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bluewolf
10-01-2002, 01:06 PM
This started under the book thread.

I found my self folding in competition. I think I had fallen into people pleasing. Someone mentioned fear of failure and fear of letting teamates down.

Sometimes my teamates give me the impression i can do 4-5 stuff when i am a two like saying just run them out when that means 4 balls inclluding the eight and they are not all easy shots and i am not good enough yet at position to make them into easy shots or i have the mental capacity to know where to put the cb and even the ball speed,rails to use and sometimes english, but if i try to think about all that, i will miss even the easiest of shots. So if i try to live up to their expectations,i miss the first shot and lose, when i should ve just played safe. So then I disappoint myself and start thinking I am not a good two at all but really a cruddy 2 and i let my team down. I start thinking there is no advantage to me being on their team,then I remember than the no 2 does let their higher no players play but that is the only good i see.

I see myself playing like a three sometimes in practice but can never do that in a match because all this weird mental stuff goes through my head. No matter how good I get in practice, as long as my brain is screwed up, I will always be a two.

ww and I played a match the other day.he is a 7.we were trying to make up what would be fair so he gave me 7 to 2 race and i got 3 extra balls in hand in each game. but even though it ended 5-2, i was so nervous that my hands hurt the next day from too tight a grip and bridge.

on one game he said take that last ball in hand and then just run out.same scenario, only i just had three balls to run this time but the first cut was about 70%.

i know more than almost all twos. i can do some advanced stuff that 2s cant do but i cant do it all the time.and i have taken that lesson with scott and have real good looking fundamentals and am pretty good with safes. because of that,it just seems like nobody treats me like a 2.maybe it is all in my head,but it seems like i am called a 2 and expected to perform like a 3 or weak 4.sometimes i can do those things but not all the time so i am a two cuz i am not consistent yet and there are so many things i need to improve on and need lots of practice.

anyway i think i am letting what everybody else thinks about my game,or what i think they think and sometimes mixed up two about what i think. sometimes i wish other people and myself could just let me be a two for awhile and people did not make fun of me like a two is horrible or something. i am tired of the pressure inside and outside myself.it takes away all the fun and makes pool just a frustrating job.

sorry this is so long.just needed to vent.

bw

Cueless Joey
10-01-2002, 01:40 PM
BW, I feel your pain. I was a C player then C+ then B for a loooooong time. Too long that I almost quit. I don't know how I would rate on APA ranking but I don't play barbox pool. I finally got up to A- status in our local hall. Not very good but getting there status. But, I am very happy to have improved the last few weeks.
Getting too many advice is bad for your game. Pressure also stiffens your stroke and your head.
Keep your game simple as Scotty would like it to be. Break down the speed in 3 shots. Have a great series of practice strokes, pause, pause, pause (did I say pause) pull and shoot. Feel the tip as Scotty would say. That Scotty, he's a nag, ain't he?

10-01-2002, 02:30 PM
WOW! That's a lot of pressure to put on yourself. For what it's worth, here's my view of what a good s/l 2 should be/do.

1. Be able to take ball in hand and make a ball regularly.

2. Be able to hit a spot on a rail that the coach is pointing to. (Useful for kicking at balls or thin cuts. My wife made a 3 rail kick shot last week because she can hit the spot I point to)

3. Have some system with the coach that allows you to understand the speed necessary for a particular shot. (useful for safeties)

4. Have some basic knowledge of the direction the CB will travel after making contact with the OB.

5. Understand what causes the CB to follow the OB into the pocket on straight-in shots and how to keep it from happening.

6. An advanced s/l 2 might have some idea of the next shot and where they'd like the CB to end up to make the next shot easier.

Playing pool at that level should be relatively stress free. It is a time for learning. When your team mates tell you to "run em" they either see a pattern you can't see or they are just having fun. They can't possibly expect you to run out. When they say that, take a moment to look at the table layout. See if you can visualize a way to make 2 or 3 balls, getting natural shape from one shot to the next. When you can successfully visualize and execute a 2 or 3 ball run, you're getting into s/l 3 territory.

bluewolf
10-01-2002, 03:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Cueless Joey:</font><hr> BW, I feel your pain. I was a C player then C+ then B for a loooooong time. Too long that I almost quit. I don't know how I would rate on APA ranking but I don't play barbox pool. I finally got up to A- status in our local hall. Not very good but getting there status. But, I am very happy to have improved the last few weeks.
Getting too many advice is bad for your game. Pressure also stiffens your stroke and your head.
Keep your game simple as Scotty would like it to be. Break down the speed in 3 shots. Have a great series of practice strokes, pause, pause, pause (did I say pause) pull and shoot. Feel the tip as Scotty would say. That Scotty, he's a nag, ain't he? <hr></blockquote>

yeah that scott is a nag but a nice one.he reminded me in his last email that this is a game.

it is hard too being married to a 7.he was shocked when i told him this vent post i sent to the ccb.but he is one who tells me to do this weird stuff like i can do a 70 degree cut shot or run three balls just like that. lordy a 70 degree cut shot is in my 5-10 % range and i call those luck.

anyway scott helped me on my stroke . in fact he helped me so much i guess ii look better than i am. &lt;G&gt;

btw in our apa we play on 9 foot tables.i like the 9 foots.

bw

bluewolf
10-01-2002, 03:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: DragonSlayer:</font><hr> WOW! That's a lot of pressure to put on yourself. For what it's worth, here's my view of what a good s/l 2 should be/do.

1. Be able to take ball in hand and make a ball regularly.

2. Be able to hit a spot on a rail that the coach is pointing to. (Useful for kicking at balls or thin cuts. My wife made a 3 rail kick shot last week because she can hit the spot I point to)

3. Have some system with the coach that allows you to understand the speed necessary for a particular shot. (useful for safeties)

4. Have some basic knowledge of the direction the CB will travel after making contact with the OB.

5. Understand what causes the CB to follow the OB into the pocket on straight-in shots and how to keep it from happening.

6. An advanced s/l 2 might have some idea of the next shot and where they'd like the CB to end up to make the next shot easier.

Playing pool at that level should be relatively stress free. It is a time for learning. When your team mates tell you to "run em" they either see a pattern you can't see or they are just having fun. They can't possibly expect you to run out. When they say that, take a moment to look at the table layout. See if you can visualize a way to make 2 or 3 balls, getting natural shape from one shot to the next. When you can successfully visualize and execute a 2 or 3 ball run, you're getting into s/l 3 territory. <hr></blockquote>

thanks. i dont think i should be under pressure either.if i was a regular person maybe i wouldnt be but i am married to an apa seven and i feel like i am constantly under a magnifying glass at home too when i am practicing. and i get told 20 more times what i did not do perfect than i hear good shot...it was a little better this afternoon after i told him i sent this vent...in duh duh land

bw

SpiderMan
10-01-2002, 04:10 PM
B/W,

You don't sound like a 2. You speak with familiarity of things our 2 can't fathom. Faced with a 5-foot straight-in, our 2 is more likely to give up ball in hand than to make her shot. If given ball-in-hand, I give her an 85% chance of not fouling and maybe a 50% chance of making one ball.

In another thread, you mention drawing the cue back to sink the nine. Our two has never backed a ball up in her life, and would probably roar with laughter if it happened.

In order to remain a 2, you must be consistently losing to 3s, and I have a hard time imagining that.

BTW, how did the Whitewolf/Fran grudge match come out?

SpiderMan

bluewolf
10-01-2002, 04:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SpiderMan:</font><hr> B/W,

You don't sound like a 2. You speak with familiarity of things our 2 can't fathom. Faced with a 5-foot straight-in, our 2 is more likely to give up ball in hand than to make her shot. If given ball-in-hand, I give her an 85% chance of not fouling and maybe a 50% chance of making one ball.

In another thread, you mention drawing the cue back to sink the nine. Our two has never backed a ball up in her life, and would probably roar with laughter if it happened.

In order to remain a 2, you must be consistently losing to 3s, and I have a hard time imagining that.

BTW, how did the Whitewolf/Fran grudge match come out?

SpiderMan <hr></blockquote>

LOL draw shot is one of the five drills in scotts lesson.scott didnt quite get that far with me but he taught ww how to do it. i wasnt doing it very well on my own.ww told me how to fold the middle finger under on the closed bridge and now i can draw some.some days pretty good and some days not as good but i just keep practicing the drill.i also, you may remember have that hand shake,eye focusing problem. so i play better when my hand isnt shaking.scott has another drill which is a straight in ball in hand drill. i cannot line up the balls straight. if someone lines them up for me i can shoot them in most of the time,unless i am having one of my spas attacks like i have in competition, but i absolutely cannot line it up to make a perfectly straight line from the cc thru the ob to the pocket.

you are funny spiderman, i played a two last week that was a fair shot. she did not know about position and all that but on that particular night shot better than me. she won,then i won, then i let my cue hit too low on the eight and left the eight hanging. she won.she was a good two i think.

i dont think ALL of the 3s are better but they do play better in competition so yes they beat me always.so yeah i understand a lot but until i dont fold under pressure, i will be a two.i just need to get back to the 'pool is a game,games are fun' attitude that i lost somewhere along the way.

fran vs ww.how silly. i dont have any grudge against her but she probably still doesnt like me. dont know about him and her.the whole challenge thing sounded pretty dumb to me.

bw

bluewolf
10-01-2002, 04:46 PM
oh ww just corrected me. i thought i could line up the balls straight when i play leftie(amanda and i were looking at this). the other day tried to line up leftie and could not do that either,so guess my left eye is a little better,not much.i can shoot leftie but shoot a little better rightie. so i guess i am REAL confused!!!

bw

Wally_in_Cincy
10-02-2002, 06:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SpiderMan:</font><hr>
Faced with a 5-foot straight-in, our 2 is more likely to give up ball in hand than to make her shot. If given ball-in-hand, I give her an 85% chance of not fouling and maybe a 50% chance of making one ball.
<hr></blockquote>

Dang. And I thought OUR 2 was bad /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SpiderMan:</font><hr>
In another thread, you mention drawing the cue back to sink the nine. <hr></blockquote>
That was Karatemom.
-------------------------
Bluewolf,

A decent 2 should be able to make 2 or 3 balls without scratching. Anything above that is gravy.

Fred Agnir
10-02-2002, 06:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> A decent 2 should be able to make 2 or 3 balls without scratching. Anything above that is gravy. <hr></blockquote>
I'm happy when an SL-2 can get away from the table without giving up ball-in-hand. I think an SL-2 should be able to make a straight in shot 2ft/2ft 90% of the time. Anything else is a 50/50 guess or less.

There's really no such thing as a decent SL-2, is there? The way the APA handicapping goes, if you have a winning record (making you decent?) you get moved to an SL-3.

Fred

Karatemom
10-02-2002, 07:00 AM
Thanks for the plug, Wally /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif. A month ago, I was handicapped at a 3, took 3rd place, then 1st and became a 4. Then I took 4th place twice, and now I'm a 5. That one shot made me a 5. Not so sure I'm ready to be a 5, I think luck had a lot to do with it. But all the same, I will take all the lost matches in my future and use them to my advantage - to learn!

BW, a handicap is just a number and nothing more. It doesn't mean that I am better than you or vise versa. Once you get over the mental game you are having trouble with, IMO, your handicap will go up. I can feel that my mental and physical games have gone up. I can't explain why my mental game has, but have been practicing a good 10 - 12 hours every weekend now for about a month and think that has something to do with my physical game improving. Sounds to me like you, and maybe others, are putting too much pressure on yourself. Just take what happens with a grain of salt.

JMHO,

Heide ~ now I'm late for work /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

billy bob
10-02-2002, 01:32 PM
mam seems to me your jest into numbers. if you win do the folks call you a three r jest a 2 1/2? if ya play like me you can be called anythin it don't bother me none. thats all for now mrs 2. lest us know when your better then i will call you mrs 3. your friend billy bob

bluewolf
10-02-2002, 04:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: billy bob:</font><hr> mam seems to me your jest into numbers. if you win do the folks call you a three r jest a 2 1/2? if ya play like me you can be called anythin it don't bother me none. thats all for now mrs 2. lest us know when your better then i will call you mrs 3. your friend billy bob <hr></blockquote>

thanks to everyone and all your support. i feel better and hopefully will go to league with more confidence and forget that silly sl??

bw

10-02-2002, 07:12 PM
Laura,

So your husband is a perfectionist, a real obsessive/compulsive, huh? Well, I sympathize with you because I'm the same way, and I've been known to make people around me miserable because of it. But if we're pains in the tuchus to others, can you imagine what it's like for us. We're really hard on ourselves. Perfectionists often end up winners, but you have to wonder if they really enjoy it. I remember what a commentator said about Jimmy Connors, a competitor if ever there was one: "the man hates losing more than he loves winning." That's just the way they are, but that doesn't mean that's your personality. Know who you are first.

I have to say I don't like most psychology books written on pool - I'm going to write a negative review of "Pleasures of Small Motions" on Amazon in a day or so - but they have little to do with genuine psychology, in my opinion. On the other hand, a book like "Please Understand Me," a work on character and temperament types based on Jungian archetypes, is far more direct, understandable, and thus valuable for determining what you do best and why. It's not about pool, but maybe it will help you enjoy pool more.

Besides, remember that pool is like any game or sport in that it can be enjoyed at any level. I could play chess for several lifetimes - and wish I could, I love it so - and never become a grandmaster. Still, I've improved over the years and play a decent game. And like chess, you can only improve in pool if you play people better than you are. So, hang in there and don't give up.

All the best,
Bob

10-02-2002, 07:55 PM
Laura,

I'm not presuming to know your problem, but how far above the cue is your head and how is it oriented? I ask this because it made a difference in my aiming.

I realize that women, with the obvious exception of Vivian Villarreal (love that stroke), have their chin nearly touching if not touching the cue. Frankly, I don't see how they can aim like that, but I guess thousands of snooker players can't be wrong.

What I'm saying here is that maybe you should experiment with different head positions and heights to see if that helps your aim. Of course, maybe you've already done that.

All I can tell you is that if I am too low or I have my dominant eye - yes, dominant right eye - over the cue, I have no idea where the cueball is aimed. Over the years my head took up a position similar to Willie's in "Winning Pocket Billiards," with the left eye over the cue. Strange thing is, I wasn't even trying to emulate Willie this time, but maybe he was there in spirit. More likely, I started to make the shots consistently and that's where my head ended up. There was nothing conscious about it.

Maybe you can shortcut the learning process by consciously trying various positions. Just a thought.

All the best,
Bob

bluewolf
10-03-2002, 06:49 AM
thanks bob. i do play low but sometimes higher depending on how close the cb is to the rail. i have a traditional stance, bridge and as closely as i can emulate scotts stroke and followthrough.

backswing pause---tends to give my hands a chance to shake and for my brain to sabotage the shot. a big pause at cb per scott works. a very minute pause at backswing does keep me from rushing the shot...head almost never comes up but if cue isnt nearly touching cloth after stroke, i either did not follow completely or lifted my eyes....

other than practice and getting a lesson from time to time and hopefully randy g pool school soon, the keys to pocketing balls for me seem to be...

relaxation
confidence
focus
perfect stroke
perfect followthrough

correct eye movements
look at cb last on draw
look at both on short shots
focus on ob on long strokes...

what have figured out so far....

bw

phil in sofla
10-03-2002, 10:25 PM
George Fels wrote a little while back of his new experience playing in league.

As long as he has been playing in other settings, the league playing finds him playing maybe 50% of his speed, and feeling nervous and kind of obligated to always win, from the expectations of his teammates.

I don't play APA, but I've played league for maybe 6 years, and I've only recently been able to bring as much as 75% of my game to league play, and sometimes it's still more like 50%.

There is little doubt that the social pressures in league are in the back of the mind for many, and hurt performance. Probably the best answer is to be aware of that, learn your game and limitations, stay within your game and limitations in that setting, and then do nothing when down on the shot but give it your best pre-shot routine, strongly visualize the result you want and give it your best stroke, and let the results be what they are.

If you know you are shooting within your comfort range, tell yourself you are the favorite to make the shot you've chosen, suspend disbelief and doubt to at least a neutral expectation, and then stroke it pure and straight. You won't always make your shot, perhaps, but you will have given yourself the best odds to make it (and you'll look great even if you miss it!).

Wednesday, our opponent team had a local hotshot semi-pro A player, and he lost all 3 of his games, dogging shots probably everyone on either team would be favored to make, shots I would have bet my life he'd have made. Some days, pool is like that for anyone. Keep it in perspective, have fun with it, and you'll do fine.

Good luck, and good shooting.