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DiabloViejo
05-11-2012, 10:37 PM
The 12 Best Reasons Why The U.S. Is Not Now, And Never Should Be, A Christian Nation
May 11, 2012
By Deborah Montesano
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/05/11/the-12-best-reasons/

http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/america-christian-300x199.jpg

Christians today have the same problem as their fellow believers of two hundred years ago: “One of the embarrassing problems for the early nineteenth-century champions of the Christian faith was that not one of the first six Presidents of the United States was an orthodox Christian.” –The Encyclopedia Britannica, 1968.

The ‘Christian’ label did not even fit some of our early Presidents. However, whether religious or not, the great intellects of democracy had a vision of all that the United States could be. They wouldn’t have dreamed of imposing religion on their fellow Americans; they knew that this nation’s greatness came from not being a Christian one. In their own emphatic words:

1) “Enforced uniformity confounds civil and religious liberty and denies the principles of Christianity and civility. No man shall be required to worship or maintain a worship against his will.” Roger Williams, Puritan minister and founder of Rhode Island, in The Bloudy Tenet of Persecution, 1644.

2) “As the government of the United States of America is not on any sense founded on the Christian Religion, – as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen (Muslims), – and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.” –Treaty of Tripoli

–initiated under President George Washington, 1796

–signed into law by President John Adams, 1797

–ratified unanimously by the Senate, 1797

–Published in full in all 13 states, with <span style="color: #FF0000">no record</span> of complaint or dissent.

3) “But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.”–John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

4) “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship… I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.” –Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT

5) “I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises.”–Thomas Jefferson, letter to Samuel Miller, 1808 [note that this does not say Christian religion; it refers to all religions, equally]

6) “History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose.” –Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

7) “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” –James Madison, letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774

8) “Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?” –James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795

9) “What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people… A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.” –James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, 1785 
.

10) “During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” –James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance

11) “He had no faith, in the Christian sense of the term– he had faith in laws, principles, causes and effects.” –Supreme Court Justice David Davis, on Abraham Lincoln

12) “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” –First Amendment, Constitution of the United States

LWW
05-12-2012, 04:16 AM
It's a crying shame that you insist upon having your opinion spoon fed upon you by your handlers, rather tan inquiring until you know the truth.

The USA was certainly founded on Christian principles, to deny that only expense one as a fool on historical issues.

What you are confused over is that being a member of ny particular sect of Christianity, or any other faith, was not a requirement of citizenship or office ... something you seem to find objectionable.

DiabloViejo
05-12-2012, 08:21 AM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/576851_10150795850040885_550735884_9613368_1008502 725_n.jpg

DiabloViejo
05-12-2012, 09:11 AM
Christian Dominionist "Freedom", "constructing a Bible based social political, and religious order WHICH FINALLY DENIES THE RELIGIOUS LIBERTY OF THE 'ENEMIES OF GOD'" /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/534818_10150795942580885_550735884_9613569_7031939 57_n.jpg

Gayle in MD
05-12-2012, 10:05 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DiabloViejo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 12 Best Reasons Why The U.S. Is Not Now, And Never Should Be, A Christian Nation
May 11, 2012
By Deborah Montesano
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/05/11/the-12-best-reasons/

http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/america-christian-300x199.jpg

Christians today have the same problem as their fellow believers of two hundred years ago: “One of the embarrassing problems for the early nineteenth-century champions of the Christian faith was that not one of the first six Presidents of the United States was an orthodox Christian.” –The Encyclopedia Britannica, 1968.

The ‘Christian’ label did not even fit some of our early Presidents. However, whether religious or not, the great intellects of democracy had a vision of all that the United States could be. They wouldn’t have dreamed of imposing religion on their fellow Americans; they knew that this nation’s greatness came from not being a Christian one. In their own emphatic words:

1) “Enforced uniformity confounds civil and religious liberty and denies the principles of Christianity and civility. No man shall be required to worship or maintain a worship against his will.” Roger Williams, Puritan minister and founder of Rhode Island, in The Bloudy Tenet of Persecution, 1644.

2) “As the government of the United States of America is not on any sense founded on the Christian Religion, – as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen (Muslims), – and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.” –Treaty of Tripoli

–initiated under President George Washington, 1796

–signed into law by President John Adams, 1797

–ratified unanimously by the Senate, 1797

–Published in full in all 13 states, with <span style="color: #FF0000">no record</span> of complaint or dissent.

3) “But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.”–John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

4) “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship… I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.” –Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT

5) “I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises.”–Thomas Jefferson, letter to Samuel Miller, 1808 [note that this does not say Christian religion; it refers to all religions, equally]

6) “History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose.” –Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

7) “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” –James Madison, letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774

8) “Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?” –James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795

9) “What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people… A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.” –James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, 1785 
.

10) “During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” –James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance

11) “He had no faith, in the Christian sense of the term– he had faith in laws, principles, causes and effects.” –Supreme Court Justice David Davis, on Abraham Lincoln

12) “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” –First Amendment, Constitution of the United States

</div></div>


<span style="color: #CC0000">It is a travesty of justice that during the Nixon Administration, Republicans decided to exploit religious fanaticism, albiet against the principles which were so clearly intended by our Founders.

The growing religious intrusion, bent on destroying the principles of our Constitution, and its always predicted destruction of Human rights, and equality, under the laws and against our constitution, is precisely what our Founders were so determined to avoid.

Religious organizations should be taxed. They are no longer simply churches... they have formed themselves into a political group, which has divided the country, and sought to remove civil rights and equal rights, as always.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style='font-size: 14pt'>‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.” –Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT

</span> </div></div>

The founders were very clear on this subject, and on many occasions, through both spoken words, and written words.
G.

</span>

LWW
05-12-2012, 01:33 PM
And this has what exactly o do with the founding principles of this country?

Soflasnapper
05-12-2012, 01:59 PM
When Ben Franklin suggested those gathered in what became the Constitutional Convention say a prayer for God's guidance in that task, those delegates assembled for that purpose voted down his suggestion.

Why was that? Because even given that almost all those there were Protestants, they were of differing Protestant sects, and they could not abide each others' doctrinal differences to have a non-denominational prayer, nor allow, say, a Unitarian or a Presbyterian to make that prayer in the style their sect preferred.

Accordingly, as you will note, God is nowhere mentioned in the preamble to the Constitution, or in the Constitution itself, the highest law of the land, and the organizing and foundational document founding this Constitutional republic. The sole mention in the foundational documents, in the Declaration of Independence, refers to 'Nature's God,' which is far from endorsing the Judao-Christian concept of God.

Other than that, of course...

DiabloViejo
05-13-2012, 01:56 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/550866_375559869146365_265719336797086_943379_2135 976654_n.jpg

LWW
05-13-2012, 02:11 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DiabloViejo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/550866_375559869146365_265719336797086_943379_2135 976654_n.jpg </div></div>

You love spoon fed and out of context quotes.

Why s that?

DiabloViejo
05-13-2012, 02:16 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DiabloViejo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/550866_375559869146365_265719336797086_943379_2135 976654_n.jpg </div></div>

You love spoon fed and out of context quotes.

Why s that? </div></div>

What a silly question! Because it makes you squirm, blow a gasket, and lose control of your bowels..that's why, you silly doofus! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

BTW, (not that you'll bother to read them):

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html

http://www.afn.org/~govern/Christian_Nation.html

http://hnn.us/node/141761

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-geldard/america-founded-as-a-chri_b_1304314.html

http://www.salon.com/2009/04/14/christian_nation/

LWW
05-13-2012, 02:17 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When Ben Franklin suggested those gathered in what became the Constitutional Convention say a prayer for God's guidance in that task, those delegates assembled for that purpose voted down his suggestion.

</div></div>Thanks for making my point for me ... again.

LWW
05-13-2012, 02:18 PM
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”

James Madison
Father of the COTUS

LWW
05-13-2012, 02:19 PM
"Christianity is part of our common law."
SCOTUS 1844

LWW
05-13-2012, 02:20 PM
"No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national because this is a religious people. This is historically true."
SCOTUS 1892

LWW
05-13-2012, 02:21 PM
"We are a Christian people, according to our motto."

SCOTUS 1930

LWW
05-13-2012, 02:22 PM
"We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being."

SCOTUS 1952

LWW
05-13-2012, 02:26 PM
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature."

John Adams
(taken from a letter to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813)

LWW
05-13-2012, 02:29 PM
"I now make it my earnest prayer the God would have you and the State over which you preside, in His holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the field; and, finally, that he would be most graciously pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind, which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation."*

President and General George Washington
June 8, 1783 in a letter to the governors of the states on disbanding the army.*

LWW
05-13-2012, 02:32 PM
With the truths of all human history at your fingertips, you amazingly prefer to be lied to. (http://www.aproundtable.org/tps30info/beliefs.html)

Class dismissed. (http://www.aproundtable.org/issues.cfm?issuecode=history)

Before your next lesson, please be prepared.

DiabloViejo
05-13-2012, 04:13 PM
It's so much fun to watch the monkey throw his feces against the wall hoping that some of it sticks!

All your BS was destroyed in the links I provided. I'll let the reader decide on his or her own. No one needs your approval.

The real lesson is that you are not the forum's ideological enforcer and the only people who pay attention to you here are Sev, lloter, eg8r and your multiple personalities.

You're not changing anyone's mind. You are not accomplishing anything of any great import. You are irrelevant and serve only to amuse us. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/2/0/1/0/6/6/1/Man-and-Horse-that-Built-Civilization-72168070329.jpeg

http://spydersden.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/convertanncoulter.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9wjLj_hrBCo/Tr1Ib4Tr4rI/AAAAAAAAA80/2IfTOg3FJY0/s1600/American+Facism.JPG

Soflasnapper
05-13-2012, 06:36 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> With the truths of all human history at your fingertips, you amazingly prefer to be lied to. (http://www.aproundtable.org/tps30info/beliefs.html)

Class dismissed. (http://www.aproundtable.org/issues.cfm?issuecode=history)

Before your next lesson, please be prepared. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[Thomas Paine's] principal contributions were the powerful, widely read pamphlet Common Sense (1776), the all-time best-selling American book that advocated colonial America's independence from the Kingdom of Great Britain, and The American Crisis (1776–83), a pro-revolutionary pamphlet series. <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Common Sense was so influential that John Adams said, "Without the pen of the author of Common Sense, the sword of Washington would have been raised in vain.”[4] </span></div></div>

Paine, the intellectual engine of the Revolution, was clearly no Christian, although he did have a kind of religion involving the concept of God, called deism.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#CWiYuVJJAqR5kkLf.99
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be true.
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#CWiYuVJJAqR5kkLf.99
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Every religion is good that teaches man to be good; and I know of none that instructs him to be bad.
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#CWiYuVJJAqR5kkLf.99
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#CWiYuVJJAqR5kkLf.99
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it not a species of blasphemy to call the New Testament revealed religion, when we see in it such contradictions and absurdities.
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine_2.html#sQ5OiytZUmYTYSUB.99
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is not a God, just and good, but a devil, under the name of God, that the Bible describes.
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine_2.html#sQ5OiytZUmYTYSUB.99
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst.
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine_2.html#sQ5OiytZUmYTYSUB.99
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That God cannot lie, is no advantage to your argument, because it is no proof that priests can not, or that the Bible does not.
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine_2.html#sQ5OiytZUmYTYSUB.99
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum.
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine_3.html#p1GPMmw4tCZk8tqd.99
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are matters in the Bible, said to be done by the express commandment of God, that are shocking to humanity and to every idea we have of moral justice.
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine_3.html#p1GPMmw4tCZk8tqd.99
</div></div>

Most of the mere commentary you quote from non-binding SCOTUS dicta refers only to religion, not Christianity.

People could and did understand the importance of a religious outlook on life for civil society, whether or not it was the same as the Christianity followed at the time.

In fact, as Paine shows, the religious principles of the populace could be found in non-traditional, non-Christian religions as well.

Naturally, the other founders couched their language and arguments in the religion of the day, but the foundation of this country was really from the Enlightenment, and the writings of people like John Locke. The Enlightenment opposed the dogmatism and fixed principles of the religion of the day, in favor of the fruits of rationality, science, and reason.

George Washington never participated in the rite of Communion, and was not the down-the-line Christian his quotes make it seem he was.

DiabloViejo
05-13-2012, 11:19 PM
LMAO! LWW you just got b-slapped AGAIN!

All your base are belong to us! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

http://www.pqinternet.com/images/GoogleSlap.jpg

http://static.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/f6105336323559bb2a2c1ae92fa208805b.png

eg8r
05-14-2012, 07:41 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 12 Best Reasons Why The U.S. Is Not Now, And Never Should Be, A Christian Nation
</div></div>The day this becomes true will be the beginning of the end for this country.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
05-14-2012, 12:30 PM
The nation was born in sin (genocide of the natives, and persecution of those of other faiths unto death), prospered in sin (slavery), and has been going downhill in sin (becoming an imperialist empire building country as of the first war fought on false information and pretexts, the Mexican-American War (from which Lincoln as a Congressman strongly dissented)).

A little late to call anything the beginning of the end for this country. The Spanish-American War marked our graduation to the big stage, of seizing-- by aggressive war based on lies-- countries or colonies overseas. That was at the end of the 19th century.

The country has been in more or less continual war the entirety of the 20th, and now the 21st, century. That habit, hard to shake when so much money is made on such actions, has created by far the majority of the indebtedness of the country that is so decried, but no one will state its cause, and thus avoids stating its solution.

The average American buys our national mythology, that we always do these wars out of altruism, our big hearts, and the desire to foster the spread of democracy. This is bought by the masses, even when we engage in war and covert actions to subvert democracy. This remains true, even as the last big war-- Iraq-- clearly had no lawful predicate or course of actions consistent with the longstanding 'just war' concept, upon which international laws of war are based.

Qtec
05-14-2012, 06:22 PM
Hello McFly, the USA isn't a Christian nation. The non-Christians these days are the real Christians!

Tell me, where is the love from the RRW?

Love thy neighbour?


a good Christian? (http://www.mediaite.com/online/terrifyingly-hilarious-nebraska-woman-gives-the-most-amazingly-bonkers-anti-gay-rant-ever/)

Where does she get all this stuff from?

Watch it.

Q

cushioncrawler
05-14-2012, 06:35 PM
Remember the err, the err, the, the, oh yes, the USS Maine.
mac.