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Sev
06-12-2012, 03:28 PM
Sadly the net value is probably close to where is should be in reality.
However in the next five months if there is little move in the economy that aids in recouping the loss it will work against Obama.
He set the bar high and is falling short.

http://tucsoncitizen.com/arizona-news/20...h-in-recession/ (http://tucsoncitizen.com/arizona-news/2012/06/11/fed-reports-u-s-families-lost-39-of-worth-in-recession/)

<span style='font-size: 23pt'>Fed reports U.S. families lost 39% of worth in recession</span>

WASHINGTON – The recent recession wiped out nearly two decades of Americans’ wealth, according to government data released Monday, with middle-class families bearing the brunt of the decline.

The Federal Reserve said the median net worth of families plunged 39 percent in just three years, from $126,400 in 2007 to $77,300 in 2010. That puts Americans roughly on a par with where they were back in 1992.

The data represent one of the most detailed looks to date of how the economic downturn altered the landscape of family finance. Over a span of three years, Americans watched progress that took almost a generation to accumulate evaporate. The promise of retirement built on the inevitable rise of the stock market proved illusory for most. Homeownership, once heralded as a pathway to wealth, became an albatross.

Those findings underscore both the depth of the wounds of the financial crisis and how far many families remain from healing. If the recession set Americans back 20 years, economists say, the road forward is sure to be a long one. And, so far, the country has seen only a halting recovery.

“It’s hard to overstate how serious the collapse in the economy was,” said Mark Zandi, chief economist for Moody’s Analytics. “We were in free fall.”

The recession caused the greatest upheaval among the middle class.

Only roughly half of middle-class Americans remained on the same economic rung during the downturn, the Fed found. Their median net worth — the value of assets such as homes, cars and stocks minus any debt — suffered the biggest drops. The wealthiest families, by contrast, actually saw their median net worth rise slightly.

Americans have tried to rebalance the family budget but have found it difficult to reverse the damage.

The survey indicated that fewer families are carrying credit-card balances and that those who do have less debt. The median balance dropped 16 percent, from $3,100 in 2007 to $2,600 in 2010. The Fed also found that the percentage of Americans who don’t have any debt at all rose to a quarter of families.

But that progress was undermined by other factors, leaving the median level of family debt unchanged. The report said more families reported taking out education loans. Nearly 11 percent said they were at least 60 days late paying a bill, up from 7 percent in 2007. And the percentage of families saddled with debts greater than 40 percent of their income stayed the same.

Not only were Americans still facing significant debts, they were making less money. Median income fell nearly 8 percent, to $45,800, in 2010. The median value of stock-market-based retirement accounts declined 6 percent, to $44,000.

But it was the implosion of the housing market that inflicted much of the pain. The value of Americans’ stake in their homes fell by 42 percent from 2007 to 2010 to just $55,000, according to the Fed.

The poorest families suffered the biggest loss of wealth from the drop in real-estate prices. But middle-class Americans rely on housing for a larger part of their net worth. For some, it accounts for just over half of their assets. That means every step downward is felt more acutely.

Rakesh Kochhar, an economist at the Pew Research Center, calls this phenomenon the “reverse-wealth effect.” As consumers watched the value of their homes rise during the boom, they felt more confident spending money even if they did not actually cash in on the gains. Now, the moribund housing market has made many Americans wary of spending, even if their losses are just on paper.

According to the Fed survey, that paper wealth — or what is officially called unrealized capital gains — shrank 11 percent to about a quarter of American’s assets.

The findings track research Kochhar released last year that showed a dramatic drop in household wealth during the recession, particularly among minorities. That study found record high disparities in wealth among Whites, Blacks and Hispanics. “It was turning the clock back quite a bit,” Kochhar said.

Although there have been some signs that the recovery has picked up steam — housing prices have begun to stabilize, and unemployment has fallen — Fed economists said those improvements largely do not change the survey results.

Gayle in MD
06-12-2012, 03:35 PM
I'd say it was the guys who crashed the economy, who set the bar high, not the guy who inherited The Great BUSH Recession.


President Obama was in office for nearly a year, before we knew how badly Bush, his blank check Congress, Greenspan and Paulson had F***ed us.

G.

Sev
06-12-2012, 03:59 PM
That wont count for much in the minds of voters who believed in hope and change that did not materialize.

Both sides of the aisle in the government are responsible. Both democrats and republicans set the stage for the economic collapse.

The government is the problem. Not the solution.

Gayle in MD
06-12-2012, 04:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That wont count for much in the minds of voters who believed in hope and change that did not materialize.

Both sides of the aisle in the government are responsible. Both democrats and republicans set the stage for the economic collapse.

The government is the problem. Not the solution. </div></div>

Government isn't the problem when the country is on it's ass!

Government is the ONLY solution, for We The People, when we're being robbed by wealthy crooks, and corrupt Republicans, who are bought by wealthy corporations to serve ONLY the interests of the CEO's who have been cleaning up at the expense of all of the rest of us!

Additionally when you say Government, to which Government do you refer? The government before George W. Bush, or the Government DURING George W. Bush?


The Government during Bill Clinton, or the Government Before Bill Clinton?

There is just no way to let Reagan, Bush and Bush, off the hook for their economic policies. All of the charts, other than the ones from Mitsey, and the AEI, including The Heritage Foundation, show that we lost revenues, lost jobs, and lost Middle Class spending power, from Repubican "Trickle Down, Econoic Policies, of spending, and failing to pay for it, and skewing taxes in favor of the wealthy, at the expense of the rest.

Additionally, every single poll I have seen, (while I admit, I do not trust Rasmucous, at all, and they never fall in line with the other polls which are averaged,) shows that Americans still blame George W. Bush, for our current economic Great Recession, Not the president!

Just saw several this week, confirming it.

G.

Sev
06-13-2012, 06:40 PM
Every administration has its blunders.
Every administration applies more laws and regulations.
And every time they do, when interfering in the free market they create unintended consequences.
Its a culmination of these unintended consequences that brought us to where we are today. Its cause and effect.
There are over 160,000 regulations on business.
Over 1 million words in the tax code.
God only knows how many laws there are on the books that seek to control individual human behavior.

The government has become an oppressive weight on our freedoms and ability operate under free market principles.

The government has its place. However it was not designed to nor capable of both micromanaging every aspect of life and allowing freedom and liberty to exist at the same time.

eg8r
06-14-2012, 02:11 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Government isn't the problem when the country is on it's ass!

</div></div>LOL, in that example government was the reason. It surely isn't the solution.

eg8r

cushioncrawler
06-14-2012, 03:36 AM
................Only roughly half of middle-class Americans remained on the same economic rung during the downturn, the Fed found. Their median net worth — the value of assets such as homes, cars and stocks minus any debt — suffered the biggest drops. The wealthiest families, by contrast, actually saw their median net worth rise slightly.........

Not exaktly.
Worth shood not be konfuzed with price.
Value shood not be konfuzed with price.
Wealth shood not be konfuzed with price.

Allso, why not look at it the other way and point out that familys with very little now dont need to pay az much to get say a house.

Getting a big house woz suppozed to get u a bigger slice of the pie -- it woznt suppozed to inkreec the overall wealth of theusofa.

Getting lots of stock woz suppozed to get u a bigger slice of the pie -- not inkreec the wealth of the usofa.

Oh, geee, liddle biddy boy's parasitik ploy didn work, dare dare, dont kry.
mac.

Gayle in MD
06-14-2012, 07:34 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Government isn't the problem when the country is on it's ass!

</div></div>LOL, in that example government was the reason. It surely isn't the solution.

eg8r </div></div>

Cherry picking again?

Clearly, that is the only way your ever read anything on this forum. Poor reading skills?

Clearly, my post points to Repiglican policies, not government, overall for cuasing this mess.

Who can write regulations to prevent banks from irrational, greedy, negligent, and corruption, and prevent them from irresponsibly gambling, with other people's money? if not for President Obama, we wuld be in a depression.

As I wrote, over and over during the run up to The Great Bush Recession, nearly a Depression, Corporations cannot be trusted to regulate themselves.

Repigliocan Trickle Down Economics, is a failed policy, which creates pre-emptive theft, taking from everyone but pre-emptively ignoring demanding the fair share that the wealthiest should pay, and destroying regulations which protect the entire country from being robbed by the wealthy top thieves.

Additionally, clearly, the recover has been blocked, by Repiglicans, the same bunch of low down liars, who caused most of our economic problems with policies of spend, spend and spend some more, and borrow to pay for it, all of it designed to promote the wealthy, at the expense of all of the reats of us, a massive re-distribution of wealth, taking from the Middle Class, to give more to the riches among us.:

And then? Boloame the other party, and obstruct the recovery ofr political gain. PIGS!:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">REPUBLICAN SNAKE-LIKE STRATEGIES COMING TO FRUITION. RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE.
by Larry “Lusciato” Krayn
06 June 2012
Blatant Minority


It was something we spoke about amidst rallies, parties, and champagne corks. We huddled confused, frightened, nervous, and cautiously optimistic in our class rooms, dinner parties, and over our weekend cocktails. Outside of our intellectual, rational confines, the world was experiencing somewhat of a hysteria.

Tea Partiers were using magic markers to write misspelled signs about the dangers of “Afro-Lenninism, Kenyan anti-colonial socialism, and the end of “America”, Future Ron Paul supporters and future Occupy Wall Street members were rejoicing, waiting for the flash of an instant where equality would reign throughout Earth, Marijuana would be made legal federally, Gay Marriage would be legalized constitutionally, and all foreign conflict would immediately be halted.

But trapped within the maximum security prisons that were our own rationality and logic, intellectual, liberal-minded people, understood that we were in for a huge undertaking, and that navigating a harsh social and political environment was going to be essential in achieving any tangible restructuring of the bad policies that had gotten us into one of the worst periods in recent national memory. Unfortunately, we were not the only ones.

Several people in the same settings, but with an ideological slant that leaned right, just as logical, just as rational, and perhaps much more cunning and ruthless, were talking about the very same things. However, with these people the mission was not to fix the ills of America, it was not to set parameters for a collaborative government that would now have to function in a world in which they were the minority (the american people had spoken), but to figure out the best possible way to win the next presidential election, to win the next congressional election, and to eventually win back the senate, house, and presidency.

These masters of equivocation may tell you the reasons behind their strategies are only meant to achieve what “is best for America” (the arrogant claim that them gaining complete control is the only possible thing good for America, even though them having that very same level of control is what steered us into this mess in the first place) But the truth is, no one really knows why power was their only aim for the better part of 4 years. Not progress, not fixing the deficit, not creating jobs, not governing. In fact, one of their biggest “achievements” was nearly bringing the entire U.S. government to a halt, and nearly defaulting on U.S. debt, potentially causing the greatest financial and economic collapse in human history.

The reasons that these people did this have been outlined in various works and have been referenced by various writers, historians, scholars, and others very recently. One of the most recent and comprehensive works on the subject has been Robert Draper’s “Ask Not What Good We Do” in which a meeting of the minds is recounted. A meeting that took place between several key republican leaders as well as former presidential candidate Newt Gingrich on the night of president Obama’s inauguration. The conclusion of the meeting was, in summary, that the Republican party must do anything and everything possible to stone-wall the Newly elected and optimistic President of the United States, even if the country suffered. The reason behind this? To paint him as a failed leader, a failed president, and someone who could not get things done.

In fact, Senate filibusters (which are measures enacted by the minority party in the senate to stall or completely stop any kind of legislation dead in its tracks if the majority party cannot attain a 60 vote super majority) Reached a Record high under the republican minority. The first year democrats controlled the senate in 07-08 there were a record number 112 filibusters in the senate. The most the democrats have ever filibustered in the same time span historically has been 58 times.

Republicans have been filibustering a multitude of President Obama’s nominees for various agencies as well. Even federal judges are being held up for their positions. As many as 16 of these judges have already been UNANIMOUSLY approved by the bi-partisan judicial committee! These judges are not permitted to work while they are waiting, and some have been waiting in excess of a year!

This does not make mention of the budget. In fact, the senate has not passed a Budget in 3 years. The reason for this is that in order for a budget to take effect, it needs that same 60 vote super-majority. Of course senate democrats cannot attain that majority while being stone-walled by every single republican in the senate (even when a few cross the aisle it is extremely hard for them to attain the needed 60)

In the house, republicans have continually shoved through vicious, heartless, unrealistic, and radical budget plans, that were sure to cause a dispute and non-surmountable filibuster in the Senate. The house walked away from deficit reduction deals on numerous occasions, due to the fact that President Obama requested basic compromise (Meaning he asked for a 4% increase in top marginal tax rate, a return to the exponential job growth years of Clinton, where the rates were the same as Obama has requested, in exchange for his cuts to entitlement programs). The House invoked a debt ceiling debate, and then blamed President Obama when the resulting credit rating downgrade of the U.S. occurred.

But, all these things must not have existed at all according to most Republicans currently taking to national media outlets with their message. According to these people, “The democratic senate has not passed a budget in 3 years” , “The President is not a good leader, because he cannot reach across the aisle and constructively work with republicans to move the country forward” “He is a failed leader because job growth is anemic” Yet the jobs created have been all private sector jobs, while public sector jobs have taken a nose dive, mainly due to republican ideology and core beliefs – which state public sector jobs should be axed. Not to mention the fact that Republicans have filibustered and defeated virtually every single Jobs bill the President has attempted to introduce, and have offered up none of their own (aside from tax cuts).

The sad thing is that several Americans are buying into this deceptive, snake-like nonsense. The Republican party for the better part of the last 4 years, has done nothing but lay groundwork for their return to power by harnessing hate, harnessing homophobia, harnessing fear of change and progress, being a constant impediment to the president no matter what he does, even if he is attempting to pass legislation traditionally championed by Republicans etc.

These people have not attempted to fix the nations ills, they have not attempted to elevate or assist the middle class, they have not attempted in the least to create any jobs or to get the economy going again. No, these people have only spread lies, hate, misinformation, and propaganda in a concerted and planned effort to win the 2012 elections.

And now all around us, right in front of our faces, everywhere, the serpentine strategies are being sprung into action. Men and women with smiling faces, posing as concerned well-meaning intellectuals are telling us that “The President has failed to lead, has failed to get things done” “We need a pragmatist, a true leader”. In reality they are reciting a perfectly planned and rehearsed mantra of deception. They have let a lust for power undermine trust int he government, and they make no apologies for doing such. We must stand together as contributing and concerned citizens, and we must make it known to our peers and fellow voters, that we are not falling for these deceitful tactics, rather we know who stands with us, and who stands for only themselves.

Dont. Tread. On. Me. ! (lol)

written by Larry “Lusciato” Krayn

</div></div>

eg8r
06-14-2012, 08:07 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cherry picking again?
</div></div>If by choosing what I want to respond to then it is what it is. America is down because of Government plain and simple. It will not be Government that gets us out.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
06-14-2012, 08:20 AM
We are in this place as a country because the government committed acts of omission, by failing to regulate banks, other lenders, Wall Street, derivatives, and the Fed, which is not part of the federal government, kept interest rates so low to blow a bubble economy after the NASDAQ and high tech bubble burst. Quite likely the Fed did this on purpose, as it both helped cause and badly worsened the Great Depression

We are also in this place because of government acts of commission, which Bush put in as policies. The familiar list. So you are right, but probably not in the way you mean.

Gayle in MD
06-14-2012, 08:23 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cherry picking again?
</div></div>If by choosing what I want to respond to then it is what it is. America is down because of Government plain and simple. It will not be Government that gets us out.

eg8r </div></div>

Without the things which government has already done to recover from The Great Bush Recession, and years of Repiglican blank check spending, warring, cutting taxes, and ignoring the warnings much in advance of the great R.E. Bubble, protecting the agressive, demonic, predatory lenders, and the Wall St. thieves, you'd be standing in a soup line right now.

Repiglican failed economic policies, which destroy or ingore appropriate Government Oversight, and regulations, put us in this mess, more than any other single thing.

To this day, they block legislation that would prevent another massive Wall St. theft, another re-distribution of the nation's wealth and economic opportunities. You are still whining about regulations, when the lack of regulating the thieves at the top, is what caused the meltdown. Some people NEVER learn anything!

Then, after years of Repiglican total control of Government, after years of warring, spending, borrowing, cutting taxes and lying, those who put us into this mess, followed up with this:


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">REPUBLICAN SNAKE-LIKE STRATEGIES COMING TO FRUITION. RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE.
by Larry “Lusciato” Krayn
06 June 2012
Blatant Minority


It was something we spoke about amidst rallies, parties, and champagne corks. We huddled confused, frightened, nervous, and cautiously optimistic in our class rooms, dinner parties, and over our weekend cocktails. Outside of our intellectual, rational confines, the world was experiencing somewhat of a hysteria.

Tea Partiers were using magic markers to write misspelled signs about the dangers of “Afro-Lenninism, Kenyan anti-colonial socialism, and the end of “America”, Future Ron Paul supporters and future Occupy Wall Street members were rejoicing, waiting for the flash of an instant where equality would reign throughout Earth, Marijuana would be made legal federally, Gay Marriage would be legalized constitutionally, and all foreign conflict would immediately be halted.

But trapped within the maximum security prisons that were our own rationality and logic, intellectual, liberal-minded people, understood that we were in for a huge undertaking, and that navigating a harsh social and political environment was going to be essential in achieving any tangible restructuring of the bad policies that had gotten us into one of the worst periods in recent national memory. Unfortunately, we were not the only ones.

Several people in the same settings, but with an ideological slant that leaned right, just as logical, just as rational, and perhaps much more cunning and ruthless, were talking about the very same things. However, with these people the mission was not to fix the ills of America, it was not to set parameters for a collaborative government that would now have to function in a world in which they were the minority (the american people had spoken), but to figure out the best possible way to win the next presidential election, to win the next congressional election, and to eventually win back the senate, house, and presidency.

These masters of equivocation may tell you the reasons behind their strategies are only meant to achieve what “is best for America” (the arrogant claim that them gaining complete control is the only possible thing good for America, even though them having that very same level of control is what steered us into this mess in the first place) But the truth is, no one really knows why power was their only aim for the better part of 4 years. Not progress, not fixing the deficit, not creating jobs, not governing. In fact, one of their biggest “achievements” was nearly bringing the entire U.S. government to a halt, and nearly defaulting on U.S. debt, potentially causing the greatest financial and economic collapse in human history.

The reasons that these people did this have been outlined in various works and have been referenced by various writers, historians, scholars, and others very recently. One of the most recent and comprehensive works on the subject has been Robert Draper’s “Ask Not What Good We Do” in which a meeting of the minds is recounted. A meeting that took place between several key republican leaders as well as former presidential candidate Newt Gingrich on the night of president Obama’s inauguration. The conclusion of the meeting was, in summary, that the Republican party must do anything and everything possible to stone-wall the Newly elected and optimistic President of the United States, even if the country suffered. The reason behind this? To paint him as a failed leader, a failed president, and someone who could not get things done.

In fact, Senate filibusters (which are measures enacted by the minority party in the senate to stall or completely stop any kind of legislation dead in its tracks if the majority party cannot attain a 60 vote super majority) Reached a Record high under the republican minority. The first year democrats controlled the senate in 07-08 there were a record number 112 filibusters in the senate. The most the democrats have ever filibustered in the same time span historically has been 58 times.

Republicans have been filibustering a multitude of President Obama’s nominees for various agencies as well. Even federal judges are being held up for their positions. As many as 16 of these judges have already been UNANIMOUSLY approved by the bi-partisan judicial committee! These judges are not permitted to work while they are waiting, and some have been waiting in excess of a year!

This does not make mention of the budget. In fact, the senate has not passed a Budget in 3 years. The reason for this is that in order for a budget to take effect, it needs that same 60 vote super-majority. Of course senate democrats cannot attain that majority while being stone-walled by every single republican in the senate (even when a few cross the aisle it is extremely hard for them to attain the needed 60)

In the house, republicans have continually shoved through vicious, heartless, unrealistic, and radical budget plans, that were sure to cause a dispute and non-surmountable filibuster in the Senate. The house walked away from deficit reduction deals on numerous occasions, due to the fact that President Obama requested basic compromise (Meaning he asked for a 4% increase in top marginal tax rate, a return to the exponential job growth years of Clinton, where the rates were the same as Obama has requested, in exchange for his cuts to entitlement programs). The House invoked a debt ceiling debate, and then blamed President Obama when the resulting credit rating downgrade of the U.S. occurred.

But, all these things must not have existed at all according to most Republicans currently taking to national media outlets with their message. According to these people, “The democratic senate has not passed a budget in 3 years” , “The President is not a good leader, because he cannot reach across the aisle and constructively work with republicans to move the country forward” “He is a failed leader because job growth is anemic” Yet the jobs created have been all private sector jobs, while public sector jobs have taken a nose dive, mainly due to republican ideology and core beliefs – which state public sector jobs should be axed. Not to mention the fact that Republicans have filibustered and defeated virtually every single Jobs bill the President has attempted to introduce, and have offered up none of their own (aside from tax cuts).

The sad thing is that several Americans are buying into this deceptive, snake-like nonsense. The Republican party for the better part of the last 4 years, has done nothing but lay groundwork for their return to power by harnessing hate, harnessing homophobia, harnessing fear of change and progress, being a constant impediment to the president no matter what he does, even if he is attempting to pass legislation traditionally championed by Republicans etc.

These people have not attempted to fix the nations ills, they have not attempted to elevate or assist the middle class, they have not attempted in the least to create any jobs or to get the economy going again. No, these people have only spread lies, hate, misinformation, and propaganda in a concerted and planned effort to win the 2012 elections.

And now all around us, right in front of our faces, everywhere, the serpentine strategies are being sprung into action. Men and women with smiling faces, posing as concerned well-meaning intellectuals are telling us that “The President has failed to lead, has failed to get things done” “We need a pragmatist, a true leader”. In reality they are reciting a perfectly planned and rehearsed mantra of deception. They have let a lust for power undermine trust int he government, and they make no apologies for doing such. We must stand together as contributing and concerned citizens, and we must make it known to our peers and fellow voters, that we are not falling for these deceitful tactics, rather we know who stands with us, and who stands for only themselves.

Dont. Tread. On. Me. ! (lol)

written by Larry “Lusciato” Krayn

</div></div>

Borrowing Diablo's excellent post. I'm sure he won't mind though. He was the one former rightie, to see the light on Repiglicans, and change his views. He doesn't live in denial, and hair splitting, and cherry picking, where you love to hang out.

G.

eg8r
06-14-2012, 09:35 AM
Yes, I am right and yes in the way I mean. When I say government I refer to both the left and right which it appears you don't so maybe that is why you can't see "the way I mean".

eg8r

Gayle in MD
06-14-2012, 11:06 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, I am right and yes in the way I mean. When I say government I refer to both the left and right which it appears you don't so maybe that is why you can't see "the way I mean".

eg8r </div></div>

LMAO!

What a crock!

G.

Sev
06-15-2012, 05:56 AM
As I said. The government is the problem. Not the solution.

Gayle in MD
06-15-2012, 10:18 AM
It certainly was, when the deregulatory happy, spending, warring, cutting taxes, outsourcing jobs, hiding money off shore, blocking negotiations for cheaper drugs for Americans big pharma payoff, creating trillion dollar entitlements, without a thought of how they were going to pay for them, giving out no bid contracts to their corporate cronies, and lying us into an illegal war, in order to throw more money at their corporate crony crooks..... all of it made possible by the crooked, blank check Repiglicans and Bush running the show!

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif


The government is NOT the problem.

The Repiglicans were the problem, and we're still trying to recover from all of their lies and failed policies.

G.

LWW
06-17-2012, 07:56 AM
In a concurrent thread you are arguing that nobody claims the private sector is hurting.

How do you explain this seeming hypocrisy?How o you explain this seeming hypocrisy?

Soflasnapper
06-17-2012, 10:25 AM
As Wittgenstein explained long ago, many of the key philosophical conundrums come about by misunderstanding how words are being used in equivocal ways when they are really different. It's a category mistake, generally-- the assumptions involved with the way the questions are framed.

When 'private sector' is referenced, it is the private corporations that are meant. Private corporate profits have returned to reach new record levels in real dollar terms, corporate profits have reached a record level of share of gdp, and private business hirings are proceeding along at a moderate if low pace.

That doesn't mean consumers and private PERSONS have seen an adequate or even much of a recovery in their net worth, their incomes, the share of the economy that goes to wages, or in terms of reaching a normal level of UE.

TWO. DIFFERENT. THINGS. Thinking, or pretending to think, they are the same is the source of your alleged confusion. Once this difference is understood, there is no contradiction.

LWW
06-18-2012, 05:24 PM
And you accused someone else of cherry picking?

Soflasnapper
06-19-2012, 11:52 AM
Not sure I did, but so what?

Asking that the definitions of words be honored is not cherry picking. Pointing out that the confusion is based on an incorrect definition isn't cherry picking, either.

And citing Wittgenstein is not cherry picking. So, not surprisingly, you have no point, and perhaps have me confused with some one else.

DiabloViejo
06-19-2012, 01:30 PM
LWW may not have a point, but he sure has a pointy head! Here he is in another of his adventures! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

http://mlegan.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/zippy_the_pinhead.jpg

cushioncrawler
06-19-2012, 05:59 PM
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/chash2/Misc/cherry.jpg

LWW
06-20-2012, 04:10 AM
Mac, I respect you because you are a fascist that admits it, unlike the cowardly lot of fascists who insist upon regurgitating the regime's talking point across this forum.

cushioncrawler
06-20-2012, 04:53 AM
Or spoon fed cherry picking.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b388/AcaSummer05/29dff34c.jpg

LWW
06-20-2012, 09:35 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When 'private sector' is referenced, it is the private corporations that are meant. Private corporate profits have returned to reach new record levels in real dollar terms, corporate profits have reached a record level of share of gdp, and private business hirings are proceeding along at a moderate if low pace. </div></div>

1 - IYHO who are these corporations? In your worldview do you see them as wealth depositories of thousands to millions of individuals ... or do you envision something the tycoon on the MONOPOLY game box?

2 - IYHO was the precipitous drop in the average families net worth not largely a product of the stock bubble bursting?

3 - IYHO why is te stock market at essentially the same level as it was in early 2008?

LWW
06-20-2012, 09:36 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or spoon fed cherry picking.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b388/AcaSummer05/29dff34c.jpg </div></div>

Is that photo from Maryland?

Soflasnapper
06-20-2012, 10:00 AM
2 - IYHO was the precipitous drop in the average families net worth not largely a product of the stock bubble bursting?

No, because average families did not hold much in the way of stocks. It was more the result of the housing bubble bursting, because it was in their homes that most average people held their sole net worth.

3 - IYHO why is te stock market at essentially the same level as it was in early 2008?

Easy question there. It's the price to earnings ratio, the P/E.

The PRICE is the level of the DJIA, or the S&P 500 index, or other broad measure of the average stock price.

The earnings are the net profits. As the net profits have fully recovered to pre-recession times, and actually, new record levels, stocks now fetch the same price as they did when their earnings were stronger, because the earnings recovered to where they were and beyond.

That's a first order answer. Second order answers include a myriad of other factors, such as that the Fed manipulates stock prices for confidence reasons, and the continuing low interest rate regime we are under encourages taking the risk of the market in order to try to get a better rate of return. Also, as the US$D becomes a safe haven, especially for the Europeans under their rolling disastrous economies, those people put some of those dollar holdings into the market for a better return than Treasuries. Lastly for this abbreviated list, companies are using their record profits which they hold in cash to repurchase their own shares, minimizing the supply of those shares in the market, and therefore, getting a better price through a reduced demand.

LWW
06-20-2012, 11:25 AM
Nobody expected a straight answer, and you lived up to those expectations.

Soflasnapper
06-20-2012, 12:58 PM
Then you cannot recognize a straight answer. Unsurprising.

Gayle in MD
06-20-2012, 01:56 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or spoon fed cherry picking.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b388/AcaSummer05/29dff34c.jpg </div></div>

Is that photo from Maryland? </div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Gayle and LWW, we all now completely understand that you two don't like each other. No real need to keep belaboring the point.

My suggestion now is to ignore each other.

Any posts from either of you pointing at the other one will result in an immediate (and very long) ban.

Admin
</span> </div></div>

LWW
06-20-2012, 05:14 PM
Be careful ... it has come to my attention that one or more members of this forum consider any use of the word "MARYLAND" o be a violation of forum rules and a personal attack.

cushioncrawler
06-20-2012, 05:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or spoon fed cherry picking.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b388/AcaSummer05/29dff34c.jpg </div></div>

Is that photo from Maryland? </div></div>That spoon woz originally straightish, then overnite it bekame bent, a bent spoon, its a mystery.
On the other hand Uri Geller woz in town.
mac.