats just the thing; when you shoot enough of any method, you become proficient at it. I just feel that ghost ball is not the best way. If you think about it, what is easier; shooting the CB at a guesstimate shadow/image of an imagined ball (ghostball) or finding an small, estimated point and shooting at that exact spot?


Eric

Sid_Vicious
04-30-2012, 05:41 PM
Depend on the distraction factor from the cemantics involved. Have you ever seen Efren hand joggle and paint imaginary lines in his approach? Maybe Fran has a viewoint. sid

Fran Crimi
04-30-2012, 07:44 PM
Hey Brad, I was thrilled to see Ewa win! Yes, I've played her several times and I've always enjoyed our matches. I always remember her game having a nice rhythm. She really knows the game and seldom second-guesses herself.

Fran Crimi
04-30-2012, 07:53 PM
I basically double the distance from the contact point to the rail and draw a line to the cb. The trick is in the way in which you perceive the cb hitting that spot on the rail where the line intersects the rail. If you are familliar with the diamond system term 'shooting through the diamond' you'll know what I mean.

In essence, you're aiming at the point off of the cushion that is double the distance as I wrote above. Where the line intersects the rail shouldn't be your aiming point, even though that's the point it appears that the cb will strike the rail (which it really isn't), which is basically what it means to 'shoot through a diamond.'

Sounds a bit esoteric --- I know.

Eric.
05-01-2012, 11:06 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I basically double the distance from the contact point to the rail and draw a line to the cb. The trick is in the way in which you perceive the cb hitting that spot on the rail where the line intersects the rail. If you are familliar with the diamond system term 'shooting through the diamond' you'll know what I mean.

In essence, you're aiming at the point off of the cushion that is double the distance as I wrote above. Where the line intersects the rail shouldn't be your aiming point, even though that's the point it appears that the cb will strike the rail (which it really isn't), which is basically what it means to 'shoot through a diamond.'

Sounds a bit esoteric --- I know. </div></div>

And, this is what Spidey has said also, which coincides with the way I do it. If anything, we all have tiny adjustments to the base method, but the base method is the same.

Sid, I think that using Efren as an example is a bit of a red herring. Though Efren doesn't "hand joggle", to use your expression, how do you know that Efren isn't using the same method that several of us outlined? the other point is that Efren has some much more time in and experience with the game that many techniques become rote. In other words, why take the long way to figure it out "by feel" or experimentation(ghost ball) when you can cut the learning curve and time needed with more definitive methods?


Eric &gt;not worried how uncool it looks

bradb
05-01-2012, 02:59 PM
Ok, In could be wrong but I would like to clarify what i see happening in this shot.

I Measured the distance from the rail to the contact point on the 1ball (Horz. yellow line.) Now I measure that same distance vertically down the rail.
Using the end of that line to establish a vector point on the rail, I Aim directly at that point to kick in the 1ball.

The vector point is of course not the actual rail contact point.

- Brad


http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/brad1943/cue.jpg

Soflasnapper
05-01-2012, 05:37 PM
There are several things to aim at in this situation that don't require much of a measuring.

I've used more than one, even though they all should end up with the same aiming line. Some seem more appropriate than others in given situations, as in, easier to see or measure, based on how far off the rail it is, distance from the OB, etc.

The 'measure up the rail' isn't anything I've used, but I've seen it when Tom Dr. Cueball Rossman shows his multiple-rail kicking systems, to turn a 3-railer into a 4-railer. I never quite got that, but thinking about it now, seems easy and I will revisit it.

For me, the very easiest thing in this situation is to use the gutter line. Eyeball the difference of the base of the object ball (centerline) to the gutter line, and then eyeball the same distance towards but PAST the gutter line (into the rail), aiming center ball on the cue ball.

My first idea on this was from the Professor, Grady Matthews, who says take the edge of the intended object ball (the edge closest to the rail) and eyeball that distance from the rail, to that same distance into the rail. Then aim the (in this case, right) edge of the cue ball to the left of that spot.

All of these methods work, and are basically the same line, or at least I think they are. And all would be the same as taking a mirror image of the ghost ball out into the rail, and aiming at that, IF you could aim at and hit the appropriate part of the mirror image ghostball. That, I find somewhat inaccurate, relative to these other methods. And I understand why people might find that hard to do, in any case. An imaginary mirror image of an imaginary ghost ball? Tricky.

bradb
05-01-2012, 06:14 PM
I guess being an artist i find its easier for me to visualize images like a ghost ball or imagine a spot on the rail.

Thats why I was somewhat surprised to see the Philippines best player use this system. Also I have seen several chinese players do the rail measure thing. I thought i was the only guy doing this.

For me the rail kick has always been a problem because as a snooker player we hardly ever try this shot as its just too difficult on a snooker table. Best to boot it out and try a safety, so I never really learned it.

PS, I just noticed what you said about Grady's taking the line on into the rail and aiming at that. I find that even better. Brad

Sid_Vicious
05-03-2012, 02:04 PM
"An imaginary mirror image of an imaginary ghost ball? Tricky."

No more tricky that rail cushion inconsistencies for exact aim points on the edge of the cushion, derived from a semi-calculus algorythm. A stroke thru the rail to a ghost ball, "feeling" the stroke due to angle, and with less manual scientific dancing, is still what I'd guess the elite cuests use in general, but I could be totally wrong. I do know that people can play their own game, for their ownselves, and put time into "baking a cake" for a particular shot. One of the last highend, organized teams of mayes I played with, in an organized fashion, actually rejected these slow type players, for that very reason.

But I digress...whatever blows your skirt up is fine. I just choose to free wheel a bit more, and go on fundamental GB aiming instinct with stroke speed feel. I do miss, a lot, don't get me wrong. I do believe though that "when I am on at all" I am making most if not all.

I like these shots BTW. sid

heater451
06-20-2012, 09:41 PM
As shown in the pictures, I think using that 90-deg angle layout only works for an OB close to the rail (following the thread title, "...down the rail".

For kicks with an OB farther from the rail, I recommend the 'mirror system'==which is essentially what the others are describing (Spiderman, Fran, etc.). While I think that name is somewhat reserved for banks, I apply it to kick shots as well.

Also, I think Soflasnapper is the only one to mention the "gutter", a.k.a, the "dirt track", where there is a line outside the cushion nose, because that is where the bottom of a ball can reach (mostly). That is, if you put a ball against the cushion, the bottom-most point of the ball should be where the "reflection line" would be, parallel to the cushion/rail.

Lastly, I seem to recall reading that a touch of follow is used. I cannot recall why, verbatim, but I think it had something to do with correcting the post-rebound angle.

Eric.
06-21-2012, 06:31 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heater451</div><div class="ubbcode-body">. </div></div>

Totally off topic (apologies) but hows things, Allen? Long time, no see and for that matter, no see on the CCB. Good to see you posting more.


Eric