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View Full Version : Israel Fitting Subs With Nukes.



Sev
06-04-2012, 04:09 PM
Shalom.

Peace through superior firepower.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/israel-fitting-nuclear-arms-subs-005955787.html
<span style='font-size: 23pt'>Israel fitting nuclear arms on German-supplied subs: report</span>

Israel is arming submarines supplied and largely financed by Germany with nuclear-tipped cruise missiles, influential German news weekly Der Spiegel reports in its issue to be published on Monday.

The magazine said in a cover story that Berlin had until now denied any knowledge that German submarines were being used as part of an Israeli atomic arsenal.

But former high-ranking officials of the German defence ministry told Der Spiegel that the government always assumed Israel was putting nuclear warheads on the Dolphin-class vessels.

The article, based on a months-long probe, cited files from the foreign ministry in Berlin indicating the West German state was aware of the practice as early as 1961.

In Israel, foreign ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said only: "I can confirm that we have German submarines. It's no secret.

"As for the rest, I am not in a position to talk about their capacity," he told AFP.

Israel is the Middle East's sole if undeclared nuclear-armed power.

Germany has already supplied Israel with three of the submarines in question, footing most of the bill, and another three are to be delivered by 2017 under a recently signed contract.

Meanwhile Israel is weighing whether to order three more, according to the report.

"The Germans can be proud to have ensured the existence of the state of Israel for several years to come," Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak was quoted by Der Spiegel as saying.

The opposition Social Democrat Party called Sunday on Chancellor Angela Merkel's government for an explanation.

"The federal government must provide information so that we know if the submarines delivered by Germany can be potentially equipped with nuclear warheads," party spokesman Rolf Muetzenich told Der Spiegel.

Merkel's spokesman Steffen Seibert said all submarines had been delivered unarmed.

"The federal government will not speculate on subsequent arming," he said.

The report said Germany hoped to see Israeli concessions on settlements on Palestinian land and approval for the completion of a sewage treatment plant in the Gaza Strip in exchange for the assistance.

Israel sees its existence under threat if its arch-foe Iran goes nuclear. Like the United States, it has refused to rule out bombing Iranian nuclear sites.

Germany, bearing the historical guilt of the Holocaust, is Israel's closest ally in Europe.

But it has sharply criticised Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's pro-settlement policies in the West Bank and annexed east Jerusalem as undermining peace efforts with the Palestinians.

Tensions between Germany and Israel flared in April when Nobel prize-winning German author Gunter Grass published an inflammatory poem warning that a nuclear-armed Israel "could wipe out the Iranian people (with a) first strike."

Soflasnapper
06-04-2012, 06:41 PM
"The Germans can be proud to have <span style='font-size: 14pt'>ensured the existence of the state of Israel for several years to come</span>," Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak was quoted by Der Spiegel as saying.

SEVERAL years??? That's a weird statement there. Several, as in a couple, or a few? Odd.

The magazine said in a cover story that Berlin had until now denied any knowledge that German submarines were being used as part of an Israeli atomic arsenal.

But former high-ranking officials of the German defence ministry told Der Spiegel that the government always assumed Israel was putting nuclear warheads on the Dolphin-class vessels.

The article, based on a months-long probe, cited files from the foreign ministry in Berlin indicating <span style='font-size: 14pt'>the West German state was aware of the practice as early as 1961.</span>


Also a very weird claim. I think that MUST be a misprint, for nobody says the Israelis even HAD nukes until Dimona. To my knowledge, I mean. Golda Meier threatened the use of nukes in the '73 Yom Kippur War, gaining Nixon's rapid rush to aid Israel, as well as raising the DefCon level to 2, to signal that the Soviets ought not to proceed with their massive airlift and intervention to save the surrounded Egyptian 7th army.

However, if those aware of the practice as of 1961 were correct, this is now what-- 52 years old 'news.'

Sev
06-04-2012, 07:21 PM
If they have had them since 61 I would suspect they have a lot of toys that the general public is not aware of.

Gayle in MD
06-04-2012, 07:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If they have had them since 61 I would suspect they have a lot of toys that the general public is not aware of. </div></div>

So even though this story is old, what do you think others should think about this? Why give it a thhujbs up?

A number of former Secretaries of State, and former foreign Intelligence experts, have stated that the RW in Israel is every bit as much a terrorist organization, as any of the Muslim or Arab terrorist groups.

Are we supposed to be thrilled to know that yet another bomb happy, unstable country is gearing up to threaten world peace, including OURS?


Strange, don't you think, that Repiglicans, Russians and the Chinese are always the ones who are spreading bombs, guns and nukes around the world?

G.

Sev
06-04-2012, 08:30 PM
I remember a book from the 70's claiming the Catholic Church was the largest weapons dealer on the planet.

Stretch
06-05-2012, 01:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I remember a book from the 70's claiming the Catholic Church was the largest weapons dealer on the planet. </div></div>

Don't mess with the Catholic Church, they have Weapons of Ass Destruction. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif St.

Qtec
06-05-2012, 01:22 AM
LOL. That's wicked. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Q

Soflasnapper
06-05-2012, 10:21 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If they have had them since 61 I would suspect they have a lot of toys that the general public is not aware of. </div></div>

All of our top-line, front-line equipment, for starters. What we didn't freely give them, they stole, with one of the best industrial espionage efforts out there.

Then it's back-engineered and sold to the world market, including the Chinese and through them, the N. Koreans and Iran. A bad situation for our guys if or when we have to face our own weaponry.

I checked on Dimona, and it started about '58, but is said to have gone operational in '62-'64. As one of the highest secrets of that state, it may be that no one is really sure.

Gayle in MD
06-05-2012, 10:22 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I remember a book from the 70's claiming the Catholic Church was the largest weapons dealer on the planet. </div></div>


From the seventies, huh?

What does that have to do with my question?

Additionally, if they are so well armed, and so great in business, I'd like to know why we are sending them millions of dollars every damned year?

G.

Soflasnapper
06-05-2012, 03:40 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I remember a book from the 70's claiming the Catholic Church was the largest weapons dealer on the planet. </div></div>

Not to worry-- we here have now taken the first spot.

Sev
06-05-2012, 04:42 PM
Thats a possibility.
All countries engage in espionage. Even on allies.

However if they were stealing and selling all our secrets our "enemies" would have been far better armed long ago than they are today.

China is doing fine on its own espionage wise. Hell we give half our stuff away on the internet these days.

LWW
06-06-2012, 04:48 AM
There would be some irony if Israel did away ith Islamic genocidal fanatics with arms sold to them by Germany.

Gayle in MD
06-06-2012, 08:23 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I remember a book from the 70's claiming the Catholic Church was the largest weapons dealer on the planet. </div></div>


From the seventies, huh?

What does that have to do with my question?

Additionally, if they are so well armed, and so great in business, I'd like to know why we are sending them millions of dollars every damned year?

G. </div></div>

Bump.

Soflasnapper
06-06-2012, 09:18 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There would be some irony if Israel did away ith Islamic genocidal fanatics with arms sold to them by Germany. </div></div>

Genocidal irony. Do you favor the annihilation by blast effect and later radioactive effects of the Iranian people? And what will be the effect on other non-combatants in the area? How many scores of millions, or hundreds of millions of people, dead are you ok with in this scenario?

Soflasnapper
06-06-2012, 09:26 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I remember a book from the 70's claiming the Catholic Church was the largest weapons dealer on the planet. </div></div>


From the seventies, huh?

What does that have to do with my question?

Additionally, if they are so well armed, and so great in business, I'd like to know why we are sending them millions of dollars every damned year?

G. </div></div>

Bump. </div></div>

That would be BILLIONS a year, btw.

They aren't that good at business, and they have way overspent on their military, which usually dooms countries (cf: the USSR, and the US).

Gayle in MD
06-06-2012, 09:39 AM
Thanks for the correction. I should have known it was more like billions than millions.

Agree with your other undeniable statement, as well.

G.

Soflasnapper
06-06-2012, 10:51 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thats a possibility.
All countries engage in espionage. Even on allies.

However if they were stealing and selling all our secrets our "enemies" would have been far better armed long ago than they are today.

China is doing fine on its own espionage wise. Hell we give half our stuff away on the internet these days. </div></div>

It's more than a possibility, as it has even been publicly acknowledged in public hearings in the US Senate (rarely, but on multiple occasions).

As for how the enemies are armed, we won't know until the rubber hits the road.

However, consider the drone captured by the Iranians. It didn't crash land, but was brought in under their control of its rudder and aerilons and throttle. Controlled by them, evidently using a backdoor in the software, or overcoming the encryption techniques.

That potential, and the likely failure rate of millions of components manufactured and supplied by the Chinese contained in all of our military hi-tech may well presage the failure of our vital systems in crunch time. That is hasn't happened yet is simple strategic thinking on our enemies' part. Holding back the trump card until it is time to play it for keeps.